Belted-layer related balance changes

[Izicata]

Prevent the tool belt from being fitted. Currently the tool belt is objectively better than the tactical dump pouch, because the tool belt can be fitted and specialized military equipment can't.

Allow the tactical dump pouch and the fanny pack to be fitted.

Remove the chest rig from the belted layer. It's a vest, and is not anything like a belt.

Move the purse to the belted layer. It's a purse, and is not anything like a shirt.

Remove the holster from the belted layer. It doesn't cover anything, so having it be belted doesn't do anything.

Halve messenger bag and runner pack volume to 10 and 9, respectively, as well as their size when not worn to 2 and 3, respectively. They're still better than every single other 0-enc, non-fittable item on the belted layer.

Allow the scabbard to be fitted. There's currently no reason to use a scabbard, which offers up to the equivalent of 17 volume (when sheathing a nodachi), when you can use a messenger bag, which offers 20 volume and is easier to find. Even after the messenger bag's volume is halved, messenger bags are still the better choice for carrying most swords without this change; only the zweihander and the nodachi are larger than 10 volume.

Allow both large and small quivers to be fitted for the same reasons.

Prevent survivor-brand backpack and rucksacks from being fitted, increase the volume to match their non-survivor-brand counterparts. Remove the line about "extra pockets".

[KA101]

OFFS.

Survivor gear is customized to/by/for its creator. If it can't be fitted, I don't know what can. Holster's probably belted to discourage having too many things belted on.

If you allow the dump pouch to be fitted, then the argument about the tool belt being better due to being fittable fails. Likewise, the messenger bag would no longer be better than the scabbard once you halve its capacity. I'm sympathetic to fitting the scabbard.

But I am sick of constant capacity reductions. Not everyone enjoys having to schlep a shopping cart/wheelbarrow/whatever.

[Izicata]

No other backpack-type item is fittable for a very good reason. Some things just aren't able to have 0 encumbrance, and backpacks are one of them.

If the dump pouch isn't fittable, then it's only equivalent to the tool belt. I think that rare and specialized military gear should be better than something you can find in your garage.

I've already gone over your objection about the messenger bag.

Even after the messenger bag's volume is halved, messenger bags are still the better choice for carrying most swords without this change; only the zweihander and the nodachi are larger than 10 volume.

The holster being belted is pointless because it it doesn't cover anything; no matter how many other things you have belted on, it won't increase your encumbrance. It's just extraneous code that doesn't do anything.

Volume is an important limiter on the player, both for game balance and realism reasons. I, personally, am sick of the constant trend of allowing the player to carry more and more stuff for less and less encumbrance. If you don't want to shlep a shopping cart, maybe you should be carrying less stuff at once or wearing more duffel bags.

[KA101]

i don't recall an improvement in personal-capacity (unless you count the holsters, etc: I don't) for months. illi-kun already nerfed things badly enough.

[Izicata]

Power creep tends to happen over long periods of time, as people struggle to find new and exiting things to add to a game. The easiest way to make an addition worthy of attention is to offer the player more power. The entire set of survivor gear is an example of power creep.

Remember when the encumbrance system was changed, and fitted 0-enc items didn't incur layering penalties? That was changed for a reason. The entire belted/outer/normal layer system is another massive change to the encumbrance system, and naturally other changes need to be made to compensate.

Right now I've got just under 200 volume of carrying capacity with 0 torso encumbrance and that's just ridiculous.

[KA101]

Then don't wear one full layer over another. One trenchcoat, one pair of pants, and so on. We restrict that for footgear, so I don't think there's any reason why we should encourage overlayering elsewhere. (Especially when the survivor suit & cargo shorts would interfere with each other's pockets.)

[vache]

Really, at melee/dodge skills at any sort of reasonably capable level (3+), torso enc doesn't even really matter. Plus, on a related tangent, the armor from items seems to be WAY more effective at blocking all damage than it used to be, making dodge and encumbrance feel a lot less important than they used to be.

[Izicata]

Then don't wear one full layer over another.

Are you suggesting an actual change to the code, or that I should voluntarily restrict myself from breaking the game?

