Add the ability to manipulate the position of enemy monsters through a "push" command

[GlyphGryph]

Add the ability for a player to "push" adjacent monsters.

The player then selects the monster they wish to push. At lower levels, this immediately begins the action, to push the monster a space away from the player.

On success: "You shove the monster back." or a variant thereof.

A pushed monster will immediately be moved one space, and has a chance of being knocked down depending on the success of the push and the mskill of the monster.

The success of the push should be based on the characters unarmed skill (a basic to-hit unarmed attack) and the difference between the strength of the pushing character and the size of the target (to determine whether or not the push is successful). Pushing a regular zombie should be easy, but a bear or hulk should be far more difficult.

A very successful to hit roll means the player does a kick instead of a push, which usually has the same mechanical effect but does damage. Against smaller enemies such as squirrels, however, this can send the creature multiple tiles.

On success with damage: "You kick the monster away from you," or a variant thereof.

At higher levels of skill players may choose to WHERE to push the monster to. At lv4, the options are not just straight back, but back diagonally. At lv7, they include the spaces directly to the side of the monster. At lv10, they include all three spaces on the opposite side of the player from the monster. However, the check becomes more difficult for pushes that are not straight back, and more difficult still for pushes to behind the player.

On success with damage, diagonal: "Your spinning kick sends the monster staggering to the side"
On success without damage, diagonal: "You shove the monster out of the way."
On success without damage, reverse: "Ducking to the side, you pull the monster past you, sending it flying."
On success with damage, reverse: "You deliver a devestating roundhouse kick, sending the monster flying past you."

If any push would send the monster into a solid object, it takes damage instead and remains where it is, with the added message tail: "into the object, leaving it shaken."

If a push would send it into a trap, the trap is triggered and the tail message is added: "right into the trap"

Knowledge of Judo gives a significant bonus to this ability, and gives the player the full push direction options from the getgo.

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[GlyphGryph]

If anyone who wants to implement this needs it, I'll get more actual numbers.

[kevingranade]

Really nice, I particularly like the different levels of success.
So the UI would be at low levels (when
straight-line pushing is the only option), and
or instead would it pop up a "push in what direction?" menu?
I'm thinking maybe the prompt is better, to leave it clear that it's a bit
inprecise. Do you think "straight", "left" and "right" (perhaps with more
finesse like "slightly left" etc at even higher levels) would be clear
enough?

And suggestion for small targets, "kick" as the verb for targets smaller
than the player, and "punt" for very small targets when they're launched
many tiles.
On Jun 6, 2013 9:28 AM, "GlyphGryph" notifications@github.com wrote:

Add the ability for a player to "push" adjacent monsters.

The player then selects the monster they wish to push. At lower levels,
this immediately begins the action, to push the monster a space away from
the player.

On success: "You shove the monster back." or a variant thereof.

A pushed monster will immediately be moved one space, and has a chance of
being knocked down depending on the success of the push and the mskill of
the monster.

The success of the push should be based on the characters unarmed skill (a
basic to-hit unarmed attack) and the difference between the strength of the
pushing character and the size of the target (to determine whether or not
the push is successful). Pushing a regular zombie should be easy, but a
bear or hulk should be far more difficult.

A very successful to hit roll means the player does a kick instead of a
push, which usually has the same mechanical effect but does damage. Against
smaller enemies such as squirrels, however, this can send the creature
multiple tiles.

On success with damage: "You kick the monster away from you," or a
variant thereof.

At higher levels of skill players may choose to WHERE to push the monster
to. At lv4, the options are not just straight back, but back diagonally. At
lv7, they include the spaces directly to the side of the monster. At lv10,
they include all three spaces on the opposite side of the player from the
monster. However, the check becomes more difficult for pushes that are not
straight back, and more difficult still for pushes to behind the player.

On success with damage, diagonal: "Your spinning kick sends the _monster_staggering to the side"
On success without damage, diagonal: "You shove the monster out of the
way."
On success without damage, reverse: "Ducking to the side, you pull the
monster past you, sending it flying."
On success with damage, reverse: "You deliver a devestating roundhouse
kick, sending the monster flying past you."

If any push would send the monster into a solid object, it takes damage
instead and remains where it is, with the added message tail: "into the *
object*, leaving it shaken."

If a push would send it into a trap, the trap is triggered and the tail
message is added: "right into the trap"

Knowledge of Judo gives a significant bonus to this ability, and gives the
player the full push direction options from the getgo.

—
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[GlyphGryph]

First off, definitely agree about punting. I actually meant to write size specific language variants and completely forgot, and punting was going to be my example, hah. I desperately want to be able to punt a squirrel through a window.

@kevingranade, I was figuring there would be a prompt and the player would then press in the direction they wanted the monster to be pushed. At the highest level, this is still only 8 possible directions. Conceivably, we could leave the "5" wait key as an option, and have it textually amount to "tripping" the creature or slamming it into the ground - most of the mechanical result of a push (triggers traps if the creature doesn't, knocks it down) minus the actual motion.
Diagonals become a bit sticky though.

So we'd have, (with @ as player and Z as target monster) the following options:

789
4Z6
=@=
123

Or

=789
==Z6
4@=3
12==

We could probably pull up a prompt and then have the available spaces flash or change color or something. I think a prompt with "left right" etc would get a bit unwieldy at the higher levels, and would be less intuitive than simply flashing multiple options for finishing the action right on the map and using the standard directional keys.

