New issue

Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.

By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.

Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account

cached augmented diffs differ from on-demand adiffs #346

Open
tyrasd opened this Issue Dec 9, 2016 · 26 comments

Comments

Projects
None yet
8 participants
@tyrasd
Contributor

tyrasd commented Dec 9, 2016

Yesterday I was downloading some "live" augmented diffs (that are now served from a cache, see #342), but got one empty file (2229363.osc). After downloading the same (now, non cached) adiff from http://overpass-api.de/api/augmented_diff?id=2229363, I do actually get some data. Looking around the downloaded files a bit more and comparing them to their currently generated counterparts, I see that most (all?) of them actually don't match up with each other (the current adiffs containing more data then the disk-cached adiffs).

Here's an example: https://gist.github.com/tyrasd/fe213e1d17fc95c3a43b669b1ef154e1

@tyrasd tyrasd changed the title from cached augmented diffs differ from on-demand ones to cached augmented diffs differ from on-demand adiffs Dec 9, 2016

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Dec 9, 2016

Contributor

Can you try a cross check with http://dev.overpass-api.de/api_mmd/augmented_diff_status - it doesn't have caching enabled yet, i.e. it might be easier for comparison. Also debug=true still works: http://dev.overpass-api.de/api_mmd/augmented_diff?debug=true&id=2230741

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Dec 9, 2016

Can you try a cross check with http://dev.overpass-api.de/api_mmd/augmented_diff_status - it doesn't have caching enabled yet, i.e. it might be easier for comparison. Also debug=true still works: http://dev.overpass-api.de/api_mmd/augmented_diff?debug=true&id=2230741

@tyrasd

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tyrasd

tyrasd Dec 9, 2016

Contributor

yeah, I just tried it with adiff 2230746 (which corresponds to the time between 2016-12-09T10:01:00Z and 2016-12-09T10:02:00Z). Here's the results in chronological order:

Contributor

tyrasd commented Dec 9, 2016

yeah, I just tried it with adiff 2230746 (which corresponds to the time between 2016-12-09T10:01:00Z and 2016-12-09T10:02:00Z). Here's the results in chronological order:

@tyrasd

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tyrasd

tyrasd Dec 9, 2016

Contributor

Looking at the actual (OSM) minutely-diffs, it seems like not all of the updates for each minute is contained in the same diff: 220430 contains data until 2016-12-09T10:02:02Z, but the following two minutely diffs (220431 and 220432) contain updates for the 2016-12-09T10:01 minute as well. 😕

Is that to be expected? (e.g. Does this happen with slowly uploading changesets maybe??) //cc @tomhughes

How could Overpass circumvent this issue? Waiting a few minutes before actually publishing an augmented diff maybe? (But then, how long would such a buffer period have to be?)

Contributor

tyrasd commented Dec 9, 2016

Looking at the actual (OSM) minutely-diffs, it seems like not all of the updates for each minute is contained in the same diff: 220430 contains data until 2016-12-09T10:02:02Z, but the following two minutely diffs (220431 and 220432) contain updates for the 2016-12-09T10:01 minute as well. 😕

Is that to be expected? (e.g. Does this happen with slowly uploading changesets maybe??) //cc @tomhughes

How could Overpass circumvent this issue? Waiting a few minutes before actually publishing an augmented diff maybe? (But then, how long would such a buffer period have to be?)

@tomhughes

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tomhughes

tomhughes Dec 9, 2016

You can't assume time ordering of the diffs, because changes only appear in a diff once the relevant database transaction has committed so a long transaction may start before a short one but finish after it meaning the changes from the short one appear in an earlier diff.

tomhughes commented Dec 9, 2016

You can't assume time ordering of the diffs, because changes only appear in a diff once the relevant database transaction has committed so a long transaction may start before a short one but finish after it meaning the changes from the short one appear in an earlier diff.

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Dec 9, 2016

Contributor

@tomhughes : I'm wondering if a transaction's creation timestamp is set right when the transaction starts, rather than immediately before the commit? Is there maybe some rule of thumb how long such a transaction could take in the worst case?

I assume that a transaction starts with "POST /api/0.6/changeset/#id/upload" and the commit is only triggered right after the call. If that's the case a very slow upload might indeed introduce quite some delay.

Not sure what the best way to deal with the issue would be.

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Dec 9, 2016

@tomhughes : I'm wondering if a transaction's creation timestamp is set right when the transaction starts, rather than immediately before the commit? Is there maybe some rule of thumb how long such a transaction could take in the worst case?

I assume that a transaction starts with "POST /api/0.6/changeset/#id/upload" and the commit is only triggered right after the call. If that's the case a very slow upload might indeed introduce quite some delay.

Not sure what the best way to deal with the issue would be.

@tomhughes

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tomhughes

tomhughes Dec 9, 2016

You're confusing database transactions and OSM changesets. They are not the same thing.

Creating a changeset is a transaction. Uploading a single object to it is a transaction. Uploading a diff to it is another transaction. Closing it (if done explicitly) is yet another transaction.

The only thing you need to know is that you can't assume changes in the diffs will appear to be time ordered because they won't be.

I think most timestamps are assigned by ruby, not by the database, so for changeset creation will probably actually be before the transaction is even opened, but will only be visible in the diffs once the transaction closes. Same for objects in a diff - each one will be assigned as it is read by rails I think, but check the source if you want to be sure.

tomhughes commented Dec 9, 2016

You're confusing database transactions and OSM changesets. They are not the same thing.

