Creates the medieval content pack

[John-Candlebury]

This removes the vanilla recipes and spawnlists for several medieval weapons and moves them to this mod or rather "Content pack", the items themselves remain in the game, so you should be able to debug them in even with it activated (if you like feel like cheating).

[Zireael07]

I'd argue that out of the five items you mentioned, only the katana (and possibly rapier) should stay. The zweihander is a medieval German sword and plate armor went out of use just after Renaissance rolled by.

Still, a move that should make many people happy.

[Lain-]

What about medieval armor?

[macrosblackd]

The Katana, Rapier, and Quivers should stay in the core game. These all have present day counterparts.

[John-Candlebury]

Took all to the mod except those three due to the Grandfather clause, IMO they have been there long enough for me to simply remove them. But now that I rethink it, doing that is kind of hypocrital in a way.

The armors except the ornamental went into it too, the quivers are still in vanilla game, the katana will perhaps get moved into he mod as well as the Rapier.

[Zireael07]

I agree with macrosblackd, to make my point clearer.
The ornamental armor doesn't really belong the core game (has no present-day counterpart apart from LARP)

[BimKirstie]

Quivers should stay in the core game, and possibly katanas as lots of people do have ornamental ones about.
Rapiers in any sort of viable weapon form are pretty much non-existent. Even so, there's no point in not putting Rapiers into a mod, as anyone who wants them will probably be happy to activate the mod.

[KA101]

Watch that excess tab! Notepad++ has a setting for tab=spaces; set that on and to two spaces if you use N++.

[KA101]

Old Chinese design called the cho-ku-no, IIRC. Best include this too!

[macrosblackd]

I disagree, you can find these for hunting today as well.

[MisterFelixFox]

...hunting rapiers? Uh... perhaps a dedicated hunting rapier item could be made, but these ones refer to the old ones.

[KA101]

"authors".

Was there any effort to locate the authors involved and list them? (If so, I'm not aware of it.)

[John-Candlebury]

Actually yeah I tried to find them, the ones I found were you, Rivet and whales, but I don't know or couldn't find who added the nodachi and the zweihander.

Thanks for noticing the missing h

[KA101]

What was the reasoning here? Wooden tonfas are still very much in existence, last I checked.

[John-Candlebury]

A mistake, must have misread something while cutting

[macrosblackd]

I was talking about the repeating crossbows

[BimKirstie]

I really think some concessions will need to be made on realism for practicality. Yes, hunting rapiers, tonfas and the like may still exist, but they're not common place in New England, and it's sensible to assume that people that are fine with them in game would be fine with using the pack. Tonfas are also a bit superfluous because of police batons, which is what we'd mostly refer to them as.

[dwarfkoala]

Yeah, I say the rapier's gotta go. Don't see why the tonfa has to go, though, as they are almost the same thing as police batons and we don't have a police baton item, only tonfas.

[NaturesWitness]

I think removing the cudgel and the quarterstaves is excessive. Also, the tonfa, more commonly known as a nightstick, is hardly outdated. AFAIK, it's still standard issue for many police units.

[Zireael07]

Quarterstaves and the cudgel should stay, and the tonfas could be renamed to police baton...

[John-Candlebury]

Yeah moving tonfas was an already fixed mistake, and i could move the cudgel back, but quarterstaves? I do believe those belong in the mod, you can always play with it enabled if you want to use them.

And because this just removes the spawns and recipes and not the items themselves you can always cheat yourself a quarterstaff with it enabled.

[dwarfkoala]

If quarterstaves are included, I think the base quarterstaff is about as
good as you're going to get. The ironshod and the powered sound to me like
they should be moved to the mod.

[Zireael07]

Oh, right. slaps self on the head
Let's go ahead and merge this.

[BimKirstie]

I didn't know about a push to remove it, other than before the mod manager was in place. As Chase says though, this isn't what this commit is suggesting, and thinking this a prelude to content removal or any sort of comment on the content is the wrong way to take this.

Full disclosure - I did push a removal of sci-fi weapon recipes as I find(even with a sci-fi module) it a bit difficult to stomach that you can just assemble an incredibly advanced weapon with your hands and a few tools.

[Lain-]

I'd like to say much more but I guess people have said what need to be said. I agree with the desire to make the game more flexible, still this sudden rush to remove/decore content can be frustrating to content creators especially when they have contributed greatly to the game like KA101. At this point we can all agree that a DEFAULT flag which dictates a mod will be loaded by default would be a sensible compromise, the game by DEFAULT won't change but people now has the ability to customize it to their needs- best of both worlds IMO.

