Late Game Gunsmithing

[JoeKlesczewski]

@Stretop pointed out to me a bit ago that the crafting system is a little underdeveloped when it comes to gunsmithing. While you can assemble some stuff, all of the firearms you craft are at significant disadvantage when compared to corresponding commercial versions (unless assembled from a kit, of course).

This is, of course, by design - you're not exactly going to be able to whip up a fully-capable sniper rifle or minigun from scrap, after all. But as it stands, guns you make cannot:

1. Be rifled
2. Hold more than one round per barrel at a time
3. Be automatic (though this is, of course, currently moot because of (2))

Now, (1) is something that I don't think many people would have a problem with, so long as it required one to construct a rifling bench (example of such a thing here) and I similarly don't expect (2) to be very controversial. However, part of what I'd like feedback on is whether or not (3) should be allowed at all. Here is my rationale for why it should be:
3. Automatic weaponry is hard. However, there are certain weapons that could conceivably be made by hand by a single person given relatively simple tools and materials. Here is a video of how the automatic-fire mechanism works on an AK-47, which is one of the simplest such guns. You wouldn't be able to make an M249 or an AUG, but I don't think it's unreasonable for the player to be able to make decent-quality knockoffs of AK-47s or MAC-10s once they've reached endgame skill levels (i.e. on the order of level 9-10). From a gameplay perspective, if you're able to successfully complete these recipes, you've either focused everything into learning how to do so, in which case you should be rewarded, or you are sitting somewhere around the endgame, at which point such basic weapons are probably not useful to you, and you will be making them for trade.

The rest of what I'd like feedback on is:
1: Rifling

1. How hard should it be to make the rifling bench? I was guessing somewhere on the order of 7-ish, since the game balance document says that 10 is "professional" level.
2. How should recipes that include rifling be handled? I'm leaning towards having a recipe take a non-rifled gun, which you take apart, rifle the barrel, and put back together. This would take longer than just rifling the barrel as you make the gun, but it would probably be clearer, interface-wise. Perhaps both?

2: Magazines

1. How big should magazines for simple player-built firearms be? I was thinking that it should be less than would be had in a similar commercial weapon but since the game doesn't handle magazines explicitly, it'd be conceptually sound to give them the same capacities. On the other hand, it would also be conceptually sound to give the magazine-using simple player-built firearms reduced capacities, but then give them a more normal extended mag capacity, which means that the mod will give the gun a larger-than-normal boost.
2. Say the player makes a 9mm pipe rifle, then wants to add both rifling and a magazine. How should this be handled? You'd need to have four different versions of the same gun if done through crafting recipes, which doesn't strike me as a particularly clean way of going about things, though still doable. The only way I can see to avoid this would be to approach them like mods - perhaps a recipe for a "Rifled Pipe Barrel" and a "Makeshift Magazine"? This would require that all pipe-guns have barrel and accessory modification slots, though I don't see that being too major a problem.

3: Commercial-grade gunsmithing

1. For the higher-end gunsmithing recipes, should some manner of specialized furniture be required? A workbench with clamps and the like would probably be pretty helpful in such endeavors. This could also be used for other very precise recipes.
2. Should the result of, for instance, an AK-47 recipe be an AK-47 with all the stats and, as I referenced above, value thereof, or should it be a separate item, perhaps a "Knockoff AK-47" or something like that?
3. If it's the latter, should the knockoff have appreciably lower stats than the actual?

These aren't incredibly major changes, admittedly, but I can see them causing some balance problems if handled incorrectly.

[JoeKlesczewski]

Responding to @Stretop's comment over on issue #10742:

• But even with that I don't think it's realistic to be able to assemble, say, an M249 or an AUG. Such machines work as well as they do thanks entirely to highly precise machining techniques, which require massively complex machines which themselves require highly precise machining.

News flash! Right now it is possible to craft some firearms from parts, fabricated by 3d-printers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DconsfGsXyA
Massively complex machines? Nope, never heard about them =)

I'm not sure what your point is here - additive manufacturing setups are incredibly powerful, precise, and complex machines (especially when compared to the tools you can currently use in the game). But more relevantly, they are not currently in Cataclysm in any way, shape, or form - if the player is making a gun, they're doing so using hand tools and mechanical devices. If 3D printers ever make it into the game (which they probably will), they will be as useful as (non-vehicle) refrigerators are, which is "not at all, until more systems get added to the game".

[Stretop]

My point is that if today we can do such things as printed guns (even if now they are not very powerful), by the day of Cataclysm (with CBMs, power armors, fusion-powered rifles and works) it is entirely plausible that there will be technologies for personal fabrication of complex mechanisms, including firearms. And 3d-printers can be installed into vehicle (like forge and wielding rigs right now) and used much in the way forges are used (untill better system is developed).

The real challenge then will be to get your hands on blueprints for desired items and program and operate fabricator correctly to get desired item.

