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@@ -67,8 +67,8 @@ Byron Trial, Day 26 (Week 7)
* ...
* Judge (voice rising): What evidence of a connection is there?
* Crown: He got emails from them. He responded to some of them. He followed them on twitter. He was providing pictures via Flickr and the g20report to them...
-* Crown: The evidence is being brought forward to show the natures of these groups. They followed through on their trheats!
-* Judge: But they weren't found guilty of doing anything black block? Of activly doing something?
+* Crown: The evidence is being brought forward to show the natures of these groups. They followed through on their threats!
+* Judge: But they weren't found guilty of doing anything black block? Of actively doing something?
* Crown: Yes.
* Crown: You have evidence...
* Judge: How do I know that their pleading guilty is relevant to the TCMN?
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+Byron Trial, Day 27 (Week 7)
+============================
+
+**Summary:** The defense finishes examination in chief of Fredrick Supinski and the Crown conducts its crossexamination. The Defense rests its case. Submissions are put off until Thursday.
+
+***************
+
+* Do you have the excerpt for may 29th before you?
+ * Yes
+* !seen fredrick, what does that mean?
+ * A command to a program that runs as a user in the channel.
+ * The next line is doorbot, which responds.
+ * Responds how long ago that person was seen.
+* doorbot is not a human?
+ * No.
+* And it's responding to Byron's question.
+ * Yes.
+* And when it brings up "fredrick: sounds like..."
+ * Was the last thing you said.
+* Byron was looking for you?
+ * Or when I was last active.
+* Byron then says, "Wanted to ask him about CRA..."
+ * Yes.
+* You respond that the 29th of may launch canceled.
+ * The event I mentioned previously was canceled because of weather.
+* Then you provide the website again?
+ * Yes.
+* Byron responds that related, then you provide a link to EEE. What is EEE?
+ * The American CRA counterpart. They have agreements, so equivalent certifications can be used.
+* Byron says: we should do a project/presentation on how to legally get into rocketry...
+ * Yes. We'd put so much work in, we figured we should share that knowledge with the community.
+* What is "project/presentation" as it is referenced?
+ * A powerpoint presentation we'd give at hacklab or similar communities.
+* You say "I'll hopefully have more time in a week"; what is that a reference to?
+ * I was being courted for a new job.
+* Does that mean you didn't apply for it?
+ * ...
+* ..
+ * I didn't exactly apply, the director of security came to me and asked me to come for an interview.
+* Why would that give you more free time?
+ * I wouldn't have been running my own company. It would be 9-5. Clients don't always pay on time...
+* Sounds like a defense lawyer.
+* Byron: I have the (chemicals) but I will research safety and Canadian law first.
+* You respond that you heard the engines need to be approved by transport canada...
+ * Once you get to a certain altitude....
+* The conversation goes on about the cost of rockets...
+* You ask "whether it is more expensive to make it yourself"; what is it?
+ * Rocket engines.
+* Byron says: In the short term no, but in the long term yes. I only need 20 pound bags of salt.
+ * Yes.
+* We're now reaching a section that is already in the Agreed Statement of Fact.
+* This isn't in the log, why not?
+ * We talked a private conversations yesterday. This is one.
+* So there was a sidebar, private discussion with Byron.
+ * Yes.
+* On the single page, I've just passed you, you say that you're interviewing for a new job. Byron says kick ass, and then talks about some contracts he is working on...
+* If I get the job, I'd definitely be willing to split the costs for certifications. Split the cost in half. What does this mean?
+ * A lot of the parts for the rockets are reusable, so we could share the costs of those.
+ * We wouldn't have to buy doubles.
+* Going back to the May 29th excerpt...
+* Judge: Not yet an exhibit...
+ * (Made exhibit.)
+* Judge: This is back at hacklab?
+ * Witness: Yes.
+* Defense: Byron says: I don't know what to believe. Potassium chlorate isn't that sensitive by itself. I've made some oxidizer for rocket fuel... notdavis and aonomus chim in. You're not active?
