Weapon and Tool Additions

[chaosvolt]

Rivet suggested I mainline these ideas I had. Adds 2 new tools, changing
the relevance of 1 tool, and a few added guns.

1. Pliers, basic bolt-turning item and therefore inferior to the wrench.
2. A SET of screwdrivers, providing the fine screwdriving ability. More
   or less common than the basic screwdriver depending on where you look.
   This means the basic screwdriver no longer gives fine screwdriving
   quality.
3. Sten 9mm SMG. No longer craftable.
4. Thompson SMG, in .45 ACP.
5. M1903 Springfield, in .30-06.
6. M1 Garand, in .30-06. Sorry, no ping noise for you.
7. Browning Automatic Rifle, in .30-06.
8. M60 GPMG, in 7.62x51mm.
9. M240 GPMG/MMG, in 7.62x51mm.

These guns need a good hard look to determine prices and stats relative
to other weapons.

[chaosvolt]

Now, I've been up past 3:30, sleeeep. @_@

[kevingranade]

Stein needs more than, "someone historically could craft it" for inclusion. Using what tools? What materials? If we're talking a lathe and a metal press, the survivor doesn't have those.

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

Yeah, I've got a .pdf of the original blueprints for the Sten mk. II on my computer, and I can say for certain that without a halfway-decently equipped metal shop, you're not going to be able to make one of those. On the other hand, if you do have access to a halfway-decently equipped metal shop, it looks like it would take virtually no specialized skill to make.

[DavidKeaton]

Rivet, the Sten ain't the grease gun, right? Cuz that was mostly rolled metal.

[Sirbab]

Looking at the mechanism for the stem 9mm, the mechanism is rather simple, but that's not to say someone would be able to make it without decent fabrication tools. See: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/StenmkII_animation.gif in terms of cataclysm difficulty, i'd say a "bit" more difficult than the flintlock rifle, certainly would take a hell of a lot more time to fabricate. pretty cool gun though, the blowback is merely arrested from the spring sofar as i can tell.

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

Rivet, the Sten ain't the grease gun, right?

Correct. Though they have a similar appearance, the Sten and the M3 are very different firearms.

[DavidKeaton]

the m3 should be relatively craft-able then, yeah? is the caliber the difference or is it more about the firing mechanism?

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

The M3's guts are slightly more complicated than the Sten's, but the primary thing that makes them unfeasible to craft as it currently stands is that you'd need a lathe, press, shear, metal forming wheel, etc. If the character had access to a metal shop, then producing simple SMGs like those would really only require blueprints, material, and the skill and knowledge of how to operate the machinery to bring it all together.

[chaosvolt]

My apologies for the substantial delays, had a long day.

So, should I remove the Sten recipe, or bump up the requirements? Any other items in need of tweaks?

EDIT: Looking at it yeah, guess it'd be better to just remove the recipe. I ALSO forgot the "intact .22LR casings" idea. Doh.

[chaosvolt]

Now, if I had any good data on dispersion, recoil, and price for these guns. Only instance where I could find a reliable figure for pricing was for the Thompson, with auction result ranges having been mentioned on the weapon's wikipedia page.

[DavidKeaton]

Ah, fair enough. I could see the addition of a metalsmith building being able to produce such things, but those tools won't be in an RV feasibly. :-) so if I read Rivet right (thanks for the info btw!), it may be best to remove the ability to make the Sten altogether.

[chaosvolt]

I would not want to make 9mm Stew. o3o

But yeah, unless the vehicle welding rig can make up for it, I doubt we have the tools for it.

[DavidKeaton]

I changed it to Sten after the fact. :-) hehe yeah the tools needed won't be on the rig. ;-)

[chaosvolt]

I blame typo imps. <3

Also, the fanciest gun you can make is the Survivor's .223 Carbine, if I recall.

[DavidKeaton]

true, but that's a makeshift weapon. :-)

[chaosvolt]

Trying to recall if it's meant to be an autoloader or a manual action. If it's semi-auto that sets a precedent. o3o

EDIT: Semi-auto, but with an implied...TUBE magazine? As in the exact worst mag design to use for pointed bullets?

