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Flotilla Friday,

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Flotilla Friday, 2021-09-24


  • what is hyperknowledge?
  • what is Project Clambake?
  • what is Flotilla?
  • when shall we meet?
  • what is MX?
  • The Press Conference
  • [flotilla] prefix for Flotilla mattermost channel
  • Flotilla website


  • IdeaLoom

"concept identity"

models of editing shared knowledge

"not resolving the differences"

related: IBIS, Topic Maps


Project Clambake

Clambake is testing out the merger of a dynamic mapping UI, robust web content curation, and powerful project hub to create a knowledge platform that connects people with the information and opportunities at the right time, in the right place and in the right way.

Another way it's been described: like [[Emergent Event Sensemaking]], but about longer-term things, rather than in-the-moment events.


weekly meetings, "open house"/"office hours" meetings

Next Tuesday, come hear the latest on how the Internet Archive and Starling Labs are forging paths through decentralized storage: Marc-Antoine Parent to Everyone (09:28) Thank you Peter! That was helpful Me to Everyone (09:28)

sensemaking index, Mark C, always incomplete

   88 call: Flotilla Friday: Friday, September 24, 2021

 3467 9:15 am
   97 9/24/21
    5 Flotilla
    5 jack park
    3 how the project started
    6 the press conference
   20 Wendy McLean
    3 Project Clambake
    3 the Clambake project
    3 all the things that people were sharing
    3 weaving it all together
    3 network of conversations
   46 Vincent Arena
    3 a longer shelf life
   10 Bentley Davis
   26 Michael Grossman
   17 Bill Anderson
   12 Marc-Antoine Parent
    3 do you have an open house
   15 Peter Kaminski
    3 to get people to connect and collaborate
    4 a map view
    3 a great test case
    3 a good definition of Flotilla
    3 different takes on the way you organize information
    3 generative discussions
    4 hyperknowledge
    3 my first collectigve intelligence project
    3 emerging concepts
    3 emerging concepts in a conversation
    3 selling the service of expert curators
    3 it gives the curators too much powerr
    3 here's how I see things
    3 the notion of concept identity
    3 not one but many networks
    3 last edit wins
    3 collective text
    3 the linearity of text
    3 a good many people
    3 not necessarily resolving the issue
    3 difference is a fact of life
    1 polarizing
    4 fringe
    9 reputation systems
    3 what is the boundary of hyperknowledge?
    8 different tools
    3 the philosophy behind hyperknowledge
    3 what people understood from it
    3 is this what you mean when you say this?
    3 we harmonize
    3 an empty goal
    3 useful conversation
    3 making explicit bridges
    3 speech act event queues
    3 this is what our community thinks about something
    3 this is what the community proposes
    3 supra communities
    3 an arbitrary lattice
    3 idea streams
    3 what most people say
    3 I want to favor synthesis
    3 the strategic thinking
    3 the federation view
    3 the divergence of multiple streams
    3 I'm handwaving a lot here
    3 voting mechanisms
    3 when we're thinking about interoperation
    3 that's another string
    3 these are streams
    3 concept boundaries are disputed
    3 a common core
    3 concept identity
    3 interoperating with other systems
    3 making some of those links very explicit
    3 a proposed interpretation
    3 proposed interpretation
    3 to do it at need
    3 progressive, partial formalization
    3 other communication acts
    3 media field
    3 media stream
    3 the structure for higher level thinking
    6 IPNS
    3 being part of an organization is time-bound
  100 what does this mean?
    3 presuppositions in your action plan
    5 more difficult conversations
    3 claims about claims

All these utterance events have a actual time and person, and slightly stored time and storing person

The structured collection of utterance events in evolutionary, progressive layering, is a pansophia