Creating a changeset is a transaction. Uploading a single object to it is a transaction. Uploading a diff to it is another transaction. Closing it (if done explicitly) is yet another transaction.

The only thing you need to know is that you can't assume changes in the diffs will appear to be time ordered because they won't be.

I think most timestamps are assigned by ruby, not by the database, so for changeset creation will probably actually be before the transaction is even opened, but will only be visible in the diffs once the transaction closes. Same for objects in a diff - each one will be assigned as it is read by rails I think, but check the source if you want to be sure.

@tyrasd

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tyrasd

tyrasd Dec 9, 2016

Contributor

I think most timestamps are assigned by ruby, not by the database

Here @lonvia mentioned that object timestamps should be set by the db

Contributor

tyrasd commented Dec 9, 2016

I think most timestamps are assigned by ruby, not by the database

Here @lonvia mentioned that object timestamps should be set by the db

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Dec 9, 2016

Contributor

You're confusing database transactions and OSM changesets.

Well, I thought I was talking about HTTP calls being atomic and representing one transaction each. So, yes, there may be multiple db transactions associated to a single OSM changeset.

I think the main issue here is, that we have quite some semantic differences:

  • a diff file represents a 'transport' container of whatever data is ready to be replicated at a given point in time. In case a transaction is still ongoing, that data is simply included in a later diff file. In particular, there's no guarantee that every object with a certain create/modification/deletion timestamp eventually ends up in a diff file, which is calculated based on the object's timestamp! I believe that was one of the underlying assumptions, which turns out to be incorrect.
  • An augmented diff is supposed to include all objects with create/change/deletion timestamp within a certain 1 minute timeframe. As soon as such an augmented diff is published, it has - by definition - to include all objects, as it matches exactly a 1 minute timeframe, based on the object timestamp. Delivering any objects in a later file, as with minutely diffs, does not match that concept.

Indeed a very tricky question...

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Dec 9, 2016

You're confusing database transactions and OSM changesets.

Well, I thought I was talking about HTTP calls being atomic and representing one transaction each. So, yes, there may be multiple db transactions associated to a single OSM changeset.

I think the main issue here is, that we have quite some semantic differences:

  • a diff file represents a 'transport' container of whatever data is ready to be replicated at a given point in time. In case a transaction is still ongoing, that data is simply included in a later diff file. In particular, there's no guarantee that every object with a certain create/modification/deletion timestamp eventually ends up in a diff file, which is calculated based on the object's timestamp! I believe that was one of the underlying assumptions, which turns out to be incorrect.
  • An augmented diff is supposed to include all objects with create/change/deletion timestamp within a certain 1 minute timeframe. As soon as such an augmented diff is published, it has - by definition - to include all objects, as it matches exactly a 1 minute timeframe, based on the object timestamp. Delivering any objects in a later file, as with minutely diffs, does not match that concept.

Indeed a very tricky question...

@tyrasd

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tyrasd

tyrasd Dec 9, 2016

Contributor

Indeed very tricky question...

The only real solution I can currently think of would be for Overpass to store an additional meta field for each object version, namely the minutely diff number (or timestamp) in which it was published. Then, the augmented diff call can produce output in 1:1 correspondence to OSM's minutely diffs, i.e. one augmented diff for each OSM minutely diff including the same objects. That would be incompatible to Overpass' current augmented diff semantics, though.

@mmd-osm in #342 you mentioned that several clients are [currently requesting] augmented diffs. Do you know which applications those are? How did they not notice that a significant portion of the data is missing in the augmented diffs (if consumed immediately)?

Contributor

tyrasd commented Dec 9, 2016

Indeed very tricky question...

The only real solution I can currently think of would be for Overpass to store an additional meta field for each object version, namely the minutely diff number (or timestamp) in which it was published. Then, the augmented diff call can produce output in 1:1 correspondence to OSM's minutely diffs, i.e. one augmented diff for each OSM minutely diff including the same objects. That would be incompatible to Overpass' current augmented diff semantics, though.

@mmd-osm in #342 you mentioned that several clients are [currently requesting] augmented diffs. Do you know which applications those are? How did they not notice that a significant portion of the data is missing in the augmented diffs (if consumed immediately)?

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Dec 10, 2016

Contributor

@tyrasd : Regarding the clients: there are some AWS clients without User Agent, and @pa5cal / @geonick are experimenting with it afaik. So I'm not sure which applications are really using it atm.

If possible, changing the meta data for this use case should probably be avoided. Maybe we have some alternative:

Each minutely diff comes with a state.txt file, which according to osmosis has the following contents.

Field Description
txnMax The maximum transaction id in the database.
txnMaxQueried The maximum transaction id currently replicated from the database.
txnActive The currently active transaction ids.
txnReady The previously active transaction ids that can now be queried.
timestamp The maximum timestamp of data currently read from the database.
sequenceNumber The replication sequence number.

Important point here is, that timestamp just represents the maximum timestamp of the data. It does not indicate, that all data up to and including this timestamp are included in that particular minutely diff.

