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Project organization language reworked #71

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@comradekingu comradekingu commented Sep 17, 2019

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@decentral1se decentral1se left a comment

Yep, that looks good to me on a quick pass now 🔥

- Support & Doc: Aleks, ljf, frju365, ppr
- Distribution: Aleks
- Communication: Aleks, frju365, Bram
- Translation: Quent-i, kingu
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@decentral1se decentral1se Sep 17, 2019

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👋

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@alexAubin alexAubin left a comment

Proposal to reword a few things

(Unfortunately many other pieces of this doc should be updated but that's unrelated to this PR :/ )

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## Definition of YunoHost

### Purpose

The goal of YunoHost is to make the installation and administration of a server accessible to the largest number of people, without prejudice to the quality and reliability of the software.
Installing and administrating a server should be accessible to the largest number of people, without prejudice to the quality and reliability of the software.
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@alexAubin alexAubin Sep 28, 2019

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Hmokay but the initial sentence was clearly stating "The goal of Yunohost is ..." whereas the new sentence sounds more like a wish..?

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@comradekingu comradekingu Sep 28, 2019

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That part is redundant. In that vein, and as long as the aim is not obviously met, the rest can serve as a reminder of what it should be. I don't understand "without prejudice to the quality and reliability of the software." btw. To me it means the installation and admin part of anything on a server should be accessible, even if the software is bad and unreliable. Meaning YunoHost somehow facilitates bad external software, reading into that on a half-empty glass.


YunoHost is a software under free licence, fully community-based and based on applications which are themselves community-based and often free (roundcube, baikal, etc.)
YunoHost is a software under copyleft libre licence, fully community-based and based on applications which are themselves community-based, and often gratis (Roundcube, Baïkal, etc.)
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Suggested change
YunoHost is a software under copyleft libre licence, fully community-based and based on applications which are themselves community-based, and often gratis (Roundcube, Baïkal, etc.)
YunoHost is a software under copyleft libre licence, fully community-based and integrates with a catalog of applications that are themselves libre (Roundcube, Baïkal, etc.)

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@comradekingu comradekingu Sep 28, 2019

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I shortened this

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<img src="https://raw.githubusercontent.com/YunoHost/yunohost-project-organization/master/organization_schema.png" height="600px" />

#### Definition and structure of groups

Groups are structured as a result of the fact that YunoHost counts many sub-projects (a total of 13), but without always knowing who is in charge or who is competent. It has therefore been decided to simplify the organisation into sub-projects according to theme-based groups:
Groups are structured as a result of the fact that YunoHost counts many sub-projects (a total of 13), though not always in the knowledge of who is in charge or competent. It has therefore been decided to simplify the organisation into sub-projects according to theme-based groups:
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Suggested change
Groups are structured as a result of the fact that YunoHost counts many sub-projects (a total of 13), though not always in the knowledge of who is in charge or competent. It has therefore been decided to simplify the organisation into sub-projects according to theme-based groups:
The purpose of the different working groups is to create teams working on the relatively independents sub-topics of the Yunohost project, and in which contributors can freely organize themselves. The working groups are as follow:

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Shortened

comradekingu and others added 6 commits Sep 28, 2019
Co-Authored-By: Alexandre Aubin <alex.aubin@mailoo.org>
Co-Authored-By: Alexandre Aubin <alex.aubin@mailoo.org>
Co-Authored-By: Alexandre Aubin <alex.aubin@mailoo.org>
Co-Authored-By: Alexandre Aubin <alex.aubin@mailoo.org>
Co-Authored-By: Alexandre Aubin <alex.aubin@mailoo.org>
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@frju365 frju365 commented Sep 28, 2019

Thanks for all this work. If you want to enter in a group, I think you have to ask first the person who is actually in the group, I mean @Quenty31. Person who enter in a group has to be motivated and the goal to keep contributing to Yunohost. Well, it's not "more work" but perhaps more responsibilities (managing contribution, helping perhaps other translators...).

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@Quenty31 Quenty31 commented Sep 29, 2019

Thanks for all this work. If you want to enter in a group, I think you have to ask first the person who is actually in the group, I mean @Quenty31. Person who enter in a group has to be motivated and the goal to keep contributing to Yunohost. Well, it's not "more work" but perhaps more responsibilities (managing contribution, helping perhaps other translators...).

Hello! I didn’t get why I'm mentioned here :S What group are we talking about?

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@comradekingu comradekingu commented Sep 29, 2019

@Quenty31 Consider yourself asked, you are the only prior person in "Translation".
We could add GitHub handle links to the groups, in case we found droids we are not looking for.

Seems to me doing the work and adding myself worked just fine. Researching other stuff I have done in the past is not as good as reviewing stuff I do for the betterment of YunoHost. I fully intend to get things into shape btw. If anyone wants to offload some responsibility and allow me better tools to do so, make https://translate.yunohost.org/user/kingu/ an admin on https://translate.yunohost.org/

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@frju365 frju365 commented Sep 29, 2019

@Quenty31 : I mean translation group.

@comradekingu : Well, responsibilities of translation group are :

  • to contribute (but I think this is not a problem)
  • Help other translators
  • Help Yunohost community to set up good tools to make translation easier for new translators (can be administration of weblate... or other things).
  • Be involve in discussion about translation on the forum.

ofc, you didn't have to do all things, and contributing is already a very good thing.

It was just to ping @Quenty31, just to know if he is okay with you joining Translation group.