Zoom chat

09:05:56	 From Michael Grossman (he/him) : My connection isn’t stable here, I will be in and out, I’m afraid.
09:06:08	 From Peter Kaminski : (you don't need to sign in, just click the pencil or "both" icon at the top left)
09:06:21	 From Jerry Michalski : Mark and his MX in my Brain:
09:06:34	 From Marc-Antoine Parent : it's still private. should we at least add Mark?
09:06:44	 From Peter Kaminski : yes, we should add Mark
09:07:48	 From Peter Kaminski : and add a discussion about opening the FJB code to the FJB discussion queue...
09:09:51	 From Bill Anderson : for me reading Marc’s notes stimulates free-associations …
09:10:00	 From Marc-Antoine Parent : Sorry, had to leave for a package. Mark is now invited
09:10:16	 From Peter Kaminski : "the separation of feeling and thinking"
09:10:32	 From Peter Kaminski : "social memex"
09:10:50	 From Bill Anderson : start small, keep it simple, be successful
09:12:11	 From Peter Kaminski : (you don't need to sign in, just click the pencil or "both" icon at the top left)
09:12:22	 From Peter Kaminski : "Mark Carranza - Conference 2013 on Vimeo"
09:12:51	 From Bill Anderson : bi-directional links - still raise many different questions in many difference conversations
09:13:10	 From Wendy McLean, NY : +1 Bill
09:15:49	 From Jerry Michalski : the most civilized briefing I ever had was with a Silicon Valley startup run by an Australian. at 3pm his assistant showed up at the door. we proceeded to stop and do tea and biscuits 🙂
09:15:55	 From Peter Kaminski : "Clambake is testing out the merger of a dynamic mapping UI, robust web content curation, and powerful project hub to create a knowledge platform that connects people with the information and opportunities at the right time, in the right place and in the right way."
09:17:45	 From Peter Kaminski : Another way it's been described: like [[Emergent Event Sensemaking]], but about longer-term things, rather than in-the-moment events.
09:18:49	 From Peter Kaminski :
09:19:04	 From Peter Kaminski : (old link :-))
09:19:29	 From Vincent Arena :
09:19:33	 From Vincent Arena : Here’s the event link!!
09:22:13	 From Peter Kaminski : weekly meetings, open house meeting
09:22:27	 From Mark Carranza : Open house == Office hours
09:24:12	 From Vincent Arena : Take care everyone!
09:24:51	 From : I'm going to head to another meeting. I don't have any contributions yet but all sounds exciting. I might drop back in after my meeting.
09:25:58	 From Michael Grossman (he/him) : @vincent +1 to the open house idea
09:28:03	 From Mark Carranza : Next Tuesday, come hear the latest on how the Internet Archive and Starling Labs are forging paths through decentralized storage:
09:28:24	 From Marc-Antoine Parent : Thank you Peter! That was helpful
09:28:42	 From Peter Kaminski : the dweb decentralization event looks awesome
09:29:40	 From Jerry Michalski : do you meet next to the mummified remains of Vannevar Bush?
09:30:33	 From Jerry Michalski : juuuust succinct enough 🙂
09:30:44	 From Jerry Michalski : as simple as possible, but no simpler
09:30:46	 From Peter Kaminski : if you're ever in San Francisco, the Internet Archive building is an excellent place to visit
09:31:50	 From Michael Grossman (he/him) : Just to overwhelm us further, I’m attending this (sadly coincidental) event, and it is awesome. If you register, you can also see replays of it I believe.
09:31:52	 From Jerry Michalski : diff and merge
09:32:31	 From Mark Carranza : IBIS: Issue-Based Information Systems
09:32:51	 From Jerry Michalski : there’s a backstory to Unfinished you may enjoy reading, Michael:  (I figure lightly in the story)
09:33:21	 From Jerry Michalski : some of my best friends are texts!
09:33:25	 From Jack Park : which did not mention Engelbart’s Unfinished Revolution
09:34:01	 From Jerry Michalski : Engelbart’s? I don’t know of it. there’s a book by Dertouzos by that name...
09:34:39	 From Jerry Michalski : finding lots on it
09:34:44	 From Mark Carranza : Choral (?) explanations
09:34:54	 From Jerry Michalski : Coral? like the reef?
09:35:07	 From Jack Park : Unrev II was the second lecture series in his unfinished revolution. We gave those lectures at Stanford in 2000.
