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Changed Harvard 7 Style (de) for Political Science #74

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zasq opened this Issue Jan 1, 2012 · 35 comments

5 participants

@zasq
zasq commented Jan 1, 2012

Hello!

I have changed the Harvard 7 Style (de) developed by Julian Onions and Sven Rothe to suit the needs for citing in Harvard style in German texts, especially in Political Science. Mainly, I changed the in-text citation style to [author year: page], avoiding the abbreviation for pages (S.) and changing the delimiters (no comma between author and year). For example: (Asbach 1999: 45) instead of (Asbach, 1999: S. 45) which is not the correct citing style in text for Political Science.

The style has been uploaded to:

git://gist.github.com/1546825.git

It might be interesting for others, as the in-text citation style meets the requirements of the "amerikanische Zitierweise" oder "Harvard Zitiersystem" (Harvard citation style in German) for theses in Political Science/Social Sciences. Is it possible to add it to the zotero style repository?

Thanks in advance!

Best,

Saskia Mestern

@adam3smith
Citation Style Language member

Saskia - thanks, sure we can put this up - I would like to have a more specific title, though - it seems to me that every political science institute in Germany has its own ideas about how a Harvard Style is supposed to look exactly - we could either name the style after the author of the style guide or where it's published (i.e. Jonas or Institut für Praxisforschung) or mazbe where it's used. Any thoughts?

@zasq
zasq commented Jan 2, 2012
@zasq
zasq commented Jan 2, 2012

I just found an error in the style. Its in the original harvard7de as well as and in this one: If you suppress the author for in-text citations (which is likely to happen often with this style) you get ( year: page) with a space instead of (year: page) without space. So I changed the citation part.

Hope that's okay now...

@adam3smith
Citation Style Language member
@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 2, 2012

Maybe it makes more sense to name the style after the Institut für Praxisforschung, which published the guide. ( http://www.institut-praxisforschung.ch/Publikationen/tabid/59/Default.aspx )

E.g.

<title>Harvard - Institut fuer Praxisforschung (German)</title>
<id>http://www.zotero.org/styles/harvard-institut-fuer-praxisforschung-de</id>

BTW, @adam3smith, we might want to ask Dan to add some addition filters to zotero.org/styles to filter by default-locale value (e.g. a pull-down menu with languages).

@adam3smith
Citation Style Language member
@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 2, 2012

Also, while language tags like "de" are fine in CSL style file names, I prefer to use the full language name in style titles ("German").

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 2, 2012

Are the style guide authors known any better than the institute?

@zasq
zasq commented Jan 6, 2012
@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 6, 2012

Harvard is by definition an author-date format, and as far as I know the Harvard numbering ("Harvard Reference format 7") was just made up to distinguish between different Harvard variants, and doesn't carry any useful information. As for "de" or "German"/"Deutsch", there are some language tags which are harder to interpret (like "eu" for Basque), so I rather write out full language names in English.

So I propose:

<title>Harvard - Institut fuer Praxisforschung (Bahr & Frackmann) (German)</title>
<id>http://www.zotero.org/styles/harvard-institut-fuer-praxisforschung-de</id>

(the only thing I'm not sure about is whether we should allow for diacritics in style titles, which affects the ability to search by style title; ideally, a search for "Institut fur" would also match "Institut für")

@zasq
zasq commented Jan 8, 2012

I agree with leaving out the (author-date) part as it's also labeled with that format.
What about marking the language with "German" and "de" - both variants are used in the style repository.
A real problem is that the search in the repository is not diacritics-sensitive. If you search for the "Kölner Institut..." you get nothing - you have to search for "Koelner...". There are style variants with "für" and with "fuer". "Fur" does not match with "für" in a search - you can try it. There should be a general decision what to use for non-English names and a notice how to search for such names.
Meanwhile, I will change the file to what rmzelle proposes.
BTW, after some testing I found there are still minor bugs in the bibliography - they are from the original template (harvard7de). I'll work it out step by step, as I'm new to this. The bug in the citations of books with editor and no author is fixed in Beta 3, it works fine there.

@mmoole
mmoole commented Jan 8, 2012

hmm, well,
the main difference between those two styles is - as far as is see - just the "more compact" or "short" form for citations, i.e. omitting comma, semi colons and some abbreviations....
That said, maybe it would be an idea to name the styles in a manner to express these differences?

On the other hand, harvard7de jumped out of my keyboard when harvard1 and harvard1de were not producing output like the professors I got wanted it to look like. But: the kind of "style guide" they gave us was really not complete and full of contradictions, additionally it was a kind of mixed copy paste from another source that is
http://qse.ifs.tuwien.ac.at/courses/Usability2/Literaturangaben.pdf
which was linked to in some revisions earlier until this commit as discussed there happened.

Since I wanted to do it the "complete idealistic" way long time ago, I also included all kind of über-correct punctuation and abbreviations for page (or whatever type one choses) to be displayed. This also allows you to cite chapters, columns figures, lines etc. which imho is quite useful.