Anyways, I've actually got a few things to add to the OP, behaviour-wise:
Pushing monsters into monsters
Pushing monsters into breakable objects (like windows)

[bastardghost]

Would wielding two-handed weapons disable all shoves except for kicking, or would you shove with the two-handed weapon? And how would mutations like leg and arm tentacles affect shoving/kicking?

[Stevensonz]

nice being able to kick monsters woooh can't wait to kick them into traps/movement modifiers.
Judo doesn't sound right when kicking monsters but these does >>>> Taekwondo, Karate, Kung-fu ,Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Capoeira, Krav Maga, Ninjutsu

Now if for example a very high success you should do throw (1 tile push down?) and if critical a ranged throw instead which launches said enemy also causing down (I forgot if game throw is more than 1 tile away) Aikido, Judo, Krav Maga, Ninjutsu,
Karate for advance practitioners includes throws I don't understand why it's not in the game

[Stevensonz]

@bastardghost well if kicking with hooves I expect them to do a lot of them for throwing with 8 tentacle arms I assume it's gonna be very effecting

[GlyphGryph]

There's a variety of different tie-ins we could do. Judo could enable all directions, but turn everything into "throws" and "slams", respectively, and has all directions enabled from the get (perhaps with bonuses only to attacks the target to the other side of the attacker being)

Other martial arts might make kicking more likely, or allow 1-2 attacks (destablize, THEN push), meaning higher damage or potential further distance. Lots of possibilities open to us, though we'd probably want the basic mechanics in before considering style tie-ins.

As to why karate throws aren't in the game, for mechanical reasons we want to make each style Special and focused on a small set of unique benefits and abilities.

[Stevensonz]

This being finished soon 👍 Now why didn't we think of this earlier if this is put in game-play it would make the game more realistic and fun.

Also this would make martial arts have more of that special feel to it than just wielding a super melee weapon.

[KA101]

Hooves: Bammo. Bash damage ST_3, capped at 40 (=13 max practical ST). This would be the only reason I'd recommend the Cattle category.
8 Tentacles: Yeah, tentacles need some love. (Not that way.) Should be very easy to do grabs & trips with them--throws, maybe not (ST_0.5).

One problem: several styles have the Brutal attack, which supposedly does knockback if it ever actually kicks in. Such styles should probably have a boost to Push effectiveness.

[Stevensonz]

@KA101 yeah Imagine actually taking a turn to do a focused kick with hooves will cause better dmg mmmmm super kicks (Capoeira Time Baby)

Maybe Implement Brutal Kicks to match said martial art kind of like having a better chance of doing a kick which has already knockback+Brutal Effect

[GlyphGryph]

Bonus damage from things like hooves should ONLY apply when pushing the enemy backwards, though.

[Stevensonz]

Looked at the codes for Throw and Def_Throw Techniques and well looks like it's hard to edit to increase it from 1 tile random range to higher random tile range unless you know which value to edit and the exact number to put in, thought that just changing some distance would change it but eh I gotten weird trajectory like a zombie landing on top of me which to my surprised didn't kill me and all I can manage was a very weird angle throw. (I wonder why defensive throwing something at walls can kill them even though defensive throw itself does 0 dmg based on the TEC)

[KA101]

Heh???

I'd suspect hoof-based kick damage should apply when not pushing the target.

Currently, Hooves are a separate attack (as with horns, tentacles, Grab, etc). I imagine that post-human Hooves are about as wide as, say, the posthuman's lower leg. Thus, the power comes from using a hard Hoof to focus the kick's energy into a smaller area, arguing for better penetration than pushback.

--- On Sat, 6/8/13, GlyphGryph notifications@github.com wrote:

From: GlyphGryph notifications@github.com
Subject: Re: [Cataclysm-DDA] Add the ability to manipulate the position of enemy monsters through a "push" command (#1429)
To: "CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA" Cataclysm-DDA@noreply.github.com
Cc: "KA101" cstrayer@rocketmail.com
Date: Saturday, June 8, 2013, 11:01 AM
Bonus damage from things like hooves
should ONLY apply when pushing the enemy backwards,
though.

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Reply to this email directly or view
it on GitHub.

[jvarnes]

I desperately want to be able to punt a squirrel through a window

This is the single greatest idea ever suggested. I love you. ;)

If implemented some creature specials would need to be updated (racial types?) to make them impervious or at least very difficult to shove/kick/throws (i.e. oozes)

In addition this reminds me - is size of attacker and target implemented into the check for a hit location (at least on melee)? Should small targets have a higher chance of being hit in the head and inversely a lower chance of HITTING the player in the head. Same thing with legs (small target low chance of hitting legs, high chance of hitting others in the legs).

I got hit repeatedly in the mouth / face by coyotes and wolves. Thought it was odd (I get that they would leap, but seems like it should be less frequent)

[Justice-]

Wolves will always strike at the throat on medium-sized prey, such as deer. On larger prey they attack the soft flesh of the perineum, which includes the anus and genitals. When attacking the throat of a human damage to the eyes or face is only incidental, because they missed their mark.

[i2amroy]

In addition this reminds me - is size of attacker and target implemented into the check for a hit location (at least on melee)?

Yes, this is already factored into the chance of creatures striking various body parts.

[Leland]

We're nearly 4 years out from the last comment here. Closing – if there's still interest by anyone feel free to either let me know you want it reopened here or just create a new issue.