+ * Yes.
+* Defense: aonomus talks about making TATP and trying to set it off by hand. He found it's melting point! Byron responds about him being stupid, TATP is the dumbest thing ever. Were you active at this point?
+ * I may have walked away from my computer at this point.
+* (New excerpt)
+* You: I have consistent income now, consistent funds = time to start my rockets.
+* You got your current jobs?
+ * Yes.
+* (New excerpt)
+* A continuation of the hacklab chat?
+ * Yes.
+* It starts with Byron providing a link, and asking if that's the one...
+* Byron says he's joining CAR. You say you will when you get the money.
+* You talk about the process.
+* Byron responds "time to get my geek on"
+* Then says: "we're going to blow people away with this presentation"
+* This matches your recollection?
+ * Yes.
+* You then go on to talk about getting your son into rocketry. Then there's a comment about putting your son in a rocket. That was a joke?
+ * Yes. Getting in a rocket will be his decision when he's older.
+ * (everyone laghes)
+* Byron goes "frydrick: ..."
+ * That means he's talking to you.
+* Byron talks about how he needs an explosive manufacturing to make rocket engines. He could make them for "educational use" but then couldn't transport it.
+* You go: Oh ouch.
+* Byron goes: still going to join CAR and NAPAS, though.
+* Byron talks about maybe finding someone who already has it sorted out. What does this mean?
+ * It's a long process...
+* Byron says: what an awesome license to have. Another one for my collection!
+* You say: You should do a background check in a year, see if you're on a terrorist watch list.
+* Byron responds that he's gone through three in the last year, they all came back clean. If he isn't one yet, he never weill!
+* What was this about?
+ * I just went through a background check to work for G&D...
+* ...
+ * He just sent emails to a government organizations asking about explosives. Who knows what happens when you do that.
+* That was your concern when you wrote that?
+ * Yes.
+* That was from the hacklab chat room?
+ * yes.
+* (next chat)
+* Byron: got some checks for CAR and NAPAS.
+* isosphere responds...
+ * Don't know when isosphere
+* Byron: responding when...
+* aonomus: the_goat, don't blow yourself up.
+* Byron: oh, right, you weren't in channel when I found out I needed an explosives manufacturing license!
+
+* One loose end from yesterday.
+* How long were you involved in collecting rocket components.
+ * I gave you a receipt for the first thing I purchased.
+* What is it?
+ * A commercial invoice from a company named sparkfun
+ * Because there was a deal where they would give $100 rebate.
+* When?
+ * Jan ... 2010.
+* And the $100 rebate was why you purchased now?
+ * Yes.
+* nine-degrees of freedom?
+ * Three gyroscopes, three inertia, three magnetic...
+ * Three sensors for each axis
+* What would you use that for?
+ * Inertial measurement for that unit.
+ * The measurements would be...
+* Could you steer a rocket with it?
+ * I have it hear.
+* Judge (sounding alarmed): Is it going to be an exhibit?
+ * Defense: I don't think that's necessary.
+* Judge: Good.
+* Could you steer with it?
+ * There's no moving parts, no way to exert force.
+* Judge: Inertial sensors?
+ * There's other sensors....
+
+* That's all. My friend will have some questions for you.
+
+* Judge: Ms. Nadeau, are you ready?
+* Crown: Yes. But I want to use my computer... Just let get it going.
+
+* Crown: This little tiny circuit board.
+ * I believe so, it was.
+* You bought it because it was a deal, not because you needed it.
+ * Yes, it was in the planning.
+* You were looking for a contract...
+ * What do you mean?
+* Sorry, you were being courted for a job.
+ * It wasn't so mcuh budget. I had a son and I didn't have a very steady income, so I couldn't really set money aside.
+* You couldn't set money aside?
+ * yes.
+ * We were going through the finacial crisis.
+ * I was recovering from that.
+* $145 total, $100 rebate, that's a good detail?
+ * Yes.
+* Did Mr. Sonne split that?
