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Open collaboration vs. open source post #98

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benbalter commented Jan 19, 2014

As promised. Still need to convert what's in my head to remotely articulate markdown, but this is a start.

@kfogel, @Haacked, @afeld if you have a free minute or two to take a look, I'd ❤️ your thoughts.

Fixes #84.

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Haacked commented Jan 20, 2014

I really like the concept of "Open Collaboration". It's open source + collaboration. It's a step up from open source. It's Open Source ++. :)

Perhaps it's because of my different background, I feel like this underplays the importance of the license. Even if some project (like a govt project) doesn't accept contributions, but releases their source under an open source license, that's still a hugely important thing. It allows other projects to take the source and allows them to accept contributions and employ open collaboration.

Contrast this with cases where a team distributes their source code, and even accepts contributions, but the source's license is not open source. Maybe they simply don't state what it is.

That puts everyone who takes the code and tries to do something with it in a precarious position.

The license is all about the freedom the users of the source can enjoy and I don't think this should be understated.

With the advent of source based platforms such as Ruby where you require the source to run it, it's easy to conflate source available with open source. I think this is dangerous. This leads to things like Microsoft's Shared Source initiative. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/

Also, we've seen cases where petty squabbles between stakeholders cause one group to want the other to no longer use their code. People start putting limitations on the code. This is all possible when the license of the code is indeterminate. Or even worse, you run into copyright trolls. I've had personal experience with this.

The other aspect is that people don't actually know how to combine software and fit under the license. With OSI licenses, you have a lot of prior art. I ran into a website the other day that allows you to generate a custom "open source" license. Imagine that mentality filling the world with software where nobody knows how to combine them.

I guess my point is, I hate to see anything that cheapens the idea that source with a proper license is somehow not in the spirit of open source. I disagree with that. But I do love the idea of saying the approach we use to make open source software is "open collaboration".

Open Source -> The thing we make.
Open Collaboration -> A great way to make it.

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kfogel commented Jan 22, 2014

Ben Balter notifications@github.com writes:

As promised. Still need to convert what's in my head to remotely
articulate markdown, but this is a start.

@kfogel, @Haacked, @afeld if you have a free minute or two to take a
look, I'd
❤️
your thoughts.

Hey, Ben. Some complicated thoughts here...

What's missing from this article is the concept of "fork", in the older
sense of the word -- that is, someone copying a code base and using it &
modifying it without regard to potential collaboration with its original
authors. (Sometimes the phrase "hostile fork" is used, although that's
needlessly zero-sum for what I'm talking about here.)

I think you're spot-on in your point about open collaboration being a
certain style of working, and that merely releasing code under an open
source license doesn't guarantee that this style of working will
magically spring into being -- either with the original authors or
anyone else. An open source release is a necessary but not sufficient
condition for open collaboration.

But the "necessary" part of that is key here. Fundamentally,
open-source-style collaboration can't really happen when the source is
only available inside a certain organization. Open source dynamics
require at least the potential for totally permissionless modification
(i.e., you don't have to worry what someone might think of a fork).

[By the way, you'll recognize parts of this argument from an earlier
private email correspondence of ours.]

When software is only circulatable within a given management hierarchy
or organizational structure, then that potential for permissionless
collaboration vanishes -- and with it, the potential for true open
source dynamics. The permission structure that governs one's behavior
with respect to the code is not just a matter of the code's license;
it's about whom you report to, what others in the hierarchy might think
about your changes, etc.

In the long run, the dynamics of open source collaboration require an
external supply of freedom. There must always be people who could, in
principle, fork or do whatever they want without worrying about
consequences within the original authors' organization.

When that external freedom is removed, the dynamics change. Now, you
might still have a fairly enlighted company that believes in giving its
employees broad access to company code -- a company such as GitHub or
Google, for example -- and that's great. But it's not going to be
enough to keep true open source collaboration going for the long haul.
For that, you need the external supply of freedom.