[JoeKlesczewski]

You are glossing over a great many things:

1. Most of the advancements that are exhibited between today and Cataclysm's setting are focused around metals and power sources, not plastics, due to the highly militaristic mindset which characterized the years leading up to the game. 3D-printed firearms are all well and good, but if you're using plastic that gets softer when heated (which you need to do in order to print with it), what happens when the barrel heats up from the bullet's exhaust, let alone the friction the bullet causes? Currently, the answer to those questions is "The plastic softens and deforms".
2. All these problems are magnified greatly when it comes to machine guns and sniper rifles, both of which stressing even our best materials to their limits, let alone printable plastics.
3. A 3D printer is far, far, far more complicated than either a forge or a welding rig. You can't just hook it up to a power source and feed it a "blueprint" - you would need to use a computer with the correct drivers to control the thing, as well as either get exactly the correct file or make the model yourself. All of this would require the implementation of a number of very large, very complex systems to the game, at which point the proposal I made this issue for has turned into what would probably be a multi-month project.

[Stretop]

I am not glossing over things - i am getting to them =)

• Most of the advancements that are exhibited between today and Cataclysm's setting are focused around metals and power sources

Exacly! And who said that there will not be any high-powered fabricators that deal with metals instead of plastics? Think about it: supply depots that produce arms and ammo as needed unstead of having to stockpile them in their final forms. This is awesome! Riot police, infantry, tanks, artillery - anyone can be supplied from such depots for any required tactic.
Of course such fabricators should be easily transportable via vehicles for quick deployment and redeployment of such supply depots.

• A 3D printer is far, far, far more complicated than either a forge or a welding rig

And "Repair Nanobots CBM" is far, far, far more complicated than either a "Power Storage CBM" or "Battery System CBM". Solution: make it "special loot" for specific locations.

[JoeKlesczewski]

Metal doesn't work for the types of printers you're thinking of. I don't mean the tech's not there yet, but that from a conceptual level metals do not work due to not having the properties that make thermoplastics well-suited to extrusion-based additive manufacturing processes.

Look, I don't want to sound dismissive, but all I'm hearing from you is that these things would be cool if they existed. The problem is that Cataclysm is significantly "harder" than most sci-fi, especially when it comes to manufacturing. We can't just say, "Well, here's a fabricator - it fabricates stuff." From the perspective of lore, balance, and believability alike, such a machine just doesn't work.

[Stretop]

• Metal doesn't work for the types of printers you're thinking of.

I am not thinking of printers at all, actually. They were simply an example of present day "personal fabrication device" concept. What I am thinking of are different types of fabricators working with metal, be it nanofabrication or simple minituarized robotic fabrication. Either of these is perfectly plausible.

1. Nanofabrication of inert, inorganic matter is by orders of magnitude simplier than repairing living body "on the fly". And yet we have "Repair Nanobots CBM". What does this mean? This means that in the world of Cataclysm there is nanotech advanced enough for this type of machine.

2. Skitterbots and manhacks demonstrate, that robotics of cataclysmic future is very advanced as well.

• but all I'm hearing from you is that these things would be cool if they existed

Then I am not communicating my thoughts clear enough. I see.

• The problem is that Cataclysm is significantly "harder" than most sci-fi, especially when it comes to manufacturing.

I know how "hard" Cataclysm exactly is. And I think that you are overestimating this hardness =)

• We can't just say, "Well, here's a fabricator - it fabricates stuff."

We have alredy said "well, those are mutagens - they mutate stuff", then we said "well, those are CBMs, they... bionicing?... stuff". And do not get me started on manufactoring: "look at those spare parts from some terminals, now look on this soldering iron, now look at those part again - you now have internally mounted laser". Or this: "look at this vacutainer and those spare parts from some terminals, now look on this soldering iron, now look at those part again - you now have an energy weapon".

And how "hard" exactly are lightning-shooting zombies and bionics? Real electricity does not work this way. Fusion power (I am looking at you, fusion rifles and armcannons) also does not work that way.

I can go on and on about how Cataclysm is not really "hard", but i think you get the idea, so instead I am going to propose another concept of metal-fabricator:

Imagine: active zone of fabricator consists of container with required metals dissolved in some kind of photoreactive acidic solvent. Fabricating is done by focusing several lasers in needed point, which forces metal to settle on needed points of substrate or already settled metal. And so, voxel by voxel, needed item is constructed.

• hearing from you is that these things would be cool if they existed

Well, actually I was trying to demonstrate why would military want to create such thing in the first place.

[KA101]

Design doc already rules out machining an automatic action. When we said that won't work, we meant it.

hard SF

DDA's mutagens run on B-movie science, as do the giant critters and probably the triffids. Pretty sure the blobs & zombies wouldn't work either in hard reality, and though mind-altering fungi do indeed exist IRL (the fungus in-game was originally Cordyceps + Blob) they don't have hiveminds or any other sort of telepathy (they're just very tightly evolved).

