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Add Karsthafen by -sniper- #15

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@MinetestSam
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commented Jan 24, 2019

Karsthafen (made by solars) like map made by -sniper
Related to #12

Add Karsthafen by -sniper-
Karsthafen (made by solars) like map made by -sniper
@Thomas--S

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commented Jan 25, 2019

According to the forum topic of Karsthafen map, the original map is published under CC-BY-SA 4.0.

As far as I know, we should credit solars as original author because of this.

However, please note: I am not a lawyer.

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commented Jan 25, 2019

I do agree with you, credit should be given to solars since he is the creater of the original Karsthafen

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commented Jan 25, 2019

I agree; should we just add the attribution to the name?

e.g.
name = Karsthafen (adapted from a Minetest world by solars with the same name)

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commented Jan 25, 2019

Yes and add solars to authors
author = solars, -sniper-

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commented Jan 25, 2019

I don't think that's right. While this map was adapted from solars' map, solars hasn't directly contributed to making this map, and shouldn't be added to the authors alongside -sniper-.

Note: I'm not a lawyer either :)

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commented Jan 26, 2019

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commented Feb 3, 2019

Tested this map.

  • I like the city-style structures, but the huge lake of water in the middle pushes all the buildings to the edges of the map, and the resultant map doesn't reflect the city-style much. A different part of the original city can be made into a map if possible, to get a full city map.
  • A city-map is nothing without the buildings in it. Having the buildings to be diggable allows players to raze them down to the ground, making the map plain and tasteless, IMO. I suggest making the buildings indestructible.
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commented Feb 3, 2019

Tested this map.

* I like the city-style structures, but the huge lake of water in the middle pushes all the buildings to the edges of the map, and the resultant map doesn't reflect the city-style much. A different part of the original city can be made into a map if possible, to get a full city map.

I will try to do this if possible

* A city-map is nothing without the buildings in it. Having the buildings to be diggable allows players to raze them down to the ground, making the map plain and tasteless, IMO. I suggest making the buildings indestructible.

I agree with you, but this is practically imposible. There are thousands of nodes to replace.

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commented Feb 3, 2019

A city-map is nothing without the buildings in it. Having the buildings to be diggable allows players to raze them down to the ground, making the map plain and tasteless, IMO. I suggest making the buildings indestructible.

I actually think that destructable buildings might also lead to a good gameplay experience because this allows players to form the buildings according to the tactical needs.

I don't think that a "plain map" with completely destroyed buildings will occur often as it will take quite a bit of time to remove all the buildings.

Finally, it also adds to the realism because buildings will get slowly destroyed during fight.

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commented Feb 4, 2019

I actually think that destructable buildings might also lead to a good gameplay experience because this allows players to form the buildings according to the tactical needs.

Dodging through buildings is an inherent part of city-style maps' play-style. It's much more challenging to defend the flag from enemies approaching from multiple alleyways (and at multiple levels), than in situations where the base is on natural terrain.

Personally, I haven't seen that many players building buildings (no pun intended) to enhance the base's defences, apart from the base itself, except for walls. And this map should pose an additional challenge for those who actually do build buildings apart from the base itself.

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commented Feb 4, 2019

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commented Feb 4, 2019

Do you have any idea how to make the buildings indestructible? I don't like the idea to re-build whole city.

@MinetestSam

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commented Feb 4, 2019

Use World Edit. Select the region and convert the blocks to indestructible replacing the destructable block. For example, //replace dirt ctf_map:dirt (I think?)

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commented Feb 4, 2019

Use World Edit. Select the region and convert the blocks to indestructible replacing the destructable block. For example, //replace dirt ctf_map:dirt (I think?)

But this will make whole map indestructible. I think selecting only city is impossible because of relief. There also isn't all indestructible variant of nodes (wool, wooden doors, ...)

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commented Feb 4, 2019

No it won't convert the whole city. It will only convert dirt into indestructible dirt

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commented Feb 4, 2019

This is image of whole Karsthafen (original map). Karsthafen is the biggest city in solars karsthafen map.
https://ibb.co/RBcbMw0

@Thomas--S

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commented Feb 4, 2019

It seems like there is a church in the currently selected part of the map.