In a more minor point, I thought this was (only mildly :-) ) unfair:

For me, that's always been what open source is. It's a collaborative
model, not a rights regime or political philosophy, and when you
describe open source to non-developers, you don't lead off by talking
about copyright assignment. Apparently, however, such a viewpoint was
the minority [links to my tweet at
https://twitter.com/kfogel/status/386259984817717248].

Open source isn't about licenses and copyrights for me either. And the
moment Congress decides to get sane and have the default copyright in
the U.S. be freedom-respecting, and require registration for those who
want monopoly powers, then releasing open source code will not require
putting an open source license on it. We can acknowledge current legal
reality without it defining our collaboration practices. FWIW I never
lead off by talking about licenses and copyright assignments, when I'm
explaining open source to people.

In any case, "lead off by talking about copyright assignment" isn't an
accurate characterization of my tweet :-). However, you're right that I
do think open source is a rights regime and a political philosophy --
well, I wouldn't use the phrase "rights regime", which in legal jargon
has mainly restrictive connotations, whereas open source is about an
absence of restrictions.

Anyway, I believe one can't get that collaborative model unless all the
rights are present -- including the right to permissionless forking by
anyone. That's the question at the heart of this (very interesting!)
conversation, and while I may not persuade you that it's the case, I
think your post might be stronger by acknowledging this other point of
view. Either way, I look forward to your publishing it!

Best,
-K

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Haacked commented Jan 22, 2014

Hi @kfogel. Long time fan of your work here. Great response. This in particular kind of blew my mind.

Open source isn't about licenses and copyrights for me either. And the
moment Congress decides to get sane and have the default copyright in
the U.S. be freedom-respecting, and require registration for those who
want monopoly powers, then releasing open source code will not require
putting an open source license on it.

mind-blown

I feel like the cargo cult member who just wakes up and realizes just because it's been this way forever, it's not the only possible reality. I love this point that the licensing we do today is a response to the default copyright law in the U.S.

However, this does lead me to a question. The world is very connected now. Every open source project I create or use has contributors and users around the globe. So even if the U.S. changed its laws to make default copyright respect freedom, wouldn't a license still be a necessary (or at least prudent) until we had some world-wide copyright convention that is freedom respecting?

My cynical side tells me it's pointless to debate this because our lawmakers are deeply corrupted (in the Lessig sense) by money from industries that seek to continually extend copyright terms rather than pull them back. But it doesn't hurt to dream, right?

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kfogel commented Jan 22, 2014

Phil Haack notifications@github.com writes:

However, this does lead me to a question. The world is very connected
now. Every open source project I create or use has contributors and
users around the globe. So even if the U.S. changed its laws to make
default copyright respect freedom, wouldn't a license still be a
necessary (or at least prudent) until we had some world-wide copyright
convention that is freedom respecting?

By extension, yes, though of course this is all theoretical -- no
legislative body is contemplating such a change right now

My point was a general one about the default stance of law favoring
monopoly control rather than freedom, and I was just using the
U.S. Congress to make that general point with a concrete example.

My cynical side tells me it's pointless to debate this because our
lawmakers are deeply corrupted (in the Lessig sense) by money from
industries that seek to continually extend copyright terms rather than
pull them back. But it doesn't hurt to dream, right?

And many dreams can be implemented independently of legislatures...

http://questioncopyright.org/declared_value_system

:-)

Best,
-Karl


## Open source as permissionless modification

[Karl Fogel](http://www.red-bean.com/kfogel/), who *literally* wrote [the book](http://producingoss.com/) on producing open source software, and whom I admire greatly, argued in a series of emails, that since its inception, open source had always been about the right to modify, not the right to contribute.

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afeld Jan 22, 2014

A bit of a run-on sentence... try removing the comma after "emails", at least.

