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No lang attribute #286
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No, it shouldn't. |
Yes, it should. Please see http://w3c.github.io/html/dom.html#lang-warning. |
Yes, it should. Beyond reasons like SEO, accessibility and, well, common sense, this also enables things like correct CSS hyphenation. |
An even better writeup on this by Adrian Roselli: http://adrianroselli.com/2015/01/on-use-of-lang-attribute.html |
Ohai. Alright, so here are a few things. I understand Casper is an open-source project, maintained on good will and everything, but when someone comes in with a suggestion to improve it, I’d argue replying constructively would be a Good Thing™. Heydon is an accessibility expert, and I sincerely hope he has better things to do than coming here for nitpicking on some irrelevant details. And while he could have certainly spent more time explaining why the I’ll say no more on the communication side of things here and move onto the actual topic of this ticket: the
There is no inferred default value for this attribute. Not providing it can cause quite critical accessibility issues for screen-reader users as a lot of tools rely on it to define the used dictionary and voice. Other tools —some about accessibility, some not— also use this attribute for different purposes. All that being said, could you please reconsider your position? :) |
I am French. My computer is set up by default in french, and so is my screen reader. When I go to a web page that doesn't have a If you've never heard a robot speak english with a french accent, here's your chance. Setting the |
@hteumeuleu, thank you for providing that video! 👌 Useful stuff. |
To be totally fair, as someone pointed out on Twitter, adding the |
Wow, this has turned into a fun issue, hasn't it? Let's get this straightened out. Hayden started tweeting last week about our mis-use of the role="presentation" attribute in Casper. Choosing that as your first point of communication is slightly lame and certainly doesn't endear you to any new community, but to his credit he did eventually open an issue, which I have already committed a fix for 68e48cf He then went on to open multiple other issues criticising trivial things which have no bearing on anything - which I also closed - #287 and this one. To be clear, and in direct response to @hugogiraudel
The effort and time taken in my response was precisely proportional to the effort and time taken in the issue description. Open source 101: You are entitled to exactly as much detail and civility as you yourself bring to any conversation. If you show up and say nothing more than "x should be y" - with nothing whatsoever to back it up - then don't be surprised when your issue gets closed. You are not automatically entitled to my time, nor anyone else's, just because you spent all of 5 seconds opening an issue. So let's talk about the issue itself then. It's a huge mistake to show up in a repository, ask no questions, and automatically assume that the people who have been maintaining a codebase for 4 years must be too dumb to have ever thought about this before or have any valid reason for their approach. Casper is a default theme for a publishing platform which is used by hundreds of thousands of people in, at the last count, over 176 countries in the world. More than 50% of our users (which is to say: the majority) do not speak English as a first language. So while not-setting a language attribute does cause minor accessibility issues for a minority of users, it is still preferable to actively setting a definitively wrong language attribute for literally the majority of users. The correct way to solve this issue is with a While we're exchanging notes on open source etiquette, let me add a few of my own:
The world doesn't owe you anything, no matter how many entitlement-laden tweets you bash out. If you don't like Casper, or Ghost, or me, that's fine - it's open source so you can modify the code for your use-case. Nobody is forcing you to be here, nor is there requirement for us to agree with each other. And if that's the case, then this keyboard war is really quite pointless — so if it's all the same to you, I'll get back to work, which is what I was doing before a demonstrably pointless mountain was made out of this already tenuous mole-hill. |
Thank you for the detailed explanation behind the earlier "no, it shouldn't". |
@JohnONolan Appreciate the detailed response, well articulated.
Not saying anyone was owed it as such, but adding this to the original reply probably would have saved a lot of argument on both sides. Or at least led the topic to a more fact-based discussion. |
Precisely why I feel like you should have taken more time to explain why you thought it should not be part of Casper. Again, that’s super fine to disagree with the feature request, but saying “No” is not helpful in anyway. You have the knowledge of the project, just use it for God’s sake. “Yes, but defaulting to English is not ideal because half our user based is not English.” Here, there is a polite and informative way to reply to this issue. Was it really that hard to come up with that in the first place? That would have certainly saved you this whole thread, that’s for sure. Anyway, thanks for clarifying why the issue is not as straight-forward as anyone initially thought anyway. Cheers. Edit: linking #289 here so the conversation and reasons behind the declined PR are visible. |
I took the time to write an issue, albeit without providing an explanation. The reason I didn't is because I did not assume you were 'dumb'. You can't have it both ways. You didn't take the time to explain it wasn't applicable, so I asked users to provide context, because I thought you might need it after all. They took the time to provide it. I'm not sure how this can be characterized as "lynch-mobbing". I'm sorry if the original mention on Twitter (about In any case, I appreciate the longer explanation you provided. I'm glad Ghost is taking the language issue into consideration. As a side note on the continued discussion of etiquette, terms like "dumb" and "lame" are ableist. You might be in danger of putting off people who have cognitive or physical disabilities from engaging with Ghost. |
Quick note to point out that issue TryGhost/Ghost#3801 has been open since August 2014 with no activity since October 2016, and the last effort to change the To John's point, it is available to be worked on, but nobody is doing it. Just wanted to close the loop on that is all. |
@aardrian To be clear: TryGhost/Ghost#160 is not an issue from 2015, nor is it anything at all to do with
This part is 100% true, which is because people such as the participants of this thread like to shout really loud on Twitter, but are rather averse to writing any actual code. So to properly close the loop, let me just point out that when I linked to the issue where this can be fixed properly, your response was to make fun of it rather than to do anything to solve it. Which is fitting, because that behaviour is the exact reason that this issue has been open for 3 years. If everyone who saw a long-running issue wrote 140 chars of code instead of 140 chars of snark, then we would already have a fully functioning, dynamic I left this open for a while because I thought it was fair to give everyone a chance to respond, but I 100% agree with @jdalton -- the time has come. |
Site language support added in https://github.com/TryGhost/Ghost/releases/tag/1.20.0 |
The
<html>
element in default.hbs should have a default language set on it. E.g.The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: