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doの意味が全体的に逆になっています。 #118

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megascus opened this Issue Jun 20, 2018 — with docs.microsoft.com · 47 comments

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megascus commented Jun 20, 2018 — with docs.microsoft.com

doが"しないで"と翻訳されています。


ドキュメントの詳細

このセクションを編集しないでください。 docs.microsoft.com で必須です ➟ GitHub の問題のリンク。

@CeciAc CeciAc self-assigned this Jun 20, 2018

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CeciAc commented Jun 20, 2018

こんにちは、@ megascus,

フィードバックをお送りいただきありがとうございました。

コメントを確認中で、改めてご連絡させていただきます。

敬具
Microsoft DOCS International Team

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kiyokura commented Jun 21, 2018

I think these prefixes (DO/CONSIDER/AVOID/DO NOT) should not be translated in this case.
When translating it becomes more confusing, because there is no Japanese word suitable as a prefix.
For books published as Japanese translation of "Framework Design Guidelines: Conventions, Idioms, and Patterns for Reusable .NET Libraries, 2nd Edition", these prefixes were left English as it is.

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LisandroSu commented Jul 23, 2018

こんにちは、@megascus
 
言語に関するフィードバックをお寄せいただきありがとうございました。
 
お寄せいただいたフィードバックの内容を Microsoft の言語チームで検証いたしましたところ、残念ながら、マイクロソフトのスタイルガイドラインに従わない という理由で、承認基準に完全には適合していないという結果になりました。
 
記事の品質向上にご協力いただき誠にありがとうございました。引き続きお客様からの貴重なフィードバックをお待ちしています。

敬具
 
Microsoft DOCS International Team

@LisandroSu LisandroSu closed this Jul 23, 2018

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hkwi commented Jul 24, 2018

Hi, @LisandroSu, This issue is not about the style but about the meaning of "DO" and "DON'T". The doc translates both into the same word "しないで", while the meanings are definitely opposite.
In Japanese, "DON'T" is "しないで" and "DO" would be translated into "する".

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kekyo commented Jul 24, 2018

@hkwi off topic, add mention because maybe not notify to @LisandroSu

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FantomJAC commented Jul 24, 2018

This is totally ridiculous since its translations are absolutely wrong. Also +1 to @kiyokura opinion that it is not suitable to add such prefix within Japanese context.

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inductor commented Jul 24, 2018

Style guidelines do not define the quality of documentation.
Please do not take the guidelines as "the purpose". The purpose of translation is to make good documentation but not to follow the guidelines precisely...
What on earth do they mean...?

✓ を検討してくださいプロパティの型と同じ名前を提供します。
✓ はという 2 つのパラメーターを使用してsenderとeイベント ハンドラーにおいてです。

This is not Japanese 😢

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ufcpp commented Jul 24, 2018

The problem here is your mistranlation, not the translation guideline issue.

ja-jp
image

en-us
image

"しないで" means "DO NOT". You mistranslate "DO" to "DO NOT".

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ryuzoji commented Jul 24, 2018

It is strange Japanese translation (and it should be corrected in the future), but I must say "する/DO" and "しないで/DO NOT" does not have same meaning.
In Japanese, "しないで" means it SHOULD NOT to do(it means "X"). "する" means it SHOULD to do(it means "✓"). The meaning between "しないで" and "する" are contrary.
This is not a problem about document quality. Just a translation error.

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yumetodo commented Jul 24, 2018

Microsoft DOCS International Team decided that DO and DO NOT has equal mean...
It's really outrageous!

(Edit: It's obvious this 2 problem (watch below @yoshioterada 's post) is not a matter of style-guidline. )

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AtsushiYamashita commented Jul 24, 2018

Please add the original pages link in these translated pages.
That way, I think this problems will not make us unhappy.
That translation is so difficult for native Japanese people more then original english document.
Best regards!

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ryuzoji commented Jul 24, 2018

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cannorin commented Jul 24, 2018

Oh, you didn't know? :)

That's the MSDN dialect of Japanese.

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ufcpp commented Jul 24, 2018

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EzoeRyou commented Jul 24, 2018

DO fix the document which has a translation error.
しないで誤訳を含むドキュメントの修正

DO translate with MS style guideline conformance.
しないでMSスタイルガイドライン準拠の翻訳

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na4zagin3 commented Jul 24, 2018

If you want to locate “DO” and “DON'T” in the beginning of sentences in Japanese too, you can translate like “する:” and “しない:” or “正:” and “誤:”. Anyway, it's not possible to literarily translate those words into verb-final languages.

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n1215 commented Jul 24, 2018

why not use Google Translate?
google_translate

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yumetodo commented Jul 24, 2018

@n1215 due to the license

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metalefty commented Jul 24, 2018

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YusukeSuzuki commented Jul 24, 2018

翻訳者がGoogle翻訳を使うならライセンスの問題が発生するが読者が自分のブラウザで使う分にはBing翻訳よりもMicrosoft DOCS International Teamに頼るよりもずっと良い選択肢だろう。

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yoshioterada commented Jul 24, 2018

Dear Cecilia-san.