I was hoping that we could leverage the information in txnActive and track, how long transactions are running. Assumption would be:

  • If txnActive is empty, no further data is to be expected for timeframe up to timestamp
  • If txnActive is not empty in minutely diff 0.state.txt, we need to track those transaction numbers in subsequent state files (1.state.txt, 2.state.txt, ...) , and only if all of the activate transaction numbers are no longer listed there, all data according to the timestamp in 0.state.txt should be complete now.

@tomhughes : I didn't find much documentation on the state.txt semantics yet. Does such a txnActive based approach make some sense to you?

BTW: I found the following description quite helpful ( -> essential reading): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmosis/Replication#Time-aligned_versus_Transaction-aligned
After all, it looks like Augmented diff try to bridge from Transaction-aligned to Time-aligned
diffs with all its pain points.

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Dec 10, 2016

@tyrasd : Regarding the clients: there are some AWS clients without User Agent, and @pa5cal / @geonick are experimenting with it afaik. So I'm not sure which applications are really using it atm.

If possible, changing the meta data for this use case should probably be avoided. Maybe we have some alternative:

Each minutely diff comes with a state.txt file, which according to osmosis has the following contents.

Field Description
txnMax The maximum transaction id in the database.
txnMaxQueried The maximum transaction id currently replicated from the database.
txnActive The currently active transaction ids.
txnReady The previously active transaction ids that can now be queried.
timestamp The maximum timestamp of data currently read from the database.
sequenceNumber The replication sequence number.

Important point here is, that timestamp just represents the maximum timestamp of the data. It does not indicate, that all data up to and including this timestamp are included in that particular minutely diff.

I was hoping that we could leverage the information in txnActive and track, how long transactions are running. Assumption would be:

  • If txnActive is empty, no further data is to be expected for timeframe up to timestamp
  • If txnActive is not empty in minutely diff 0.state.txt, we need to track those transaction numbers in subsequent state files (1.state.txt, 2.state.txt, ...) , and only if all of the activate transaction numbers are no longer listed there, all data according to the timestamp in 0.state.txt should be complete now.

@tomhughes : I didn't find much documentation on the state.txt semantics yet. Does such a txnActive based approach make some sense to you?

BTW: I found the following description quite helpful ( -> essential reading): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmosis/Replication#Time-aligned_versus_Transaction-aligned
After all, it looks like Augmented diff try to bridge from Transaction-aligned to Time-aligned
diffs with all its pain points.

@tyrasd

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tyrasd

tyrasd Dec 10, 2016

Contributor

txnActive is not empty […]

Oh, cool. Nice idea! I didn't know about those fields.

Contributor

tyrasd commented Dec 10, 2016

txnActive is not empty […]

Oh, cool. Nice idea! I didn't know about those fields.

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Dec 10, 2016

Contributor

Based on all minutely diff state files, I tried to calculate a distribution for the in-flight transaction length according to txnActiveList: distribution.txt.

  • First column indicates the frequency,
  • the second column the transaction length
    (more precisely: the number of minutely diff state files that particular transaction number appeared in).

@brettch mentioned some timeframe of up to 24 hours on the osmosis wiki page, and I was a bit worried that this might seriously impact the delay we will face with augmented diffs.

The good news is that a large amount of transactions that are listed under txnActiveList will be be active for few minutes only.

  • 1 minute : 94%
  • <= 10 minutes: 99.82%
  • <= 60 minutes: 99.98%

Nevertheless, there are some extreme outliers, taking up to 8 days (!), like transaction number 260199054 below. Not sure that happened there... EDIT: Dec 2017: other activities like VACUUM and BACKUP also show up in this list, though they are not relevant.

Transaction length in minutes / transaction number:

  11516 260199054
  11480 260215678
  11456 260231443
  11250 260410000
  11239 260414562
   9712 262515052
   6907 228809845
   6860 228846931
   6850 228854287
   6765 228898323
   6633 228987460
   6237 229189047
   6208 229197102
[...] -> see below for complete list

Downside of this approach - it only works with minutely diffs. Neither hourly nor daily diffs provide the respective list of active transactions txnActiveList, and I have no idea, how in-flight transactions are handled here or how we're able to find out, when all data up to a given timestamp is eventually available!

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Dec 10, 2016

Based on all minutely diff state files, I tried to calculate a distribution for the in-flight transaction length according to txnActiveList: distribution.txt.

  • First column indicates the frequency,
  • the second column the transaction length
    (more precisely: the number of minutely diff state files that particular transaction number appeared in).

@brettch mentioned some timeframe of up to 24 hours on the osmosis wiki page, and I was a bit worried that this might seriously impact the delay we will face with augmented diffs.

The good news is that a large amount of transactions that are listed under txnActiveList will be be active for few minutes only.

  • 1 minute : 94%
  • <= 10 minutes: 99.82%
  • <= 60 minutes: 99.98%

Nevertheless, there are some extreme outliers, taking up to 8 days (!), like transaction number 260199054 below. Not sure that happened there... EDIT: Dec 2017: other activities like VACUUM and BACKUP also show up in this list, though they are not relevant.

Transaction length in minutes / transaction number:

  11516 260199054
  11480 260215678
  11456 260231443
  11250 260410000
  11239 260414562
   9712 262515052
   6907 228809845
   6860 228846931
   6850 228854287
   6765 228898323
   6633 228987460
   6237 229189047
   6208 229197102
[...] -> see below for complete list

Downside of this approach - it only works with minutely diffs. Neither hourly nor daily diffs provide the respective list of active transactions txnActiveList, and I have no idea, how in-flight transactions are handled here or how we're able to find out, when all data up to a given timestamp is eventually available!

