Acidic Ant Expansion - Acidic Chitin Item & Equipment

[DracoGriffin]

Adds acid chitin, acid chitin gear, corrects acid ant to "acidic", alters monster flags in line with harvest changes.

Added biosilicified chitin aka "acid chitin", which can be used to differentiate between the chitins of the ant species and also to act as a potential reward for players butchering the acidic ants.

Added upgrades to the inline chitin gear using the new chitin and modified to follow the armor balance formula. Calculated values are:

Biosilicified armor: 0.83
Biosilicified helmet: 0.83
Biosilicified arm guards: 0.66
Biosilicified boots: 0.74
Biosilicified gauntlets: 0.88

Crafting difficulty is currently set to +1 original values since it should require a bit more technique to make, but it could be lowered to original chitin gear level in order to be more accessible to player crafting. The other skills required are Survival 4 since "tanning hide/pelt" requires Survival 3, it could make logical sense the crafter would need some know-how to trim and clean the acid chitin for wear/use. Secondly, First Aid 2 seems an appropriate level of knowledge to neutralize acids as the player can make saline solution/homemade disinfectant at this point, but I feel Cooking 4 (especially since Cooking is baked into chemistry/pharmacology knowledge) may be more appropriate as that is when a few more crafting options for synthesizing acid becomes prevalent and could be useful in how the player would neutralize the acid. It could also be argued Survival 4 is enough awareness to be able to remove the dangerous parts of the chitin, without requiring tertiary knowledge [First Aid/Cooking].

Gear requires 1.5x chitin of original in comparison as the acid chitin has to be trimmed down, cleaned out and usable pieces have to be decontaminated/neutralized.

It's a bit strange chitin gear doesn't require any tools as-is, so for the acid chitin, I added sewing and fine cutting; the fine cutting to focus on "surgically" removing any dangerous membranes, acid sacs and such and to whittle down the extraneous tissues.

Not sure if the option for harvest.json was a better choice than simply adding a new flag "MF_ACIDCHITIN" to mtype.h / activity_handlers.cpp and such, but it was more accessible. Harvest.json may end up being bloated in this manner though?

• Still need to alter iuse.cpp to allow the basic repair kit to improve acid chitin gear, similarly to chitin gear is now. -- Seems to be correct code syntax based on passing checks

Research that went into expanding on the acidic ant's chitin as well as for the equipment:

https://brage.bibsys.no/xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/245569/122471_FULLTEXT01.pdf?sequence=1
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/cm200677d
http://ec.asm.org/content/8/7/1038.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2798246/
http://www.cement.org/Learn/concrete-technology/durability/acid-resistance

[ymber]

Queen drops seem really low for a LARGE monster.

[DracoGriffin]

You're right, looks like I copied over from _med and forgot to update that one.

[Coolthulhu]

Instead of copy+pasting whole items, try to use "copy-from" syntax where possible.
Basically, what you're doing now is creating an "independent" item instead of just a variant. This means that if someone changes the base item, the new item is not affected by the changes and needs to be changed separately.
By using "copy-from", you'd show more explicitly how do the new items differ from the old ones.
For examples of "copy-from", see data/json/items/gun/9mm.json.

Finally, the new items should not be a strict upgrade from the old ones. The armor formula doesn't take acid resistance or environmental protection into account, meaning it isn't very good for comparisons with items that have those.
Acid/environmental protection should come at the cost of raising encumbrance, lowering coverage or noticeably lowering protection.

• In case of lower body armors (legs and feet) this needs to have a noticeable cost - 5% coverage, +6 encumbrance or something like this. For leg armor, +1 acid resistance is worth about 0.08 "balance points".
• For feet armor, "balance points" don't work well, so it's better to say that 1 acid resistance is worth about 5 points of encumbrance, up until +5 resistance (the max dealt by acid on ground, the source of 95% of acid damage to feet in the game).
• Strictly upper body armors don't need a big penalty - ~0.03 "balance points" should be enough. They don't get hit with acid often and when they do, it's large amounts at once (and thus not resisted easily).

[ymber]

Check commit a89ad22. A stackdump made it in with your iuse.cpp changes.

[Coolthulhu]

Ants are tainted but queen isn't?

