Exalts of the wrong type can learn extension Charms. #172

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Caveat opened this Issue Apr 17, 2012 · 4 comments

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Caveat commented Apr 17, 2012

The Problem:
Non-Abyssals can purchase Abyssal Charms that are based on Martial Arts if they have a Charm in Dark Messiah Style as a prerequisite.
Non-Infernals can purchase Infernal Charms that are based on Martial Arts if they have a Charm in Infernal Monster Style as a prerequisite.
Non-Sidereals can purchase three Sidereal Charms that are based on Martial Arts if they have a Charm in Throne Shadow Style as a prerequisite.
Non-Dragon-Blooded can purchase Terrestrial Charms that are based on Martial Arts if they have a Charm in Terrestrial Hero Style as a prerequisite.

Specific explanations of current vs. expected behaviors are broken down by Style, below.

Current Dark Messiah Style Behavior:
I make a non-Abyssal. I give them Essence 5. I give them Martial Arts 5. I go to the "magic" tab & click on "Martial Arts" & click on the "Dark Messiah Style" cascade. These Charms are incorrectly listed as a part of the Dark Messiah Style cascade:

Iron Maiden's Embrace
Ultimate Inevitability of the Grave
repurchase of Ultimate Inevitability of the Grave

Expected Dark Messiah Style Behavior:
I expect these Charms to be in the Martial Arts cascade, with the Excellency Charms. Instead of being where they are right now I expect to have to click the "magic" tab, then choose "Abyssal" from the first drop-down, then choose "Martial Arts" from the list of Abilities, because they are not a part of the Martial Arts Style called Dark Messiah Style. They are listed in a different part of the same book, with other Abyssal Ability-based Charms.

Current Infernal Monster Style Behavior:
I make a non-Infernal. I give them Essence 5. I give them Martial Arts 5. I go to the "magic" tab & click on "Martial Arts" & click on the "Infernal Monster Style" cascade. These Charms are incorrectly listed as a part of the Dark Messiah Style cascade:

Impatient Slaughter Speed
Moon-Beast Monster
Unthinkable Shining Horror
Dragon-Spawned Demon-Monster
Fallen Star Fury
Hero-Sundering Hands
Crack the Sky
Oath-Shattering Strike
Fearless Frenzy Attitude
Smoldering Rage Beast
All-Consuming Rampage Release
Fury is Freedom
Bounding Beast Advance
any Charm with Ink Monkeys Blog as the source
any Charm with any of the above as a prerequisite

Expected Infernal Monster Style Behavior:
I expect these Charms to be in the Martial Arts cascade, with the Excellency Charms. Instead of being where they are right now I expect to have to click the "magic" tab, then choose "Infernal" from the first drop-down, then choose "Martial Arts" from the list of Abilities, because they are not a part of the Martial Arts Style called Infernal Monster Style.

Current Throne Shadow Style Behavior:
I make a non-Sidereal. I give them Essence 5. I give them Martial Arts 5. I go to the "magic" tab & click on "Martial Arts" & click on the "Throne Shadow Style" cascade. These Charms are incorrectly listed as a part of the Throne Shadow Style cascade:

Unobstructed Blow
Horrific Wreath
Crimson Palm Counterstrike

Expected Throne Shadow Style Behavior:
I expect these Charms to be in the Martial Arts cascade, with the Excellency Charms. Instead of being where they are right now I expect to have to click the "magic" tab, then choose "Sidereal" from the first drop-down, then choose "Martial Arts" from the list of Abilities, because they are not a part of the Martial Arts Style called Throne Shadow Style.

Current Terrestrial Hero Style Behavior:
I make a non-Dragon-Blooded. I give them Essence 5. I give them Martial Arts 5. I go to the "magic" tab & click on "Martial Arts" & click on the "Terrestrial Hero Style" cascade. These Charms are incorrectly listed as a part of the Terrestrial Hero Style cascade:

Waves Break the Shore

Expected Terrestrial Hero Style Behavior:
I expect these Charms to be in the Martial Arts cascade, with the Excellency Charms. Instead of being where the Charm is right now I expect to have to click the "magic" tab, then choose "Terrestrial" from the first drop-down, then choose "Martial Arts" from the list of Abilities, because they are not a part of the Martial Arts Style called Terrestrial Hero Style.

Summary:
In summary, here is a general explanation of how the rules work & why things should be different. Each Exalt type has Charms for each Ability (or Attribute, etc.) that are based on their Exalt type. (For example: Most of the Charms in the core book are Solar Charms that are based on an Ability.) Every Ability has a cascade of these Charms, including Martial Arts (see the explanation in the core book, page 190). Some of these Charms have prerequisites that are in another cascade (for example: Thunderclap Rush Attack has a prerequisite that is in Solar Hero Style). In the core rules there are two types of Charms for Martial Arts; There are Charms that are in Styles & Charms that are not in Styles because they are specific to an Exalt type, just like with most Abilities. (Charms for Martial Arts that are not in a Style are sometimes called "extension" Charms.) Because 1st edition split the Marital Arts Ability up into two different Abilities the game's designers decided to give each Exalt type a "Hero Style" that they can learn intuitively, but that can be learned by anyone just like a regular Style. The "extension" Charms that are innate to an Exalt type always build off of what would have been 1st edition's "Hero Style" for them.

