More Survival Tools Series 6

[chaosvolt]

Well that was quick. More fun things to tweak, courtesy of a certain star-spawn and his noodly appendages of insight. The Big Fat Tileset Update is still WIP and will be PR'd another day.

1. Gave tinder volume, 2 per stack (or 1 per 25 units).
2. Increased hobo stove's volume from 4 to 8. The real-world ideal
   material for a hobo stove is a coffee can, after all.
3. Increased crafting time of "torch from pine resin" recipe, added some
   crafting quality requirements and the need for a fire.
4. Gave batch multipliers to the following recipes: torch from pine
   resin, fire-dried hide, fire-dried pelt, resinous cord, hard cheese, and
   campfire hotdogs.

[chaosvolt]

Hmm. And now a dumb question: should I give the nomad class nomad gear? o3o

If I did so I logically should replace the backpack in addition to removing the cloak and loincloth. This would bump protection up by 5 and 5, boost coverage by 30, and double carrying capacity. The only downsides would be 20 less warmth and 2 less environmental protection, as the encumbrance increase would be counteracted by the backpack no longer competing with the quiver. ;w;

EDIT: The logical alternative to curtail this temptation would be, of course, to rename the "nomad" profession to "wanderer" or some such thing.

[chaosvolt]

Meh, I'll just have to see if an obscene 80 storage warrants another point increase. =w=

[chaosvolt]

Huh. Well shit. Seems that making cloaks and other hooded items use auto-transform to raise/lower the hood doesn't work.

[Coolthulhu]

Lacks a comma here

[chaosvolt]

And thank you for spotting that. ^^"

[chaosvolt]

Hmm. I also noticed that I left out the "HOOD" flag in the wool cloak item. That was from when I was trying to implement raising/lowering the hood as a use action.

The hood token doesn't DO anything when an item already covers the head by default, so it's only a matter of consistency. =w=

[Coolthulhu]

The hood token doesn't DO anything when an item already covers the head by default

As long as the head encumbrance is below 10, hood will work even on an item that covers head.
Hood doesn't extend coverage to head, it simply adds extra warmth to it when available (and needed).

[chaosvolt]

Ah, I see. Hmm. And all the cloaks have enough encumbrance that they're below 10 when fitted, if I recall?

[Coolthulhu]

This sounds like an overkill: both brick kiln and press are too hard to get for anyone using pebble ammo to bother with.

[Coolthulhu]

Lead has a low melting temperature: it doesn't require a proper crucible, nor a forge. You could probably melt it in an iron frying pan over a campfire.

[Coolthulhu]

4 gun skill?

[Coolthulhu]

You're using the old values of dispersion here (before it all got multiplied by 15). Is the rest of the sling-related stuff still in old dispersion?

[chaosvolt]

I copied the lead pellet recipe from the ball bearing recipe, which is why it has 4 marksmanship and a crucible.

Speaking of which, check the mainline dispersion on the pebble ammo. It's still set to the old values. >_>

[qbradq]

I can verify that you can indeed melt lead on a cast iron frying pan over an open flame. Most frying pans even have pouring spout or groove which helps with hillbilly casting jobs :)

[chaosvolt]

Ooh, though I dunno if adding a frying pan to the recipe would be worth the realism points over using the press.

Also, naturally things would interrupt me while I was about ready to sync an update. =w=

One thing that would be clever is if you could use nearby terrain for a mold instead, as one historical technique was to press into wet sand with one's thumb for casting sling ammo.

[chaosvolt]

Doh. Also why I hate using the online editor, I have a bad habit of forgetting what update number I'm up to. Technically that's Update 8, Parts 1 and 2.

[chaosvolt]

Hmm. More derps, gold's melting point is way higher than gold, which I put in the lead pellet recipe because I looked up the density but forgot to check melting point.

Herp derp, I are smart dragon. =w=

[qbradq]

Why not have two different recipes, one for the press and one for cooking 2 plus an additional mold material, like two by four OR sand(5) OR clay. All of these materials are used in real life and this recipe would be useful early game.

[chaosvolt]

Ah, might be more logical. Not sure how you'd use a two-by-four in a way that doesn't involve putting holes in it though.

EDIT: On the other hand, simply using the same recipe and simply allowing the use of mold materials as an alternative to the press would be less recipe clutter, unless adding cooking 2 is really that essential to simply making an improvised bullet mold. >w>

[chaosvolt]

[Headaches Intensify]

EDIT: Also, I might bump the ember carrier volume up to 2 and bump capacity up to 100. Thoughts?

[graysage1]

@chaosvolt We're just having a friendly chat. :) You can relax and smile if you feel like it. Don't sweat the small things. :)

[chaosvolt]

ಠ_ಠ

In any case, will work on that PR I suppose. Any opinion on the aforementioned change to the ember carrier?

[graysage1]

@chaosvolt

Plus with the reduced volume of a hobo stove, that's 2 more stacks worth you can afford to carrying.