[Zireael07]

@KA101: No one here is saying that your content is bad or that it doesn't fit with the game. On the contrary, I think it's brilliant!
Especially as the modularization doesn't change the essence - it's going to function the same, as somebody upthread pointed out.
However, making the game more modular/flexible should stop flamewars raging on the forums.

[Chase-san]

@Zireael07 Well, reduce them at any rate.

[moist-zombie]

I'll be going ALL-ON with these switches, in any case.. In the wide world, there isn't a single thing that just isn't there.. I live in the middle of generic Arkansas and personally know.. at least 15 people who have multiple swords in their houses (and one of those is a working replica of Sephiroth's sword from Final Fantasy 7..) Also down the road from me a bit is an honest-to-God metalsmith who specializes in not only swords and blades but custom firearms :> If the zombs show, I'll be walking that way :) I personally love Cata because very nearly anything has a place in it.. Don't mind this change personally, anyway, so long as its beyond simple to toggle :>

Does this remove all recipes (and additional recipes) that include the featured items?? (Same for the sci-fi toggle also..)

[ClockworkZombie]

I'm in agreement with moist-zombie, maybe I only know weirdos, but I'd estimate that ~5% of the people I know have at least one of the items being moved in this changelist in their houses. I like the idea of being able to set flags and remove items, but this should be put on hold until the kinks with the mod manager have been worked out and a more formal decision as to whether mods should be additive or not is made.

Other more exotic/non-European stuff is debatable. There are quite a few SCAdians that fight in full-on steel or sport plastic Japanese armour. The bagh nakh in its traditional form would be pretty much impossible to find lying around, but there are plenty of X-Men style wolverine claw analogues to be found online. I believe there's also a CBM that mimics this weapon, so is that inappropriate?

My preference would be to get rid of near-duplicate items like the tanto, add those "removed" names to the description of the duplicate items (nightstick, for tanto), rename other things to be less mediaeval ("staff" or "stout hiking stick" instead of "quarterstaff"), and add some fluff text to the descriptions about the provenance of the items in question.

If we're going to get into anachronisms and what should be present in the world, we should also pull things like mp3 players and computer terminals in people's houses and office buildings. These have no place in the world of 2040 unless the world is mysteriously full of future hipsters.

Just my opinion. Everyone should also keep in mind that the people that don't like something are always going to be more vocal than the people that are fine with it.

[BimKirstie]

Moistzombie/ClockworkZombie: You're taking this to a logical extreme. Of course these things exist, but they're so rare that if you went into 20,000 houses, you probably wouldn't find one of the things listed (regardless of if you know a few people). These items are also very thematic in nature (just like sci-fi stuff, crazy weapons), and they're strongly divisive as for some people they feel too out of place and break immersion.

Regardless, I do get what you're saying but I imagine that the people who want them do actually want to be able to find these items and play with them (I will certainly from time to time), however for some people they're a bit immersion breaking as they're too common for reality.

Why not allow the flexibility for those who want them in to be able to have an ok chance at finding them and enjoying them, whilst those that don't want them can get rid of them? It's of no detriment to anyone who wants them in, and increases the happiness of those players that don't want them for whatever reason.

I don't think we should wait on this just because of some issues of pride which is pretty much all I can see as a negative to this (and, with the best will in the world, it's a pretty petty standpoint for a community game). The always on flag seems to have been sorted, so can we please pull this in?

[ClockworkZombie]

Some quick math based on the SCA's and USA Fencing's published information on 2013 membership and the most recent US census (yeah, this is just roughhand and is probably wrong, but at least somewhere near the right order of magnitude) indicates that, on average, 1 out of every 2,000 homes in the US would have an active, paying participant of one of these organizations with a full-on set of sport (or mediaeval reproduction) armour, at least one weapon, or both. These are just two organizations, albeit some of the larger ones and there is probably some overlap. Similarly, it would appear that there are over 20000 swords currently up for sale on Ebay (and another 250 spears or spear heads). That surprised me.

As for pride- I've not added any of this stuff, but I would very much like to see most of it stay. I can't say that I've contributed enough for my say to be worth much, though.