+ * No, at the time I charged $135 an hour, that's twenty of my times.
+* So when you talked about splitting the costs, you were talking about the licensing process?
+ * This would the be the payload.
+ * We were talking ...
+* No money had changed hands at this point?
+ * No. We shared cofee, maybe bought coffeee.
+* TASK, does that have to do with countersurveillance.
+ * ... What do you mean by countersurveillance.
+* Countersurveillance...
+ * Trying to figure out who is surveiling you. Lots of definitions.
+* ..
+* For you, it's trying to find people spying on companies you protect?
+ * I work to provide security for G&R... To make sure our information is secure.
+* Secure from what?
+ * You don't just say that something is secure or not...
+* From what?
+ * External threats.
+ * Actually, I need to correct myself: threats.
+ * Foreign, internal, criminals, government.
+* Now you said hacklab tries to avoid hackers having a bad reputation?
+ * By hacker, you might mean people who try to break into computers.
+ * But another definition is someone who might also be called a maker. Working on projects, making hardware..
+* So the purpose of hacklab is not to teach people how to hack into computers.
+ * Yes. Though there's also an awareness of ...
+* You need to know your enemy?
+ * ... You need to no your risks
+ * You need to make sure that the value of the information, that the defenses you put in place aren't excessive.
+* You said that safety is important?
+ * Yes.
+* Not just for individuals, but also for the reputation of the group. You don't want the reputation of the group to be people who do dangerous experiments.
+ * I don't understand what your asking.
+* I'm saying you don't want to ...
+ * ...
+* I don't really understand that answer.
+ * I think your asking...
+* Was your intent with hacklab to avoid people thinking things were dangerous...
+* You said that the reputation of hackers was bad, and you want to avoid it.
+ * I wouldn't say hacklab is in line with that.
+* You wouldn't want your hacklab to have a reputation was dangerous.
+ * Yes.
+* And you didn't want to do anything illegal?
+ * Yes.
+* TASK had law enforcement there?
+ * Yes.
+* There wasn't discussion about how to decrypt police communication?
+ * I think your referring to Byron's presentation?
+* I'm asking a general question.
+ * There was a presentation by Byron Sonne, RF countersurveillance. Byron talked about channels...
+* There were no discussion how to break security system...
+ * Because of security is a process, we talked at about how to make it better, how to fix it. How to break system. I don't recall having such a conversation myself, but I'm sure such things took place.
+* If it came up that a gap was in security, that is something you would want reveal it...
+ * If there is...
+* If there is a glaring hole does that get talked about? Say in a bank?
+ * Yes.
+* And would you publish that?
+ * Yes.
+* ...
+* Would you tell the company in advance?
+ * Sometimes. If there's an easy way to get in contact. But you also want alert the public, the account holders. Public disclosure is a very common practice.
+* ...
+* You wouldn't go and publish exactly how it could be done.
+ * I'm not sure exactly what asking.
+* OK. A basic example. If you found how a flaw in a security panel where you could enter four digits and get through.
+ * ... I would say that you could enter 4 digits, not build.
+* Hacklab is a forum....
+ * It's more a workspace. Have you been by?
+* I don't think I'm welcome.
+* Judge: Perhaps we should make a group trip.
+* ...
+* You would turn away kids who want to hack into computers?
+ * It depends.
+* ...
+* If someone wanted to break into computers and do illegal things?
+ * Discouraged, or if an operator around kicked.
+* Operators?
+ * ...
+* Operators are hacklab members?
+ * Generally....
+* ...
+* Who was in charge of the group (irc channel)?
+ * Not exactly sure...
+
+**Break**
+
+* I was asking you about hacklab's policies with respect to discouraging...
+* Is there an email list for hacklab?
+ * A distribution list, yes.
+* If you wanted to talk to everyone?
+ * not all hacklab members are on list
+* How many people?
+ * It would be a pure guess on my part. I don't know. 25, 50? Which list are you talking about?
+* discussions@lists.hacklab.to?