But nevertheless we should find a comprehensible way of naming those styles so that one can easily find them.
I am perfectly fine with the new style and its name.
Would we also need to rename harvard7de? I think i would have no clear idea because of its mixed origin :-)

So in order to do it right, what could I do with the documentation link in harvard7de - maybe i should just write the differences i made into the description?

greetings
sven

@zasq
zasq commented Jan 8, 2012

Sven, you're right. I haven't made any changes to everything you did for the bibliography style - I only adapted the citation format to Bahr/Frackmann. I like their "Arbeitshilfe" for "Richtig zitieren nach der Harvard-Methode" and time come I will adapt the bibliography format a little bit closer to their suggestions. I didn't know their paper - I found the link in your style and now I'm writing a thesis with it! Bahr/Frackmann also show different ways to cite but always mark their favorite - I'll stick to that.
I wanted to use the harvard7de name (modified) too, so that it's transparent where I got the code from ;). It doesn't seem to be easy to find a good name for the style, but the labelling will help to sort this out, I hope.
BTW, the name of the style can't have "&" of course, so I changed that, too.
Best,
Saskia

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 9, 2012

Committed: ed7a13c

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 9, 2012

@mmoole, are you suggesting that we might be able to just replace harvard7de by this new style?

@mmoole
mmoole commented Jan 9, 2012

hmm, thats a good question... but then it would be lost? what style would the people use if they used this one before? i.e. if there are some ;-)
But maybe we should also find a new name for this one in order to better distinguish ... -
or on the other hand we could say that since its a kind of mixed style, the kind of generic naming with number 7 could also be OK like this...?
But on the other other hand... do we feel the urge to rename this style, too? Since there are some styles being renamed these weeks, how would a more logical name look like?
I think at first i would suggest something like "Harvard - detailed variant (German)" ...

greetings

@zasq
zasq commented Jan 10, 2012
@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 10, 2012

Note that we already have http://www.zotero.org/styles/din-1505-2 (by mmoole).

@mmoole
mmoole commented Jan 11, 2012

well, regarding in text citations its quite close except formatting, but the bibliography is a bit different. Din1505 also is often used when citing with labels, although i didnt find exactly that in the standard.
And since the din1505 shall be close to this standard - hence its name - we cant mix it with the harvard7 variant :-) but nobody proposed that :-)
Well, maybe it would be a good idea to make the name clearer and remove the "7" because it doesnt mean anything.
We could also name it the german way since its mainly specialized for this,
maybe "Harvard - ausführliche Zitierweise (German)" ?
what do we think?
On the other hand it would be nice for the people who use the style currently to not find out all of a sudden that the style they used is no longer there (at the repository). How would they know of the renameing? Are styles being updated automatically inside of Zotero?

greetings

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 11, 2012
@mmoole
mmoole commented Jan 11, 2012

ehm, no, not really.
This doc is quite general and describes citing in text, but refers to DIN 1505 and http://www.fh-hamburg.de/pers/Lorenzen/tum/litverz.ps which is now http://www.bui.haw-hamburg.de/fileadmin/redaktion/diplom/Lorenzen__litverz.pdf for bibliography .
-> btw we could replace the current link to haw-hamburg.de in the 1505 CSL with this one which actually works :-) Would you be so kind to to it?
Although the styles seem quite similar for in text citations, the bibliography brings more differences.

So I think the real question seems to be what documentation link should be in harvard7? Hmm, thats a good question, but i would suggest to still include the link to the doc of Institut für Praxisforschung.
It matches the style very closely, with the addition of locator (in text citation) and more punctuation.
We could also re-link to the doc from tuwien.at which is even more close. But: they propose a strange way of flipping forename and family name in bibliography which I did not include because it confuses me too much:

Bauer, Leonhard; Herbert Matis (1989): Geburt der Neuzeit. Vom Feudalsystem zur Marktgesellschaft. 2. Aufl. München: Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag.

These two are the most detailed and complete docs that I know of,

greetings

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Jan 11, 2012

I changed the link: 4184a0b

What I'm hoping for is that we are able to provide clear descriptions about what users can expect from these styles and/or how they differ from each other. Ideally that would mean being able to provide a (single) documentation link, and making sure that the style follows that documentation. I understand that these German styles are a bit difficult to categorize, though.

@adam3smith
Citation Style Language member

@rmzelle I think we can close this?

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Apr 1, 2013

Sure, although it still would be nice to have better titles and file names for harvard1de.csl, harvard1-unisa-gbfe.csl and harvard7de.csl.

@adam3smith
Citation Style Language member

Ah yes. My position would be to flip subsequent authors in harvard7 (even though Sven / mmoole doesn't like it ;-) and rename the style accordingly. I think we should enforce

provide clear descriptions about what users can expect from these styles and/or how they differ from each other. Ideally that would mean being able to provide a (single) documentation link.

even though I realize that is a bit tricky given the ad-hoc requirements by many departments/professors in Germany

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Apr 1, 2013

Fine with me.