@tyrasd

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tyrasd

tyrasd Dec 11, 2016

Contributor

Transaction length in minutes / transaction number:

Looking at those ids, it seems like they are all from the late 2012 period (somewhat shortly after the redaction period). These also seems to have happened in clumps: e.g. this is the last state file that http://planet.osm.org/replication/minute/000/106/720.state.txt contains many of those long-"running" transactions with the 260* ids. The following minutely diff file (http://planet.osm.org/replication/minute/000/106/721.osc.gz) doesn't seem to contain any suspicious (e.g. >> 1 minute old) data at first glance.

Downside of this approach - it only works with minutely diffs.

AFAIK, hourly/dialy diffs are just concatenated minutely diffs. So, the open transactions for a hourly diff would be the same as for the last minutely diff it was made from.

Contributor

tyrasd commented Dec 11, 2016

Transaction length in minutes / transaction number:

Looking at those ids, it seems like they are all from the late 2012 period (somewhat shortly after the redaction period). These also seems to have happened in clumps: e.g. this is the last state file that http://planet.osm.org/replication/minute/000/106/720.state.txt contains many of those long-"running" transactions with the 260* ids. The following minutely diff file (http://planet.osm.org/replication/minute/000/106/721.osc.gz) doesn't seem to contain any suspicious (e.g. >> 1 minute old) data at first glance.

Downside of this approach - it only works with minutely diffs.

AFAIK, hourly/dialy diffs are just concatenated minutely diffs. So, the open transactions for a hourly diff would be the same as for the last minutely diff it was made from.

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Dec 11, 2016

Contributor

Looking at those ids, it seems like they are all from the late 2012 period

Right, I should have mentioned that they were the just the most long-running ones. As the list is quite lengthy, I put it up on the dev server now: http://dev.overpass-api.de/tmp/psv/transactions.txt.gz -
btw: the first row in that file shows the number of minutely diff files without any active transactions.

Another period with long running transactions was in Feb 2016, where we had the minutely replication issue around 001/788/263.osc.gz. Transaction 774776540 was active back then for about 4 days.

#Tue Feb 16 22:18:05 UTC 2016
sequenceNumber=1794968
txnMaxQueried=774777279
txnReadyList=
timestamp=2016-02-16T22\:18\:03Z
txnMax=774777279
txnActiveList=774776540,774777277

AFAIK, hourly/dialy diffs are just concatenated minutely diffs. So, the open transactions for a hourly diff would be the same as for the last minutely diff it was made from.

The issue is that I don't know exactly how that process works. The wiki states that those files are being generated a few minutes after the hour and they're [s]aggregating[/s]concatenating minutely diffs.

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Dec 11, 2016

Looking at those ids, it seems like they are all from the late 2012 period

Right, I should have mentioned that they were the just the most long-running ones. As the list is quite lengthy, I put it up on the dev server now: http://dev.overpass-api.de/tmp/psv/transactions.txt.gz -
btw: the first row in that file shows the number of minutely diff files without any active transactions.

Another period with long running transactions was in Feb 2016, where we had the minutely replication issue around 001/788/263.osc.gz. Transaction 774776540 was active back then for about 4 days.

#Tue Feb 16 22:18:05 UTC 2016
sequenceNumber=1794968
txnMaxQueried=774777279
txnReadyList=
timestamp=2016-02-16T22\:18\:03Z
txnMax=774777279
txnActiveList=774776540,774777277

AFAIK, hourly/dialy diffs are just concatenated minutely diffs. So, the open transactions for a hourly diff would be the same as for the last minutely diff it was made from.

The issue is that I don't know exactly how that process works. The wiki states that those files are being generated a few minutes after the hour and they're [s]aggregating[/s]concatenating minutely diffs.

@drolbr drolbr added the bug label Dec 14, 2016

@drolbr

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@drolbr

drolbr Dec 14, 2016

Owner

Let's collect the valid and invalid assumptions:

The only thing you need to know is that you can't assume changes in the diffs will appear to be time ordered because they won't be.

This is a huge problem because this assumption is deeply built into Overpass API. In particular that the timestamp of the diff means that all changes up to that date are included.

AFAIK, hourly/dialy diffs are just concatenated minutely diffs. So, the open transactions for a hourly diff would be the same as for the last minutely diff it was made from.

I don't think so. Some time ago the main API may have dropped intermediate versions of objects from hourly or daily diffs. Otherwise, there would not be no gain of hourly and daily diffs over a tar file of minute diffs.

To sum things up:

A short term solution could be to add a fixed some-minute delay. The right amount of minutes to lose very few changes should be figured out from mmds statistics.

@tomhughes Is the txnActiveList field (presence and precise semantics) part of the long term interface? I suppose not. Because that would take away useful degrees of freedom from the main DB server.

As I assume that txnActiveList is not part of the long term interface, I'm reluctant to build dependencies to that. However, I'm grateful for the statistics to understand what is happening right now.

I prefer as a long time solution to revise the format of the changelog file in the Overpass API database and add a field for the file from which the change has come. That way we could augment whatever change file comes in.