If it's the former, that's never actually been an option. The whole point of the encumbrance system is to not be a slot-based system where players choose one thing to wear on their torso, one thing to wear on their feet, etc., while still discouraging wearing three sets of platemail. Coding in an inability to wear more than one full layer would just mean you've got a regular-torso slot, a belt-torso slot, an outer-torso slot, etc.

the armor from items seems to be WAY more effective at blocking all damage than it used to be

This is also an example of power creep. A while ago I suggested that bullets deal some percentage of mitigated damage to the player as unmitigatable blunt force trauma, but it never seems to have been implemented and I don't have the coding skills to do it myself.

[Wishbringer]

Like the idea of having some form of kinetic energy transference.

[Izicata]

Well, if it were up to me, I'd just halve all the armour values. All of them.

I don't think that'd actually get merged, though.

[kevingranade]

Actually imposing layering penalties after the first item in a given slot/layer is a legitimate option. The point of allowing two items was to allow wearing a reasonable amount of clothing, such as a shirt and coat without encumbering yourself. That's now handled by layers, so it's no longer necessary to allow multiple items without penalty.

[Izicata]

DO IT
DROP THE HAMMER

[vache]

I support reasonable hammer-dropping.

[KA101]

No argument about Kevin's proposal.

[illi-kun]

Hey, cowboy, take away your hands from this tag. I'm counting of ten and then I'll shoot you.
/illi-kun puts his right hand on the revolver in his holster./

The reason of adding this tag to the holster is because any clothing without the tag is a regular layer item, but holster isn't a shirt, it's belted to the body, so the tag is here.

[Izicata]

But it doesn't do anything. Holsters don't cover anything, so they never actually layer with anything, so it'll never cause any encumbrance. The only thing this tag does is confuse people who look at it on the advanced armor management screen.

[illi-kun]

It's let people know that holster is belted to the body.

[Izicata]

That's exactly the problem. It's not actually belted to anything. It's on the belted layer, but that layer isn't actually on any part of the body.

[kevingranade]

Nothing but jewelry or similarly inconsequential items should have no body part at this point, holster should have leg coverage, though making it 0 enc and fitted is reasonable. (still has to contend with layering with other belts)

[illi-kun]

Commented inline, it should have leg coverage.

I don't want to do this because it makes holsters significantly worse than anything else - even a belt is better in this case, because a belt gives 2 universal storage volume and a holster gives 2 storage units for dedicated category. So, holsters do not cover body part(s) for the game balance.

Change proposed by Izicata is less evil.

[illi-kun]

I'm supporting the changes, and I agree with proposed nerf of armour values in general (divide everything on two is too rough approximation, you need a turret, a lot of clothing and time for testing the changes...)

[John-Candlebury]

Wait why do you halved the carrying capacity of the messenger bag?
Those are pretty big IRL too, think about it, and to be honest 20 volume is fitting. Do not force everyone in looting runs to use that same trenchcoat, cargo pants under shorts, survivor suit combo.

Problem is that the bigger bags and backpacks probably shouldn't share the same layer as belts , as you said it rends the smaller ones useless when you could wear a backpack for less encumberance and extra cargo space. It would probably be better if they use "over" or whatever the same layer of coats and capes.

I would be in favour of defining belted as anything small you strap on your thighs or hips. And move all pouches and bags to over.

[Zireael07]

I agree that the messenger bag should remain as is.

[gcaliber]

I agree with most of these changes other than the volume change to messenger bags and runner packs.

Bullets and explosives need to do more damage than they do now. Its silly that land mines can destroy a vehicle but if you walk over them in survivor gear you don't take any damage.

[kevingranade]

OK, I'll PR the change to layering allowance soon, (or someone else do it,
it's super simple)

[Izicata]

Alright, I'll revert the messenger bag/runner pack volume change, as that seems to be the most controversial change.

[kevingranade]

When I looked into the proposed nerf, I discovered that there are bugs in the layering code #7667 , how about seeing how it pans out with the system actually working as intended?

Prevent the tool belt from being fitted.