Quite a bit of that is Lovecraftian/Mythos where science is Different elsewhere, and radiation's having the option on mutagenic properties is because nobody seems to sell many comic books about Cancer Man (unless it's an X-Files line).

[Stretop]

• DDA's mutagens run on B-movie science

Okay, then on what science do energy weapons (laser, fusion, lightning) run?

• science is Different elsewhere

But aside from mutagens and teleports all Cataclysm technology seems to be human enough (even all these CBMs), which means that science is marching on and really fast at that. Specifically - nanotechnology and robotics. Specifically - its military applications.

[JoeKlesczewski]

Ah, I don't recall ever seeing such a design document - nothing in the docs directory seems to fit, anyway. Could you point me towards that? It sounds like it would be a great help.

And I suppose I stand corrected on DDA being hard sci-fi. I guess I was thinking more of how detailed the world is, rather than how hard the science is.

Either way, do you have any thoughts on the points regarding rifling and magazines?

[Stretop]

Well, when I think about hand-made rifled magazine-fed firearm - I think of something like Spencer repeating rifle rather than something automatic. And while adding rifling is comparatively trivial, it may be easier to just craft new firearm than redesign existing one for magasines.

[KA101]

Ah, I don't recall ever seeing such a design document - nothing in the docs directory seems to fit, anyway. Could you point me towards that? It sounds like it would be a great help.

Linked from the forums: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5560.0

[JoeKlesczewski]

Thanks - will give that a read.

[kevingranade]

One meta-point over all of this. This is not a game about manufacturing, this is a game about scavenging. This is the dominant issue with all plans of this kind, no matter whether it's maybe feasible to make some of these things, it would be simply absurd to do so when there's a massive surplus of them there for the taking at orders of magnitude less effort.

Now, (1) is something that I don't think many people would have a problem with, so long as it required one to construct a rifling bench

Go figure, I'm not most people.

and I similarly don't expect (2) to be very controversial.

Unfortunately it's not only controversial, it's right out.

However, part of what I'd like feedback on is whether or not (3) should be allowed at all. Here is my rationale for why it should be:
3. Automatic weaponry is hard. However, there are certain weapons that could conceivably be made by hand by a single person given relatively simple tools and materials. Here is a video of how the automatic-fire mechanism works on an AK-47, which is one of the simplest such guns. You wouldn't be able to make an M249 or an AUG, but I don't think it's unreasonable for the player to be able to make decent-quality knockoffs of AK-47s or MAC-10s once they've reached endgame skill levels (i.e. on the order of level 9-10).

It doesn't much matter how simple the action looks, the issue is it is staggeringly difficult to MAKE without the proper tools and a very capable supply chain. Even if you could precisely copy the dimensions of all the parts, if the materials are wrong the thing is going to jam and/or break immediately if you try to fire it. The materials ARE wrong, because there is no reasonable source for them.

1: Rifling

How hard should it be to make the rifling bench? I was guessing somewhere on the order of 7-ish, since the game balance document says that 10 is "professional" level.

Something like that is reasonable, but see below.

How should recipes that include rifling be handled? I'm leaning towards having a recipe take a non-rifled gun, which you take apart, rifle the barrel, and put back together. This would take longer than just rifling the barrel as you make the gun, but it would probably be clearer, interface-wise. Perhaps both?

You're missing a major point of manufacturing a rifled barrel, which is even having a barrel that will accept rifling. The (legacy) pipe gun recipes gloss over this, but if we start making crafting of quality guns a reality, we'd need to start paying attention to steel quality, and you'd most likely need to make the barrel yourself, which I don't believe is remotely as simple an operation as rifling one. If you're going to make an argument from a realism standpoint, don't gloss over important things like this. My stance opposing allowing the player to craft modern guns is based on the entire process, not one or two pieces of that process.

2: Magazines

How big should magazines for simple player-built firearms be? I was thinking that it should be less than would be had in a similar commercial weapon but since the game doesn't handle magazines explicitly, it'd be conceptually sound to give them the same capacities. On the other hand, it would also be conceptually sound to give the magazine-using simple player-built firearms reduced capacities, but then give them a more normal extended mag capacity, which means that the mod will give the gun a larger-than-normal boost.

Like with real magazines, it mostly depends on the construction of said magazine. If we're talking revolver-style, it's somewhere in the 4-10 range, if it's a pipe magazine, it depends on barrel length. If it's a box magazine, it's much less limited and mostly depends on how unwieldy you're willing to make your gun. In the extreme upper echelons of capacity you have drum and cylindrical magazines.
The problem is all of these except revolver style require the gun itself to have an action that can feed from the magazine, and that is far, far more complicated than the magazine itself (except maybe helical cylinder magazines, those suckers are weird). It's not the magazine that's the limiting factor, but the action.

3: Commercial-grade gunsmithing

For the higher-end gunsmithing recipes, should some manner of specialized furniture be required? A workbench with clamps and the like would probably be pretty helpful in such endeavors. This could also be used for other very precise recipes.