I'm employee of Microsoft Japan.
In fact, in this issue, there was two problem was wrote and discussed.

  1. is in fact, there was miss translation which mentioned by ufcpp-san.
    DO was translated the meaning as "DO NOT"(しないで)
    This is not the "style guide line issue" but mistranslation.

✓ DO name properties using a noun, noun phrase, or adjective.
✓ しないで名詞、名詞句、または形容詞を使用してプロパティの名前を付けます。


This is the point which mistranslation. (Line number 43)

  1. is Proposal from Kiyokura-san.

I think these prefixes (DO/CONSIDER/AVOID/DO NOT) should not be translated in this case.
When translating it becomes more confusing, because there is no Japanese word suitable as a prefix.
For books published as Japanese translation of "Framework Design Guidelines: Conventions, Idioms, and Patterns for Reusable .NET Libraries, 2nd Edition", these prefixes were left English as it is.


I agree with the Kiyokura-san's proposal. Because these word is the definition for the operation.
And it is very easy for us to understand these word. If it combine the definition word and the actual sentence, it is difficult for us to read the documents.
And you rejected this one.

For 1st one we must modify as mistranslation.
For 2nd one please consider again as one of the "style guide line"?

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chomado commented Jul 24, 2018

Hi @CeciAc and @LisandroSu ,
Thank you for your great effort on managing Japanese translation :D
I'm also a Microsoft employee, and I recommend reconsidering this issue; you closed this issue because you thought it didn't follow "style- guideline", however, many people here don't think it was a mere guidline matter (including me).
The details are above; Yoshio Terada and other dedicated community members mentioned about it. We appreciate it if you would check them.
If there's anything I can do for you, please let me know :D
Regards,
Madoka
ーー
(親切な人たちがたくさん言及してくれてるから、ぜひ今一度 再考をお願いします、と、メンション付きで、メールっぽく(丁寧に)書いてみました😊皆さまドキュメントにご指摘ありがとうございます!)
ーー
(今来て何が起こってるかよく分からない方は、このまとめ記事に色々書いてあります)

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runceel commented Jul 24, 2018

Hi @CeciAc, @LisandroSu,

I'm Microsoft Japan employee.
As many people said, I think that is miss translation."DO" is "します","DO NOT" is "しないで".

Could you re-open this issue?

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sakurai-youhei commented Jul 24, 2018

Hi there, I’m never Microsoft employee but I’m helping you to understand why Japanese is so interested in this linguistic quality issue on technical documentation.

The reason is very simple (at least for me); In a few words, the error looks too ugly. Furthermore, (I guess) it’d be even garbage for newbies who are trying to learn something new from literature on the page because it often decorates ideas oppositely.

And one more point you’d need to be aware of is that there is almost no way for Japanese to guess what’s written behind by English due to language distance and language barrier. Only one available option is usually moving to other 3rd party technical sources written in Japanese from Microsoft’s 1st party documentation. (Don’t you think this disadvantage is so unfortunate for technical people?)

To sum it up, everyone including me believes Microsoft should be one of the best companies so that we naturally think Microsoft is supposed to keep improving the translation quality in any means.

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megascus commented Jul 24, 2018

オフトピだし、あえて日本語で書きますが、日本語の説明文書のページに、変なところがあればここにって日本語で案内されたフォームから書いてみると、githubへ勝手に転記され(ここまでは良いが)そこから先はMS社員とMSMVPというマイクロソフトに近い人たちがさも当然のように英語で議論を始めるってのは外部者としては全く理解のできない文化です。。。
普段、Javaしか書いてなくてMSの文化に疎くてごめんね。

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ryokaji commented Jul 24, 2018

@gosali @LisandroSu
For the future contributions, I hope we could see a guideline when we feedback on the following form.

ms

Alternatively, if you aren't a fluent Japanese speaker or can't read, it would be good to suggest to us that we should report in English again.
As you can see, there are a lot of people understand English, someone would translate it if the author couldn't do.

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itukikikuti commented Jul 25, 2018

このissueのせいぞろい感が面白い
Google翻訳使えばいいっていうのは問題すり替えすぎじゃないですか?

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yumetodo commented Jul 25, 2018

@ryokaji It's a good idea. However, feedback form system is not a part of this repo, I think...

@itukikikuti クソリプは忘れるべし

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inductor commented Jul 25, 2018

Google翻訳の件は本人のTwitterに知ってるわそんなことみたいなこと書いてあったので真面目に取り合うだけ無駄なんじゃないかなって思います。

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ryokaji commented Jul 25, 2018

@yumetodo yeah, that is probably the root cause, but I think that is another topic, so I created #136 last night.
They told me that I should refer to this issue though :p

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yumetodo commented Jul 25, 2018

@ryokaji Hmm... Let’s wait a responce from Microsoft DOCS International Team.