+ * One of them.
+* Is that a particular list?
+ * That was the publich channel.
+* So I could sign up to be on this list?
+ * Yes.
+* Is there anyone who monitors this, to make sure its inline with the intentions?
+ * Presumably.
+* Did you see this email?
+
+**Tickling the Dragon Thread**
+
+* "So I feel in a civilly disobedient mood, but what's new about that, eh?"
+* Did you know Mr. Sonne well?
+ * Yes...
+* Civilly disobedient mood, whats new about that, does that match you?
+* Defense: objection, if you're asking about Mr. Sonne's character...
+* Judge: Is this character? Or trying to find out if this is consistent?
+* Judge: If the was rephrased...
+* Defense: If you could rephrase it...
+* Crown: ...
+* Judge: Will rephrase...
+* Crown: My frustration is that the witness is not responsive.
+
+* (Witness brought in)
+* I understand Mr. Sonne is your friend?
+ * Yes.
+* And you don't want to hurt him?
+ * ... A bit, but I'm hear to speak to these facts.
+* What was your reaction at the time?
+ * I might not have had any reaction at all...
+* ...
+ * The word "almost" is significant...
+* It would seem to me to be contrary to hacklab's mandate...
+ * ...
+* You said that it was important to hacklab to not do anything illegal...
+ * Yes...
+* Did that alarm you?
+ * Yes.
+* Did that surprise you?
+ * Yes, a bit.
+* ... G20/G8 monitoring & documenting... Would you have been interested in that?
+ * I might have made some comments, but otherwise, no. I'd have to see the
+* ... Tickling the dragon? What would that be?
+ * dragon could be a metaphor for government
+* What would tickling be?
+ * ... I'd have to see the chain, I don't really remember.
+* I'm asking you about this email.
+ * Poking the government into some sort of response. Having them overreact.
+* This is interfering with government security?
+ * I don't think so.
+* almost guaranteed to be illegal?
+ *
+* Did you get involved in this?
+ * Yes.
+* In what?
+ * A discussion about wireless transmitters.
+ * I talked about ...
+* Who's transmitters/
+ * Anyone's...
+* ...
+* Were you aware that Mr. Sonne was building a magnetron?
+ * yes. I'm was familiar with that.
+* Did you follow Mr. Sonne's blog?
+ * No.
+* ...
+ * You're essentially talking about the waveguide. The idea wasn't to interfere with public communications, but to test it on a ...
+* It was to see if he could create a device capable of burning out an expensive communication system?
+ * A 2.4ghz one...
+* I'm suggesting to you that it was intended to burn out communication systems...
+ * I can tell you that it would only interfere in 2.4ghz
+* I'm asking about his intent?
+ * ... He wanted to build...
+* ...
+ * 2.4ghz devices like laptop.... I don't think satellite.
+* Based on this comment, "Can a dude in a garage make a device capable of burning out expensive communication systems and ..."
+ * To see if there's the capability.
+* ...
+* Let's talk about rocketry.
+* Did you have any growing up?
+ * My friends did.
+* Rocket kits?
+ * With my friends...
+ * Tiny ones that you don't need license for.
+* So you understand the science?
+ * A bit. I don't think I could get a job.
+* You can buy different size?
+ * Yes.
+* And you need certification before you get the bigger ones?
+ * Yes.
+* ... Books
+ * I really value books.
+* With the levels of certification, to get the rockets you want to send up?
+ * ...
+* It goes straight up?
+ * No. It's basically impossible to get it go straight out.
+* But...
+ * ... Accidents to happen.
+* If we were to go and fire a rocket, we would go to a big field where nothing is around?
+ * There's specific requirements.
+* Would you launch them in your backyard?
+ * No.
+* Is the interest in seeing how far you can send it?
+ * What do you mean by far?
+* The best rocket would go highest?
+ * It's a hobby...
+ * Rocketry has been a really interesting hobby for me. Space exploration. I'd like my son to get into it a really young age. Potentially working for space stuff...