Owner
UrsKR commented Apr 17, 2012

@Caveat, thank you for the thorough list.
Please state current behaviour vs. expected behavior in a concise way and maybe give a single example for each. I have trouble to discern the problems you discovered from your writing, I couldn't even say how many separate problems there are.

Caveat commented Apr 17, 2012

I've re-edited the initial post a few times to try to make this easier to read. Later I came back & edited this again, adding a section at the top listing the general problem & compiling a summary of why the rules are how they are at the bottom.

Owner
UrsKR commented Apr 17, 2012

Thank you.

Excess Charms in the Styles

I cannot reproduce everything you list as current behaviour. I tested with a Dynastic Scion for Dark Messiah Style and with a Loyal Abyssal for everything else. What version of Anathema are you using, and what character types did you test with to see so wildly different behavior?

Solar Hero Style
I see no excess Charms here, the style looks exactly as I expect it to look.

Dark Messiah Style
I can reproduce your observed behaviour exactly and agree with your assessment.

Infernal Monster Style
Far too many charms are currently present for non-Infernals, probably all you listed above.

Throne Shadow Style
Unobstructed Blow, Horrific Wreath and Crimson Palm Counterstrike are currently present for non-Sidereals, but should not.

Terrestrial Hero Style
I can reproduce your observed behaviour exactly and agree with your assessment.

Regarding the expected behavior

If I understand correctly, you say that only characters of the given "Hero" style's type should be able to learn extension Charms. I agree with that.
I do not agree with your suggestion on where to put them, and would rather extend the filters that are already present so the excess Charms that are currently visible become hidden from other Character types.

That Note in Scroll of the Monk

I would just ignore it and treat all of the Charms listed there as regular extensions.

Caveat commented Apr 17, 2012

Regarding Scroll of the Monk: me, too.

Regarding expected behavior: either way. This was the way the regular Infernal Charms were implemented so I expected things to be the same way. So long as we don't have a Dragon-Blooded with Thunderclap Rush Attack things will be working correctly, right?

Regarding excess Charms: I may have messed up with Solar Hero Style. I had several tabs open, & I used a Solar to check most of the Styles. I may have been looking at a Solar for that Style & not realized. I see the following now:

Solar Hero Style filters correctly, as you observed.
Dark Messiah Style does not filter correctly.
Infernal Monster Style does not filter correctly.
Throne Shadow Style does not filter correctly for the three errata'ed Charms.
Terrestrial Hero Style does not filter correctly.

I have updated the original post accordingly.

An interesting story about Sidereal Brawl Charms that doesn't really have anything to do with anything:
Originally, in 1st edition, unarmed combat was covered by two Abilities: Martial Arts & Brawl. While there were many Martial Arts Styles there was only one Brawl cascade, which worked like any other Ability cascade. While Martial Arts could be diversified by taking different Styles the Brawl cascade was a single huge tree that included a few Charms with extremely high Essence requirements. The developers felt this difference - growing linerally up in Brawl & horizontally with different Styles in Martial Arts was a way of balancing the two.
Three of Throne Shadow Style's Charms were originally (in 1st edition) a part of the Sidereal Brawl cascade. When that Ability was merged with the Martial Arts Ability for second edition the original developers decided that they wanted the so-called Hero Styles to have extension Charms to accommodate high Essence characters, just like Brawl used to. The author of the Charm section of Manual of Exalted Power: Sidereals decided to also retain the rule from 1st edition that Sidereals can't create new Charms & so they decided not to have a Sidereal Hero Style. Instead they completely ignored the standard used in the other books & didn't write a Hero Style for the Sidereals (confirmed through a friend who knows one of the former editors for White Wolf). Instead they merged some of the Brawl Charms into a single huge Violet Bier of Sorrows Style. Later another author tried to correct this problem by creating Throne Shadow Style which (by my understanding) was edited out of Lords of Creation because there was "no reason" for Sidereals to have a Hero Style since they couldn't create high-Essence extension Charms. Instead, they were intended to have the Sidereal Martial Arts Styles to accommodate the needs of high-Essence extensions.
When the Ink Monkeys Blog guys decided to start working on the Hero Styles they were not working with the people who'd made these decisions, so they moved these three Charms over to the Throne Shadow Style.
These are the same three Charms that are being incorrectly displayed now.

@UrsKR UrsKR closed this in f2cd619 Apr 19, 2012
@UrsKR UrsKR was assigned Apr 19, 2012
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