If by gunsmithing you mean making a gun, we're talking an entire building full of specialized equipment, not just one or two pieces.

[Griffinhart]

One thing to consider on the point of making automatic weapons out of semi-automatic weapons is bump firing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRWDA-6ATGQ

[Stretop]

• This is not a game about manufacturing, this is a game about scavenging.

This game is about both, because you really cannot do one without the other. Without scavenging you would not have resources for manufacturing, and without manufacturing you would not have many things beyond very basics.
Also, consider this: survivor survived his first several weeks. He have all food and water supply he would ever need. Why would he want to keep scavenging? Well at first game was exactly like this. Do you remember, what was done next?
I will tell you: vehicles was implemented. Fully manufacturable, constructable, customizable vehicles. How is that for "not a game about manufacturing"? Did that kill scavenging? Nope. It intesified scavenging, because you would need a lot of resouces, if you are going to construct vehicle worthy the name.

• no matter whether it's maybe feasible to make some of these things, it would be simply absurd to do so when there's a massive surplus of them there for the taking at orders of magnitude less effort

Again: vehicles. Avaiability of "massive surplus of them there for the taking at orders of magnitude less effort" does not stop people from constructing their own deathmobiles from scratch. Why? Because there are people who gain perverted pleasure fron creating something themselves unstead of hoping that they will luck out with mapgen RNG.

• If by gunsmithing you mean making a gun, we're talking an entire building full of specialized equipment, not just one or two pieces.

Nope. (points at NX-17 charge rifle, finger-mounted laser and alloy plating CBMs) Do you realize, how much precision machinery you would need to create something like this in real life? And yet in game you only ever need that wonderous "soldering iron".

• The materials ARE wrong, because there is no reasonable source for them.

Oh, but there are many reasonable sources for them. Look at city map - they are marked with red carets =) It is merely a question of having correct tools for recyling used materials.

• One thing to consider on the point of making automatic weapons out of semi-automatic weapons is bump firing.

So you can waste more ammunition and attract more zeds via abysmal accuracy? =)

[Stretop]

(Finished reading design document.)
Enlightening reading.

However, from where I look, advanced fabrication capabilities fit perfectly into Influence and Transcendence stages of Game Progress.

Also, can I add some comments directly into that google-doc?

[kevingranade]

If I understand bump firing properly, that would be a modification to a
semi-auto gun to make it full-ish auto, as such that would be fine as
you're leveraging pre-cataclysm engineering to make it happen instead of
manufacturing something from scratch.

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

Bump firing doesn't require any sort of modifications to the gun itself; it's just a particular way of holding the gun while you fire it. Nobody I've ever seen do it could hit anything smaller than the broad side of a barn with it, but in close range it might be useful.

[Griffinhart]

So you can waste more ammunition and attract more zeds via abysmal accuracy? =)

I never said bump-firing was good, just that it's a thing that exists to make a semi-automatic weapon behave like a fully-automatic one. And further, doesn't CDDA have a gyroscopic stabilizer weapon mod? Y'know, a completely fictional device (at least, in the way that it works in CDDA, where it just gets slapped onto a side-rail or something) that reduces recoil?

[Stretop]

That device shouldn't help here: its is supposed to reduce recoil from weapon vibration, and bump-firing recoil exists due to weapon-jerking by shooter himself.

• I never said bump-firing was good, just that it's a thing that exists to make a semi-automatic weapon behave like a fully-automatic one.

And most probably being pain to code and not seeing much use due to it being not simply "not-good" but actively harmful for the situation in which most survivors could even consider such tactic. Against living beings it could have worked (IRL) - they would try to find cover and not chase you. Against zeds? It would only make situation worse. Much worse.

[Griffinhart]

its is supposed to reduce recoil from weapon vibration

And where, pray tell, does it say that? e: To be clear, the mod description only says "vibration", not specifically "recoil from weapon vibration". "Vibration" in the generic sense can mean - and be - a lot of things.

bump-firing recoil exists due to weapon-jerking by shooter himself

No? On a proper bump-fire stock, you just apply consistent forward pressure on the receiver while keeping your trigger finger still. Ideally, the gun essentially fires itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvLt8-Wf7r0 The recoil is from, as all recoil is from, the energy of a discharged round.

most probably being pain to code

Uh. CDDA already had a weapon mod that could give weapons burst fire mode (which was actually a bug that got fixed; it's only supposed to increase the burst size of weapons that can already burst fire, not enable semi-auto-only weapons to burst fire). Tack on a huge recoil/dispersion penalty, and that's basically a bump fire stock mod.

Against zeds? It would only make situation worse. Much worse.

