Meta-ticket: suggest/remove default applications in official templates

[mfc]

forked from: #1375 (comment)

This is to track any changes from the current default applications, ideally for all templates officially offered by Qubes:

• Debian 8
• Fedora 23
• Whonix (12) gateway
• Whonix (12) workstation

First thing to note is that Fedora 23 comes with Evolution mail client, which can probably be excluded since we include Thunderbird.

[mfc]

debian 8 should have evince installed by default, as fedora 23 already does. currently debian 8 does not come with a decent PDF viewer.

debian 8 should have gedit installed by default, as fedora 23 already does. emacs and vim can be removed from debian 8 (at minimum emacs should be removed).

[mfc]

debian 8 should have evince installed by default, as fedora 23 already does. currently debian 8 does not come with a decent PDF viewer.

debian 8 should have gedit installed by default, as fedora 23 already does. emacs and vim can be removed from debian 8 (at minimum emacs should be removed).

[tasket]

Last time I performed an install, the debian templates were essentially bare-bones. I used 'tasksel' and chose gnome3 that pulled in stuff like evince. There really should be a choice of debian templates -- minimal and desktop -- to match fedora templates. Would save people the confusion of installing a template and having almost no default apps.

Another problem with defaults on debian 8 is with the addition of certain apps: If you install Gimp it will become the default for things like pdf.... its as awful as having emacs/vi pop up when you double-click a txt file.

Also ImageMagick will add some rather useless associations for image files that get in the way.

[tasket]

Last time I performed an install, the debian templates were essentially bare-bones. I used 'tasksel' and chose gnome3 that pulled in stuff like evince. There really should be a choice of debian templates -- minimal and desktop -- to match fedora templates. Would save people the confusion of installing a template and having almost no default apps.

Another problem with defaults on debian 8 is with the addition of certain apps: If you install Gimp it will become the default for things like pdf.... its as awful as having emacs/vi pop up when you double-click a txt file.

Also ImageMagick will add some rather useless associations for image files that get in the way.

[adrelanos]

konsole -> gnome-terminal
dolphin -> nautilus
many more....

---

For which release would you like to see this implemented? Whonix 13 or Whonix 14? Or in other words, which Qubes release is the target of being moved to gnome? (Not useful to forcibly squeeze this into the "next" release, since that would delay the release of new stuff such as DispVM.)

(Whonix 13 mostly done | Whonix 13 mostly todo)

---

//cc @bnvk

[adrelanos]

konsole -> gnome-terminal
dolphin -> nautilus
many more....

---

For which release would you like to see this implemented? Whonix 13 or Whonix 14? Or in other words, which Qubes release is the target of being moved to gnome? (Not useful to forcibly squeeze this into the "next" release, since that would delay the release of new stuff such as DispVM.)

(Whonix 13 mostly done | Whonix 13 mostly todo)

---

//cc @bnvk

[marmarek]

For which release would you like to see this implemented?

Gnome is planned for Qubes 4.0, which is at least few months away. So if Whonix 13 is mostly done, probably should go into Whonix 14.

[marmarek]

For which release would you like to see this implemented?

Gnome is planned for Qubes 4.0, which is at least few months away. So if Whonix 13 is mostly done, probably should go into Whonix 14.

[mfc]

as a reminder, transitioning to default gnome apps within a template is not the same (and not related) to what desktop environment is the adminVM/dom0.

at the adminvm/dom0 level, XFCE comes with a GUI file manager thunar while KDE does not come with any file manager. Depending on dependencies maybe thunar can be added to KDE.

[mfc]

as a reminder, transitioning to default gnome apps within a template is not the same (and not related) to what desktop environment is the adminVM/dom0.

at the adminvm/dom0 level, XFCE comes with a GUI file manager thunar while KDE does not come with any file manager. Depending on dependencies maybe thunar can be added to KDE.

[cfcs]

So I think the primary reason to add something to the base templates is to enable troubleshooting in any VM when you are in a situation where something doesn't work. Most other things, people can install themselves. It is a bit hard to remember which packages I have manually installed, and which ones ship by default. Do we have an updated list of our selected packages for fedora/debian?

I suggest adding the following (for debugging scenarios):

• tmux (right now we don't have neither tmux nor screen)
• ltrace
• git
• unar or p7zip or some kind of story for opening .7z and .rar files
• man-dev manpages (if they aren't installed, I seem to remember I was missing some - maybe I should learn how to use info ?)
• socat

There are also some convenience features currently lacking in the debian-8 template:

• @mfc identified that there is no PDF reader.
• there is no default image viewer registered with xdg / xdg-open
• openvpn client so you don't have to do unencrypted connections from your local uplink at install time
• I disagree with @mfc's suggestion to remove emacs.

[cfcs]

So I think the primary reason to add something to the base templates is to enable troubleshooting in any VM when you are in a situation where something doesn't work. Most other things, people can install themselves. It is a bit hard to remember which packages I have manually installed, and which ones ship by default. Do we have an updated list of our selected packages for fedora/debian?