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benbalter Jan 26, 2014

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How is it a run on? The "that" makes the second clause a dependent clause? Although I'll give you way too long and awkward comma placement. 😄


I've only known a world where open source has already won. When I think open source, I don't think "*is this thing licensed under a Open Source Initiative blessed license?*" Today there are increasingly fewer fights over the rights one receives with software, and more over seeing it released in the first place, or once released, over exposing process. Developers today could [care less what the license is](http://opensource.com/law/13/2/post-open-source-software-licensing). We just want to hack on cool things.

There are a lot of reasons for that deemphasis. For one, technology has made it easier to work together, than alone, and therefore, has shaped at least what I think it means to be open source. As Karl noted:

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afeld Jan 22, 2014

Trim this sentence a bit, i.e.

For one, technology has made it easier to work together than alone, which has then shaped what I think it means to be open source.


> Open source ≠ public. A project can be open source, even if not *everyone* has access to the code. You can open source within your organization, within your team, with your friends, so long as the philosophy is there.
At GitHub, we like to think of GitHub.com as an open source project. We use GitHub to build it, anyone in the company can see the source code, open an issue, or submit a pull request. In all senses of the word it's open source, except not everyone has access to the code.

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afeld Jan 22, 2014

I think of GitHub as acting like an open source project within the company, though I would never call it "open source". This is the reverse the "Open source behind the firewall" points you were making above: it has the collaboration, without the availability/transparency.

At GitHub, we like to think of GitHub.com as an open source project. We use GitHub to build it, anyone in the company can see the source code, open an issue, or submit a pull request. In all senses of the word it's open source, except not everyone has access to the code.

What percentage of the world needs to have access to something before we can call it open source? 90%? 51%? What if I print out the source code and make it available via snail mail to anyone who asks? What if I don't tell anyone that that's an option? What if I send the source to ten friends, and then leave a copy on a flash drive at the south pole? The list goes on. Rights are nothing without workflow.

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afeld Jan 22, 2014

I would probably call these cases "provisional open source". Just because more than one person can see the code doesn't make it open, either.

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benbalter Jan 26, 2014

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Right, what I'm getting at, is how many people need to have access, and what constitutes as sufficient access? Surely, posting on GitHub publicly suffices, and giving it to one person falls short, but where are the intermediate granulations of that spectrum?

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kfogel Jan 29, 2014

Ben Balter notifications@github.com writes:

Right, but I'm getting at, is how many people need to have access, and
what constitutes as sufficient access? Surely, posting on GitHub
publicly suffices, and giving it to one person falls short, but where
are the intermediate granulations of that spectrum?

Are we sure there are intermediate granulations?

If all sentient beings have the right to make copies and do what they
want with them, and they have some reasonable way to actually physically
obtain a copy (you know, "within epsilon of zero marginal cost", that
kind of thing), then it's open source. If they don't, it's not.

Because even if someone posts code in an inconvenient way in an
inconvenient place, as long as the license doesn't discriminate, then
someone else can always make the inconveniences go away by posting a
copy in a better place. This is what

http://conservatory.github.io/

is all about, in fact :-).


> There is no such thing as "government-only" or "academic-only" or "within-our-company-only" open source
I think that's true. At least, the idea of someone calling something "governemnt-only open source" scares me. But what do we call the millions of developers that adopt open source workflows for their closed-source software? For non-software collaboration? How do we divorce ourselves from a rights-centric viewpoint and the holy wars that go with it (I'm looking at you GPL)? What do you call something that's developed in the open with community involvement that may or may not be software?

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afeld Jan 22, 2014

Misspelled "government" in the first sentence.

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afeld commented Jan 22, 2014

Even if some project (like a govt project) doesn't accept contributions, but releases their source under an open source license, that's still a hugely important thing.

The ability to fork is great, but is far less common (and a last resort after) the ability to contribute to the canonical version. In practice, this happens almost exclusively when the original maintainer(s) abandon the project or something else interferes with the way the community is going, a la the Hudon/Jenkins trademark fiasco. This comes back to the "collaboration > source".


Pretty stoked to be part of this discussion. You should link to this PR from the article as a meta-example of your blog being "open collaboration" instead of just "published" 😺

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kfogel commented Jan 22, 2014

There's already a word for sharing source code liberally within a restricted set of people (such as a company): "inner source" or "innersourcing".