"clip_size": 10, "//": "Homemade tube magazine, based roughly off of early Winchester repeating rifles and 223 round size",

It also has the "eject on reload" flag that implies it's a revolver rifle instead. I think whoever coded this was up as late as I was last night. ;w;

[DavidKeaton]

doesn't mean it's a revolver, ever seen a lever action?

[chaosvolt]

Lever actions don't eject all their casings out at once, and revolvers don't generally have tube magazines. Nevermind the fact that tube magazine, plus centerfire primer, plus spitzer bullet equals bad idea. :V

[DavidKeaton]

not saying it ejects all casings, but I did misread the "eject after reload" to be "eject after firing", so the onus of the misunderstanding is mine lol.

[DavidKeaton]

however, the statement "revolvers don't generally have tube magazines" is evidence of a makeshift gun. a survivor weapon, if you will. ;-)

[chaosvolt]

True. Definitely a rather weird little thing though.

EDIT: Also, a revolver with a tube magazine would be a novel concept, though probably not very feasible to make ad-hoc given the normal way cylinders and tubes load. Still, ".223 Remington" and "tube magazine" are far less compatible than "revolver" and "tube magazine" in my opinion.

EDIT 2: Also, I think someone derped and made .223 handload recipes allow using .22 LR cases. Add that to my list of things to fix, I guess. :V

EDIT 3: Oh, it's as a source of brass to jacket the round, I see. Odd, would be more versatile if casings in general could be rendered into a generic brass material item to allow that. O.o

[chaosvolt]

Also, I still would love .357 Magnum. Any idea how one could implement that ammunition type overlap idea? Anyone posted it as a PR or issue yet? owo

EDIT: From what little I've seen, if the code that allows defining an item's material to use multiple materials can be bastardized for use in how the ammunition type property is defined, that might be a first step. Next step would be simply allowing an item of ammo to use multiple ammotypes as an item might use multiple materials, while leaving ammo type coding for weapons alone.

An example of how that would work, say you added in .410 shotshells and .45 Long Colt. The .45 ammo would be assigned, for example, the ammo types ".45 LC" and "Judge Usable" to allow use in either a standard .45 SAA revolver or a Taurus Judge. Meanwhile, .410 shells would be given the ".410" ammotype and the "Judge Usable" ammotype.

[kevingranade]

Neither of these is going to be common in a modern rifle collection, dial the weight down to 1 or so, probably the same for all the instances of them.

[DavidKeaton]

was about to say the Judge is a perfect example (great gun to fire btw). albeit a better idea is to not define "Judge Usable", but to define a gun as having multiple ammo types. in all honesty it wouldn't take all too much code. most of the damage already comes from ammo anyway.

plus it could allow for other guns to use the added code as well.

[kevingranade]

Woo, this is exactly where I was planning on going with high-quality screwdriver tools.
Now need same for spanners, and a mechanism for collecting enough misc screwdrivers to make a set :3

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

Yes, this is very good!

[DavidKeaton]

sadly, I wanted that pinging noise. :-(

[chaosvolt]

Meep. Guess I could tone down the rarity for the WW2-era guns, sure. And thanks, was hoping the screwdriver set would seem about right.

And @DavidKeaton, I would love the ping too, but no idea how to implement that, code-wise. Every source I've read elsewhere claims the ping happens only if the en-bloc clip lands on a hard surface and that every video game gets it wrong, yet Rivet's apparent experience says the games apparently get it right. :V

EDIT: Also, I suppose making the multiple ammo hinge on the guns using it instead of the ammo might be more flexible, I was just unsure which option would be easiest to code.

[chaosvolt]

I might see how much I should reduce the durability to account for that. And does that link permit crafting with the sort of hand tools a survivor would have? Remember metal shops aren't a thing yet. owo

[DavidKeaton]

can't think of any additions!

[chaosvolt]

Yay, that's a good sign. owo

[chaosvolt]

Could you slip in saber, not fencing more cavalry or pirate cutlass, for little ole' me? Or better yet both? Please been begging for a while and somehow no dice.

Hmm. Any suggestions of stats on such a thing? =w=

EDIT: Could've sworn we already had a saber item though, at least the fencing model, unsure if it'd differ enough from a cavalry-grade saber to warrant inclusion.