+* What was your interest?
+ * ...
+* The actual rockets are more powerful.
+ * They use it ...
+* Do you have any certifications now?
+ * No. I was scared that if I continued I could get prosecuted.
+* Did you have any rocket fuel at home?
+ * No.
+* You were researching how to do thing legally?
+ * Yes.
+* Your interest seemed to lie in the rocket itself. And what you could learn from it.
+ * I'm not sure what you're asking. It was all one package. It was the learning experience, the electronics... You don't just have to avionics systems, you can do weather sensors...
+* You're looking at telemetry, GPS, recovery systems, amateur TV?
+ * Yes.
+* That seems complicated?
+ * To me.
+* The changes that were made to the schematic you did yourself?
+ * Yes.
+* ...
+* You talked about this at hacklab?
+ * Yes. At hacklab and the channel.
+* Is it fair to say you brought it into hacklab?
+ * Yes.
+* ...
+ * Collect data so I can design graphs, plot the path...
+* I want to return to a question we got off track on.
+* You aren't going to go down the road and try to send it to me?
+ * That would be illegal.
+* It's illegal to target?
+ * To target a solid target. You could target going vertical or towards the sun.
+* I'd like to show you a picture.
+* Is that a familiar picute?
+* What is it?
+ * Three balloons, you tie it to your truck and it looks like your being attacked.
+* Why?
+ * It's numerous.
+* ...
+* Are you familiar with "rocket launcher"; I'd suggest it is about the weaponized use of rockets...
+ * Can I see it?
+ * I can't tell you if I've seen it before.
+* You're not familiar with this?
+ * I read a lot of documents like this. If I saw something like that I might be interested in safe handling.
+* You were interested in weaponized rockets?
+ * No, but there's a lot of information that might be gained from something like this.
+* That article that sparked your interest didn't talk about rocket engines?
+ * I don't recall. Their website certainly did. Lots of performance analysis...
+* I'm asking about the article.
+ * Let me read it.
+ * No mention.
+* Since you were a kid, you haven't built a rocket?
+ * No.
+* And other than the piece ...
+* And you haven't since?
+ * I was scared. I didn't want to be siting where he was...
+* Surely you didn't think the CAR would get you arrested?
+ * I didn't know.
+* ..
+* Let me ask you about your relationship with Mr. Sonne.
+* You went to his home?
+ * No.
+* Did you go to his home and speak with his wife?
+ * Why would I do that?
+ * No.
+* You knew a bit about his background.
+ * Yes.
+* And you knew that his personal situation with ...?
+ * Yes.
+* Did you know that he had anxiety issues?
+ * No.
+* Did you know about his anxiety drugs?
+* Defense: objection...
+ * Crown: It's just determine how well he knew Mr. Sonne.
+* Did you know why he had the nickname the goat?
+ * Because he was interested in goats?
+* You talked about goats with him?
+ * No.
+* Do you know the origin of the name?
+ * No.
+* When did Mr. Sonne get involved in your rocketry project?
+ * ...
+ * January?
+* ...
+ * We talked previously.
+ * In the sprint of 2009, there was a competition to design an autonomous boat that would traverse an obstacle course. Thhat was somewhat related to rocketry....
+* Was Byron involved?
+ * It happened at hacklab.
+* Was Byron at the contest?
+ * I don't know.
+* When did you start working together?
+ * ...
+* Was it in May 2010?
+ * It would have been getting more serious.
+ * The first time I started going to the lab, maybe april or may 2010.
+* At no point did you say to Mr. Sonne: "Let's build a rocket engine together."
+* You knew that he was building one?
+ * I knew that he was doing research, and components and maybe some chemicals... Yes.
+* It seems like you would be very certain to make sure you had the license before getting rocket fuel?
+ * Yes. We definitely wanted to make sure everything was licensed...
+ * Byron was working on a chemist from UofT to some extent.
+
+**Lunch**
+
+* Witness: Regarding one of the earlier questions asked by the Crown, I'm concerned I may have misspoken.