I would very much agree that any sort of armour you'd find, mansion, museum, pawn shop, or whatnot should be removed or minimized. At the very least it should be unwearable unless it has the "fits" modifier. Craftable armor should remain and the current item lists should be expanded on.

Anyways, don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but figured that I'd try and contribute where I felt I had some expertise. Just because you haven't encountered something or don't think it fits the tone of the game doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[BimKirstie]

Even by those numbers, it'd mean you'd only come across approximately one house with such an item every 2-3 games - If that, which I don't think medieval weaponry fans want. This isn't a realism thing though, it's a theme thing. DDA has been strongly divided (as this thread shows) over themes and what does and doesn't fit. This lets everyone win.

This doesn't remove anything. Not one thing. It just means that those who don't want it can conveniently turn it off if they want too at the push of a button. More than that, it actually allows for nicer modularisation for coding, as everything will be in different thematic files.

I think everything that needs to be said has been said at this point.

[dwarfkoala]

In fact, as far as I can tell, this PR is only waiting for #5953 for
merging. That PR will allow default mods to be created which are always on
on default when you start a new game.

[macrosblackd]

The real question, is how to do you make this backwards compatible
with 0.9 worlds?

On 2/3/14, dwarfkoala notifications@github.com wrote:

In fact, as far as I can tell, this PR is only waiting for #5953 for
merging. That PR will allow default mods to be created which are always on
on default when you start a new game.

---

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub:
#5909 (comment)

[i2amroy]

There are three things I'd like to see before this goes in.

1. Backwards compatibility, notably the answer to whether this breaks it or not.
2. If you turn this off do things break? I'm fairly sure there are a few places (such as mansions) that call for some of this stuff to spawn. Does that produce debug messages if this mod is off?
3. I'd like to see this set as a default mod now that #5953 is in.

[dwarfkoala]

1. Hrm, that is a serious question.
2. It's removed from the spawnlists and recipelists. You can debug in
   yourself the items, if you wish, but you should never actually find them
   ingame or be able to make them.
3. I'm pretty sure it was waiting for that.

[KA101]

Mansions have a small but significant chance to have their front entry contain suits of armor & weapons. In that sense, this stuff's hardcoded in. (For the European stuff, I think it's been that way since Whales' work. At least for the entire time I've been about--pushing a year now.)

[John-Candlebury]

1. I dont have an old safe file to confirm it, but I think the game takes the mod manager settings into account when you generate a world, as saves cannot be exported without the world I guess we would be all set.
2. Mansions and every hard other coded spawn place should have them without problem, that's the reason of why I only removed them from the "general" spawn lists and their recipes. If something hardocded calls them to spawn, they will spawn normaly (nothing I can do about it for now).
3. I agree

[KA101]

OK, all this needs is added to the default list then. How about it?

[macrosblackd]

Not until it is verified that it doesn't break existing worlds. Or, Kevin
says it's fine to break compatibility this release.
On Feb 5, 2014 6:12 PM, "KA101" notifications@github.com wrote:

OK, all this needs is added to the default list then. How about it?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com//pull/5909#issuecomment-34278233
.

[kevingranade]

If you change the world definition, it will break saves, this is expected.
If the mod is on the default list it's fine. Having said that I haven't
reviewed, and I seem to recall something about just moving recipes and such
to a mod, which doesn't make sense. Sorry if I'm getting this mixed up
with another PR, stuck with just phone access to internet for the past few
days.

[dwarfkoala]

I think that the only way for compatibility to keep going is if a world has
been created prior to a new version, the game assumes all mods marked
default were marked on for that mod, even if the save's mod definitions
does not include the new mod in it.

Let's put the current mod manager system to its limits.
I genned a world with Icecoon's weapons mod and dinomod. This will have
unique monsters, buildings, and items.

INITIAL TEST:
Works absolutely great. The items work, the monsters are scary, the
buildings gen.