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gosali commented Jul 25, 2018

Hello @megascus @yoshioterada @chomado @runceel and everyone involved in this issue,

Our linguistic team reviewed your linguist suggestions and accepted some of them in this Pull Request: https://github.com/dotnet/docs.ja-jp/pull/134/files.
We implemented your feedback and We will publish the updated articles on the Docs site to the following pages https://docs.microsoft.com/ja-jp/dotnet/standard/design-guidelines/names-of-type-members.

We truly appreciate your contribution to our articles and we encourage you to continue providing your valuable feedback.

Kind regards,
Microsoft DOCS International Team

@gosali gosali closed this Jul 25, 2018

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runceel commented Jul 25, 2018

@gosali
I really appreciate your team that you re-opened the issue and reviewing the PR.
Because I think that machine translation is not good yet, I think feedbacks like this is very important.

Thank you.

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yoshioterada commented Jul 26, 2018

@gosali Thank You so much for your support for this issue.
I'm very appreciate your help.

Best Regards.
Yoshio.

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yumetodo commented Jul 26, 2018

#136 was totally ignored even if that was moved to this issue.

I'm going to create new issue to propose that disable feedback form temporary to avoid to make victims (like @megascus ) again. However, I'm fighting with term examinations ( I'm a student of Tokyo University of Science) and have no time to propose. So, When @ryokaji or other people have another plan about the system, DO NOT mind me, DO your plan.


I think discussion or notification should not write on twitter. Why don't you write it on this issue?
This issue status(opened or closed) should not block your action to write here, isn't it?

ref:

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runceel commented Jul 26, 2018

@yumetodo Hi, I did’t notice the issue( #136 ) and the comment that related the issue on this issue.
@gosali Could you reply about the feedback? Or do you know a repository discuss this feedback fit than dotnet/docs.ja-jp?
I guess that this feedback is targeted to all categories that include dotnet.

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ryokaji commented Jul 26, 2018

We shouldn't refer to what we talked on twitter.

7474 added a commit to 7474/docs.ja-jp that referenced this issue Jul 26, 2018

7474 added a commit to 7474/docs.ja-jp that referenced this issue Jul 26, 2018

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gosali commented Jul 26, 2018

Hello @runceel, @yumetodo

For specific linguistic changes we recommend to submit Pull Request by clicking on the Edit button at the top of the website.
You can there modify the website content and then our linguistic team will review the changes and whether accept or reject them.

Kind regards,
Microsoft DOCS International Team

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runceel commented Jul 26, 2018

@gosali
Thank you for your recomendation. and thank you for replying on the #136.

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yumetodo commented Jul 26, 2018

For specific linguistic changes

I'm not talking about specific linguistic.

is what I wanted to say, and the notice, to propose disabling feedback form temporary, is for temporary measures while discussing how to improve the feedback form.

(Edit: I will move to MicrosoftDocs/feedback#554 )

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ryokaji commented Jul 26, 2018

@yumetodo MicrosoftDocs/feedback#554 (comment) was created, and it seems much suitable for discussing about #136 .
Probably your proposal should be also proposed there.

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sasanquaneuf commented Jul 26, 2018

@gosali Hi, I saw Japanese version of the page:
https://docs.microsoft.com/ja-jp/dotnet/standard/design-guidelines/names-of-type-members
and it looks like still wrong. (fig.1)
So I clicked the pencil icon at the top of the page, and I was navigated to github. Then, the content looks correctly. (fig.2)
I think some thing is wrong, isn't it?
I worry that the Edit button affects only github.

fig.1
2018-07-27 1 04 57

fig.2
2018-07-27 1 05 46

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nokura commented Jul 27, 2018

@megascus
このたびは機械翻訳ページの誤訳につきまして有意義なフィードバックをいただいきましてありがとうございます。当初、Microsoftサイドにてフィードバック内容に誤解があったため、不適切な対処をとってしまいましたことを心よりお詫び申し上げます。ご指摘の点に関しましては、以下のように対応いたします。
1. 当該ページのDO/DO NOT/CONSIDER を英語に戻します。
2. 同様の表記 (DO/DO NOT/CONSIDER/AVOID) が https://docs.microsoft.com/ja-jp/dotnet/standard/design-guidelines/ の他のトピックに出現した場合は、同じく英語に戻します。
3. 当該ページを機械翻訳から人間翻訳にアップグレードしたものを公開します。

お客様からのフィードバック登録インターフェイスと対応の不備につきましては現在改良を進めております。今後ともご愛顧いただけますようよろしくお願い申し上げます。
敬具
Microsoft DOCS International Team

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megascus commented Jul 27, 2018

LGTM!

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sasanquaneuf commented Jul 27, 2018

@nokura @gosali
I confirmed the newest pages.

  • The page of docs is fixed as @nokura said.
  • The page of github is not as same as docs.

I think that there are some difference between docs and github.
So, the Edit button of docs may not work good.

regards,

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gosali commented Jul 27, 2018

Hello @sasanquaneuf ,

That is because the page has not been re-published yet. But the content in GitHub is fixed.
Updates in Live Web Site would be available soon.

Thank you a lot for your feedback.
Microsoft DOCS International Team

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