I don't know if this is really a good idea because it might hurt the feelings of religious players if they have to fight inside a church and additionally, it might also be a problem for players of other religions/atheists.

This might probably also result in players destroying/modifying the church to make fun of religion etc.

So, while I support the idea of making a part of Karsthafen a map for CTF, in the current state I have to disapprove this. 👎

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commented Feb 5, 2019

@JostP Even wool has an indestructible variant with the prefix ctf_map:. You just have to use WE like so //replace stone ctf_map:stone. Currently, all nodes from default (0.4.17.1) (excluding liquids, and plantlike nodes), stairs (5.0.0-dev), and wool (5.0.0-dev) have a corresponding indestructible variant. All indestructible nodes have the same node name except for the prefix, which is ctf_map: for the indestructible variants.

I also agree with Thomas-S about the inclusion of a church in the map. It provides a lot of opportunities for controversial discussions and chaos.

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commented Feb 5, 2019

It seems like there is a church in the currently selected part of the map.

I don't know if this is really a good idea because it might hurt the feelings of religious players if they have to fight inside a church and additionally, it might also be a problem for players of other religions/atheists.

This might probably also result in players destroying/modifying the church to make fun of religion etc.

So, while I support the idea of making a part of Karsthafen a map for CTF, in the current state I have to disapprove this. -1

I will remove church and build there a fortres or something in next update

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commented Feb 5, 2019

General question: How can i select only buildings as region? There is various relief on the map. Or do you want me to make whole map (cube) indestructible?

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commented Feb 6, 2019

@JostP The natural landscape is generally made up of only two nodes: dirt and stone. So most of the buildings can safely be changed to indestructible, except for the ones using plain stone (default:stone). Just take a note of all the nodes used in building the structures, and then //replace <mod>:<item> ctf_map:<item> for each of them. Let me know if you're finding it difficult - I could do that for you.

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commented Feb 6, 2019

@JostP The natural landscape is generally made up of only two nodes: dirt and stone. So most of the buildings can safely be changed to indestructible, except for the ones using plain stone (default:stone). Just take a note of all the nodes used in building the structures, and then //replace <mod>:<item> ctf_map:<item> for each of them. Let me know if you're finding it difficult - I could do that for you.

Ok i understand now, thanks. I don't think this is difficult, i have already used //replace while i was removing not-supported nodes (obsidian glass, ...).

Do you like the current part of the original map? Images are posted on forum. I don't like making buildings indestructible twice.

I use minetest 0.4.17.1. Is this a problem?

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commented Feb 6, 2019

I cannot use indestructible stairs and wool :/ https://ibb.co/HxRcdQS.
There is a lot of stairs on the map.

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commented Feb 6, 2019

Finding chests is hard in city map. I think there should be more chests. Will adding this into .conf file work:

chests.1.n = 100
chests.2.n = 100
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commented Feb 7, 2019

Karsthafen is typical European Middle Ages town/village. There is always church in European town/village, so map without church looks insufficient/incomplete. What do you think about keeping church on map and making it indestructible and remove all entrances? This will make map much nicer. Also, church isn't in the middle of map, so players won't fight around it. If we want European style we should keep church on map.

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commented Feb 7, 2019

@ClobberXD: Would you like to make buildings indestructible when you will have time, please? I found it quite difficult, especially replacing wool and stairs. You also know the best how to do this, I think it won’t take you more than a hour of work. You can also review it at the same time.

BTW: can I update plain_battle? I want to make "RED BASE" and "BLUE BASE" lettering indestructible. Players destroy it every game :/. I still can't find indestructible wool.

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commented Feb 7, 2019

I use minetest 0.4.17.1. Is this a problem?

If the map has MTG 5.0.0-dev nodes, then yes. I highly doubt it though, as the original Karsthafen is pretty old.

I cannot use indestructible stairs and wool

Indestructible stairs and wool are indeed missing, at times, due to not adding the respective mods as dependencies of ctf_map. I've made a bug-fix (see MT-CTF/capturetheflag#353). But in the meanwhile, you can simply add stairs and wool to ctf_map/depends.txt.