I don't see how being able to mag-dump into a zed (or tight-packed group of zeds) at close-quarters is a bad thing compared to not being able to do that.

e: And if you're going to argue the utility of automatic fire, then considering the mechanics of CDDA, auto-fire is only good for getting off more than 1 shot in a given turn. CDDA doesn't implement suppression mechanics, so burst firing is purely for the DPS increase (and/or convenience, if you've got a decent firearms skill and a weapon with good damage, as it allows you to kill multiple things in a single fire action, reducing the number of keypresses you have to go through).

[Rail-Runner]

I have just found an image of a simple auto-fire mechanism which is used in STEN Mk. II and in nearly all automatic firearms which aren't mass-produced. Here it is: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/StenmkII_animation.gif
Also, here is the image of the most simple automatic firearm which I found: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Pistolet_maszynowy_KIS%2C_Muzeum_Or%C5%82a_Bia%C5%82ego.jpg

I don't know much about gunsmithing, so what I said below may be wrong.

What we would need for making this is probably the following:

1. A forge and tools required to use it for making the parts out of metal. I think that simply a pipe or a spring won't do, because you would need them to match precisely. However, if for some reason you could use any springs, pipes etc., then this is not needed.
2. Something to prevent the part you're currently working on from shaking, because this is a precise work.
3. Some specialized tools. A gunsmith repair kit would do the trick, probably.
4. A specialized book to learn the recipe. It is extremely unlikely that a survivor can figure out on their own how to make this mechanism.
5. Some steel to forge necessary parts.

[narc0tiq]

That looks feasible, but possibly with a fairly high chance of mechanical
failure? Looks like it's got all kinds of springs and rods and things.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Darkyhard notifications@github.com wrote:

I have just found an image of a simple auto-fire mechanism which is used
in STEN Mk. II and in nearly all automatic firearms which aren't
mass-produced. Here it is:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/StenmkII_animation.gif
Also, here is the image of the most simple automatic firearm which I
found:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Pistolet_maszynowy_KIS%2C_Muzeum_Or%C5%82a_Bia%C5%82ego.jpg

I don't know much about gunsmithing, so what I said below may be wrong.

What we would need for making this is probably the following:

1. A forge and tools required to use it for making the parts out of
   metal. I think that simply a pipe or a spring won't do, because you would
   need them to match precisely. However, if for some reason you could use any
   springs, pipes etc., then this is not needed.
2. Something to prevent the part you're currently working on from
   shaking, because this is a precise work.
3. Some specialized tools. A gunsmith repair kit would do the trick,
   probably.
4. A specialized book to learn the recipe. It is extremely unlikely
   that a survivor can figure out on their own how to make this mechanism.
5. Some steel to forge necessary parts.

—
Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#10787 (comment)
.

[Stretop]

"Vibration" in the generic sense can mean - and be - a lot of things.

In gunsmithing it means repeated shockwaves originating from gunpowder (or other ammunition explosives) detonation and spreading through weapon.

On a proper bump-fire stock, you just apply consistent forward pressure on the receiver while keeping your trigger finger still.

Which merely means that you are jerking weapon through elasticity of your tendons rather than action of your muscules. Jerking is still jerking. If gun itself is not held in place - gyroscopic action will not help.

I don't see how being able to mag-dump into a zed (or tight-packed group of zeds) at close-quarters is a bad thing compared to not being able to do that.

Really?

1. You waste a lot of ammunition. It is bad, bad, BAD thing.
2. You create a lot of noise. It is another bad, bad, BAD thing.
3. You empty you magazine and have to waste time to reload. It would have been a non-issue if that was the last zed around, but if this was the last zed around - why would you want to use such mode of firing?
4. For amusement let's presume that you are succesful in killing that one zed. What is next? You are left with one dead zed, empty magazine, much less ammunition and a lot zeds around alerted about your presence.
5. For real, though, you are not going to kill zed with that. For starters this mode of fire is feasible only with weak firearms. Strong ones can kill most zeds with one-two shots or have actual full-auto. And if you are shooting rounds that are individually weak and at the same time have high chance to miss - theory of probabilities dictate that you are not going to kill that zed.

With pack of zeds it is not bad - it is straight suicide. Now they all know where you are, none of them are killed and you are left with empty magazine, less ammunition and one turn worth less space between you and them.

[Griffinhart]

In gunsmithing it means repeated shockwaves originating from gunpowder (or other ammunition explosives) detonation and spreading through weapon.

So what you're saying, then, is that recoil is from the firing of the weapon. Gee, that's almost exactly what I said. Why are you even arguing this point?

Which merely means that you are jerking weapon

No? You are holding still. The weapon is recoiling back and forth in your hands.

You waste a lot of ammunition. It is bad, bad, BAD thing.

If you're using full-auto fire in any situation, presumably ammo is not an issue, or not an immediate issue. Shooting off a lot of bullets when you don't already have a stockpile of bullets is dumb whether you're doing it in full or semi-auto.

You create a lot of noise. It is another bad, bad, BAD thing.

So use a suppressor.

You empty you magazine and have to waste time to reload.