Owner

drolbr commented Dec 14, 2016

Let's collect the valid and invalid assumptions:

The only thing you need to know is that you can't assume changes in the diffs will appear to be time ordered because they won't be.

This is a huge problem because this assumption is deeply built into Overpass API. In particular that the timestamp of the diff means that all changes up to that date are included.

AFAIK, hourly/dialy diffs are just concatenated minutely diffs. So, the open transactions for a hourly diff would be the same as for the last minutely diff it was made from.

I don't think so. Some time ago the main API may have dropped intermediate versions of objects from hourly or daily diffs. Otherwise, there would not be no gain of hourly and daily diffs over a tar file of minute diffs.

To sum things up:

A short term solution could be to add a fixed some-minute delay. The right amount of minutes to lose very few changes should be figured out from mmds statistics.

@tomhughes Is the txnActiveList field (presence and precise semantics) part of the long term interface? I suppose not. Because that would take away useful degrees of freedom from the main DB server.

As I assume that txnActiveList is not part of the long term interface, I'm reluctant to build dependencies to that. However, I'm grateful for the statistics to understand what is happening right now.

I prefer as a long time solution to revise the format of the changelog file in the Overpass API database and add a field for the file from which the change has come. That way we could augment whatever change file comes in.

@tyrasd

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tyrasd

tyrasd Dec 14, 2016

Contributor

AFAIK, hourly/dialy diffs are just concatenated minutely diffs. So, the open transactions for a hourly diff would be the same as for the last minutely diff it was made from.

I don't think so. Some time ago the main API may have dropped intermediate versions of objects from hourly or daily diffs. Otherwise, there would not be no gain of hourly and daily diffs over a tar file of minute diffs.

Is that really so?? According to the counterexample mentioned recently on @dev, daily diffs do still contain intermediate versions of objects.

Contributor

tyrasd commented Dec 14, 2016

AFAIK, hourly/dialy diffs are just concatenated minutely diffs. So, the open transactions for a hourly diff would be the same as for the last minutely diff it was made from.

I don't think so. Some time ago the main API may have dropped intermediate versions of objects from hourly or daily diffs. Otherwise, there would not be no gain of hourly and daily diffs over a tar file of minute diffs.

Is that really so?? According to the counterexample mentioned recently on @dev, daily diffs do still contain intermediate versions of objects.

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Dec 14, 2016

Contributor

@tyrasd : that's right, I used the term "aggregated" above (which might be misleading), but it's really only some kind of concatenation. All intermediate versions are still present in hourly and daily diffs.

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Dec 14, 2016

@tyrasd : that's right, I used the term "aggregated" above (which might be misleading), but it's really only some kind of concatenation. All intermediate versions are still present in hourly and daily diffs.

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Dec 17, 2016

Contributor

@tomhughes Is the txnActiveList field (presence and precise semantics) part of the long term interface? I suppose not. Because that would take away useful degrees of freedom from the main DB server.

As I assume that txnActiveList is not part of the long term interface, I'm reluctant to build dependencies to that. However, I'm grateful for the statistics to understand what is happening right now.

@brettch: please correct me if I'm wrong. Even the replication logic in osmosis is pretty much tight to the Postgresql transaction snapshot feature, see https://github.com/openstreetmap/osmosis/blob/master/osmosis-apidb/src/main/java/org/openstreetmap/osmosis/apidb/v0_6/impl/TransactionDao.java#L42 and https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/functions-info.html#FUNCTIONS-TXID-SNAPSHOT.

In particular, the list of currently active transactions in state.txt comes directly from Postgresql's txid_current_snapshot() -> xip_list (=Active txids at the time of the snapshot.).

This has been this way for several years now. Changing this process would have a large impact on osmosis as well.

Note: also check discussion on openstreetmap/operations#154

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Dec 17, 2016

@tomhughes Is the txnActiveList field (presence and precise semantics) part of the long term interface? I suppose not. Because that would take away useful degrees of freedom from the main DB server.

As I assume that txnActiveList is not part of the long term interface, I'm reluctant to build dependencies to that. However, I'm grateful for the statistics to understand what is happening right now.

@brettch: please correct me if I'm wrong. Even the replication logic in osmosis is pretty much tight to the Postgresql transaction snapshot feature, see https://github.com/openstreetmap/osmosis/blob/master/osmosis-apidb/src/main/java/org/openstreetmap/osmosis/apidb/v0_6/impl/TransactionDao.java#L42 and https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/functions-info.html#FUNCTIONS-TXID-SNAPSHOT.

In particular, the list of currently active transactions in state.txt comes directly from Postgresql's txid_current_snapshot() -> xip_list (=Active txids at the time of the snapshot.).

This has been this way for several years now. Changing this process would have a large impact on osmosis as well.

Note: also check discussion on openstreetmap/operations#154

@ltog

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@ltog

ltog Jan 4, 2017

Is the assumption correct, that there is no missing/doubled data when one consumes only cached adiffs, i.e. when you consume adiffs within 60 minutes after their existence was announced by api/augmented_diff_status?

(The 60 minutes stem from

)

ltog commented Jan 4, 2017

Is the assumption correct, that there is no missing/doubled data when one consumes only cached adiffs, i.e. when you consume adiffs within 60 minutes after their existence was announced by api/augmented_diff_status?