Would you like to make buildings indestructible when you will have time, please?

Sure

BTW: can I update plain_battle? I want to make "RED BASE" and "BLUE BASE" lettering indestructible.

I could do that for you too, if you want. (I also remember you mentioning that indestructible stairs and wool were missing, which is the same issue as above)

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commented Feb 7, 2019

But in the meanwhile, you can simply add stairs and wool to ctf_map/depends.txt.

Thanks it works now. :)

I could do that for you too, if you want.

You don't need. There also isn't wool stairs, so I will need to change lettering. I will update it soon.

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commented Feb 8, 2019

What do you(plural) think about my comment about chests and church?

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commented Feb 8, 2019

Making the churches indestructible won't solve the issue as the real problem isn't about the church being destroyed or vandalized, but the fact that the church could potentially spark religious (a.k.a controversial) arguments. Given the age group of players playing on the server, we should minimize opportunities for problems (controversies or other) as much as possible.

About chests, if you think the spawned chests are too less, you can add custom chest-zones. See 09_swamplands.conf for an implementation example. Three fields can be used for each chest-zone:

  • chests.<num>.n: Number of chests to be placed in the zone. Optional; defaults to 23 if not specified.
  • chests.<num>.from, chests.<num>.to: Coords of diagonal corners of region, relative to the center of schem.
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commented Feb 8, 2019

Update of karsthafen.conf -added more chests.
karsthafen.zip

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commented Feb 8, 2019

Some people disagree with making buildings indestructible. ANAND do you really think that making buildings indestructible is necessary?

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commented Feb 9, 2019

I'd really like them to be that way, but we could also make them indestructible after merging, if required.

You also still need to add attribution to solars and Peters.

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commented Feb 9, 2019

I tested this map ingame:

In general, I really like this map.
I'd suggest to lower the height of the map a little bit to make skybridging more difficult.
I also think that this map is better with destructible nodes and as ANAND already stated, it can be changed later if necessary, too.
It seems to me that the red base is harder to defend, but I might be wrong with this.

EDIT: It also seems like the files of this PR are outdated, only the zipped files are updated.

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commented Feb 9, 2019

Yes, I can update the files if needed but I think updating the file once its gets the approval would be better

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commented Feb 9, 2019

I actually also liked the original part of the map, so maybe both could be added if the players like this kind of gameplay.

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commented Feb 9, 2019

Original part of the map has bridge in the middle which separates 2 sides of city. So will players need to defend the bridge if they don't want that other team come into their part of city.

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commented Feb 9, 2019

Maybe have the original part of the city as another map and make it destructible and make this one indestructible or vice versa, whichever option suits you.

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commented Feb 9, 2019

I think making multiple maps from Karsthafen is a great idea - it's a huge city, and each part of it is as unique as the other.

Yes, I can update the files if needed but I think updating the file once its gets the approval would be better

@MinetestSam The main point of making PRs is to make it easy to review. ;)

Forum topics aren't meant to track versioning and releases. A PR ensures that the latest version can be found in the same place at anytime, instead of having to dig through the forum topic.

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commented Feb 9, 2019

Will update as soon as I can get on my PC

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commented Feb 9, 2019

I'd suggest to make a new PR, so that both parts of the map are available as PR.

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commented Feb 9, 2019

If we add 2 different parts of karsthafen we need to give them two different names. What do you suggest?
I can also make PR for second part of Karsthafen (part without water) if you want.

MinetestSam added some commits Feb 9, 2019

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commented Feb 9, 2019

@MinetestSam please add this:karsthafen_bridge.zip in your PR.

This is original part of Karsthafen with water. Its name is now Karsthafen bridge. I will make PR for second part of Karsthafen.
Image of Karsthafen bridge:
karsthafen5

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commented Feb 10, 2019

Continued in #22

@ClobberXD ClobberXD closed this Feb 10, 2019

@MinetestSam MinetestSam deleted the MinetestSam:karsthafen branch Feb 12, 2019

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