09:35:09	 From Jerry Michalski : Consensual, Polarizing or Fringe
09:35:27	 From Peter Kaminski :
09:35:36	 From Peter Kaminski : a modality we’ll call “choral explanations” (a term based on Ward Cunningham’s claim that federated wiki is a “chorus of voices”)
09:35:43	 From Jerry Michalski : tx!
09:36:13	 From Jack Park : google ‘unfinished revolution engelbart’
09:37:11	 From Peter Kaminski : Neurophysiologist William Calvin, who has an explanation (theory?) of how thought work, uses "chorus" in his explanation.  (Also natural selection, happening on top of competing choruses.)
09:37:22	 From Bill Anderson : semiotic triangle?
09:37:27	 From Peter Kaminski : "William H. Calvin, "The Emergence of Intelligence," Scientific American Presents (November 1998)"
09:38:16	 From Peter Kaminski : and "THE CEREBRAL CODE - Thinking a Thought in the Mosaics of the Mind"
09:38:40	 From Jerry Michalski : speech act event queues?
09:38:42	 From Mark Carranza : Speech act event queues?
09:38:54	 From Peter Kaminski : "Newly-cloned patterns are tacked onto a temporary mosaic, much like a choir recruiting additional singers during the Hallelujah Chorus. But cloning may “blunder slightly” or overlap several patterns — and that variation makes us creative. Like dueling choirs, variant hexagonal mosaics compete with one another for territory in the association cortex, their success biased by memorized environments and sensory inputs."
09:39:11	 From Jerry Michalski : ooooo, mosaics and choruses. music to my ears
09:40:01	 From Mark Carranza : Meme streams
09:40:04	 From Mark Carranza : Idea streams
09:40:33	 From Peter Kaminski : "THE CEREBRAL CODE by William H. Calvin (Chapter 11)"
09:42:57	 From Mark Carranza : @bill semiotic square?
09:43:27	 From Bill Anderson : @Mark not sure what you mean
09:43:44	 From Mark Carranza :
09:43:55	 From Peter Kaminski : a connection between Calvin, cortical columns, and natural selection as Calvin uses it: "Philosophy:Neural Darwinism - HandWiki"
09:44:20	 From Peter Kaminski : "faux friend"
09:44:27	 From Mark Carranza : The _illusion_ of clear categories
09:44:36	 From Peter Kaminski :
09:45:22	 From Jerry Michalski : Ship of Theseus (aka Theseus' Paradox)
09:45:43	 From Mark Carranza : To do it at need
09:45:53	 From Peter Kaminski : progressive, partial formalization
09:47:21	 From Peter Kaminski : web URLs = identifier for a mutable object
IPFS = identifier for immutable object (content-addressed)
how about an identifier to a history of versions of an object
09:47:30	 From Mark Carranza : Media Field & Stream
09:47:42	 From Jerry Michalski : is that like Mane & Tail?
09:48:23	 From Mark Carranza :
09:48:58	 From Peter Kaminski : (the hack for IPFS to point to a mutable object with history is IPNS,
09:50:10	 From Bill Anderson : i can understand what we want to do. what is it for?
09:51:30	 From Peter Kaminski : can we federate the work of debunking, explaining, etc.?
09:52:07	 From Peter Kaminski : streams, distributed index of streams, concept neighborhoods
09:53:02	 From Peter Kaminski : negotiated identity, rather than (the illusion of) stable identity
09:53:57	 From Peter Kaminski : listicles as a knowledge structure, a semantic layer above listicles
09:54:17	 From Jerry Michalski : this’ll be fun to do as GANs automatically generate zillions of slightly modified arguments 🙂
09:54:24	 From Wendy McLean, NY : @bill, for me it goes back to the example I gave of how a teacher would use it in the classroom.  This allows for concept exploration and supports more evolved discussion, knowledge integration and learning.
09:54:35	 From Peter Kaminski : individual knowledge units, and contentiousness around them, negotiating consensus
09:54:59	 From Bill Anderson : @marc-antoine: i have a ton of Q’s; i’ll get in touch w/ you
09:55:07	 From Peter Kaminski : pansophia
09:55:33	 From Jerry Michalski : and here I thought pansophia was a dish of sautéed owl...
09:57:15	 From Peter Kaminski : zen buddhist practice
- shared knowledge
- personal understanding before shared understanding