+* Judge: May he?
+* Crown:
+* Witness: I don't recall if you asked me if I only purchased or acquired?
+* Crown: Purchased. But you acquired others?
+* Witness: Non ... computer, USB flash disks. They're general purpose things...
+* Crown: You didn't acquire any materials to build a rocket engine?
+ * No.
+* You weren't planning to build it?
+ * Not yet.
+* The rocket engine is actually a fairly small part of the rocket?
+ * I wouldn't say so.
+* So I bought some model rocket engine...
+ * Smallest size, size 'a'.
+* How are they made?
+ * I'm not sure.
+* How are the ones you would have made made?
+ * As they get bigger, you see both liquid and solid fuels, different shares.
+* ..
+* I want to focus on the kind of rockets you would have built and what you were looking at.
+ * We were looking at solid engines.
+ * Other people were designing it.
+ * I'm not an expert and can't talk about the design.
+ * There was a chemist involved.
+* I want to ask about your chat.
+* It was public?
+ * Yes.
+* Were people concerned about whether law enforcement might be listening?
+ * At the time, not really. Afterwards, yes.
+* Was Mr. Sonne concerned?
+ * Not that I know. He may even have wanted it.
+* Wanted it?
+ * He would have liked it to demonstrate that he was being public and transparent.
+* chat log: "I do have safe hobbies, I garden and I'm not a psycho..."
+* At the top of the page... frysteev: the_goat: what are you're G20 plans?
+* Byron responds: They include not saying anything incriminating on IRC.
+* Were you involved in that chat.
+ * Let me look...
+* Better question, do you recall that?
+ * No. But I remember lots of people talking about G20 plans.
+* We talked a lot about Mr. Sonne interest in rocketry. Was he interested in explosives? explosions?
+ * I like explosions.
+* I'm asking about Mr. Sonne?
+ * I wouldn't know.
+* Do you remember talking with Mr. Sonne about explosions?
+ * They're a fairly common topic online.
+* Conversation later on... notdavis:
+* Who is notdavis?
+ * I don't know.
+* Explosion at plant, Byron calls it awesome.
+* aonomus directing at goat: tells him to read into the T2 laboratories accident.
+* the_goat responds and they talk about the explosion.
+* US chemical... cut down on homegrown terrorists, let them make all the TATP they want...
+* Great shot of workers catching the shockwave...
+* ...
+* the_goat: ...
+* reaction designed by idiots...
+* bang
+* the_goat: hehe
+* ...
+* the_goat: hahah
+* T2 engineers totally dropped the ball... idiots.
+* aonomus: common mistake
+* the_goat: easy mistake, I'm sure.
+* ..
+ * Seen explosion documentaries on discovery channel.
+* ...
+* the_goat: man do, I watch USCSB or mythbusters. They both have great explosions!
+* ...
+* the_goat: stupid explosion. Don't put...
+* What do brackets mean?
+ * Ah.. the same thing in real life.
+* ...
+* Byron watching video about explosives...
+* ...
+* Why does Al Queada need planes, they could get people into different plants...
+* ...
+* Six different conversations about explosions over this day?
+ * I wasn't counting, and it isn't clear that they are separate conversations... often people will go a watch a video and then come back and comment.
+* ...
+* But I'm a stability over speed kind of guy. The "* Optic stares at the_goat". "Stop blowing things up". "It wasn't me, I swear. Probably gas."
+* ...
+* aonomus is talking about feralizer.
+* goatlab is Mr. Sonne?
+ * I'd assume.
+* Oklahoma city...
+* digimer says he has enough to make a hell of an explosive?
+* That's 9 instances of explosives. Do you now recall if he was fascinated?
+ * ...
+* So was everyone at hacklab fascinated by eplosives?
+ * Several explosions happened at that time. It was a common topic of discussion.
+* Would you say he was obsessed?
+ * No. I wouldn't say that.
+* Fascinated?
+ * Yes.