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kfogel commented Jan 22, 2014

By the way (partly a reply to @afeld):

The rarity of forks is not an indicator of their significance one way or the other. It's true that forking -- in the "social fork" sense -- is a rare event, but that's partly because the ever-present implicit threat of forks causes original maintainers to behave differently with respect to a project than they would if there were no such threat.

Compare "nuclear missiles can't be a very important factor, because they're hardly ever used" and I think my point will be clear :-).

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Haacked commented Jan 22, 2014

Also, forking is actually more common than people think. I've heard some people use the term "shallow forking". Where they need a custom patch to their fork, but they still track the canonical source. This happens all the time and a good OSS license enables this.

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kfogel commented Jan 22, 2014

I think we're using the same word to describe different things. The term "fork" is overloaded.

A "social fork" is an attempt to change the socially accepted master copy of a project. When a group of developers think a project is being maintained poorly, they'll fork it (in the social sense) and invite everyone to treat their fork as the new canonical version. This has happened to some big projects. For example, the thing we today call GCC started as a fork of GCC (called EGCS), done by a group unhappy with GCC's maintenance. Most people went with the EGCS fork, so eventually the GCC maintainers saw the new reality and declared EGCS to be the new GCC -- in effect, blessing the fork by giving it the original name. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Compiler_Collection#EGCS_Fork tells some of the story.)

The kind of fork you're talking about above is more of an "internal maintenance branch" or "customization branch" -- CVS used to call this a "vendor branch", and that terminology is still in use by many. It's not an attempt to change the social master copy, it's just an acknowledgement that certain modifications (ones that need to be maintained across multiple upstream releases) will never make it into the core distribution.

Then there's the most recent sense of "fork", the GitHub sense, which means essentially "development branch". I'm pretty sure this sense only arose because GitHub wanted a one-syllable word, that could be both a verb and a noun, to refer to the common maneuver of creating a development line-of-work in a publicly visible place :-). (Indeed, that maneuver long predates Git itself, let alone GitHub, but to be fair I think it got a lot easier and more commonplace with Git+GitHub.)

We can call all these things "forks", but that doesn't make them the same thing. Social forking is quite rare, but the implicit threat of it still has profound effects on maintainer behavior. Meanhwile, the potential for, or even the actuality of, internal maintenance branches and GitHub-style forks doesn't have the same effect on maintainers, for obvious reasons.

All OSS licenses permit all of the above kinds of fork, of course, because they all involve copying and modifying.

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benbalter commented Jan 26, 2014

@Haacked:

Even if some project (like a govt project) doesn't accept contributions, but releases their source under an open source license, that's still a hugely important thing.

Perhaps I didn't articulate it properly. The edge case that I'm trying to get at is that Government-produced code is not subject to domestic copyright protection, yet it is not usually licensed under an OSI-license, nor are contributions generally accepted. There is no reason I can't do anything I want with the code, including forking it and accepting contributions from others. Is it open source? Now what if it were only public domain on US sovereign territory? Still open source?

That puts everyone who takes the code and tries to do something with it in a precarious position.

I guess the underlying assumption of your counter argument is that at some point, someone will care about copyright enough to bring suit in court. From my experience, that doesn't generally happen, and when it does, it's not enough to chill all contribution. People get into open source because they want to share. We see people contributing to government open source projects licensed under the public domain... relinquishing all claims of ownership and thus right to enforce. We see more MIT than GPL. Sure, they're legally in a precarious position, but so does jay walking and driving four over the posted limit.

I guess my point is, I hate to see anything that cheapens the idea that source with a proper license is somehow not in the spirit of open source. I disagree with that. But I do love the idea of saying the approach we use to make open source software is "open collaboration".

Open Source -> The thing we make.
Open Collaboration -> A great way to make it.