And how is this not a problem for literally any weapon with limited magazine sizes? It's not like semi-automatic fire magically gives you unlimited ammo.

but if this was the last zed around - why would you want to use such mode of firing

Because it's faster than mashing f a bunch of times.

empty magazine

Except that you're not, because CDDA explicitly does not have a way to dump your entire magazine. Have you actually ever fired an in-game gun on automatic? You're limited to burst_size number of bullets fired in a given turn when using a weapon in automatic.

For real, though, you are not going to kill zed with that

Except that I have. Are you somehow saying that my gameplay experience is fake?

With pack of zeds it is not bad - it is straight suicide

No, it's not. I've cleared out packs with automatic weapon fire before, because in CDDA, if you kill a zed with a burst, and there are still shots remaining in that burst, you will automatically target the next viable thing to shoot. (This has, for me, resulted in lots and lots of dead dogs. They really need to learn to stay away from me.)

You are trying to rationalize away bump-firing from a real-life perspective. CDDA is not real life. Account for game mechanics, not how things actually work.

[Stretop]

If you're using full-auto fire in any situation, presumably ammo is not an issue, or not an immediate issue.

We are not talking about full-auto fire, we are talking about bump-fire. And nature of bump-fire is such that all your bullets after the first one will most probably fly far away from intended target =)
Yes, full-auto in less ammo-effective than aimed shots, but compared to both of them bump-fire is so inaccurate that it is just wasteful.

And how is this not a problem for literally any weapon with limited magazine sizes?

You get more zeds killed and less bullets wasted between reloads. With bump-fire you get much less zeds killed and much more bullets wasted between reloads.

Because it's faster than mashing f a bunch of times.

If this is your problem - it is an issue about interface, not game mechanics. And it should be solved via changes in interface, not game mechanics.

Have you actually ever fired an in-game gun on automatic? You're limited to burst_size number of bullets fired in a given turn when using a weapon in automatic.

We are not talking about full-auto fire, we are talking about bump-fire. "In-game gun on automatic" is irrelevant

Except that I have. Are you somehow saying that my gameplay experience is fake?

We are not talking about full-auto fire, we are talking about bump-fire. And it is not implemented yet. Now please, tell me how exactly you have killed something in game with not implemented game mechanic.

No, it's not. I've cleared out packs with automatic weapon fire before,

...
We are not talking about full-auto fire, we are talking about bump-fire. Your experience with "automatic weapon fire" is irrelevant.

CDDA is not real life.

Read design document. It says: "The things in the game that exist in the real world should act like their real-world counterparts;"

You are trying to rationalize away bump-firing from a real-life perspective.

And you are trying to substitute points about buck-fire with points about auto-fire. Know the difference.

[KA101]

Use case for "I need autofire NOW": inbound hulk, three or less tiles away, gun's loaded, you're at half HP but the hulk's only down to 75% or so. It hasn't SMAAASSHH!ed anyone yet and is therefore likely primed to send you flying.

If bumping the gun damages it or risks jamming, well, you'll deal with that if you're still alive tonight. And if the hulk connects, the condition of your weapon and ammo supply ain't gonna matter.

As for the rest of it, meh.

[Stretop]

How much armor does that hulk have?

[KA101]

If you don't know, but your life depends on it not taking a swing at you, best to overkill it. (I didn't specify what you're using, either.)

[Stretop]

I am implying that small firearms would not bring down that hulk anyway (many weak shots are easily deflected) and strong ones, again, can do it with either one-two shots (like more powerful shotguns and hunting rifles) or already have full-auto (like assault rifles).

And how many people even know about that buck-fire in the first place? I think you must know about it to try to pull that off. And somehow I doubt that when you are facing hulk you are going to stop, contemplate on your situation, change handling of your weapon... Hulk is not going to wait for you to do all that, you know =)

[JoeKlesczewski]

Well, it appears that in my power-cable-enforced absence this topic was active

Responding to @kevingranade's post:
First up, I'd like to echo @Stretop's sentiments regarding the game being about both surviving and manufacturing - while you start with the former, that doesn't preclude that latter, and indeed the former becomes the latter given enough time. And I'd like to add that when NPCs are better developed and factions are implemented, the player will definitely want to manufacture complex stuff from simple stuff, whether to resell or just to make use of what they can get.

Secondly and regarding the rifling proposal, I'd like to point out that all I was proposing for it was to be able to rifle the pipe-guns' barrels. As it stands, they are effectively muskets with modern firing mechanisms, so logically one could then rifle them to be rifles with modern firing mechanisms. If we ever did allow the player to produce commercial-quality guns, then it would probably require the rifling bench, but my point was more that rifling is not a terribly difficult task that can be (and was in real life, long ago) done by a single person, one barrel at a time.

Thirdly and regarding magazines, I don't think that helical magazines would be realistic to hand-craft, if only because making a helix out of metal without specialized tools would be... hard, to say the least. Your point about the complexity of feeding from the magazine in the first place is also well-taken. Revolver-style mechanisms would be much easier to make, and they'd bypass the capacity question in a good way by having a non-upgradable capacity that would be significantly lower than commercial weapons of comparable types.

