From 2fdf908e1acd9276edab40262666bf6d1c2e721b Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: steve Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:25:18 -0400 Subject: [PATCH 1/6] Make fee explanation clearer To address @ManfredKarrer's proposal here: https://github.com/bisq-network/proposals/issues/proposals/#31 --- faq.html | 29 ++++++++++++++++++++--------- 1 file changed, 20 insertions(+), 9 deletions(-) diff --git a/faq.html b/faq.html index 6805305c..b6cabacf 100644 --- a/faq.html +++ b/faq.html @@ -295,15 +295,26 @@

Trading Details

How much does it cost to trade on Bisq?

-

The trading fees for the offer maker and for the taker are calculated differently.
- The trading fees for the offer maker is based on trade amount and distance to market price.
- Min. fee (MinFee) = 0.00005 BTC, default fee (DefFee) = 0.002 BTC/per Bitcoin, market price factor (MF) = square root of percent value (e.g. 1% -> 1, 9% -> 3, 0.01% -> 0.1).
- Makers trading fee = max(MinFee, DefFee * amount * MF). E.g. 0.002 BTC for 1 BTC trade at 1% market price distance equivalent to 0.2% of the trade amount.
- The trading fees for the offer taker depends only on the trade amount.
- Min. fee (MinFee) = 0.00005 BTC, default fee (DefFee) = 0.002 BTC/per Bitcoin.
- Takers trading fee = max(MinFee, DefFee * amount). E.g. 0.002 BTC for 1 BTC trade. That is 0.2% of the trade amount.
- The maker has to pay the miner fee for the trade fee transaction. The taker has to pay 3 times the miner fee (trade fee transaction, deposit transaction and payout transaction). That is because we use a fee estimation service and the maker cannot know which fee will be required at take-offer-time. The mining fee is taken from the recommendation from a fee estimation service and can vary between 20 Satoshi/byte up to 400 Satoshi/byte. The users can see the actual mining fee when creating or taking an offer. -

+ +

To trade on Bisq, users pay (1) trading fees to Bisq and (2) mining fees to miners.

+ +

Trading fees for offer makers and offer takers are calculated differently.

+ +Offer maker fees +

The trading fee for an offer maker is based on the trade amount and distance from the current market price:

+

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded> * <square root of percentage distance from current market price>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

+

Example 1: offer to sell 1 BTC at current market price results in 0.00005 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 * 0 = 0, so minimum fee applies).

+

Example 2: offer to sell 0.8 BTC at 4% premium to current market price results in (because 0.002 * 0.8 * sqrt(4) = 0.0032).

+ +Offer taker fees +

The trading fee for an offer taker is based only on the trade amount:

+

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

+

Example 1: take offer to buy 1 BTC at current market price results in 0.00005 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 * 0 = 0, so minimum fee applies).

+

Example 2: take offer to buy 0.8 BTC at 4% premium to current market price results in (because 0.002 * 0.8 * sqrt(4) = 0.0032).

+ +Mining fees +

An offer maker only pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction. An offer taker pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction, deposit transaction, and payout transaction. This is because mining fees fluctuate and it's impossible for the offer maker to know what mining fees will be at the time their offer is taken.

+

Bisq uses this service to estimate fees, which can vary between 20 sat/b to 400 sat/b. Users can see actual mining fees after they've created or taken an offer.

Why do I need to keep my application online when I have an open offer?

If you have published an offer, your Bisq application needs to stay online so it is able to react in the case when another trader wants to take your offer. The MultiSig deposit transaction is created in that take-offer process. Be sure you have deactivated your computers standby mode, otherwise your Bisq application lose the internet connection (monitor standby is not a problem). If you shut down the application your offer gets removed from the distributed offerbook as it would become unavailable for others. After starting Bisq again your offer gets re-published. After the offer has been taken and the trade process has started both traders do NOT need to be online. Though they need to check for the status of the trade to see if some action is required from their side (e.g. sending fiat/altcoin or confirm receipt).