@mmoole
mmoole commented Sep 21, 2015

aha, thanks to the hint from rmzelle I took again a look at the harvard7de style .. and since I did a bit of housekeeping lately, I found the source of all this evil :-)
The harvard7de style was made according to a document dating back to 2002 that can be found at various locations, for example here:
http://qse.ifs.tuwien.ac.at/courses/Usability2/Literaturangaben.pdf
########## edit: well, I wrote about that before in this thread :-)
Yes, my professor told us to use this kind of style at that time (that was about 2007, at quite another university).....
As that would be to easy, I could not find the original source for this style document... But researching found out:
FHV: Fachhochschule Voralberg (the university name)
BM: could be anything, maybe an abbreviation for a study program... I didn't find something that makes sense.

So I went to their library site, and they even have a more recent document online:
http://www.fhv.at/media/pdf/bibliothek/schreibzentrum/leitfaden-wissenschaftlichen-arbeiten
Here they even talk about Zotero and do no more make 'one of a kind' things like flipping first name and family names of the authors in bibliography. They talk more generally of styles and do no more make such detailed specifications as in the document dating back to 2002. And they even have a style with their name 'Fachhochschule Voralberg' in the styles library at Zotero! 👍

So to conclude, I think this all comes down to how much the harvard7de style is used in reality. If there are lots of people using it, I think we should keep it, but maybe rename it to something like 'Harvard Fachhochschule Voralberg (archived)' or similar to express that it is outdated.
If the style isn't used at all, then let's delete it.
But from time to time I get emails (maybe 3 a year) from people that either have a fix or a question for the style. I guess this also comes from people looking for the 'generic' harvard style, and this looks like one..
What do you think?
By the way, is there something like usage statistics for the styles? I think the downloads alone may be also interesting numbers, but usage would be actually more relevant for this question...

I hope that wasn't too much to read :-)

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Sep 22, 2015

@mmoole, thanks for your sleuthing! I emailed Frank Weber from FHV, who contributed the https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/fachhochschule-vorarlberg.csl style. Maybe he can shed some light on the origin of that PDF.

@franklin66

Hi Rintze, hi all,
Wow, this is interesting. Almost a bit like a detective story ;).
Well, let me think. I discovered Zotero during summer break 2008 and introduced it to some lecturers when the semester started. I started fiddling about with styles about March 2009. I picked the harvard7de-style because it was pretty close to what our guide for citations demanded.
The original contributors of the style I used were Julian Onions and Sven Rothe.
I never realised that the documentation link had a connection to our university!
FHV stands for "Fachhochschule Vorarlberg", the german name of our university.
I am quite sure that "BM" stands for "Brigitte Mayer". She is a lecturer who teaches scientific writing and together with our head librarian she has been responsible for our FHV-guide for scientific writing for many years. But she didn't hear about Zotero before I introduced it to her in 2008, and the harvard7-style existed before that.
The URL of the documentation link shows us, that the guide somehow showed up on the servers of the "TU Wien" which is the Technical University of Vienna. The URL also shows us, that the document was used by the Institute for Quality Software Engineering, probably in a course about usabilty.

So maybe this is what happened: One of our professors (there are 2 or three that teach usablity at the FHV) gave a course at the TU Vienna - long before I had discovered Zotero. He asked his students to write a paper, demanding them to cite according to the guide he provided from the FHV.
Maybe Julian Onions and Sven Rothe were students in that course and developed the harvard7-style which I later found in the repository?
I will ask Mrs. Mayer about the document and I will also ask the professors. Maybe we can shed more light on this matter after this.
If the story I came up with is true or close to the truth I don't think a ot of people are using the style any more, as it isn't an "official" style of an institution. As regards the FHV we've been developping our own style and we're not using the harvard7-style.

I hope I could help,
Frank

@rmzelle
Citation Style Language member
rmzelle commented Sep 22, 2015

Julian Onions contributed to many of the first few CSL styles, and his name might just have carried over from another style. I'm not sure about Sven Rothe.

It would be great if Mrs. Mayer could confirm she had a hand in writing the "Literaturangaben.pdf" PDF, and if she can tell whether this citation format has been superseded by the current format as used in https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/fachhochschule-vorarlberg.csl.

@mmoole
mmoole commented Sep 22, 2015

Hi, yes, indeed, Julian was the creator of the style that this style is derived from.
But my way to this style is as described above, more detailed: i was in a course where a professor gave us handouts that contained this document' contents. So at first I hunted down that very PDF that could serve as a real reference, and then was desperately searching for a name. Since it had to happen quickly I just added another harvard variant. I think there where about 3 or 4 at this time, in 2007 or 2008.

I wonder if there are some statistics from zotero or the styles themselves...?

@franklin66

Do you remember that professors name?

@franklin66

I spoke with Prof. Mayer and it is one of her documents. She dates it back to 2002 or 2003, but she never had anything to do with the TU Vienna. So I'll ask two professores who might have taught at the TU Vienna.

@franklin66

Ah - and yes, this format has been superseded by our current format.

@franklin66

I spoke with the professors and one of them thinks, that this document found its way to the TU vienna via some PHD-Students; but its only an assumption. Anyway, I close the case here.

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