[DracoGriffin]

Yes, the queen's ovipositor for egg-laying supercedes acidopore production, thus all the soldiers and workers have acidopores, while the queen has reproduction capability.

http://www.antnest.co.uk/intanatomy.html
http://articles.extension.org/pages/11124/fire-ant-stings

Essentially, the acid sacs are volatile and unstable, so upon death, it implodes and contaminates all the meat.

[Coolthulhu]

Environmental protection applies to glares and inhaled gases if it covers eyes and mouth.

[DracoGriffin]

Yeah, I'm not trying to pump up resistance to those, but since environmental protection has those effects baked in and the acid resistance formula relies on environmental protection, it's difficult to balance those numbers. Still working on it.

[Coolthulhu]

It should not be better for non-acid-related purposes than regular chitin plate.

[DracoGriffin]

It's denser and more durable than regular chitin, so they wouldn't be the exact same in damage resistance.

[Coolthulhu]

Use copy-from, don't copy things manually.

[DracoGriffin]

Finally, the new items should not be a strict upgrade from the old ones. The armor formula doesn't take acid resistance or environmental protection into account, meaning it isn't very good for comparisons with items that have those.
Acid/environmental protection should come at the cost of raising encumbrance, lowering coverage or noticeably lowering protection.

I have to disagree. If you're making the same thing with better materials, you should have an improved item, not some weird side-grade. Essentially this argument is suggesting that the _fake and _replica versions of katanas, zweihanders, and such should be somehow on-par to the authentic weapons. No, if they are made with less desirable materials, then it should reflect that in the product; thus using a higher-grade of chitin, should result in a stronger, more durable item.

Unfortunately, it looks like environmental protection and acid resistance are tied together in a formula, so it's a bit challenging to get the numbers in a better spot without inflating one value or the other.

In terms of balancing the items with gameplay, my idea was a stepping stone between mid to late game. Most survivors will be choosing heavy survivor gear with padded leather/kevlar in all slots if they've reached high skill levels or using some sort of power armor given luck with RNG. So any survivors at this point will more than likely overlook this equipment in favor of the tried and true.

So thus the research I presented in the initial post to support this development, so if survivors come across the acidic anthills, it does present a suitable challenge with some form of "reward".

There is definitely some fine-tuning to be done, but I think it's pretty close.

[Coolthulhu]

If you're making the same thing with better materials, you should have an improved item, not some weird side-grade.

You aren't making them with better materials - you are making them with specialized materials that are worse for cases other than the one they are specialized for. Otherwise all insects would be covered with acid-resistant plate.

Acid ants aren't rare. When you have them, you have them in huge bulk. By the time you craft chitin items, you either have a ton of chitin or don't have enough to craft with and need to raid a hill.
Don't add strict upgrades like that. They are terrible for design because they very quickly push out existing items, introduce power creep, and blandify everything. Tradeoffs, on the other hand, actually allow things to become diverse.

[Coolthulhu]

So any survivors at this point will more than likely overlook this equipment in favor of the tried and true.

Then buff chitin armor and base the new acid chitin around that new power level.
Don't just introduce new, stronger chitin that completely obsoletes old chitin.

[DracoGriffin]

You aren't making them with better materials - you are making them with specialized materials that are worse for cases other than the one they are specialized for. Otherwise all insects would be covered with acid-resistant plate.

It is better; biosilicifation is a rare process in nature, that increases the strength of the chitin as well as the acid resistance of the cell walls at the cost of increased weight. This is what is known in science SO FAR. There could be other things, but I don't have that background yet to know or access to newer research theses.

And that is not how natural selection works at all; just because it developed/works for some species, does not mean it works for all, nor does it mean they will ever develop enough mutations for the process to appear as it does currently.

Acid ants aren't rare. When you have them, you have them in huge bulk. By the time you craft chitin items, you either have a ton of chitin or don't have enough to craft with and need to raid a hill.
Don't add strict upgrades like that. They are terrible for design because they very quickly push out existing items, introduce power creep, and blandify everything. Tradeoffs, on the other hand, actually allow things to become diverse.