❤️ this and couldn't agree more. I think I've been using the word open source wrong for a few years now. 😄

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benbalter commented Jan 26, 2014

@kfogel

Some complicated thoughts here...

Understatement of the year. Really appreciate the feedback and hope to do it justice.

In the long run, the dynamics of open source collaboration require an
external supply of freedom. There must always be people who could, in
principle, fork or do whatever they want without worrying about
consequences within the original authors' organization.

Completely agree (now), and will update the post to put this more squarely at the center of the description of open source. I guess what distinguishes that from "open collaboration" in my mind, is the logistics. Let's say I don't like Drupal, and I go ahead and fork it. I can surely run that forked code myself, and can invite others to do the same, but practically speaking, my efforts will largely be within a silo. Yes, that's my freedom, and I could spend the entire lifecycle of the software merging upstream commits, but with the exception of abandoned projects (which I'd argue is a failure on the part of the tools to provide an adoption mechanism), this is seen far less frequently than hashing out the difference in a collaborative way, by perhaps, extending the plugin API.

In any case, "lead off by talking about copyright assignment" isn't an
accurate characterization of my tweet

Totally fair. If I'm understanding correctly now, it's about freedom, licensing being the mechanism through which that must be stated due to current copyright law.

However, you're right that I
do think open source is a rights regime and a political philosophy --
well, I wouldn't use the phrase "rights regime", which in legal jargon
has mainly restrictive connotations, whereas open source is about an
absence of restrictions.

The tyranny of open source! 😄 (will fix that)

I believe one can't get that collaborative model unless all the
rights are present -- including the right to permissionless forking by
anyone

I think that's the crux of the discussion, and again, this may be shaded by my skewed perspective. Take the White House We the People petitions platform. It's GPLv2 due to it's Drupal dependency, but let's say it was public domain, or MIT for simplicity sake. I can contribute, using a model that smells like collaboration, and yes, technically, I could stand up petitions.benbalter.com, but there are parts of the value of the application, beyond the source code, namely the White House name, the promise that they respond, and the centralized hub, that doesn't transfer with my fork. I could fork the source code, but it would gut the project of its purpose. The code is a means to an ends. Is it just freedom for freedom sake at that point? Would it's license being GPL, public domain, or no license affect the nature of my contributions?

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benbalter commented Jan 26, 2014

@afeld

Thanks for the line-by-line. Should be reflected now.

The ability to fork is great, but is far less common (and a last resort after) the ability to contribute to the canonical version.

That's the question. Is the ability to fork necessary? Is the ability to contribute to the canonical version necessary? Where I'm landing after this is that forking is necessary for open source (solving for freedom), and contribution is necessary for open collaboration (solving for collaborative workflow).

Pretty stoked to be part of this discussion. You should link to this PR from the article as a meta-example of your blog being "open collaboration" instead of just "published"

That raises a great question. Can we call this blog post open source? Surely it's collaborative. But the post is licensed CC-BY, a non-OSI-approved license (so perhaps open source, but not open source software). I guess you could fork it, and go post it on your own site if you really wanted, but again, what's the value in that freedom?

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benbalter commented Jan 26, 2014

The rarity of forks is not an indicator of their significance one way or the other. It's true that forking -- in the "social fork" sense -- is a rare event, but that's partly because the ever-present implicit threat of forks causes original maintainers to behave differently with respect to a project than they would if there were no such threat.

Completely valid in a world where open source projects are scarce resource. It used to be that publishing, establishing a presence, and setting up the necessary infrastructure was the major barrier to entry. Today that's trivial. Getting (and maintaining) contributors is the challenge. The reason that I'm civil in this thread (beyond the obvious reasons) or any other pull request is not because I'm afraid you're going to take my code and run off and do your own thing. There's a network effect locking you in. It's because I, as an open source project maintainer need your contributions for the project to thrive, and am afraid you're going to go contribute to another, potentially non-"competing" open source project. I'd argue that at some point since when open source was created to now, the supply and demand side constraints flipped, or at least that they are about to.