(The 60 minutes stem from

)

@brettch

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@brettch

brettch Jan 16, 2017

@mmd-osm, all your comments about how transaction processing works look right to me, but here is some additional context in case it's useful. To be honest, it's been many years since I wrote most of this and my memory is getting a bit hazy ;-)

Osmosis replication processing ignores dates entirely and just uses the txid_current_snapshot() PostgreSQL function to obtain a snapshot of current database transaction state.

The minute diffs are the only ones that hit the DB directly. The hour and day diffs just roll up the minute diffs into batches. All diffs are a complete history of all changes between transaction points in the database and may contain multiple changes for a single entity. In all cases they are sorted by nodes, ways, then relations, and in increasing id/version order (so hour and day diffs are NOT a simple concatenation of minute and hour diffs, they are re-sorted). Hour and day diffs don't serve any purpose other than reducing the overhead of catching up over a long time interval.

None of the diffs are exactly time aligned, they are transaction snapshot aligned. Minute diffs are simple scheduled to run once per minute and read all data that has landed since the last invocation. If the planet server goes down for a while they'll end up quite large and contain more than a minute of data. I think there's a maximum transaction limit per file in there somewhere to keep a lid on things. Hour diffs feed off them and put approximately 1 hour of diffs into a file, but each minute file is placed entirely into a single hour file and never split across two files.

Some consequences of all this. The data is aligned based on the timestamp of when the transaction was committed, not when the data was inserted. Long running transactions may result in their data appearing in a later replication file than the entity timestamps would indicate.

Any tool that makes assumptions about the maximum duration of a transaction is doomed to occasional data loss. Early Osmosis replication used timestamps. It worked well in the early MySQL days, but was a disaster once the PostgreSQL DB and changesets were introduced. Every time I tried increasing the "lag interval" to try to ensure all transactions had landed somebody invented a longer running transaction.

The content of the state files is not really meant for client tool consumption, only for Osmosis itself. There wasn't a lot of thought into defining a public API. You can use them as a source of diagnostic information (e.g. timestamp) but that's about it. txnActiveList in particular is only useful for a tool hitting the database directly (i.e. Osmosis creating the minute files). I probably should have put it elsewhere but it was simpler to keep it all in one place.

brettch commented Jan 16, 2017

@mmd-osm, all your comments about how transaction processing works look right to me, but here is some additional context in case it's useful. To be honest, it's been many years since I wrote most of this and my memory is getting a bit hazy ;-)

Osmosis replication processing ignores dates entirely and just uses the txid_current_snapshot() PostgreSQL function to obtain a snapshot of current database transaction state.

The minute diffs are the only ones that hit the DB directly. The hour and day diffs just roll up the minute diffs into batches. All diffs are a complete history of all changes between transaction points in the database and may contain multiple changes for a single entity. In all cases they are sorted by nodes, ways, then relations, and in increasing id/version order (so hour and day diffs are NOT a simple concatenation of minute and hour diffs, they are re-sorted). Hour and day diffs don't serve any purpose other than reducing the overhead of catching up over a long time interval.

None of the diffs are exactly time aligned, they are transaction snapshot aligned. Minute diffs are simple scheduled to run once per minute and read all data that has landed since the last invocation. If the planet server goes down for a while they'll end up quite large and contain more than a minute of data. I think there's a maximum transaction limit per file in there somewhere to keep a lid on things. Hour diffs feed off them and put approximately 1 hour of diffs into a file, but each minute file is placed entirely into a single hour file and never split across two files.

Some consequences of all this. The data is aligned based on the timestamp of when the transaction was committed, not when the data was inserted. Long running transactions may result in their data appearing in a later replication file than the entity timestamps would indicate.

Any tool that makes assumptions about the maximum duration of a transaction is doomed to occasional data loss. Early Osmosis replication used timestamps. It worked well in the early MySQL days, but was a disaster once the PostgreSQL DB and changesets were introduced. Every time I tried increasing the "lag interval" to try to ensure all transactions had landed somebody invented a longer running transaction.

The content of the state files is not really meant for client tool consumption, only for Osmosis itself. There wasn't a lot of thought into defining a public API. You can use them as a source of diagnostic information (e.g. timestamp) but that's about it. txnActiveList in particular is only useful for a tool hitting the database directly (i.e. Osmosis creating the minute files). I probably should have put it elsewhere but it was simpler to keep it all in one place.

@paulmach

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@paulmach

paulmach Feb 18, 2017

Hi, I have been working though this problem for a while now as part of a side project to create accurate diffs and before/after states. The problem being, as described above, the timestamp of a object doesn't necessarily correspond to when it appeared in the database and the minutely diffs. A lot of the minutely diffs have data from before the minute (usually a handful of seconds only) and even after since the generation doesn't seems to start until 2-3ish seconds after the minute.

The solution I've come up with is to compute a "committed at time" for each element. This is the estimated time the element's upload transaction completed. The "augmented diff" becomes the planet minutely diff plus stuff that was committed before anything in that diff. So it's keyed off the minutely diff id, and not absolute time.

I compute the "committed at time" using the minutely diffs. An object's committed at time is the max timestamps for objects with matching changeset ids in the minutely diff. I think this works since the minutely diffs are a set of finished transaction data. It's not exactly correct since there could be two uploads for a given changeset in a given minute, but the short answer is I think it'll still work. :) For elements added before minutely diffs started I do some estimates but it can't be completely correct.