Well, that is potentially my error. They were meant to be a rare variant for anthills, like 1/8 or less. And secondly, these were meant to address the lack of reward inferred from @kevingranade

kevin the mattress - 02/22/2018
True, body parts seems like a good way to make them worth attacking

So I worked on it, and found actual biological basis for it, instead of just on a whim of "well, this gear is better and gives good stuff". I understand the issue with design, but again, you're suggesting to reduce the usefulness of an item that exists in a world of multiple dimensions, aliens, advanced mutagenic research, and disregard the ACTUAL science that I've put forth? That seems more terrible for design. I realize there is some more tuning to be done, but essentially stating "well we already have copper, we don't need steel, that's too powerful" is not helpful.

[Leland]

the ACTUAL science that I've put forth

Can you dwell on this a bit more? I see that you've linked 5 papers at the end of your PR description, but I don't see where they've been referenced.

Understanding how you've utilized these may help with understanding your rationale here. Is there one of them in particular that plays into discussing why biosilicified chitin would be stronger and better able to withstand blows than regular chitin? At least one of those papers are behind a paywall, so specific quotes would be greatly appreciated.

[kevingranade]

As long as acidic ants are sufficiently rare (this might need some tweaking) and sufficiently dangerous (they seem far more dangerous than regular ants, I'd welcome feedback on the extent to which others agree with this), I don't see a problem with the resulting materials being strictly superior to regular ant chitin from a balance poit of view.
Fundamentally, I disagree with the assertion that items shouldn't obsolete each other. There are and should be huge swaths of items that are simply better than the alternatives. We certainly don't want ever-increasing power levels from equipment, but as long as new additions are neither superior to all alternatives nor trivial to acquire (therefore obsoleting huge swaths of other items at game start and negatively impacting player opportunity for progression), it's reasonable for some new items to obsolete existing options.

Another way of putting this is that difficulty of acquision should be considered an aspect of item balance along with weight, encumbrance, defensive ability, etc.

[illi-kun]

Not sure if the option for harvest.json was a better choice

This is definetely the correct choise.

[Coolthulhu]

As long as acidic ants are sufficiently rare (this might need some tweaking) and sufficiently dangerous (they seem far more dangerous than regular ants, I'd welcome feedback on the extent to which others agree with this), I don't see a problem with the resulting materials being strictly superior to regular ant chitin from a balance poit of view.

There are few problems with that approach:

• Regular ants aren't the only source of chitin. Comparison to ants alone disregards all the more dangerous sources, such as wasps, razorclaws etc.
• Acid ants may be more dangerous than plain ants, but it doesn't matter at the point they are used for crafting. Because of acid ants' "ACID" ability (as opposed to acid "gun" actor, acid bite or acid barf), their entire danger can be bypassed semi-trivially by wearing turnout boots+pants or hauling a 1 tile boardable vehicle to stand on in combat.
• Balancing with rarity generally doesn't work well in case of items that aren't used up (repairable damage doesn't count). All the worst offenders that needed nerfing - Niten, katanas, atomic coffee maker, super armors - they share the core idea of "it's OK because it's rare". The end result was (still is) that bunkers/banks/etc. become worthless most of the time (not worth it for midgame character) because things in them have low drop rates, but occasionally cause a power spike.

Having the new items be overall somewhat better (acid resistance is useful), but still worse at pure physical resistance, would avoid all those problems, while still keeping a reward.

[DracoGriffin]

Can you dwell on this a bit more? I see that you've linked 5 papers at the end of your PR description, but I don't see where they've been referenced. Understanding how you've utilized these may help with understanding your rationale here. Is there one of them in particular that plays into discussing why biosilicified chitin would be stronger and better able to withstand blows than regular chitin? At least one of those papers are behind a paywall, so specific quotes would be greatly appreciated.

Sure! First off, let's start with silica's inorganic properties. This isn't terribly academic, but it's established in the construction communities that silica can increase a material's acidic resistance by some form of mixture or coating. So if a survivor wanted to improve the acidic resistance of armor or vehicle parts, apply/making some sort of silica-coating would perform as such (however, there is probably much more to this in-depth from an inorganic chemistry POV, there may even be better options).

