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Ethereum Core Devs Meeting 51 Notes

Meeting Date/Time: Fri, December 7, 2018 14:00 UTC

Meeting Duration: 1.5 hours

GitHub Agenda Page

Audio/Video of the meeting


  1. Testing
  2. Client Updates
  3. Research Updates
  4. Working Group Updates
  5. Constantinople HF
  6. Openness of meetings
  7. ProgPoW update
  8. Quick announcement re: coordinator roles
  9. Date for next meeting?


  • Brian intro
    • Recently hired to work full time on making testing better
    • Not sure what that means yet - easy to generate and use tests
    • I've talked to Trinity, have an idea what they want
    • Please reach out and tell me what you'd like to see improved
  • Dimitry
    • Finishing EXTCODEHASH implementation
    • Discovered that every EXTCODEHASH test can be used to test *SIZE, *COPY, and *CALL
      • Not related to Const.
      • Each could be enhanced like that
      • Received a lot of help writing these tests from [Andrei?] and Hugo
    • Finishing things still on list
    • Still waiting for contribution on bitshift test review
    • Waiting for hive results to see if there are any issues we need to fix, or new tests we need to write
    • Martin said Hive has some maintenance
    • CREATE2, SSTORE tests ready, bitshift ready but needs review, EXTCODEHASH mostly covered
  • Martin
    • We're in process of rewriting Hive and making it more robust
    • In the meantime it's kind of flakey
    • Will also see some additional tests, P2P stuff I mentioned previously
    • Regarding tests
      • Updated all tests for geth less than two weeks ago
      • All tests pass
      • Kind of expected client devs to import and run tests in native settings, despite having Hive
      • But hoping to have Hive up and running again within next couple of days
      • No new failures on fuzz testers running for at least last couple of weeks
      • So I'm fairly confidence in code in geth and parity

Client updates

  • Harmony/EthereumJ (Mikhail)
    • No major updates
    • Mostly working on Beacon chain impl., been major spec changes lately, still catching up over next couple of weeks
  • Parity (Fred)
    • Released 2.2.2 with new improvements, some exciting stuff
    • Improves sync performance
    • Pairing stability, fixed pairing issues where it now finds a lot of pairs but fluctuation in pair counts
    • Block propagation fixed - waiting to see effect on network
    • Other minor things
    • Decided to move jsonrpc APIs not yet accepted in an EIP but implemented anyway (eth.person or web3 namespaces) - now disabled by default, enable with flag -jsonrpc-experimental
  • Geth (Peter)
    • Database optimizations
    • Just trying out ideas and looking at charts
  • Turbogeth (Alexey)
    • Fixed bugs found with Ropsten sync, syncs now
    • Started to work on test suite
    • Never run tests, have issues, fixing them
    • In order to make it work, had to modify boltDB
    • Now can run boltDB in in-memory mode, nothing on disk, wanted to try this for a long time
    • Client still not ready for Const., CREATE2 revival still not addressed, will address this
    • Found myself using turbogeth a lot recently as it's useful for extracting data I used for state rent proposal
    • 300gb database on external DB, made some copies of it and running data analysis
  • Aleth (Pawel)
    • Fixes and improvements to network code
    • Probably today will have a new tool that will work as a bootnode, can be used similarly to geth bootnode, want to put somewhere on mainnet or testnet as alternate implementation
  • Nimbus (Jacek)
    • Been focusing on parts of VM related to DevEx, e.g. debug and tracing
    • Let us know if you have any ideas, this is a good time to discuss
    • First Eth 2.0 testing framework and PoC things are landing right now, discussion on gitter
    • Good time to influence direction of Eth 2.0 testing
    • - Ethereum 2 testing working group looking for feedback on the first proof-of-concept test vectors - now is a good time to join :)
  • Pantheon (Danno)
    • Planning on minor release next week
    • Includes contribs from external contributors
    • Including Goerli support
    • Looking into [missed this]
    • Beacon chain impl.
  • Mana (Andrew)
    • Syncing Const. blocks on Ropsten, anticipating full sync shortly
  • Adam (Swarm)
    • Swarm is a part of geth, in same repo with own semantic versioning
    • Last geth release contains swarm improvements such as access control on feeds
    • Will be announced with a blog post coming with next major release of geth
    • Last two weeks, introduced user perception tests [?] and benchmarks
  • Ewasm (Lane)
    • Working towards testnet spec v3
    • Released #Eth1x proposal, working towards this