I've been working on this as part of my own stack. I noticed the issues with overpass and didn't want to propose such a big change because I feel like most of the use cases for overpass wouldn't justify it.

There are many uses for being able to compute a true before/after state for any time and any area that I'm interested in exploring, but unfortunately I don't have anything to demo quite yet.

paulmach commented Feb 18, 2017

Hi, I have been working though this problem for a while now as part of a side project to create accurate diffs and before/after states. The problem being, as described above, the timestamp of a object doesn't necessarily correspond to when it appeared in the database and the minutely diffs. A lot of the minutely diffs have data from before the minute (usually a handful of seconds only) and even after since the generation doesn't seems to start until 2-3ish seconds after the minute.

The solution I've come up with is to compute a "committed at time" for each element. This is the estimated time the element's upload transaction completed. The "augmented diff" becomes the planet minutely diff plus stuff that was committed before anything in that diff. So it's keyed off the minutely diff id, and not absolute time.

I compute the "committed at time" using the minutely diffs. An object's committed at time is the max timestamps for objects with matching changeset ids in the minutely diff. I think this works since the minutely diffs are a set of finished transaction data. It's not exactly correct since there could be two uploads for a given changeset in a given minute, but the short answer is I think it'll still work. :) For elements added before minutely diffs started I do some estimates but it can't be completely correct.

I've been working on this as part of my own stack. I noticed the issues with overpass and didn't want to propose such a big change because I feel like most of the use cases for overpass wouldn't justify it.

There are many uses for being able to compute a true before/after state for any time and any area that I'm interested in exploring, but unfortunately I don't have anything to demo quite yet.

@tyrasd

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@tyrasd

tyrasd Apr 12, 2017

Contributor

In http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/geohacker/diary/40846, it sounds like @geohacker found a workaround for this issue:

A changeset being closed doesn't mean that all features that changed have been committed to the OSM database, and appear in the minutely diff right after. Some features may take longer to commit to the database, we handle these by updating the augmented diff from S3, and then recreating the changeset JSON.

@geohacker: How do you do this exactly?

Contributor

tyrasd commented Apr 12, 2017

In http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/geohacker/diary/40846, it sounds like @geohacker found a workaround for this issue:

A changeset being closed doesn't mean that all features that changed have been committed to the OSM database, and appear in the minutely diff right after. Some features may take longer to commit to the database, we handle these by updating the augmented diff from S3, and then recreating the changeset JSON.

@geohacker: How do you do this exactly?

@geohacker

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@geohacker

geohacker Apr 12, 2017

@tyrasd I was going to post here, this is a thorough hack but works alright.

  • I hooked a script on our Overpass instance to write minutely augmented diffs to an S3 location.
  • Then, we listen to the OSM minutely replication, prepare a list of all the feature timestamps that appear.
  • If the required state is the current minute, download adiff from S3.
  • If the state required isn't in Overpass we put the task back in a queue.
  • If an old minutely adiff state is needed, request this via the Overpass API, and update adiff on S3 and update the changeset with new features.

This relies entirely on the fact that Overpass adiff states are consistent and can be updated even if a feature arrives later in a minutely replication. And also that we host Overpass instance to entirely do this so it's a bit more reliable.

geohacker commented Apr 12, 2017

@tyrasd I was going to post here, this is a thorough hack but works alright.

  • I hooked a script on our Overpass instance to write minutely augmented diffs to an S3 location.
  • Then, we listen to the OSM minutely replication, prepare a list of all the feature timestamps that appear.
  • If the required state is the current minute, download adiff from S3.
  • If the state required isn't in Overpass we put the task back in a queue.
  • If an old minutely adiff state is needed, request this via the Overpass API, and update adiff on S3 and update the changeset with new features.

This relies entirely on the fact that Overpass adiff states are consistent and can be updated even if a feature arrives later in a minutely replication. And also that we host Overpass instance to entirely do this so it's a bit more reliable.

@geohacker

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@geohacker

geohacker Apr 12, 2017

Oh and the augmented diffs are also available for download. https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/overpass-db-ap-northeast-1/augmented-diffs/

The state of the latest augmented diff is in a file called latest, like https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/overpass-db-ap-northeast-1/augmented-diffs/latest.

You can request for an augmented diff this way: https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/overpass-db-ap-northeast-1/augmented-diffs/2409184.osc

Hope this helps and also reduce load on the Overpass instance!

geohacker commented Apr 12, 2017

Oh and the augmented diffs are also available for download. https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/overpass-db-ap-northeast-1/augmented-diffs/

The state of the latest augmented diff is in a file called latest, like https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/overpass-db-ap-northeast-1/augmented-diffs/latest.

You can request for an augmented diff this way: https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/overpass-db-ap-northeast-1/augmented-diffs/2409184.osc

Hope this helps and also reduce load on the Overpass instance!

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Apr 12, 2017

Contributor

This relies entirely on the fact that Overpass adiff states are consistent and can be updated even if a feature arrives later in a minutely replication

@geohacker : As mentioned before in the blog comment, there's one drawback you need to be aware of: most data consumers would assume an augmented diff not to change once it has been published. For your use case, that's perfectly ok, because users will typically fetch data at a much later point in time for changeset analysis purposes. By the time users look at the augmented diffs, they should be ok in 99,999+% of cases.