Yea, I agree. Personally even if @Coolthulhu doesn't want to mainline hobo stove, I think it will be very balanced with volume 6 and tinder 1vol per 50.

Hotplate is volume 5 and uses batteries, so 1 vol per 100. So for people who run across tons of batteries, this is still a superior item! If you don't mind using batteries to cook, why would you use hobo stove, right? The only point in using hobo stove is to save batteries. That's why I don't think there was any problem with how it was originally, contrary to @Coolthulhu 's opinion. I still respect @Coolthulhu 's opinion even if I disagree with it. I also share his concern about bloat items. I just use different lines of reasoning from him, that's all. Also my play style is probably different.

[graysage1]

@chaosvolt I must have missed it: what are you planning to do with the ember carrier? 90% of our recent convo was focused on tinder and hobo stove, so I probably missed it.

[Coolthulhu]

[Headaches Intensify]

For now just do what @graysage1 said about balancing the tinder and stove. The discussion is about general food crafting.
We should probably make a separate issue for it.

Yes, because I will cook for free one way or another, right?

The deal is, what you probably want here is an option to automatically cook up stuff without caring too much about danger/weather/etc. because you've got those covered, but while caring about resource usage.
Since hobo stove uses the same mechanics as hotplate (balanced not just for convenience, but also safety), it is kinda out of place with balancing. It's fine as long as it stays in a mod, but it wouldn't be in mainline.

The options I'd rather see here would be:

• Allowing using un-loaded fuel in tools (say, using gasoline from a bottle instead of just gasoline in the cooker)
• Implementing automatic crafting of ingredients (plank nearby->autocrafts into tinder->autoloads into stove)
• Adding time penalties to low-grade crafting methods

Difficulty necessarily creates tedium. The proper solution would be automatic methods that keep the danger but spare the keypresses. Hobo stove is more of a workaround than a solution.

[chaosvolt]

I must have missed it: what are you planning to do with the ember carrier? 90% of our recent convo was focused on tinder and hobo stove, so I probably missed it.

Was considering increasing the ember carrier's capacity from 50 tinder to 100, and its volume from 1 to 2.

[chaosvolt]

derpdragon ensues #12432

EDIT: Oi, no eating my action asterisks. o3o

[graysage1]

@Coolthulhu

It's fine as long as it stays in a mod, but it wouldn't be in mainline.

As soon as @chaosvolt 's mod became available, I haven't played a single game without it. Unless something changes significantly, as far as I am concerned, his mod is standard CDDA experience for me personally. So I am set here as a player. (BTW, even if hypothetically you took the hobo stove out, it has other useful recipes in it to keep me using it anyway.) @chaosvolt might have other feelings if he wants more people to use his cool items and recipes in the unmodded game.

Implementing automatic crafting of ingredients (plank nearby->autocrafts into tinder->autoloads into stove)

Yeesssss PLEASE!!! I am prostrating here. :) Charge me whatever game resources you like, but if this saves as many keystrokes as I think it does, yes, yes, yes.

@chaosvolt

Was considering increasing the ember carrier's capacity from 50 tinder to 100, and its volume from 1 to 2.

Personally I prefer 1vol capacity 50 ember carrier because I keep it unlit and only light it as needed once in a blue moon when I am using it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your proposal per se. It will allow you to keep the ember carrier lit through a long night's sleep (I don't think 50 will keep it lit). You might want to ask for more input from more players who use the ember carrier. Do you use it yourself?

I used to use it when your mod first came out, but then stopped using it when I realized there are plenty of lighters and there is no point to carry something with volume and extra keyboard input (refilling it uses keystrokes) to start fires.

[chaosvolt]

I sometimes use the ember carrier with characters that deliberately stay innawoods, but the flint and steel does the job decently in most situations.

Haven't got any other players to give input on that though. ;w;

[graysage1]

I sometimes use the ember carrier with characters that deliberately stay innawoods, but the flint and steel does the job decently in most situations.

I see, yes if you stay in the woods then the ember carrier will let you start offensive and defensive fires during combat assuming you haven't found any matches or lighters. Which is the only item of its kind that does that. But. It needs survival 4 and fab 1, so your character will be somewhat strong by the time you can make the ember carrier, which may still keep it useful too, but when I play the game I tend to use the fire trick mostly in the beginning. Pretty soon my character dishes out strong melee and ranged damage and I don't need fires to help me fight. But that's just me.

[chaosvolt]

True. Not sure whether to tone that crafting demand down or not. Other balance ideas to add to the headaches. ;A;

EDIT: Might up the fabrication requirement and lower the survival requirement, 3/2 instead of 4/1.

[graysage1]

@chaosvolt

If/when @Coolthulhu implements that auto-crafting magic stuff, all the questions about the keyboard input will go away and we'll only ever need to consider game resources instead of how tedious or not tedious it is to input something.