I suggest adding the following (for debugging scenarios):

• tmux (right now we don't have neither tmux nor screen)
• ltrace
• git
• unar or p7zip or some kind of story for opening .7z and .rar files
• man-dev manpages (if they aren't installed, I seem to remember I was missing some - maybe I should learn how to use info ?)
• socat

There are also some convenience features currently lacking in the debian-8 template:

• @mfc identified that there is no PDF reader.
• there is no default image viewer registered with xdg / xdg-open
• openvpn client so you don't have to do unencrypted connections from your local uplink at install time
• I disagree with @mfc's suggestion to remove emacs.

[adrelanos]

Please add the tags Debian, Fedora and Whonix. @andrewdavidwong

Related: Add support for GNOME in dom0/GUI domain (#1806)

[adrelanos]

Please add the tags Debian, Fedora and Whonix. @andrewdavidwong

Related: Add support for GNOME in dom0/GUI domain (#1806)

[andrewdavidwong]

Debian and Whonix labels added, but we currently don't have a Fedora label. @marmarek, should there be one?

[andrewdavidwong]

Debian and Whonix labels added, but we currently don't have a Fedora label. @marmarek, should there be one?

[marmarek]

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 04:58:27PM -0700, Andrew David Wong wrote:

Debian and Whonix labels added, but we currently don't have a Fedora label. @marmarek, should there be one?

Currently Fedora is "default template", at least from tickets point of
view. But IMO it would be good to have Fedora label.

Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

[marmarek]

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 04:58:27PM -0700, Andrew David Wong wrote:

Debian and Whonix labels added, but we currently don't have a Fedora label. @marmarek, should there be one?

Currently Fedora is "default template", at least from tickets point of
view. But IMO it would be good to have Fedora label.

Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

[unman]

I think I am at least partly responsible for the current limited state of the debian template: my suggestion was that we replace debian+minimal with "debian" and then ADD flavours. I assumed that debian+desktop would be the one shipped. That's why the debian template is far more limited than the fedora.

For what it's worth I don't think @cfcs additions are right for most users, and I assume that's what we are talking about here. (Maybe there's a place for a dev template?). The comments on convenience features are good.

The default templates should be as close as possible to a default install for the relevant distro. I don't see much point in standardizing applications across the distros - if you do that what's the point in having different offerings at all?

[unman]

I think I am at least partly responsible for the current limited state of the debian template: my suggestion was that we replace debian+minimal with "debian" and then ADD flavours. I assumed that debian+desktop would be the one shipped. That's why the debian template is far more limited than the fedora.

For what it's worth I don't think @cfcs additions are right for most users, and I assume that's what we are talking about here. (Maybe there's a place for a dev template?). The comments on convenience features are good.

The default templates should be as close as possible to a default install for the relevant distro. I don't see much point in standardizing applications across the distros - if you do that what's the point in having different offerings at all?

[tasket]

I'd be inclined to say that using debian-curated defaults is the logical choice, but have you looked at some of the defaults you get from 'tasksel' Gnome and Debian Desktop? If double-clicking textfiles opens them in emacs, and pdfs open in libreoffice draw, and images open in imagemagik 'display' -- ignoring the Gnome programs that are present -- then I'm wary of leaving those choices to the distro. That right there is a UX train wreck.

OTOH, is it worth the fuss to fix this? I'd much rather see the effort put into a working Ubuntu template instead.

[tasket]

I'd be inclined to say that using debian-curated defaults is the logical choice, but have you looked at some of the defaults you get from 'tasksel' Gnome and Debian Desktop? If double-clicking textfiles opens them in emacs, and pdfs open in libreoffice draw, and images open in imagemagik 'display' -- ignoring the Gnome programs that are present -- then I'm wary of leaving those choices to the distro. That right there is a UX train wreck.

OTOH, is it worth the fuss to fix this? I'd much rather see the effort put into a working Ubuntu template instead.

[adrelanos]

I'd much rather see the effort put into a working Ubuntu template instead.

Off-topic. Not possible. Legal reasons, see: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/templates/ubuntu/. Please redirect further off-topic discussion, Ubuntu to the qubes mailing list.

[adrelanos]

I'd much rather see the effort put into a working Ubuntu template instead.

Off-topic. Not possible. Legal reasons, see: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/templates/ubuntu/. Please redirect further off-topic discussion, Ubuntu to the qubes mailing list.

[adrelanos]

Do we still want to go for this ticket?

Did I rightly interpret this ticket to change Whonix VM

• konsole -> gnome-terminal
• dolphin -> nautilus

etc. @mfc?

We also have to check these new default applications for privacy issues. So it would be good to have a final list.

I can understand why @bnvk made the argument that the KDE desktop environment with its settings complexity provides worse usability than GNOME and therefore suggested to port Qubes to gnome. (#1806) However, has the argument been made, that GNOMEish applications generally have better usability than KDEish applications?