Fourthly and regarding crafting commercial-grade guns, you are significantly overestimating how difficult these things are to make. An AK-47 can quite feasibly be made by hand (with appropriate hand tools and forge, of course) from bog-standard steel (and I do mean bog-standard - as in, metal the player could conceivably make, with the right setup), due it large part to the fact that it was specifically designed to be cheaply and easily made. I'm not sure I understand your objection regarding one needing a supply chain to make a commercial-grade weapon - you're only making one, so why do you need the parts lined up to make a bunch more?

With that out of the way, regarding bump-firing I'd like to point out that we already have melee styles that one learns (and thereby unlocks) over time - could we leverage a similar system for firing styles? In the firing screen one can choose to aim to varying degrees at whatever the cursor is pointing at, getting accuracy bonuses the more one aims. Similarly, I could see an option that would appear once read about to bump-fire your weapon (assuming your weapon can actually be bump-fired, of course) - it'd be a bit of a desperation move for when you really can't let that zombie take another action or for when you have nothing stronger than a 9mm but are staring down a charging hulk at close quarters, but I could certainly see myself using it sometimes.

[kevingranade]

The first point is irrelevant, the game is about scavenging by design,
arguments that we must add more manufacturing because there are already
manufacturing-like elements are pointless.
My point is that the existing 'pipe' guns are already stretching realism
past the breaking point, so no, I don't agree that we can 'call them
muskets' and then act as if they were for the purposes of further
manufacturing.
As for 'bog standard steel', as per 'no manufacturing', you don't even have
that, what you have is random scrap metal.

[JoeKlesczewski]

Sorry, I guess I misspoke a bit - I wasn't referring to the fact that you can already manufacture some stuff in-game, but rather that scavenging and manufacturing are conceptually the same thing. If I'm scavenging wires from a Game Boy in order to make a light strip then I'm manufacturing a light strip. Eventually, I don't even need to do that - I could instead take a chunk of copper or steel and turn it into wires. You could even argue that farming is "manufacturing" in the strictest sense of the word - when you farm, you are taking some raw material (seeds) and putting it through some process (planting/growing) in order to change it into some manner of product (whatever it is you are growing).

Furthermore, the design document that @KA101 linked above outlines where this fits into the game when it talks of influence and transcendence - how can you transcend the world and change it into something new if you are still reliant on parts of the old one?

Regarding the pipe-guns, I don't see how they're stretching realism - they're literally just old-style muskets that use cartridges instead of loose powder or percussion caps. If you have a pipe of the right size, then it's just a matter of shaping some metal into the parts needed for the hammer mechanism. If a lone craftsman hundreds of years ago was able to make a musket using only hand-powered tools, then I don't see how the player can't do the same if they have the know-how.

Regarding your last line, you are referring to scrap metal which you can (and, in the game, do) melt down to make other things. But even simpler than that, the player has access to steel pipes, steel plates, and sheet steel. With these, the player could (for instance) forge plates into pipes of a given diameter and then weld them together. I'm not saying that this would be amateur-level stuff, but given that the skills system goes right up to professional levels I don't think it's out of the player's reach.

[Stretop]

Furthermore, the design document that @KA101 linked above outlines where this fits into the game when it talks of influence and transcendence - how can you transcend the world and change it into something new if you are still reliant on parts of the old one?

This. Exactly this. Pure scavenging limits and dooms you to try recreate small pockets of old world unstead of creating new world; and it is expicitly said in design document that Cataclysm is irreversible and eventually "you truly leave you pre-Cataclysm life behind". You cannot leave something behind if you are still grasping at parts of it.

Also, consider factions: they and their struggles with new world and with each other will require enormous amouts of resources. Are they expected to survive on scaveging as well? If so - they will strip-scavege this world pretty quickly. And what they are going to do when this happens?

As for 'bog standard steel', as per 'no manufacturing', you don't even have that, what you have is random scrap metal.

We really need more detailed materials system, as was mentioned in the design document. "Random scrap metal" argument is just silly. Is is in such condition exactly because game itself make no difference between scrap lead, scrap iron, scrap steel, scrap copper and so on. Survivor is not so brain-dead as to be uncapable to discern lead and steel or steel and copper and so on.

Also if you insist on special "weapon-grade" steel - you are always welcome to melt down one firearm to gain material to craft another.

[kevingranade]

As I've said before, once there is a working system for NPC factions, it
makes sense for them to do some manufacturing, but not the player.

[Stretop]

makes sense for them to do some manufacturing, but not the player.

But why? What is that they have and player cannot gain?

[JoeKlesczewski]

Another thing regarding the idea of having separate "weapons-grade" steel - the steel found in-game is most likely 4140-grade steel, since that is used everywhere from bicycle and automotive frames to structural tubing. This is sometimes know as "ordinance steel" due to being something of a de facto standard for high-wear firearm components, such as the barrel. Some cutting-edge modern firearms instead use 4150-grade steel, but they are decidedly in the minority there.