From 0db7520d5aa4679d104a7b48028a2a73bf44a528 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: steve Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 13:55:31 -0400 Subject: [PATCH 2/6] Fix fee calculation examples --- faq.html | 6 +++--- 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) diff --git a/faq.html b/faq.html index b6cabacf..d051be35 100644 --- a/faq.html +++ b/faq.html @@ -304,13 +304,13 @@

Trading Details

The trading fee for an offer maker is based on the trade amount and distance from the current market price:

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded> * <square root of percentage distance from current market price>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

Example 1: offer to sell 1 BTC at current market price results in 0.00005 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 * 0 = 0, so minimum fee applies).

-

Example 2: offer to sell 0.8 BTC at 4% premium to current market price results in (because 0.002 * 0.8 * sqrt(4) = 0.0032).

+

Example 2: offer to sell 0.8 BTC at 4% premium to current market price results in 0.0032 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.8 * sqrt(4) = 0.0032).

Offer taker fees

The trading fee for an offer taker is based only on the trade amount:

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

-

Example 1: take offer to buy 1 BTC at current market price results in 0.00005 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 * 0 = 0, so minimum fee applies).

-

Example 2: take offer to buy 0.8 BTC at 4% premium to current market price results in (because 0.002 * 0.8 * sqrt(4) = 0.0032).

+

Example 1: take offer to buy 1 BTC results in 0.002 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 = 0.002).

+

Example 2: take offer to buy 0.003 BTC results in 0.00005 BTC (because 0.003 * 0.002 = 0.000006, which is less than 0.00005, so minimum fee applies).

Mining fees

An offer maker only pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction. An offer taker pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction, deposit transaction, and payout transaction. This is because mining fees fluctuate and it's impossible for the offer maker to know what mining fees will be at the time their offer is taken.

From 4218c160dd5f385b6bf12109378bc22ed25a407c Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: steve Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:07:01 -0400 Subject: [PATCH 3/6] Remove second example for offer taker --- faq.html | 3 +-- 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 2 deletions(-) diff --git a/faq.html b/faq.html index d051be35..46ecaded 100644 --- a/faq.html +++ b/faq.html @@ -309,8 +309,7 @@

Trading Details

Offer taker fees

The trading fee for an offer taker is based only on the trade amount:

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

-

Example 1: take offer to buy 1 BTC results in 0.002 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 = 0.002).

-

Example 2: take offer to buy 0.003 BTC results in 0.00005 BTC (because 0.003 * 0.002 = 0.000006, which is less than 0.00005, so minimum fee applies).

+

Example: take offer to buy 0.05 BTC results in 0.001 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.05 = 0.001).

Mining fees

An offer maker only pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction. An offer taker pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction, deposit transaction, and payout transaction. This is because mining fees fluctuate and it's impossible for the offer maker to know what mining fees will be at the time their offer is taken.

From ba7a2b94c3f17f17c68db0e2ee9b21a458a2bd6b Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Chris Beams Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 21:49:34 +0200 Subject: [PATCH 4/6] Remove specific sat/byte mining fee range These values were no longer accurate and are probably best left out anyway, as there is fairly complex post-processing that we do to the BitcoinAverage values to ensure against fee spikes during the trading window. I'm afraid that attempting to explain this would just make the passage more difficult for people to deal with. In any case, I can recall no complaints from users about Bisq's mining fees, outside of times where mining fees were high for everyone. --- faq.html | 2 +- 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-) diff --git a/faq.html b/faq.html index 46ecaded..4c1f480f 100644 --- a/faq.html +++ b/faq.html @@ -313,7 +313,7 @@

Trading Details

Mining fees

An offer maker only pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction. An offer taker pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction, deposit transaction, and payout transaction. This is because mining fees fluctuate and it's impossible for the offer maker to know what mining fees will be at the time their offer is taken.

-

Bisq uses this service to estimate fees, which can vary between 20 sat/b to 400 sat/b. Users can see actual mining fees after they've created or taken an offer.

+

Bisq uses this service to estimate fees. Users can see actual mining fees after they've created or taken an offer.

Why do I need to keep my application online when I have an open offer?