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@comradekingu comradekingu commented Sep 29, 2019

@frju365 I am doing it as I see fit, and I have a plan.
Signed up for the forum https://forum.yunohost.org/u/kingu/ now, and I am on IRC, which is more suited for this discussion.
I think I am the only nb_NO translator for the time being, but I do answer comments made on the YunoHost Weblate instance. I am neither an admin there, nor a YunoHost GitHub anything.

frju365
frju365 approved these changes Oct 2, 2019
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If @Quenty31 agrees with accepting you in Translation group, we can merge, I think.

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@Quenty31 Quenty31 commented Oct 5, 2019

Yes I agree but I'm less ok with the idea of changing more than 350 strings with very little change =/
I see my % and it makes me sad because a few weeks before it was 100%.

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@comradekingu comradekingu commented Oct 5, 2019

@Quenty31 If you subscribe to fewer changed strings to have greater change in them, you value your overall percentage more than the accumulated effect of many small changes on the result. As such, you favour your own progress, but to what end?

Fuzzy strings will still be included, even if the percentage of completion appears lower. Is OTOH your added effort only worth it if you fix only the most pressing problems? This is both, at all times. Furthermore, it aims to be complete. Fixing the worst strings is a drawn out process, which if not done all at once, is inconsistent, and therefore drawn out further. What appears to be competing interests are actually mutually beneficial. Your concern for less than meaningful change fails to consider the content, and effort to better it. Do get specific about the changes, but do so with the aim to better them and increase their reach.

We must be diligent in finding even the smallest inconsistencies, in creating a total experience for the user, and a better environment for ourselves. All users, and those that are translators. This means also users to come, and that means future translators. The challenges faced and tackled by us, particularly in fixing the upstream string-base, are rewarded to the tune of users many-fold. If you don't have it in you, there are plenty other translators that do. Maybe someone cares extra much for this project, in your language, while you do other things. It is further a humble proposal to consider those languages whose resources are less plentiful, and resources not even started.

If your language is an interlingual one, it should be updated swiftly to help avoid generational loss for those that depend on it rather than the source language. If it was already fixed, then now everyone benefits the same. It is easier to go from the completion of good source to the effective completion of a good translation. Insofar as we have gone from bad to bad, or worse, we should seek amends. This is why we should always aim to put in as much effort as possible, as early as possible. Those weeks ago we were looking at a weaker string-base, arbitrary completion and uphill struggle to get there. Preventing good change from entering the top of this system, is the proposal that discourages me.

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@alexAubin alexAubin commented Oct 5, 2019

I believe @Quenty31's point was more that translators are contributing to many projects, and they work hard to get this psychological reward of seeing the progress bar reaching 90~100% and it's discouraging to see it back to 30% - though half of it are minor changes that don't require to retranslate the string, but still it requires to review again all the strings to make sure of it ... But I don't think that was an attack of the legitimacy of the original changes, idk

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@decentral1se decentral1se commented Oct 6, 2019

Ah, I thought this might happen that other translators would suddenly see a drop in their coverage. Any bad feelings could probably be mitigated with a conversation between translators before this work started. Where do translators of YunoHost meet online? I would glady have notified them.

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@comradekingu comradekingu commented Oct 6, 2019

@alexAubin @decentral1se You get this satisfaction for every project, and then there are other projects to tackle, or old ones to revisit. What I get a kick out of is seeing things done right.
I like that there is something to do, new strings, fixed strings, failing checks or otherwise, because it means something can be done to improve quality. If we are honest none of it passes for mustard right now, including my initial efforts. It is actually beneficial to make changes, because it draws more people to work on it for every notification.

To me it is very encouraging to see activity, particularly from upstream, and especially when quality is poor, because it means somebody cares. If translators see that, they are more likely to suggest upstream changes, and do better work. Every successful translation effort has lots of activity. Projects that are otherwise successful sometimes fail in this department, and small projects sometimes do very well. So far YunoHost has done well, but there are many challenges to overcome.

Translators actually like to translate. No work is undone, but you can go through the fuzzy strings to ensure nothing was missed. This is very quick in the Weblate Zen editor.
There are a few different IRC-rooms, and forums, in addition to the YunoHost-forum. However the best place to put up a notice is on the YunoHost Weblate instance, but https://translate.yunohost.org/user/kingu/ is not an admin there, so I can't do it. Though anyone can make a comment on any of the strings for the people that have notifications turned on. Better communication is definitely needed. Currently only Spanish and French has coverage https://translate.yunohost.org/projects/yunohost/#languages What I do never fails to increase interest, quality and coverage, for what its worth, and there are not a whole lot of other people doing it.

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@comradekingu comradekingu commented Jan 14, 2020

@Quenty31 @alexAubin @decentral1se @frju365
Weblate uses fuzziness to avoid scrapping work (and it can be tuned to ones liking). The idea that every changed string is lost is not true. There was no problem accepting patches for any of the strings changed in other parts of the project.

Moreover, this file is not offered for translation on https://translate.yunohost.org/projects/yunohost/ (though it has support for markdown). It only exists in French as https://github.com/YunoHost/project-organization/blob/master/yunohost_project_organization_fr.md with 14 contributors.

I can ask a French translator to update it if needed, but I find it strange that nobody is up to the task, in what is French project (with the possible inclusion of me, or not).

@comradekingu comradekingu changed the title Language reworked Project organization language reworked Jan 19, 2020
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