So then to give background on chitin (this is a 85 page thesis, but it details chitin in ways that Googling won't offer as in-depth). So I'm not going to summarize this, that'd take waaaay too much time, and beyond the scope of this PR. However, I will suggest these few lines:

α-Chitin is by far the most abundant form, and is usually found where extreme hardness is required (Rudall & Kenching, 1973). β-chitin and γ-chitin seem to provide toughness, flexibility and motility and may have physiological functions other than support (Muzzarelli, 1977).

In both fungi and invertebrates, varying degrees of deacetylation have been determined, giving a continuum of structure between chitin (fully acetylated) and chitosan (fully deacetylated) (Peter et al., 1986).

Chitin is known to be one of the most decay resistant of all biomacromolecules. In natural environments, the firm associations with proteins and minerals determine the rates and pathways of degradation (Poulicek et al., 1998).

So now we've established there are actually three types of chitin, each with differing properties; and there is even two forms of chitin: chitin (acetylated) and chitosan (deactylated).

And some explanation on chitin in nature:

Chitin is often widely distributed within lineages due to its fundamental structural function in the organisms; however, it can also evolve divergent functions and structures. For example, in fungi and insects chitin is a primitive, indispensable character that plays a fundamental structural role in forming the cell wall and exoskeleton and thus is present throughout these two groups of organisms. However, within the fungi, chitin has different functions during cell wall formation, bud scar formation, and cell division (52). In mollusks, chitin is also widely distributed and is used for diverse structural functions, such as the formation of the shells in bivalves (33), the structural pens in squid (26), and the radula of snails (60).

This again, addresses @Coolthulhu 's comment

Otherwise all insects would be covered with acid-resistant plate.

So, we see in nature, just because something is superior for one organism, does NOT mean it is superior for others, or that other organisms would even develop the processes that form.

And now with biosilicification, research is mainly focused on extracting commercial methods of replicating the process, so it's not as cut and dry. However, the following quotes can sum it up:

Bacterial use of silicon:

Spores can survive under conditions unsuitable for growth and resist various kinds of stress. The spore coat is related to the impermeability to the spore's inner membrane; thus, the spore coat is thought to confer resistance to toxic chemicals (19). We compared the sensitivity of YH64 low- and high-Si spores to wet heat, UV irradiation, 5.0% H2O2, 0.5 N NaOH, and 0.4 N HCl. Only under the acidic condition was the viability of the high-Si spores increased compared to that of the low-Si spores (Fig. 4A to E). The viability of high-Si spores treated with a different acid solution (0.1 N HNO3) was also higher than that of low-Si spores (Fig. ​(Fig.4F),4F), indicating that the Si layer confers general acid resistance.

Roles of biosilicification:

Given that biosilica structures are usually very robust and resistant to most chemical and physical insults, it is challenging to extract proteins from these composites without degrading or chemically modifying them.

[DracoGriffin]

There are few problems with that approach:
Regular ants aren't the only source of chitin. Comparison to ants alone disregards all the more dangerous sources, such as wasps, razorclaws etc.

If people are hunting razorclaws for chitin, that's a separate issue. And generally other sources are a bit more randomly occurred, except for spiders and bees. Spiders are generally encountered in areas (basements) where there is generally other "rare" items associated with, and they are more-or-less the "guardians". Bees, likewise, are protecting the hive for honey/royal jelly, more uncommon/rare items. Survivors are generally not just seeking out chitin-sourced monsters, rather than those are just byproducts of what they are hunting for: rare items.

Acid ants may be more dangerous than plain ants, but it doesn't matter at the point they are used for crafting. Because of acid ants' "ACID" ability (as opposed to acid "gun" actor, acid bite or acid barf), their entire danger can be bypassed semi-trivially by wearing turnout boots+pants or hauling a 1 tile boardable vehicle to stand on in combat.

I did try the other acid specials, but the generic one they have now is the one that best suits what they are supposed to do, as well as the damage. And there are other trivial ways to access rare gear, like you've specified. In fact, there is a house that has a 50% chance to produce the real katana, that's not terribly rare and has basically zero risk associated with it (other than RNG of whether the house appears or not). And again, the ability of the ants isn't set in stone, it's merely my proof of concept that's better suited for others to fine-tune/balance. If you have a better special attack that mimics what they're supposed to do and not trivially circumvented, please let me know so I can change it.