The argument was made, that all templates should use the same default applications to simplify Qubes. But must it be GNOME everything?

(With the exception for Whonix VMs, where some exceptions such as Icedove and Tor Browser are justified for stronger, for privacy reasons.)

• konsole is better than gnome-terminal (where one needs a keyboard combination for something as simple as opening another tab).
• kgpg has actual encryption/decryption/signature/verification functionality over gnome-keyring, so we'd like to at least keep some KDEish application for Whonix.
• I prefer dolphin over nautilus because it is simpler by using drag and drop to add a new favorite folder to the left bar.
• vlc > totem

@unman:

I don't see much point in standardizing applications across the distros - if you do that what's the point in having different offerings at all?

As for Debian vs Fedora, indeed. The improved usability choice would be if by default Fedora would be exposed nowhere to the user, i.e. have dom0 Debian based (#1919) and also use Debian for sys-net / sys-firewall. Then one would not have to learn two base distributions, debian based vs fedora based.

[adrelanos]

Do we still want to go for this ticket?

Did I rightly interpret this ticket to change Whonix VM

• konsole -> gnome-terminal
• dolphin -> nautilus

etc. @mfc?

We also have to check these new default applications for privacy issues. So it would be good to have a final list.

I can understand why @bnvk made the argument that the KDE desktop environment with its settings complexity provides worse usability than GNOME and therefore suggested to port Qubes to gnome. (#1806) However, has the argument been made, that GNOMEish applications generally have better usability than KDEish applications?

The argument was made, that all templates should use the same default applications to simplify Qubes. But must it be GNOME everything?

(With the exception for Whonix VMs, where some exceptions such as Icedove and Tor Browser are justified for stronger, for privacy reasons.)

• konsole is better than gnome-terminal (where one needs a keyboard combination for something as simple as opening another tab).
• kgpg has actual encryption/decryption/signature/verification functionality over gnome-keyring, so we'd like to at least keep some KDEish application for Whonix.
• I prefer dolphin over nautilus because it is simpler by using drag and drop to add a new favorite folder to the left bar.
• vlc > totem

@unman:

I don't see much point in standardizing applications across the distros - if you do that what's the point in having different offerings at all?

As for Debian vs Fedora, indeed. The improved usability choice would be if by default Fedora would be exposed nowhere to the user, i.e. have dom0 Debian based (#1919) and also use Debian for sys-net / sys-firewall. Then one would not have to learn two base distributions, debian based vs fedora based.

[unman]

I don't think that #1919 is still a target. In any case it seems to me that most users should be kept well away from dom0 and so what is running there is irrelevant. If anyone has the nous to tinker in dom0 then they should be able to handle the differences.

[unman]

I don't think that #1919 is still a target. In any case it seems to me that most users should be kept well away from dom0 and so what is running there is irrelevant. If anyone has the nous to tinker in dom0 then they should be able to handle the differences.

[andrewdavidwong]

at the adminvm/dom0 level, XFCE comes with a GUI file manager thunar while KDE does not come with any file manager. Depending on dependencies maybe thunar can be added to KDE.

It should be the opposite. Thunar should be removed from dom0, because the user should never run it there, and right now it is very, very easy to accidentally do so.

[andrewdavidwong]

at the adminvm/dom0 level, XFCE comes with a GUI file manager thunar while KDE does not come with any file manager. Depending on dependencies maybe thunar can be added to KDE.

It should be the opposite. Thunar should be removed from dom0, because the user should never run it there, and right now it is very, very easy to accidentally do so.

[andrewdavidwong]

Do we still want to go for this ticket?

A lot of things in this ticket are obsolete given the recent changes to dom0 (KDE -> Xfce4) and templates.

Also, a lot of it is just people pushing to make their personal preferences the default with little or no objective justification for doing so. That's a waste of everyone's time. The goal should be maximizing the user's freedom to choose.

Did I rightly interpret this ticket to change Whonix VM

When it comes to Whonix VMs, privacy is always the top priority. UX and "app uniformity" don't even come close. If the alternatives are equal with respect to privacy, I suppose people can argue about which should be used, but that seems like a waste of time that would be better spent elsehwere (see above).

[andrewdavidwong]

Do we still want to go for this ticket?

A lot of things in this ticket are obsolete given the recent changes to dom0 (KDE -> Xfce4) and templates.

Also, a lot of it is just people pushing to make their personal preferences the default with little or no objective justification for doing so. That's a waste of everyone's time. The goal should be maximizing the user's freedom to choose.

Did I rightly interpret this ticket to change Whonix VM

When it comes to Whonix VMs, privacy is always the top priority. UX and "app uniformity" don't even come close. If the alternatives are equal with respect to privacy, I suppose people can argue about which should be used, but that seems like a waste of time that would be better spent elsehwere (see above).