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Incorporate RA-Classic ruleset as an optional mode for RA mod #16699

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netnazgul opened this issue Jun 15, 2019 · 8 comments

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@netnazgul
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commented Jun 15, 2019

https://github.com/OpenRA/raclassic recently worked on by @MustaphaTR is as close a mimic of original gameplay as it can be in OpenRA ruleset.

Integrating it into the core game as a playable mode will solve a lot of legacy issues with RA not being entirely true to the original and free up a lot of constrains wrt game balance (Hinds to Soviets, new units, new features, etc).

Partly it also relates to a #14325 but probably on a bigger scale.

Ping @IceReaper as someone who already works on a similar feature for KKND mod.

@netnazgul netnazgul changed the title Incorporate RA-Classic ruleset as an optional mode Incorporate RA-Classic ruleset as an optional mode for RA mod Jun 15, 2019

@matjaeck

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commented Jun 15, 2019

solve a lot of legacy issues with RA not being entirely true to the original and free up a lot of constrains wrt game balance (Hinds to Soviets, new units, new features, etc).

Do I read that correctly as "limit the development goal of retain the feel and nostalgia of the older games to a mod that nobody plays so the popular RA mod does not have to adhere to it"?

Otherwise incorporating it into the main RA mod wouldn't change anything. Doing so to free the RA mod from the aforementioned limits / goals would also mean that the project has failed at one of its goals. This might be the case, but should be communicated as such then.

@pchote

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commented Jun 15, 2019

I assume from this and some of the comments on other PRs that the tired OpenRA scope argument has done another round on the Discord...

I have tried to politely address this each time it comes up without offending anybody, because I do believe that other ideas and perspectives have merit. This time i'm going to be blunt, because the amount of time this is wasting is getting ridiculous.

The recent discussions I've seen suggesting to split "classic" vs "modern" RA have, from their tone and context, been difficult to read as anything except "give the whiners somewhere to go so the adults can get on with building a Proper Multiplayer Game". This is a bad faith argument that I find difficult to take seriously.

The "constraints" that come from trying to do our best good-faith modernization of the original game is the one thing that makes OpenRA a worthwhile project. I know from earlier discussions that some people see RA1 as nothing more than a free asset pack that can be rearranged to build whatever they want, but there is a term for that: asset theft. This is both morally and legally wrong, and will not be happening here under my watch. We can argue endlessly about where the line between modernization and ripoff actually sits, but to me the important point is the intent. The people arguing to remove the campaign, or tell players "this is OpenRA not RA, deal with it" in order to simplify or justify MP changes have crossed that line. The success of the project so far shows that the current approach that tries to balance classic vs modern is both workable and worthwhile.

People have three options if they want to change direction and build a game that isn't dragged down by the burden of considering the original: 1) Fork OpenRA or create your own mod 2) Kick me off the project 3) Start a project to create a new game universe and asset set that could become a new flagship OpenRA mod without being a clear ripoff.

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commented Jun 15, 2019

I'm not even sure if it's possible to recreate the exact "RA95" feeling with the OpenRA engine.
If one wants to play RA95 online, OpenRA could warn and redirect to https://cncnet.org/red-alert (or MustaphaTR's mod).
IMHO recreating RA95 in OpenRA is like recreating Starcraft in Starcraft 2, Age of Empires in Age of Empires 2, and so on. It's nostalgia but also a huge downgrade.
The OpenRA website states "Classic strategy games, rebuilt for the modern era." which can be misunderstood. The only classic things present in OpenRA are purely graphic stuff like terrain, buildings and units, everything else has been upgraded (even some of these graphics have been modified).
To answer this question you could write somewhere "OpenRA is not the original and doesn't try to look like the original. If you want the original you can try CnCNet."

@abcdefg30

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commented Jun 15, 2019

To answer this question you could write somewhere "OpenRA is not the original and doesn't try to look like the original. If you want the original you can try CnCNet."

Easter-egg hidden in the FAQ: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/wiki/FAQ#this-is-not-true-to-the-original

@FiveAces

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commented Jun 15, 2019

The recent discussions I've seen suggesting to split "classic" vs "modern" RA have, from their tone and context, been difficult to read as anything except "give the whiners somewhere to go so the adults can get on with building a Proper Multiplayer Game". This is a bad faith argument that I find difficult to take

seriously. />

Just to clear things up, I didn't intend to start this debate in bad faith. My opinion is that both fans of the traditional RA gameplay and the more progressive multiplayer community stand to gain something from this, hence why I brought forth this proposal. I don't think anyone wants people to just go and transform OpenRA into something completely different; the reviewing process has ensured in the past and is going to ensure in the future that this project doesn't stray too far from the source material.

@netnazgul

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commented Jun 15, 2019

I guess that I've miswritten the intentions in the OP. I didn't mean it to be "lets throw nostalgists the back-to-the-roots mod and free ourselfs to subvert OpenRA into something of our making".

@Orb370

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commented Jun 15, 2019

I'm pretty sure ppl actually besieging pchote everytime about hinds to soviets
is a terorist
sending emails and constant irc messages
change my mind

I'm pretty sure Pchote is eluding to these type of comments. I don't think they're representative of what everyone thinks, it's just Ganon is very loud.

Though, despite that I agree with Pchote. This kind of "grounding" keeps the project in check.

@MustaphaTR

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commented Jun 23, 2019

  1. Start a project to create a new game universe and asset set that could become a new flagship OpenRA mod without being a clear ripoff.

I actually would like to try to attempt such thing. In other hand i'm already full with mods so it is not really feasible for me to do it. If anyone with more time wants to attempt such thing tho i can provide ideas.
I'm not the best when it comes to artwork either anyway. Best i could make from scratch would have artwork quality along the lines of Dune 2 with hand drawn sprites. I don't know anything about modelling.

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