Counterproposal, tool holster? Makes the tool belt more unique, also it really is hard to carry much stuff other than specific tools in one of them.

Allow the tactical dump pouch and the fanny pack to be fitted.

Reasonable

Remove the chest rig from the belted layer. It's a vest, and is not anything like a belt.

Agree there.

Move the purse to the belted layer. It's a purse, and is not anything like a shirt.

Ditto

Remove the holster from the belted layer. It doesn't cover anything, so having it be belted doesn't do anything.

Commented inline, it should have leg coverage.

Halve messenger bag and runner pack volume to 10 and 9, respectively, as well as their size when not worn to 2 and 3, respectively. They're still better than every single other 0-enc, non-fittable item on the belted layer.

Agree with the consensus here.

Allow the scabbard to be fitted.

Works for me

Allow both large and small quivers to be fitted for the same reasons.

Same

Prevent survivor-brand backpack and rucksacks from being fitted, increase the volume to match their non-survivor-brand counterparts. Remove the line about "extra pockets".

They have a specific niche they're trying to fill, at the very least take a look at how they interact with the layering system working as intended.

[static1hazard]

The survivor backpack change would make it a sturdier, normal backpack... That's nothing like what the recipe suggests. You also don't need 3 fabrication and 5 tailoring for that. The idea behind it having less storage and being custom built is the no encumbrance penalty.

[Wishbringer]

Seems we need two different survivor backpack recipes (large and small).

[Izicata]

Counterproposal, tool holster?

I like that idea. Should it be able to store more than one tool?

Commented inline, it should have leg coverage.

Holsters are unable to be fitted and can only store pistols; there are only 2 pistols larger than 4 volume in the game. Making holsters cover the legs means that holsters would be almost always inferior to shorts, let alone cargo shorts.

Actually, since they can't be fitted, they'd always be strictly inferior to cargo pants.

They have a specific niche they're trying to fill, at the very least take a look at how they interact with the layering system working as intended.

Sure. I'll revert the survivor backpack change for now, and come back to it later after I see how it works with the fixed layering allowance.

[kevingranade]

Counterproposal, tool holster?

I like that idea. Should it be able to store more than one tool?

Yea, probably two tools and a small amount of storage besides?

Commented inline, it should have leg coverage.

Holsters are unable to be fitted and can only store pistols; there are only 2 pistols larger than 4 volume in the game. Making holsters cover the legs means that holsters would be almost always inferior to shorts, let alone cargo shorts.

Actually, since they can't be fitted, they'd always be strictly inferior to cargo pants.

So make them fitted and 0 enc like I said in the other comment. I'm pretty adamant on this principle, no non-trivial article of clothing should have 0 coverage. If you think holsters still deserve some kind of boost, think of something else you can do with them that will make people want to use them.

In the long run, what I want to happen here is having different move costs for retrieving items from their storage, a holster would be one of, if not the, lowest move cost storage items, which reflects their purpose in reality, FAST access to a critical item. Another fundamental change that will encourage their use is more comprehensive (but behind the scenes) checking for having "enough hands free" for various tasks, so if you want to crowbar open a door, you need to put up your gun first and take it back out afterwards, with a holster this is almost free, with drop pouches there would be some rummaging around. (simply opening a door only takes one hand, so you wouldn't need to put the gun up first).

Before you ask, I'm not willing to make an exception and keep the holster coverage-free in the meantime, it leads to nonsensical things like wearing two holsters on top of a set of drop pouches, which is what your proposal would encourage.

[Izicata]

Yea, probably two tools and a small amount of storage besides?

Sounds good.

[gcaliber]

Quivers as they stand are basically useless unless you really want to carry around very large amounts of exploding/flaming arrows. A 60 stack of heavy fletched field point arrows only takes up 6 volume. The problem may be that arrows take up a lot less volume than they really should, or that reloading a bow with arrows not in a quiver should have a large reload time penalty.

[Zireael07]

+1 for making holsters better.

[Izicata]

So, why hasn't this been merged yet? At this point, it's just a set of bugfixes.