Having the new items be overall somewhat better (acid resistance is useful), but still worse at pure physical resistance, would avoid all those problems, while still keeping a reward.

And again, the acid chitin has essentially two layers of protection; one of hardened chitin (minimal acid resistance but high bash/cut) and the other one of silicon (high acid resistance but moderate bash/cut). Perhaps I can try using both as materials: CHITIN, ACIDCHITIN and see what values calculate out to.

[Coolthulhu]

In fact, there is a house that has a 50% chance to produce the real katana, that's not terribly rare and has basically zero risk associated with it (other than RNG of whether the house appears or not).

This isn't perfect, but you shouldn't be using bad examples to wedge in more of them.
What you're doing here is devaluing the whole line of items by introducing strictly superior alternatives.
You could easily avoid it by making your items generally better, but not strictly better: acid resistance is very useful, meaning you can easily sacrifice a few points of armor/encumbrance and still "win".

Reward for acid ants is one thing, but don't remove the reward for already existing enemies. You could easily have both by striking a balance between the two.

I did try the other acid specials, but the generic one they have now is the one that best suits what they are supposed to do, as well as the damage.

Those are mutant ants, they don't need to directly mimic real life. By creating a custom weapon+bullet, then making an attack actor (see turret for example), you could have them spit small, accurate "bullets" of acid. This would:

• Prevent rubber boots from trivially defeating ants, since they could strike body parts now
• Allow adding meaningful differences between soldiers and workers (damage per "bullet")
• Make acid ant armors other than legs and feet actually useful for something other than protection from gases/glares
• Make acid ants more energy-efficient, which is more important for big animals which can't feed a whole colony with one rodent corpse
• Not prohibit having the acid field or acid barf - you can have many attacks per critter

And again, the acid chitin has essentially two layers of protection; one of hardened chitin (minimal acid resistance but high bash/cut) and the other one of silicon (high acid resistance but moderate bash/cut). Perhaps I can try using both as materials: CHITIN, ACIDCHITIN and see what values calculate out to.

It would make sense for it to be "heavy chitin armor" then. This would set those two apart in a meaningful, "fun", realistic way:

• Regular chitin would be unencumbering, purely physical, slightly easier to craft
• Silica chitin would be encumbering, more "rounded" in resistances but with all of them higher (because encumbrance), slightly harder to get

Alternatively, you could have the silica chitin resist one physical type much less than the other. Say, make it better at resisting cuts (it's kinda like ceramic), but worse than regular chitin of same encumbrance at bashes.

Either way, "chainmail vs scalemail" is much more interesting than "platemail +1 vs platemail +2".

[DracoGriffin]

This isn't perfect, but you shouldn't be using bad examples to wedge in more of them.
What you're doing here is devaluing the whole line of items by introducing strictly superior alternatives.
You could easily avoid it by making your items generally better, but not strictly better: acid resistance is very useful, meaning you can easily sacrifice a few points of armor/encumbrance and still "win".

I altered the values if you haven't reviewed them again.

Reward for acid ants is one thing, but don't remove the reward for already existing enemies. You could easily have both by striking a balance between the two.

Again, survivors should be encountering all other chitin specific enemies much more readily than they should be encountering acid ants; they are meant to be rare, and if they aren't for whatever reason, then that needs to be tweaked. As it is now, I haven't encountered them outside of debug playtests.

Those are mutant ants, they don't need to directly mimic real life. By creating a custom weapon+bullet, then making an attack actor (see turret for example), you could have them spit small, accurate "bullets" of acid. This would:

If we're not mimicking real life here, then a lot of the other closed PRs should be re-evaluated. A lot of what has been accepted is based on some sort of factual basis, I mean, just look at guns and ammo and the endless scrutiny -- all based basically in real life circumstances. If we can develop other areas that effectively, why suddenly begin to ignore it like you're suggesting here? That's what those Formica ants do, and acid ants are based off of that species. In terms of developing a NEW special just for this, that's beyond my ability to do and welcome anyone else to change it or offer code suggestions.