[KA101]

But why? What is that [factions] have and player cannot gain?

Numbers : there are more than one Critter (mutants/borgs/bots represent!) in the faction, so they can handle multiple projects and/or cooperate on one. Several tasks that are extremely difficult for a lone PC, and therefore require rather high skill levels, can be done much more quickly and easily by a group.

• Counter: the PC could recruit & grow xyr own faction; that's provided in the faction window. At this point, you'd probably have an executive officer/sergeant/other manager type who looks after the folks and basically handles the same roles as a non-player faction point-of-contact. Functionally, same thing but more agreeable and likely much more dependent.

Facilities : A faction can use its numbers to keep a significant manufacturing or other facility (power plant, blast furnace, etc) running whilst still being capable of keeping its members fed, rested, etc. The PC might be able to look after a facility but would then sacrifice time otherwise used for adventuring, etc, and DDA is not Factory Simulator 2048, Post-Apocalypse Pack.

Off-Camera : Frankly, making the same crafting system that was designed for cooking one's meals and sharpening sticks (and has been expanded to rather amazing effect) suffice for realistically smelting metal would be a pain in the arse. It's much more practical for our purposes to let the process simply disappear resources of one type and grant resources of another after a delay (during which time you are Elsewhere, and not hovering over the process) than to rebuild crafting/construction from the ground up.

Realism : Folks have been complaining that PCs get too powerful and devolve into the same boring demideity, given early success and avoidance of random/daft deaths. Faction-based craft-handling (division of labor) would permit players to hand off some work to NPCs, lessening the current need to be omni-capable, and possibly permitting some introduction of total skill caps.

[Stretop]

Good points, but still:
Numbers : cooperation really needed when you mass-produce something (like medieval manufactory), but where are you going to use it in personal-scale projects?

Facilities : those are good for creating advanced resouces (like refining metals from ore or assembling electronic components) that survivor can buy from the facton, but what else? What finished goods they are going to produce and why those same good cannot be created by survivor himself from the same resources?

Off-Camera :" It's much more practical for our purposes to let the process simply disappear resources of one type and grant resources of another after a delay" - and this (or something like this) is already done with charcoal kiln. Why not create more tools with the same concept for using both by factions and by player? There are voices for automatized programmable tools, and since survivor already can create turrets and manhacks - I do not think that survivor crafting robotized workbench is that of a stretch.

Realism : "demideities" are more of a result of "all power for no price" design of many in-game elements. It has nothing to do with manufacturing per se. I have some ideas to couter it, but they are quite raw. I will post them on forums as I finish refine them.

[Barhandar]

Numbers and Facilities : Manufacturing a firearm whole (barring AK-47, which you can make working, if really unreliable, knockoffs off from a shovel) isn't a "personal-scale project". It needs good quality steel and a lot of machines to work it - refractory crucibles¹, extruders², lathes, rifling benches, and for automatic action, all of these need to have very tight allowances. To get all that machinery, you need to invest a lot of time - either for finding an unscavenged manufactory, or for making them one by one, with many iterations until desired precision is achieved - more if everything was made from scratch and not scavenged.
The more people there is, the less absolute time it requires per person-hour. And if it takes way too much time, it's efficient to use factions instead of forcing players to expend the time, even if it doesn't require player attention.

¹ What we have now is heating, at most, not smelting.
² Go on, make a gun with barrel that is a spiral sheet or curled one, I dare you. It'll explode in your face.

[Stretop]

It needs good quality steel

It was already said by @QuantumInvictus that

Another thing regarding the idea of having separate "weapons-grade" steel - the steel found in-game is most likely 4140-grade steel, since that is used everywhere from bicycle and automotive frames to structural tubing. This is sometimes know as "ordinance steel" due to being something of a de facto standard for high-wear firearm components, such as the barrel.

refractory crucibles

We already have crucibles. And judging by the fact that you can craft deathmobile from random lumps of steel - we have smelting, not merely heating

extruders

Judging by the fact that you can craft wire from scrap metal - forges seems to incorporate metal-extruding faculty by default.

lathes, rifling benches

Should be perfectly craftable and mountable on vehicle.

and for automatic action, all of these need to have very tight allowances

We can craft auto-targeting turrets. I would say we have sufficiently tight allowances =)

To get all that machinery, you need to invest a lot of time - either for finding an unscavenged manufactory, or for making them one by one, with many iterations until desired precision is achieved - more if everything was made from scratch and not scavenged.

Compared to building of megadeathmobiles from scratch? Not a problem at all =)

forcing players to expend the time

No one is forcing players to do anything beyond basic survival. This is what called low intensity and written down is design document. To craft something or to scavenge it is the choice that player must be able to make himself and game should provide him with such choice.