+* Did he ever talk to you about building bombs with his Brother?
+* Defense objects, witness leaves while we clarify source of the question.
+* Defense has been struck completely by surprise, wants to make sure there is a good faith basis that it is being put to the witness in a public forum.
+* Prosecution can't find the resource.
+**Break**
+* Defense: My friend has a basis for her question. Depending on the answer...
+* Judge: Bring the witness back in.
+* Did Mr. Sonne ever talk to you about building bombs in his garage growing up?
+ * I don't recall a conversation like that.
+* Back to the chats...
+* I can't believe I'm jumping through all this for salt... Do you know what he is referring to?
+ * No.
+* Conversation between alistair and...
+* (talk about electrolysis)
+* the_goat: Too big an electrode, you reduce the chlorate back into chloride...
+* Do you know what chlorate is?
+ * No.
+* ...
+* Do electrolize potassium chlorate and make sugar and rocket fuel.
+* Large rocket engines are hard to find...
+* You repond about needing certification.
+* Then Byron talks about ...
+* You want him to get certified instead of making rocket fuel.
+ * I want him to get certified.
+* ...
+* I'm commenting on the fact that he might.
+* Did you believe he was making rocket fuel?
+ * No.
+* He was electrolyzing to create potassium chlorate to make it rocket fuel.
+* Do you know what it looks like to electrolyze a substance and make it into potassium chlorate?
+ * no.
+* Googling rocketry and CAR comes up?
+ * It would surprise me if it was right at the top.
+* But fairly easy to find?
+ * Yes.
+* ...
+* Launch day, mr. Sonne wasn't interested?
+* (cut off)
+* Judge cuts in
+ * At the lab, he was interested. I don't recall if we had plans.
+* ...
+* He's started making fuel?
+ * He's maybe done some intial stages.
+* .. Cautioning him to di it in a legal way?
+ * Yes.
+* Nozzle design? ... Where?
+ * Near the engine.
+* Mr. Sonne: I'm just going to rip off designs from other people? I thought for level 4 you needed to design one from scratch?
+ * That's not how science works. We aren't starting from scratch without rockets existing.
+* ...
+* Sonne: I've only started small scale electrolysis.
+ * At this point, you must have known he was producing...
+ * I haven't started the process of getting certified.
+* ...
+* Concerned about making fuel.
+ * He's doing work towards it, yes.
+* ...
+* Sonne: There's this guy that's really hard core...
+* You remind him about certification.
+* You're concerned that he's making them and not going through the right channels.
+ * ...
+* You again cautioned him again about certification.
+ * This is me sharing information.
+ * This is other conversations...
+* ...
+* 350 Watt LiPo battery
+* What is he talking about?
+ * Lipo batteries, when they over heat.
+ * Exploding laptop.
+ * That's a fairly substantial amount of power.
+* Moving on...
+* ...
+* High power rockets need to approved by Transport Canada.
+* You've been to Mr. Sonne's Flickr page.
+* Looking at a photo, do you know what this is?
+ * (bag) No.
+ * (electroysis cell) No.
+* (leading about an electrlysis cell, reading from the chat and then showing a photo)
+ * No.
+
+**Break**
+
+* You don't know chemicals involved in rocket engines?
+ * I know aluminium is sometimes used in solids. And some things used in liquids.
+* You didn't believe he was making rocket fuel at his home?
+ * No. Not rocket fuel itself.
+* You were pretty close to Mr. Sonne.
+* You had his phone number?
+ * No. I had to reach out to leave a phone message when he was arrested.
+* His email address?
+ * Yes.
+* He had yours?
+ * Probably.
+* If he wanted to get ahold of you, there were a number of ways.
+ * Yes.
+* He could have called you to ask by that link?
+ * He could have.
+* ...
+* A week later, you say "those are excellent, I used them yesterday." Is that a site the goat was posting?
+* He says is that the site? And then talks about it being a pain.
+* You says its not, you just need to follow the process...
+ * Yes.