It would make sense for it to be "heavy chitin armor" then. This would set those two apart in a meaningful, "fun", realistic way:

But it's not "heavy chitin", it's more or less an organic alloy, just like with bronze and steel and so on. And that'd be less realistic, less "fun", and more just derived game design. If and when material components become useful in crafting (like Dwarf Fortress' crafting system of making the same products, but different materials which change into inferior/superior results), are you going to suggest that making a spear out of steel will be meaningful, fun and realistic by suggesting the stats would be the same as an iron one?

Either way, "chainmail vs scalemail" is much more interesting than "platemail +1 vs platemail +2".

You may want to read up on the differences between the two. Mail armor was essentially better than scale, but it was to be worn under, and scale wasn't very useful in overlaying mail (additional weight, no real benefit) and then reinforcing got better and plate basically overtook scale. So not sure how this example plays out, since you generally would wear mail underneath platemail. Also some light reading on differences of "chain mail".

So essentially following that logic, chitin is to scale mail, as acid chitin would be to chain mail. One is superior to the other.

[Coolthulhu]

I altered the values if you haven't reviewed them again.

Would be useful to see them in a table instead of having to divine them from the changes. Tables are always helpful.
https://github.com/adam-p/markdown-here/wiki/Markdown-Cheatsheet#tables
You can spawn the items in the game (to see their exact stats) in debug menu.

Again, survivors should be encountering all other chitin specific enemies much more readily than they should be encountering acid ants; they are meant to be rare

"Rare but very good" is the perfect way to ruin things, as evidenced multiple times before, with pretty much all the gamebreaking items. "Semi-rare but rather good" is much safer.

If we're not mimicking real life here, then a lot of the other closed PRs should be re-evaluated.

There are multiple ways to mimic real life. The stricter you try to do it, the less creative you necessarily are. You're upscaling ants to huge size, you already failed at strict realism and hard sci-fi, so why not go for fun?
Plus, spitting acid AT things is actually a better fit of what is happening than making acid puddles spread under things' legs, which is a gamey thing derived from Spitter special infected from L4D.

I could describe the code side (preferably on forums) if you're willing to go that way. It may require some C++, but I could implement the necessary C++ components during the weekend.

But it's not "heavy chitin", it's more or less an organic alloy, just like with bronze and steel and so on.

It's stiffer so it fills the role of heavy chitin. More restrictive = "heavy" in game terms (more encumbering).

are you going to suggest that making a spear out of steel will be meaningful, fun and realistic by suggesting the stats would be the same as an iron one?

No, more like you'd be saying that halberd should be strictly better than spear, while I'd be saying we should have both fulfill different roles.
You aren't objective here, it's just your opinion (that your stuff should be better) vs my opinion (choices are more fun than better vs worse).

If and when material components become useful in crafting (like Dwarf Fortress' crafting system of making the same products, but different materials which change into inferior/superior results)

I actually designed and implemented some features in this general direction. But putting materials on a 1D line (better vs worse) really doesn't fill me with enthusiasm to continue.
DF had some actually fun choices: silver maces (best armor piercing) vs steel maces (good overall) vs axes (limb removal) vs spears (organ damage) vs swords (choppy+stabby) vs wrestling (weak damage but occupies targets).
Material system is worthless if it is all about strictly better vs strictly worse. "More available" and "easier to craft" don't count.

[DracoGriffin]

Would be useful to see them in a table instead of having to divine them from the changes. Tables are always helpful.
https://github.com/adam-p/markdown-here/wiki/Markdown-Cheatsheet#tables
You can spawn the items in the game (to see their exact stats) in debug menu.

Not often seen in other PRs, but here goes:

Chitin values:

Raw Material	Density	Bash Resist	Cut Resist	Acid Resist
Chitin	10	3	4	6

	Encumbrance	Bash Resist	Cut Resist	Acid Resist	Env. Protection	Material Thickness
Chitinous Helmet	10	12	16	2	4	4
Chitinous Armor	10	12	16	0	0	4
Chitin Arm Guards	10	9	12	1	2	3
Chitinous Gauntlets	12	12	16	2	4	4
Chitinous Boots	14	12	16	2	3	4

Acid chitin previous values (values in parentheses are modified from previous table):

Raw Material	Density	Bash Resist	Cut Resist	Acid Resist
Biosilicified Chitin	15 (+5)	3	4	8 (+2)