If you have published an offer, your Bisq application needs to stay online so it is able to react in the case when another trader wants to take your offer. The MultiSig deposit transaction is created in that take-offer process. Be sure you have deactivated your computers standby mode, otherwise your Bisq application lose the internet connection (monitor standby is not a problem). If you shut down the application your offer gets removed from the distributed offerbook as it would become unavailable for others. After starting Bisq again your offer gets re-published. After the offer has been taken and the trade process has started both traders do NOT need to be online. Though they need to check for the status of the trade to see if some action is required from their side (e.g. sending fiat/altcoin or confirm receipt).

From b2594a1846c7ecc4c5c4b3eb646bc62c00f99544 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Chris Beams Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 22:06:45 +0200 Subject: [PATCH 5/6] Make examples grammatical sentences --- faq.html | 6 +++--- 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) diff --git a/faq.html b/faq.html index 4c1f480f..535ffebd 100644 --- a/faq.html +++ b/faq.html @@ -303,13 +303,13 @@

Trading Details

Offer maker fees

The trading fee for an offer maker is based on the trade amount and distance from the current market price:

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded> * <square root of percentage distance from current market price>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

-

Example 1: offer to sell 1 BTC at current market price results in 0.00005 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 * 0 = 0, so minimum fee applies).

-

Example 2: offer to sell 0.8 BTC at 4% premium to current market price results in 0.0032 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.8 * sqrt(4) = 0.0032).

+

Example 1: making an offer to sell 1 BTC at current market price results in a 0.00005 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 * 0 = 0, so minimum fee applies).

+

Example 2: making an offer to sell 0.8 BTC at 4% premium to current market price results in a 0.0032 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.8 * sqrt(4) = 0.0032).

Offer taker fees

The trading fee for an offer taker is based only on the trade amount:

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

-

Example: take offer to buy 0.05 BTC results in 0.001 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.05 = 0.001).

+

Example: taking an offer to buy 0.05 BTC results in a 0.001 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.05 = 0.001).

Mining fees

An offer maker only pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction. An offer taker pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction, deposit transaction, and payout transaction. This is because mining fees fluctuate and it's impossible for the offer maker to know what mining fees will be at the time their offer is taken.

From 5483008e28eedd3a3157248be2bd3ca467ba62a9 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Chris Beams Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 22:10:20 +0200 Subject: [PATCH 6/6] Use consistent trading amount in all examples This makes it easier to compare all three and reason about the differences. This change also lowers the amounts considerably from 1 BTC, 0.8 BTC to a more common value like 0.1 BTC, resulting in lower, more realistic actual fee values. Most trades on Bisq are well under 1 BTC these days. --- faq.html | 6 +++--- 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-) diff --git a/faq.html b/faq.html index 535ffebd..bdeacc33 100644 --- a/faq.html +++ b/faq.html @@ -303,13 +303,13 @@

Trading Details

Offer maker fees

The trading fee for an offer maker is based on the trade amount and distance from the current market price:

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded> * <square root of percentage distance from current market price>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

-

Example 1: making an offer to sell 1 BTC at current market price results in a 0.00005 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 1 * 0 = 0, so minimum fee applies).

-

Example 2: making an offer to sell 0.8 BTC at 4% premium to current market price results in a 0.0032 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.8 * sqrt(4) = 0.0032).

+

Example 1: making an offer to sell 0.1 BTC at current market price results in a 0.00005 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.1 * 0 = 0, so minimum fee applies).

+

Example 2: making an offer to sell 0.1 BTC at a 4% premium to current market price results in a 0.0004 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.1 * sqrt(4) = 0.0004).

Offer taker fees

The trading fee for an offer taker is based only on the trade amount:

0.002 * <amount of BTC being traded>
(Minimum fee is 0.00005 BTC)

-

Example: taking an offer to buy 0.05 BTC results in a 0.001 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.05 = 0.001).

+

Example: taking an offer to buy 0.1 BTC results in a 0.0002 BTC fee (because 0.002 * 0.1 = 0.0002).

Mining fees

An offer maker only pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction. An offer taker pays mining fees for the trade fee transaction, deposit transaction, and payout transaction. This is because mining fees fluctuate and it's impossible for the offer maker to know what mining fees will be at the time their offer is taken.