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remove the swear word from the abbreviation that makes: DoES #555

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DefProc opened this Issue Aug 9, 2017 · 19 comments

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DefProc commented Aug 9, 2017

DoES currently stands for Do Epic Shit, to be (and I'm paraphrasing @amcewen here) "a challenge to the city". However using a common swear word as part of DoES's description limits it's usage to time and company where swearing is acceptable.

As DoES's intention is to be open and accessible to everyone, using swearing as a core part of DoES's identity goes against this intention and, as there is already a "work safe" version of DoES's meaning that is in common use: Do Epic Stuff, I believe that it would be better to change the official version to match that.

As the usage of the original meaning is already limited based on situation (I prefer using Do Epic Stuff when explaining DoES to newcomers, and even new signage in the workshop uses Do Epic Sh**) DoES should adjust the wording to be more welcoming and inclusive. And it would still possible to use the original by explaining that it "originally stood for Do Epic Shit" if necessary and appropriate in the situation.

As an aside, the original also occasionally throws up some interesting misinterpretation when not heard clearly, I've had people mis-hear the original as Do a pig shit and Do an epic shit on occasion!

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goatchurchprime Aug 9, 2017

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I mis-read the title of this issue as part of some form of advertising. "DoESLiverpool. It's a place safe for work. Not just for hacking and playing in the evening times."

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goatchurchprime commented Aug 9, 2017

I mis-read the title of this issue as part of some form of advertising. "DoESLiverpool. It's a place safe for work. Not just for hacking and playing in the evening times."

@DefProc DefProc changed the title from change DoES's subtitle to be "safe for work" to remove the swear word from the abbreviation that makes: DoES Aug 9, 2017

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stevesparrow Aug 10, 2017

I never use the official name, and wouldn't want to be explaining it to anyone. I've always assumed it's culturally appropriate for a community I've not really been a part of, but would happily not use it.

Sounds like an opportunity for a conversation.

stevesparrow commented Aug 10, 2017

I never use the official name, and wouldn't want to be explaining it to anyone. I've always assumed it's culturally appropriate for a community I've not really been a part of, but would happily not use it.

Sounds like an opportunity for a conversation.

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jackie1050 Aug 23, 2017

If all the letters were in the same case, they wouldn't have to stand for anything, but could still keep the history

jackie1050 commented Aug 23, 2017

If all the letters were in the same case, they wouldn't have to stand for anything, but could still keep the history

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ajlennon Aug 23, 2017

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DoES is pretty cool though compared to DOES ?

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ajlennon commented Aug 23, 2017

DoES is pretty cool though compared to DOES ?

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jackie1050 commented Aug 23, 2017

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stevesparrow Aug 23, 2017

Looking at it another way, we've never had any negacomments,

stevesparrow commented Aug 23, 2017

Looking at it another way, we've never had any negacomments,

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stevesparrow Aug 23, 2017

Negative comments, we've had no complaints, and it's perfectly workspace in most workplaces.

I think it does have a cultural background, it comes from a context, and even if it's not mine, I have no issue with it being true to itself, especially, as we've said already, because there are lots of different ways to use it.

The only other comments here are in favour of the status quo, and no-one else is speaking up in favour of change, or giving reasons why it should.

Does anyone else want to add anything in favour of change?

stevesparrow commented Aug 23, 2017

Negative comments, we've had no complaints, and it's perfectly workspace in most workplaces.

I think it does have a cultural background, it comes from a context, and even if it's not mine, I have no issue with it being true to itself, especially, as we've said already, because there are lots of different ways to use it.

The only other comments here are in favour of the status quo, and no-one else is speaking up in favour of change, or giving reasons why it should.

Does anyone else want to add anything in favour of change?

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stevesparrow Aug 23, 2017

Sorry, hitting enter on my phone.

Want to say anything in favour of change, before someone closes it?

stevesparrow commented Aug 23, 2017

Sorry, hitting enter on my phone.

Want to say anything in favour of change, before someone closes it?

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euanwithersby Aug 23, 2017

I've never had a problem with it. If an element of decorum was required, the S could always temporarily stand for Stuff - which is what @amcewen actually said to me the first time before correcting himself!

euanwithersby commented Aug 23, 2017

I've never had a problem with it. If an element of decorum was required, the S could always temporarily stand for Stuff - which is what @amcewen actually said to me the first time before correcting himself!

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stevesparrow commented Aug 23, 2017

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amcewen Aug 23, 2017

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For the record, not overly surprisingly, I'm in favour of keeping it as is.

I'm also liking @stevesparrow's newly coined word "negacomments" :-D

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amcewen commented Aug 23, 2017

For the record, not overly surprisingly, I'm in favour of keeping it as is.

I'm also liking @stevesparrow's newly coined word "negacomments" :-D

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DefProc Aug 23, 2017

I did open this issue because it's a problem I have: I don't like to, and avoid where possible, using "Do Epic Shit" when explaining DoES to new visitors. This has been built up over the time I've been doing that, because it makes me feel unprofessional to use swear words when explaining a community and business to people I've never met before. #negacomment

I particularly brought this up now because:

  • the Ethos Magazine video which features Adrian (apparently) unhappy with describing what DoES stands for on video (I'm aware that this could be nerves, but it's not how it appears to me). The transcript (from 0:10 to 0:20) is:

The kind of… the friendly one is: Do Epic Stuff. And the real one is… is a bit… erm… is is… Do Epic Shit.

  • The new instructional sign in the workshop — created by members of the community for use inside the space — uses asterisks in the swear word.

If a founder of the community isn't comfortable using the swear word to explain DoES's meaning in promotion for the space, and community members have chosen to omit use of the word inside the space, shouldn't we follow the community's lead, and adjust the "official" meaning to match the current use?