	Encumbrance	Bash Resist	Cut Resist	Acid Resist	Env. Protection	Material Thickness
Biosilicified Chitin Helmet	13 (+3)	15 (+3)	20 (+4)	5 (+3)	6 (+2)	5 (+1)
Biosilicified Chitin Armor	13 (+3)	15 (+3)	20 (+4)	2 (+2)	2 (+2)	5 (+1)
Biosilicified Chitin Arm Guards	13 (+3)	12 (+3)	15 (+4)	2 (+1)	3 (+2)	4 (+1)
Biosilicified Chitin Gauntlets	15 (+3)	15 (+3)	20 (+4)	5 (+3)	6 (+2)	5 (+1)
Biosilicified Chitin Boots	18 (+4)	15 (+3)	20 (+4)	4 (+2)	5 (+2)	5 (+1)

Most recent values (values in parentheses are modified from previous table):

Raw Material	Density	Bash Resist	Cut Resist	Acid Resist
Biosilicified Chitin	15	3	4	13 (+5)

	Encumbrance	Bash Resist	Cut Resist	Acid Resist	Env. Protection	Material Thickness
Biosilicified Chitin Helmet	15 (+2)	15	20	5	4 (-2)	5
Biosilicified Chitin Armor	15 (+2)	15	20	3 (+1)	2	5
Biosilicified Chitin Arm Guards	15 (+2)	12	15	3 (+1)	2 (-1)	4
Biosilicified Chitin Gauntlets	18 (+3)	15	20	5	4 (-2)	5
Biosilicified Chitin Boots	21 (+3)	15	20	4	3 (-2)	5

So you can see I lowered the EP values, while maintaining the Acid Resist, but any further changes is a bit tricky since Acid Resist and EP are tied together in the formula, so I'd have to pump the material acid_resist to absurb levels just to offset that formula so equipment gets little EP but still achieves a high acid resist.

And yes, I use debug testing to see what everything turns out.

I could describe the code side (preferably on forums) if you're willing to go that way. It may require some C++, but I could implement the necessary C++ components during the weekend.

Like I've stated, I have no problem with others offering suggestions to improve or outright changing it themselves. This is all just proof-of-concept with real world science and facts to apply rather than "Hey, this is a neat idea, this should be in the game because aliens and sci-fi magic".

No, more like you'd be saying that halberd should be strictly better than spear, while I'd be saying we should have both fulfill different roles.
You aren't objective here, it's just your opinion (that your stuff should be better) vs my opinion (choices are more fun than better vs worse).

No, you stated

Either way, "chainmail vs scalemail" is much more interesting than "platemail +1 vs platemail +2".

And I showed proof that one was superior to the other. And in terms of your new example, they both fulfill the same role of attacking as a reach weapon.

[Coolthulhu]

Not often seen in other PRs

Most other PRs don't try to alter balance of items that someone spent significant time tweaking. Tables are useful when someone changes numbers that are considered to be good.
Thanks

So you can see I lowered the EP values, while maintaining the Acid Resist, but any further changes is a bit tricky since Acid Resist and EP are tied together in the formula, so I'd have to pump the material acid_resist to absurb levels just to offset that formula so equipment gets little EP but still achieves a high acid resist.

It's OK. Acid resistance calculation is weird because at the point of writing, I had to cover a lot of existing items with one formula. No one suggested anything different, so I went with this env*material.
As for the new values, they look better. The boots and main armor still look a bit too good for me, but I won't fight over those few last points.
You can buff gauntlets and arm guards if you want - those do not really benefit from acid resistance.

And in terms of your new example, they both fulfill the same role of attacking as a reach weapon.

You can have multiple ways of doing that. Slow and heavy chopping attack, fast and weak stabbing attack, slower stabbing attack with more reach, extra attack effects when attacking at point blank.
All of those interact differently with encumbrance, enemy armor, player skill, enemy count and placement.
Sure, in the end it's mostly about dps. But not JUST dps and certainly not just "raw" dps (at 0 encumbrance, 0 skill and 0 dexterity).

I believe same design style should be used for armors. Strictly physical, 100% coverage, environmental, heavy, light, cutting (and stabbing), well rounded, utility, unreliable (low coverage), blocking - that's a lot more interesting than typical RPG "plate vs leather".