So assuming I understood @Coolthulhu correctly, I think the best course of action is to wait a bit, don't worry about modding the resources usages, and see what happens. If we get this auto-crafting thing into the game, all sorts of problems will get solved automatically.

[chaosvolt]

We'll see, sounds like an ambitious concept. Fine then, will leave Update 6.5 as it presently is. The sooner that gets merged, the sooner I can go back to editing sprites in GIMP. Still got over a dozen items I was gonna sprite up.

[graysage1]

sounds like an ambitious concept

I agree. Tinder and tinder items are pretty good as is. Even with the tinder having volume, all it means is I can't carry tinder around. Since I don't use tinder in combat (because I don't use the ember carrier) it's not really a problem for me. But it's your mod, so as its author, if you feel it needs an adjustment, then maybe it does. You can't always listen to players like me or you'll go bonkers.

[Coolthulhu]

If/when @Coolthulhu implements that auto-crafting magic stuff

Probably not too soon. Workaround are fine for now.
The crafting system will get some enhancements possibly relatively soon, but chain crafting may be a bit harder than it sounds.

EDIT:

EDIT: Might up the fabrication requirement and lower the survival requirement, 3/2 instead of 4/1.

May be OK even at 2/2 or so. Around 2 survival, you get the fire drill. While more expensive, it is also less tedious to use.

[chaosvolt]

Ah, okay. ^^"

[graysage1]

@Coolthulhu

but chain crafting may be a bit harder than it sounds.

I agree. I don't have any illusions about it. I was just saying I'd love a feature like that, that's all. :)

[Coolthulhu]

Yeah, chain crafting would be cool (and it could open up a way to add crafting intermediates without cluttering crafting system itself) and I actually want to add some auto-crafting system, but Z-levels first.

After Z-levels, I'd try to get NPCs to craft stuff. And this would require making them figure out how to craft ingredients first. And NPC is just a special kind of a player, so porting NPC crafting back to player would involve only adding a nice UI.

[chaosvolt]

For now I'll hope for 6.5 to get merged, while also working on fixing a thing for Blaze. owo

[graysage1]

@Coolthulhu

but Z-levels first.

This sounds exciting. I've been seeing these PRs going on, and I was wondering, is there a player tutorial about how to use Z levels? I vaguely understand what they do and I want to try them, but I have no clue how to go about it and what to look for. The game, last I checked, gave a dire warning against enabling Z levels.

I'd try to get NPCs to craft stuff.

Awesomeness. Any plans for getting the NPCs to clear rubble and farm?

And NPC is just a special kind of a player, so porting NPC crafting back to player would involve only adding a nice UI.

Sweet! The more code reuse, the better.

[chaosvolt]

Though as annoying as random-spawn NPCs can be, giving them added reason to glom onto the player's stuff might cause Fun. owo

[Coolthulhu]

The game, last I checked, gave a dire warning against enabling Z levels.

That's because they are quite broken at times. Currently they're better kept off.
I may add a tutorial on wiki when they're usable.

Any plans for getting the NPCs to clear rubble and farm?

Yes, probably before crafting.

Though as annoying as random-spawn NPCs can be, giving them added reason to glom onto the player's stuff might cause Fun.

I'll probably adjust NPC stealing behavior too. Currently it is more of an annoyance than a complete mechanic (NPCs can't look into vehicles).

[graysage1]

Stealing NPCs... Yikes... Now I will want heavy locks on my doors, safes, and motion detectors. :)

[chaosvolt]

Maybe. As part of a greater development of their ability to understand ownership, and a way for a player to express the sentiment of "this is mine" to influence that behavior would ensure NPC theft becomes an actual meaningful, deliberate behavior instead of them just being a bunch of ignorant kleptos. X3

[graysage1]

As part of a greater development of their ability to understand ownership, and a way for a player to express the sentiment of "this is mine" to influence that behavior would ensure NPC theft becomes an actual meaningful, deliberate behavior instead of them just being a bunch of ignorant kleptos. X3

This would probably cover the friendly NPCs and those that in some way respect you. But roving hostile NPCs may not care about any of that and indeed act as kleptos. They might break into your base through the window, and take everything you have stored to their own base.

[chaosvolt]

Yus, maybe. Then again recruited companions currently do far less wanton looting anyway, so as it stands the player already has some control over the kleptomania, so long as they have some speech skill and/or the power of save-scumming.

[Coolthulhu]

They might break into your base through the window, and take everything into their own base, or whatnot.

Hostile NPCs can do it right now, they just don't understand how to properly search the place.

I was mostly talking about the "friendly" thieves. Those are annoying to keep in the base, because they don't respect dibs.

[graysage1]

All the stuff related to the NPCs sounds awesome. I currently play with static NPCs, and usually besides the starting NPC I don't see a whole lot of them around. Sometimes I see one. Are they meant to be rare?

[chaosvolt]

Not helped by the fact that static NPCs don't always get marked on the map immediately.