+* Talked from a guy from CAR, needs to get license for manufacturing explosives...
+* Byron needs a separate building.
+* It's fairly clear he can't make them at his house.
+ * Yes
+* ...
+* Earlier you talked about checking to see if he wound up on a terrorist watchlist. You told Mr. DiLuca that "maybe, who knows". Did you mean that applying for a license...
+ * I mean that emailing them about manufacturing explosives, that might be a honey pot. That might get you on a restricted parties list.
+ * We do an anti-terrorist list.
+* You believed that at the time?
+ * I believe it was a possibility.
+ * There's risk analysis everywhere.
+* ...
+* Getting a CAR license...
+* Who's iosphere?
+ * don't know.
+* the_goat says: You missed the part where I can't make it without a explosives manufacturing license ...
+* At this point, it is pretty clear that it would be fool hardy to make it at home?
+ * ...
+* (repeat)
+ * Yes.
+* You were concerned that applying for rocketry licenses would get you on a list? Do you know what was found at his home?
+ * No.
+* Were you aware of...
+ *
+ * Cold packs
+ * For biking
+ * Were you aware that he took them apart?
+ * Yes.
+ * Why did you mention ice packs?
+ * ...
+ * Why?
+ * He was growing crops in his back yard.
+ * Do you know what potassium permagonate?
+ * No.
+ * Are you aware about the ...
+ * Doesn't mean anything to me.
+ * You mentioned earlier that you know what TATP is?
+ * Only because it was mentioned in the press.
+ * ANFO?
+ * Maybe in the context of
+ * HTD?
+ * No.
+ * HDN?
+ * No. Doesn't mean anything to me.
+ * You've had a fair bit of interaction since he got out?
+ * Twice in jail.
+ * A few other times. A barbecue being held at his home.
+ * You must have talked to him about helping him by explaining to the court his interest in...
+ * I think I talk to Byron's lawyers...
+ * You met with Mr. Tilly?
+ * Yes. Several Times.
+ * You talked to the Toronto Life reporter?
+ * Yes.
+ * Did you talk to Mr. Sonne before doing so?
+ * The reporter -- she's in the court room now -- but I didn't want to talk without Byron's permission. So I asked Madison Kelly to ask him...
+ * ...
+ * Asked about what licenses they would need.
+ * Did you ask Ministry Canada about what material needs...
+ * Yes.
+ * Sonne bought some chemicals but they put it on hold... Was that information you gave?
+ * Maybe...
+ * Was that an accurate sentence?
+ * It might be better to use Sonne than them?
+ * As soon as you got word from the CRA, you need to...
+ * Yes.
+ * The police contacted you to ask about the rocketry, but you declined to speak to them. Why?
+ * I sought independent advice and decided to not make a comment.
+
+* Defense: That is the evidence.
+* Judge: Anything in reply.
+* Crown: No.
+
+* Judge: Submissions... Written parts of submissions?
+* Not a traditional written submission. Pulling evidence together... Making chronologies.
+
+**Court resumes Thursday at 10:30**
+
View
2 days.md
@@ -87,7 +87,9 @@ Week 7
[Day 26 (March 26, 2012)](https://github.com/colah/ByronTrialNotes/blob/master/daily-notes/day26.md): The Crown rests its case. Arguments about the admissibility of goat as an acronym for "Greatest of All Times" and the fact that Leah Henderson and Mandy Hiscocks plead guilty -- both found inadmissible, Judge says she doen't need to hear from the Defense. The Defense's first witness, Fredrick Supinski, begins his testimony, discussing the security industry, hacklab, 3D printers, his and Byron's shared rocketry hobby, and some excerpts from chat logs.
+[Day 27 (March 27, 2012)](https://github.com/colah/ByronTrialNotes/blob/master/daily-notes/day27.md): The defense finishes examination in chief of Fredrick Supinski and the Crown conducts its crossexamination. The Defense rests its case. Submissions are put off until Thursday.
+**Next Court Date: March 29th at 10:30!**

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