[DracoGriffin]

It's OK. Acid resistance calculation is weird because at the point of writing, I had to cover a lot of existing items with one formula. No one suggested anything different, so I went with this env*material.
As for the new values, they look better. The boots and main armor still look a bit too good for me, but I won't fight over those few last points.
You can buff gauntlets and arm guards if you want - those do not really benefit from acid resistance.

Good to hear, it took me awhile to figure out the formula, but I think it's been figured out.

I think we'll split the difference, I don't want to improve gauntlets/arm guards any more since they'll start going past other equipment that should be better suited for protection (the safest way to improve gauntlets/arm guards would be to increase material thickness by 1, but then the stats would jump up another factor, since half-stepping/half-measures isn't something plausible yet).

Other than that, I think this is all done, don't see anything else to fix. Appreciate the time for a review.

I could describe the code side (preferably on forums) if you're willing to go that way. It may require some C++, but I could implement the necessary C++ components during the weekend.

If this still on the table, we can work on it in a separate PR to playtest and debug.

[Coolthulhu]

Made a thread about ant spit:
https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-and-gun-critters-with-weird-damage-types-in-context-of-acid-ant-spit/15168

Not much about the balance, just the technical details. Balance has to be figured out somewhat empirically.

[illi-kun]

@Coolthulhu do you have any objections about this PR?

[illi-kun]

Did you test your own PR? Debug message states this assignment doesn't update the value (value of environmental protection of "armguard_chitin" is also 2, so no need to write the same here).
Please run the game and clean up everything causing these debug messages.

Also, you can use special fields "relative" and "proportional" like this:

    "relative": { "volume": 1, "warmth": 5, "material_thickness": 1 },
    "proportional": { "weight": 1.125, "price": 1.25, "encumbrance": 1.5 }

Technically, it will give the same results, but in case of review of regular chitin armor, the biosilicified version will be rebalanced automatically.

[DracoGriffin]

I won't have time to look at this more fully for a few days, but instead of waiting even more, where is this debug message stating this so I can review it? I was not aware of such a thing.

[illi-kun]

It appears on the screen right after loading the game with your changes. Just run the game and you will have no choice to avoid them.

[DracoGriffin]

Ok, I realize what you mean, the errors that prompt. I wasn't getting these errors because I had all these changes confined within a mod, but once I overwrote the core files instead, I got the errors you were referring to.

Also, I'd recommend adding the relative and proportional to JSON doc files.

[DracoGriffin]

Did you test your own PR? Debug message states this assignment doesn't update the value (value of environmental protection of "armguard_chitin" is also 2, so no need to write the same here).
Please run the game and clean up everything causing these debug messages.
Also, you can use special fields "relative" and "proportional" like this:
"relative": { "volume": 1, "warmth": 5, "material_thickness": 1 },
"proportional": { "weight": 1.125, "price": 1.25, "encumbrance": 1.5 }
Technically, it will give the same results, but in case of review of regular chitin armor, the biosilicified version will be rebalanced automatically.

Retested it outside being within a mod and caught those debug errors. However, I am getting this error:

And not entirely sure how to resolve it; I added a line in item_factory.cpp that hopefully resolves the issue, but I'm on Windows, so not sure to compile to test that line out.

Otherwise, everything has been adjusted to the new lines as specified.

[illi-kun]

It seems that copy-from doesn't work in materials definition:

Removing copy-from part by explicit definition of material fixes this issue, so I propose to use this as a quick patch.

[DracoGriffin]

Reverted materials copy-from flag per illi-kun's correction -- seems like materials.json doesn't like that flag for now.

edit: No errors are prompting in my testing.

[illi-kun]

We definitely need much shorter names for all of these biosilicified items. No need to change it right in this PR but please think about it anyway.

[DracoGriffin]

Yeah, I looked around for shorter names, but couldn't find anything other than just simply "hardened", "acid-tempered", "resistant chitin", etc. As far as I know, there isn't a cleaner shorter name for biosilicification, but I do agree with you. Maybe even "bios-chitin" but then that might just create confusion unless there is a mention of it in the description.

[Coolthulhu]

The "bio" part isn't needed.
"Acid chitin" could be a good common name.