spinoza, one big connected nature
09:58:34	 From Peter Kaminski : psychodynamics of groups, there's no group, there's just a roomful of individual people
09:59:11	 From Jerry Michalski : the Big Fungus?
09:59:30	 From Peter Kaminski : "curated views"
09:59:34	 From Wendy McLean, NY : Curated view = individual perspective
10:00:09	 From Wendy McLean, NY : Collective perspective = system perspective
10:00:53	 From Peter Kaminski : cf. "curated view" and "shared vision"
10:00:56	 From Jerry Michalski : goo views
10:01:25	 From Peter Kaminski : vs. "common view"
10:01:57	 From Peter Kaminski : no such thing as a "self"; i exist in my interactions with my environment and with others
10:02:18	 From Peter Kaminski : "acts of harmonization"
10:02:19	 From Jerry Michalski : goal: higher-scale many-to-many
10:03:20	 From Peter Kaminski : other people have claimed to have gain something from entering the (knowledge space) through a particular curated view
10:03:20	 From Wendy McLean, NY : Or goal: ongoing dance of individual sense making with continual curated shared view
10:03:40	 From Michael Grossman (he/him) : M-A this is so inspiring, would love to talk more. Also is there any benefit for you—even possible interoperability—in this work? (which is also being utilized by and
10:04:09	 From Marc-Antoine Parent : Michael: thank you, not familiar with this work, will read before answering
10:05:48	 From Jack Park :
10:07:02	 From Jack Park : we are now in the space of Hawkins and Thousand Brains.
10:07:14	 From Jack Park : - folding
10:08:11	 From Jack Park : gotta run. believe it or not, the beach is calling…
10:08:14	 From Peter Kaminski : the "fringe" of conversation or concept
10:08:17	 From Peter Kaminski : +1 Jack!
10:08:25	 From Jerry Michalski : make sure it’s not Sirens…
10:10:28	 From Bill Anderson : collaboration w/o man-splaining
10:17:24	 From Jerry Michalski : Massive, MX, Factr, other?
10:17:56	 From Bill Anderson : a contribution i can make is to learn to listen better
10:19:05	 From Peter Kaminski : +1 Bill
10:19:21	 From Peter Kaminski : "Original Blessing", book by Matthew Fox
10:19:53	 From Bill Anderson : and today i need to leave in the next minute
10:20:17	 From Peter Kaminski : thanks, Bill
10:21:23	 From Jerry Michalski : Everything falls apart. (Pema Chodron)
10:21:30	 From Jerry Michalski : What is to be done? (Lenin?)
10:21:52	 From Jerry Michalski : if you’re not worried, you’re not awake
10:22:02	 From Wendy McLean, NY : +1 Jerry
10:22:40	 From Jerry Michalski : but I would love a project description I can try to fund. a tile piece for the big mosaic
10:22:55	 From Wendy McLean, NY : Yes, Jerry.  Let’s do that!
10:23:08	 From Jerry Michalski : it can be a bite-sized project. not the whole enchilada (or fungus)
10:23:16	 From Jerry Michalski : tapas
10:23:18	 From Wendy McLean, NY : Yup!
10:23:23	 From Peter Kaminski : "how much do we prioritize global optimization over local optimization?"
10:24:21	 From Wendy McLean, NY : I’m partial to local or even individual.  If we can find a way to get that to work, then scale it up.
10:24:58	 From Jerry Michalski : whatever democracy actually is… ;P
10:25:06	 From Wendy McLean, NY : It’s also where people will be most motivated to engage.  My life improved, my communities live improved, I’m ready to collaborate on the global view
10:25:07	 From Peter Kaminski : deliberative democracy needs auditability
10:25:14	 From Jerry Michalski : +1
10:26:30	 From Jerry Michalski : just a little tilla?
10:29:39	 From Jerry Michalski :
10:29:40	 From Marc-Antoine Parent :
10:29:51	 From Michael Grossman (he/him) : Michael@factr,com
10:30:00	 From Michael Grossman (he/him) :
10:30:04	 From Wendy McLean, NY :