DefProc commented Aug 23, 2017

I did open this issue because it's a problem I have: I don't like to, and avoid where possible, using "Do Epic Shit" when explaining DoES to new visitors. This has been built up over the time I've been doing that, because it makes me feel unprofessional to use swear words when explaining a community and business to people I've never met before. #negacomment

I particularly brought this up now because:

  • the Ethos Magazine video which features Adrian (apparently) unhappy with describing what DoES stands for on video (I'm aware that this could be nerves, but it's not how it appears to me). The transcript (from 0:10 to 0:20) is:

The kind of… the friendly one is: Do Epic Stuff. And the real one is… is a bit… erm… is is… Do Epic Shit.

  • The new instructional sign in the workshop — created by members of the community for use inside the space — uses asterisks in the swear word.

If a founder of the community isn't comfortable using the swear word to explain DoES's meaning in promotion for the space, and community members have chosen to omit use of the word inside the space, shouldn't we follow the community's lead, and adjust the "official" meaning to match the current use?

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drfraz Aug 23, 2017

if you go back to the proto-Indo-European roots do can be seen as put, place or make & shit as skeyd or shed.
So 'Make epic shed!'
although stuff is derived from *(s)tewp- (“to push; prod; jab; stun; be amazed; hesitate; be irritated; stomp” which is also a good description of what goes on

drfraz commented Aug 23, 2017

if you go back to the proto-Indo-European roots do can be seen as put, place or make & shit as skeyd or shed.
So 'Make epic shed!'
although stuff is derived from *(s)tewp- (“to push; prod; jab; stun; be amazed; hesitate; be irritated; stomp” which is also a good description of what goes on

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stevesparrow Aug 23, 2017

It'll sounds like it'll be decided tomorrow - though the balance looks fairly clear.

stevesparrow commented Aug 23, 2017

It'll sounds like it'll be decided tomorrow - though the balance looks fairly clear.

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euanwithersby Aug 24, 2017

From my perspective, this is unnecessarily difficult. Simply have the external facing version as Stuff, I agree that it is a big professional hurdle to use a profanity when you don't know the recipient, the moment of decorum that I mentioned previously. For the community, why not stick to the original, asterisked if people want? It does reflect the DoES ethos and is unlikely to be a shocker for anyone who's spent any time around the community.

euanwithersby commented Aug 24, 2017

From my perspective, this is unnecessarily difficult. Simply have the external facing version as Stuff, I agree that it is a big professional hurdle to use a profanity when you don't know the recipient, the moment of decorum that I mentioned previously. For the community, why not stick to the original, asterisked if people want? It does reflect the DoES ethos and is unlikely to be a shocker for anyone who's spent any time around the community.

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ajlennon Aug 24, 2017

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Couple more ideas...

Doing ebrious stuff (Drinking a tad too much - happy birthday to you!)
Doing ecclesiastry stuff (Church thing - we're not all Aetheists)
Doing ecdysiast stuff (Striptease - not whilst I'm in the office please)
Doing éclaircissement stuff (enlightening people, some of the people, some of the time)

The list goes on but I think you can see we have options :)

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ajlennon commented Aug 24, 2017

Couple more ideas...

Doing ebrious stuff (Drinking a tad too much - happy birthday to you!)
Doing ecclesiastry stuff (Church thing - we're not all Aetheists)
Doing ecdysiast stuff (Striptease - not whilst I'm in the office please)
Doing éclaircissement stuff (enlightening people, some of the people, some of the time)

The list goes on but I think you can see we have options :)

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amcewen Aug 24, 2017

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The official name has always just been "DoES Liverpool". There were ways you could find out where it came from, but they're not the name.

People are free to use whichever formation they prefer, or jokingly claim that it's "top secret" and you have to become a trusted community member before you find out.

@DefProc, to clear up your uncertainty over my performance in the Ethos video, how I played that was entirely deliberate. Likewise, as the "community member" who laser-cut the sign in the workshop, I was completely aware of the option of "do epic stuff" and chose "do epic sh**" instead. So in that sense the "official" line is following what the community does.

"Do epic shit" is a call to arms to work on meaningful things and to strive to do your best work. It is a tiny bit controversial - it was chosen to be. That doesn't mean it can't ever be changed, but also that it wasn't chosen on a whim.

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amcewen commented Aug 24, 2017

The official name has always just been "DoES Liverpool". There were ways you could find out where it came from, but they're not the name.

People are free to use whichever formation they prefer, or jokingly claim that it's "top secret" and you have to become a trusted community member before you find out.

@DefProc, to clear up your uncertainty over my performance in the Ethos video, how I played that was entirely deliberate. Likewise, as the "community member" who laser-cut the sign in the workshop, I was completely aware of the option of "do epic stuff" and chose "do epic sh**" instead. So in that sense the "official" line is following what the community does.

"Do epic shit" is a call to arms to work on meaningful things and to strive to do your best work. It is a tiny bit controversial - it was chosen to be. That doesn't mean it can't ever be changed, but also that it wasn't chosen on a whim.

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amcewen Aug 24, 2017

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We discussed this briefly at the organisers meeting and agreed to leave things as is.

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amcewen commented Aug 24, 2017

We discussed this briefly at the organisers meeting and agreed to leave things as is.

@amcewen amcewen closed this Aug 24, 2017

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DefProc Aug 25, 2017

OK, it was certainly worthwhile to bring this up from my point of view — and to know as a result that it is reasonable to use the explanation that's most suitable for the situation; if (when) someone asks.

Thanks.

DefProc commented Aug 25, 2017

OK, it was certainly worthwhile to bring this up from my point of view — and to know as a result that it is reasonable to use the explanation that's most suitable for the situation; if (when) someone asks.

Thanks.

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