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benbalter commented Jan 26, 2014

One thought as I'm revisiting the post with what I've learned on this thread:

If open source software, at its core, is about permissionless modification, why would the creator of a software project choose to open source his or her software? Is that simply the concession one makes in order to secure the opportunity for community contribution?

@ghost ghost assigned benbalter Jan 26, 2014


> @benbalter The internet has noticed that you tried to define "open source"
Not an email that you receive every day. As part of an effort to lower the barrier for getting started GitHub, we published [a glossary of common GitHub jargon](https://help.github.com/articles/github-glossary#open-source), which included the term "open source". We defined it as:

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afeld Jan 27, 2014

"getting started GitHub"?

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benbalter commented Jan 27, 2014

Thank for the feedback and insight. Going to go ahead and merge, but please don't think that that must signal an end to this extremely enlightening discussion.

benbalter added a commit that referenced this pull request Jan 27, 2014

Merge pull request #98 from benbalter/open-collaboration
Open collaboration vs. open source post

@benbalter benbalter merged commit 77c4c62 into master Jan 27, 2014

@benbalter benbalter deleted the open-collaboration branch Jan 27, 2014

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kfogel commented Jan 29, 2014

Ben Balter notifications@github.com writes:

That raises a great question. Can we call this blog post open source?
Surely it's collaborative. But the post is licensed CC-BY, a
non-OSI-approved license (so perhaps open source, but not open source
software). I guess you could fork it, and go post it on your own site
if you really wanted, but again, what's the value in that freedom?

Well, I think that's an easy one: yes, it's open source.

The fact that CC-BY is not OSI-approved is just because it's not really
a software license. CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, and CC0 all have the necessary
properties to be "open source" in the sense we're talking about here.
OSI approval is important for a lot of reasons, but it doesn't change
the fundamental dynamics.

If a license grants a certain set of permissions (ones that the state's
default copyright doesn't grant), then you get open source behavior --
whether we call it that or not, it's still present. One can dampen it a
little by using a license that some people don't recognize, but then the
reason for the dampening is just that people have to expend extra energy
to understand what rights the license has granted them. Once the
license becomes recognizeable (as those particular CC licenses have),
then even that problem goes away.

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kfogel commented Jan 29, 2014

Ben Balter notifications@github.com writes:

If open source software, at its core, is about permissionless
modification, why would the creator of a software project choose to
open source his or her software? Is that simply the concession one
makes in order to secure the opportunity for community contribution?

I'm not sure I understand that question. Why wouldn't a creator do
so? Why would allowing permissionless modification of copies be
automatically assumed to be a bad thing in the first place?

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kfogel commented Jan 29, 2014

Ben Balter writes:

Completely valid in a world where open source projects are scarce
resource. It used to be that publishing, establishing a presence,
and setting up the necessary infrastructure was the major barrier to
entry. Today that's trivial. Getting (and maintaining) contributors
is the challenge. The reason that I'm civil in this thread (beyond
the obvious reasons) or any other pull request is not because I'm
afraid you're going to take my code and run off and do your own
thing. There's a network effect locking you in. It's because I, as
an open source project maintainer need your contributions for the
project to thrive, and am afraid you're going to go contribute to
another, potentially non-"competing" open source project. I'd argue
that at some point since when open source was created to now, the
supply and demand side constraints flipped, or at least that they
are about to.

The overhead of forking a project is not from the infrastructure, it's from the social overhead.

I truly don't think this dynamic has changed very much, at least in the time I've been working in open source. Technology improvements have made it somewhat easier to do non-social forks, and that's a very good thing IMHO (GitHub has been part of that, obviously). But it's the potential for social forks that keeps maintainers on their toes, and I don't see any way in which that has changed.

If you were running a project where different constituents had very different needs, and some of the ones who had needs different from yours also had independent funding sources, you would feel that dynamic too, and very quickly. I think you just happen not to be running that sort of project right now (?).

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benbalter commented Feb 24, 2015

We're famous! This thread made its way into an InfoWord story.

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