TEST WITH MODS.JSON REMOVED:
Whoops, debugerrors. But that's to be expected.

src/savegame.cpp[389]: Loaded bad ter! save/Slemp/o.0.0; ter
fieldoffice_south
src/savegame.cpp[389]: Loaded bad ter! save/Slemp/o.0.0; ter
fieldoffice_east
src/savegame.cpp[389]: Loaded bad ter! save/Slemp/o.0.0; ter
fieldoffice_east
src/savegame.cpp[389]: Loaded bad ter! save/Slemp/o.0.0; ter
fieldoffice_south
src/monstergenerator.cpp[372]: Could not find monster with type
mon_compsognathus
src/monstergenerator.cpp[372]: Could not find monster with type
mon_compsognathus
src/monstergenerator.cpp[372]: Could not find monster with type
mon_compsognathus
src/monstergenerator.cpp[372]: Could not find monster with type
mon_gallimimus
src/monstergenerator.cpp[372]: Could not find monster with type
mon_gallimimus
src/monstergenerator.cpp[372]: Could not find monster with type
mon_gallimimus
src/mapgen.cpp[10542]: Error: tried to generate map for omtype , "nothing"
(id_mapgen )
src/monstergenerator.cpp[372]: Could not find monster with type
mon_tyrannosaurus

All of my items that were in the mods have been turned to nones. The
monsters have disappeared and the hulking dino corpses have become regular
human corpses. The terrain that's been pregenerated is unaffected, but
trying to go to the dinomod building throws a src/mapgen.cpp[10542]: Error:
tried to generate map for omtype , "nothing" (id_mapgen ) and generates the
tile made completely of floors. Game doesn't like that at all. It's
playable, but you cannot debugspawn in the items, monsters, or buildings
that were in the now removed mods.

If you remove items from a world, the world is fine but those items get
turned to nones. If you remove monsters from a world, the monsters turn
into oblivion.

Now, here's the most worrying part: If you save and reload a world that's
already genned a mod building, it corrupts the entire overmap into
nothings. You can travel in places that have already been genned just fine,
but if you go to somewhere new you get a src/mapgen.cpp[10542]: Error:
tried to generate map for omtype , "nothing" (id_mapgen ) and a map tile
that's all floors. Forever. If any mapgens have been defined in this
medieval content mod, in mod manager's current state it will irrevocably
screw up any world with medieval buildings.

That said, medieval content mod does not have any buildings in it, so it
should be fine, I suspect. But how exactly do we stop preexisting medieval
items from disappearing? We need to add it to preexisting worlds' mods.json
in order to have it loaded upon worldload, so in mod manager's current
state we CANNOT merge this.

TEST INJECTING MODS.JSON INTO A WORLD WITHOUT MODS
Works absolutely great. The items work, the monsters are scary, the
buildings gen. The only thing is that these items, monsters, and buildings
only gen in places ungenerated. That would have happened anyways if you
added items to the jsons. I think that if we add the mod to mods.json,
we'll be fine.

So, what

Problems that are identified:

• You can debugspawn in the items and the monsters, but not modloaded
  buildings. You can't debuggen jsonized buildings either, I suspect.
• A Mods.json is not made for a world without any mods.
• Mod content does not load if they are not designated to be loaded by
  mods.json. If something existed before that was not loaded, the game turns
  those buildings into nothings, the items into nones, and the monsters into
  oblivion.
• Mods added to the game retroactively do not place themselves into
  preexisting mods.json files, so if content is moved to a mod instead of the
  core game, when the item definitions are absent, all the items in the mod
  get turned to nones.
• If you save and reload a world that had its mod.json removed and
  preexisting mod-defined buildings, you end up with a world entirely of
  nothings.

[BimKirstie]

@kevingranade, I made a different PR a while back that moved sci-fi recipes to a pack as I thought you could just move those (which I realise you can't) - sorry about that. It was a late night and the ship was low on java fuel. This PR though is complete and working.

Regardless, dwarfkoala seems to have done a very extensive test to build on. It seems that these core content modularizations would be fine though.

[ChunkOfMeat]

This is because when the game tries to load an unidentified element, it does not do anything but write to debug. If instead undiscovered element set the default item - a wasteland, classic zombies and so it will not. I think you understand it yourself.

[KA101]

OK. Implement the Blacklist in this, if you would, please.

[dwarfkoala]

So it would be closer to Medieval Content Removal mod? I guess that's about the same, and will probably break less things.

[kevingranade]

I'm very interested in what history books you're referencing for this one.

[kevingranade]

Why exactly is the player unable to attach a leather handle to a large stick?

[kevingranade]

I'd argue for this one being in as well, disabling the ability to make a rough sword-like object doesn't make much sense.

[kevingranade]

Thanks for the restraint, makes sense for scythes to appear in old farmhouses.

[kevingranade]

Other than my quibbles about some items being removed that it would be reasonable for the player to make (or that are scifi weapons), this just needs to be incorporated with the default mod list so it still loads by default.