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Rewrote img-to-p fallback in the examples. #23
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Usually I can either see the image or its @alt. The examples assumed that if line 1 doesn't apply, then line 2; if line 2 doesn't apply, then line 3, etc. Thus the examples said somehow: if you don't display images using the img tab, then fall back to next line and display the paragraph. This is not the proper way things work, I think. Hoping I'm not too much intruding here, but I felt like helping on this issue. Please feel free to get in touch if I'm missing the point entirely.
Just a short note here: I do not think your change is the intended behavior. picture-element tries to improve the accessibility and therefore provide customizable alternative text (shown as a p-element in our examples). For the fallback you should provide an alt-text in the img tag but also can and should provide the alternate text for the non-fallback mode. Surely @marcoscaceres knows the spec better about this point but I think we are still have some discussion on that specific point… |
Thanks both of you. Sorry for being a bit too quick on the pull request comment and not formatting, it was late and I'm quite new to github and markdown. @anselmh my problem is this: the traditional browser behaviour that is expected is that if a tag isn't understood, the browser goes through it, ignores it and reads the following tags. This is how we've been able to add new tags and not break the web in older browsers: this is how it's always worked for html5 structural tags ( Here a browser which doesn't support the proposed construct will be parsing like this:
So this idea of using the first know tag in the list of successive fallbacks provided is valid indeed, but it does not work when two tags in a row are recognized by an older browser that does not understand the other tags. At least this is my understanding of the parsing algorithm. Hence my proposal to add a meaningful Does it make sense for you? |
@notabene Mostly true. Point is, we're writing a spec for a long-term time period. That means, the basic markup will be the picture-element without the img-fallback. Then we need alternative text and that again means, our p-element is the proper fallback content. For the meantime I'd suggest adding the alternative text to the img alt-attribute as well as within the p-element. For not having the alternative text displayed twice, just set the p-element to Hope this is understandable and clarifies you concerns. For the reasons above I am against merging this pull-request but at least one other of the core-members here should vote for / against it. (@marcoscaceres) |
Wishful thinking. This has never proved true in the short- and middle-term, sadly. So we have to accommodate older browsers for a long time.
Actually no, this will not be fine: when you don't display images for one reason or another, the So the |
Thanks for the feedback! I do think I am not the one to judge here, this should be addressed as an issue and discussed properly by the whole team. |
I apologize upfront if I am not supposed to comment on this topic, but I've been watching it for a few days and agree with a side. I believe the Second, the I hope that makes sense. I simply feel that the I understand both points of view, but I feel the |
OK so some quick thoughts, early on I suggested using the picture element as a container for the text alternative, reasons as cited by Ansel. the alt attribute is only used because of the content model of <img> it would have been and would still be better if the text alternative for an img was able to include rich text and other stuff such as lang identifiers. It may be that the putting the alt text in <picture> is a non starter for technical reasons. With <canvas> we have an implemented (in some browsers) model that is similar see http://blog.paciellogroup.com/2012/06/html5-canvas-accessibility-in-firefox-13/ . AT can access the alternative content inside the canvas element. I haven't followed the course of this discussion much so don't feel qualified to comment much more at this point, will need to read up on how it is specced. |
This example seems to be causing some confusion. This isn’t intended to illustrate that an In the majority of cases that will be an If beneficial to the user, however, richer fallback/a11y content can be used—in the case of a complex infographic , for example, the fallback/a11y content could be represented by tabular data. A handful of the W3C’s A11y task force was involved in these talks, and all parties agreed that having this option available stood to have tremendous benefit to end users. I think illustrating both forms of fallback content in the one markup example is causing some confusion, and the idea that we should be settling on one method or the other. We’ll look into amending these examples. Thanks for your feedback, guys! Don’t hesitate to let me know if there are any questions or concerns. We couldn’t do this without you! |
@Wilto "img tag" ELEMENT you fucker! :-) |
@stevefaulkner Hey, I’m just glad I managed to avoid using “ |
Off topic I know but I love the blank stares I get from people who say 'alt-tags' and I correct them to 'alt-attribute'. Like I'm from another planet and have no idea what I'm talking about. |
@Wilto thanks for the precisions. In these conditions my pull request is moot, sorry for the noise (although it was useful to raise the potentially confusing examples, as I jumped right into it) ;) |
@marcoscaceres Sure I can, it's a very good idea! I'll just get rid of the @darobin you genius. ;) |
@marcoscaceres done, can you check if it's less ambivalent? |
Rewrote img-to-p fallback in the examples.
Usually I can either see the image or its @alt. The examples assumed that if line 1 doesn't apply, then line 2; if line 2 doesn't apply, then line 3, etc., (which is the proper way for this kind of stacked markup, granted). Thus the examples said somehow: if you don't display images using the img tab, then fall back to next line and display the paragraph. This is not the proper way things work, I think. Hoping I'm not too much intruding here, but I felt like helping on this issue. Please feel free to get in touch if I'm missing the point entirely.