[DavidKeaton]

I'd be okay with this. Considering it is curved towards the end, the cutting would be decent. More than a sword, but less than what a scimitar would be.

[chaosvolt]

Hopefully it looks alright stat-wise, then.

[Chezzo]

Yeah, ChaosVolt. That magazine I linked to makes a sten gun with an angle grinder, a hacksaw, a drill, a stand welder, a dremel and some hand files.

It is a really good magazine, too. I like to know how to make guns out of tin cans and bits of string.

[chaosvolt]

Hmm. I did kinda think that the only real niche the Sten fills, due to already having a decent selection of 9mm SMGs, was the possibility of crafting it.

A drill, hacksaw, and welder we obviously can obtain in-game already. Not sure what tools exist that would allow replacing the angle grinder, dremel tool, and files though. owo

Anyone have suggestions on implementing this? Do note we can already make a semi-automatic .223 rifle in the game, when in real-life making a full-auto-only gun is simpler in terms of engineering.

EDIT: Finally reading that file Chezzo linked. To quote:

"A few very basic and inexpensive power tools can be used to simulate machining actions
usually reserved for a milling machine. Using a cheap angle grinder the average hobbyist has
the ability to perform speedy removal of steel using a variety of cutting and grinding discs.
Rather than tediously using a hacksaw to cut steel sheet, an angle grinder fitted with a 1mm
slitting disc will accurately cut a straight line through steel of any thickness in mere seconds.
Fitted with a 2mm disc it can be used to easily 'sculpt' thick steel into any shape in a fraction
of the time it takes to manually use a hand file."

So we could just add drilling to the list of qualities my initial take on the recipe requires, and add a considerable boost to the time it takes to make.

[kevingranade]

Crafting automatic weapons in mainline is out, full stop. Feel free to add it in a non-default mod for people who want to mess with their game. Side note, "x should be in because y is already in" is not an actual argument, stop using it if you want me to take you seriously.

[chaosvolt]

Alright, no Sten crafting for us then. =w=

And concerning that, I didn't think adding an inaccurate, low-durability SMG would really be that unbalancing. I mostly thought it would be a clever bit of realism that wouldn't be that much of an annoyance to add in. And as I said before, we already have crappy 9mm SMGs, so the Sten is a bit redundant without the crafting option. I was already a bit leery of adding both the M60 and the M240, and was unsure whether the M1903 and Thompson were worth adding.

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

Please double space after periods; also a typo: 'to' should be 'too'.

[chaosvolt]

Ack. @_@

[Zireael07]

Hmm, we have a craftable semi-auto gun atm?

+1 to making craftable auto guns a mod.

[chaosvolt]

As Kevin already said, the fact that a semi-auto gun is realistically more complex to craft does not set a valid precedent for crafting a full-auto gun.

And unrelated to this, that tube magazine comment in the data for it still makes my head hurt. :V

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

that tube magazine comment in the data

Spire point ammunition in a tube magazine. I wonder what the person who added that one was thinking at the time.

[chaosvolt]

Exactly what I was wondering. o3o

[chaosvolt]

I will admit that it is a tad silly of me to snark at something that has no gameplay effect and isn't even visible unless you go json hunting, but still. ;w;

[DavidKeaton]

I have complained about silly things too. :-) (i.e. auto usage issue, anyone?)

[chaosvolt]

I blame being enough of a gun nut to notice inane things like that. o3o

[DavidKeaton]

I consider myself a gun nut, but not on you nor Rivet's scale.

[chaosvolt]

Rivet definitely seems to be the bigger gun nut though. Despite the extensive field manual collection I've gathered, the only guns I've had the chance to use are rather old hand-me-downs. ^^"

[chaosvolt]

Well, while I'm waiting on this, also PR'd a minor tileset update ( #12544 ).

Always leery of updating the master and starting a new branch when an older PR is still ongoing, but should be fine.

[Rivet-the-Zombie]

I can see some places were we can expand on this; stuff like a recipe where you collect a dozen normal screwdrivers and convert them into a screwdriver set and such, but I like where this is now.

[chaosvolt]

Ooh, thank you for the merge then.

And of course I'll hope the BAR turns out to be useful. Favorite as always. o3o