In other usage scenarios (like updating stats based on augmented diffs, something @tyrasd is working on), you might get screwed by those "behind the scenes updates" of already published augmented diffs. That's a bit how Overpass behaves right now: if you call the underlying query powering the augmented_diff call multiple times across a number of minutes / hours, you might get different results. The caching mechanism for augmented diffs hides that effect a bit, but that doesn't really change the overall issue.

I think I mentioned somewhere in this issue, that we could in theory delay the publication of augmented diffs until we're sure that no further data for a given timeframe will arrive. Some data consumers might find that better. On the downside, that could mean that we have to delay publication for minutes, hours and sometimes even days.

Anyway, in the long run, Roland needs to come up with some magic to include replicate_id information in the database as well. And we'd probably even need much more magic to address the semantic gap between minutely diffs and timestamps.

Fun fact: 3 years ago, persisting augmented diffs was given up in favor of on-the-fly generation. Quoting from the 0.7.50 version release notes:

"The Augmented Diffs are redesigned to be always generated on the fly. This is because the Augmented Diffs have been piling up on the server to almost a terabyte of data and we are running out of space."

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Apr 12, 2017

This relies entirely on the fact that Overpass adiff states are consistent and can be updated even if a feature arrives later in a minutely replication

@geohacker : As mentioned before in the blog comment, there's one drawback you need to be aware of: most data consumers would assume an augmented diff not to change once it has been published. For your use case, that's perfectly ok, because users will typically fetch data at a much later point in time for changeset analysis purposes. By the time users look at the augmented diffs, they should be ok in 99,999+% of cases.

In other usage scenarios (like updating stats based on augmented diffs, something @tyrasd is working on), you might get screwed by those "behind the scenes updates" of already published augmented diffs. That's a bit how Overpass behaves right now: if you call the underlying query powering the augmented_diff call multiple times across a number of minutes / hours, you might get different results. The caching mechanism for augmented diffs hides that effect a bit, but that doesn't really change the overall issue.

I think I mentioned somewhere in this issue, that we could in theory delay the publication of augmented diffs until we're sure that no further data for a given timeframe will arrive. Some data consumers might find that better. On the downside, that could mean that we have to delay publication for minutes, hours and sometimes even days.

Anyway, in the long run, Roland needs to come up with some magic to include replicate_id information in the database as well. And we'd probably even need much more magic to address the semantic gap between minutely diffs and timestamps.

Fun fact: 3 years ago, persisting augmented diffs was given up in favor of on-the-fly generation. Quoting from the 0.7.50 version release notes:

"The Augmented Diffs are redesigned to be always generated on the fly. This is because the Augmented Diffs have been piling up on the server to almost a terabyte of data and we are running out of space."

@mmd-osm

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@mmd-osm

mmd-osm Nov 26, 2017

Contributor

I implemented a very lightweight approach in https://github.com/mmd-osm/Overpass-API/wiki/Settings-for-0.7.58mmd-branch#other-files, which basically checks for an empty txnActiveList, and writes an additional status file called osm_base_completed_version. This file contains the current timestamp for which no pending transactions exist on the main db.

Assumption here is that an empty txnActiveList implies that all pending transactions have been completed, and we should have all data for the given timestamp available in the Overpass DB. As long as there are any transaction number in this state file, we have to assume that there are still some in flight transactions, and it's better to wait.

https://github.com/mmd-osm/Overpass-API/wiki/Settings-for-0.7.58mmd-branch#rules_delta_completedsh provides an example on how to control area updates and make sure that we always have the complete data when updating areas. Previously, some objects might not have been processed for the same reasons as with the current augmented diffs.

This approach could of course also be used for augmented diffs as well, by delaying creating new augmented diffs until txnActiveList becomes empty. There may be some delays once in a while, still it's the easiest way as of today to ensure augmented diffs are complete. In addition, exactly zero changes are needed to the C++ backend, which is a big plus. Implementation effort wise it's fairly straightforward as well.

Updated analysis: openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website#1710 (comment)

Contributor

mmd-osm commented Nov 26, 2017

I implemented a very lightweight approach in https://github.com/mmd-osm/Overpass-API/wiki/Settings-for-0.7.58mmd-branch#other-files, which basically checks for an empty txnActiveList, and writes an additional status file called osm_base_completed_version. This file contains the current timestamp for which no pending transactions exist on the main db.

Assumption here is that an empty txnActiveList implies that all pending transactions have been completed, and we should have all data for the given timestamp available in the Overpass DB. As long as there are any transaction number in this state file, we have to assume that there are still some in flight transactions, and it's better to wait.

https://github.com/mmd-osm/Overpass-API/wiki/Settings-for-0.7.58mmd-branch#rules_delta_completedsh provides an example on how to control area updates and make sure that we always have the complete data when updating areas. Previously, some objects might not have been processed for the same reasons as with the current augmented diffs.

This approach could of course also be used for augmented diffs as well, by delaying creating new augmented diffs until txnActiveList becomes empty. There may be some delays once in a while, still it's the easiest way as of today to ensure augmented diffs are complete. In addition, exactly zero changes are needed to the C++ backend, which is a big plus. Implementation effort wise it's fairly straightforward as well.

Updated analysis: openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website#1710 (comment)

Sign up for free to join this conversation on GitHub. Already have an account? Sign in to comment