  • Danny update
    • Revisions of phase 0 - Serenity beacon chain spec
    • Readability, reorg., polishing data structures - major edits of spec
    • Tough to keep up, homing in on first version of release candidate
    • Phase 1 - sharded data chain algo. - data structures forming there
      • General algorithms known
      • Being specified
    • State execution, account structures - lots of thought going into this
    • Handful of proposals on that V posted that we're looking for feedback on
    • Justin and VFD alliance: increasing number of blockchains interested in adding VFDs in various ways
    • Begun to do Beacon chain implementation in py-evm
  • Justin did talk on VDFs at Devcon, video online
  • Other DevCon IV talks should be online today

Working group updates

  • Whiteblocks (Zak)
    • Putting together specs for testnet
    • Working with 1x in simulation group
    • Relevant for testers as well
    • Will schedule separate call today that I'll post in issue that I opened
    • Please join and provide feedback, we can start getting specs for testnet and building it out
    • Will be powered by Whiteblock framework
  • Alexey
    • I have a writeup on state rent - first version of proposal published, received a lot of feedback
    • Most interesting one: V suggested using CREATE2 opcode and some other things to implement something I proposed to do with linear cross-contract storage
    • I managed to implement ERC-20 contract based on these ideas
    • It actually works, can mint and transfer tokens
    • Interesting to get feel of how you'd use CREATE2
    • Commented on issue in solidity, created thread on EthMagicians for ppl interested in creating new primitives to make it easier to work with CREATE2
    • Right now you have to copy and paste bytecode into source code
    • Linear cross-contract storage will most likely be dropped from next version of proposal
      • Priority queue too
      • But I'll still look into linear storage elsewhere e.g. Ewasm integration
    • I've asked PegaSys team to help with PoC, Adrian Sutton created first prototype, reviewing and hope to get my prototype running as well - so this is based on pantheon for now
    • Done a lot of data analysis, not all included in proposal
      • Trying to run heuristics to identify all ERC20 tokens in state
      • Looking for successful token transfers
      • Around 71k contracts
      • Take around 53% of all contract storage
      • Cryptokitties is also ERC-20 - has both this and 721
      • Very important class of contract, that's why I did sample implementation using V's ideas
    • Next step will be to look into on-chain order books
    • Put some ideas about how to identify them
    • Will do some analysis about token nexus contracts - tokens go in and out - likely will be on-chain order books
    • Might be able to compress state using generations
      • Looking into how we can have a very compact representation of current state
      • E.g. all contracts that GasToken creates could be generated using minimal seed data
      • So it would not take a lot of space in the snapshot
      • Not sure how well suited other clients are for data analysis - but someone could look at Google Ethereum dataset - see if it's possible to reproduce the data analysis I did, some in state rent proposal, plus this ERC20 analysis
      • If someone gets the hang of this, might be a good way to split up this work, there's so much to do in this workstream and I can't do it all alone
      • So trying to enlist people to do PoC, data analysis, maybe mods to Solidity and Vyper to make all this easier
  • Ewasm
    • See proposal and FEM thread
  • Peter "working group" on state pruning
    • FEM thread:
    • Long Github gist about two weeks ago (proposal)
    • In blog post I mentioned that I think there are two viable approaches we should experiment with
      • IPFS and Bittorrent
      • But both kinda of suck
      • Want to experiment with Felix's ENR work
      • Tiny extension to discovery protocol, really elegant
      • Nodes can advertise certain capabilities
      • Most infra. in place already
      • Want to play around with it where nodes advertise that they're a light or full node with certain datasets available
      • Trying to figure out whether we could do the whole historical state retrieval in protocol without needing to hack another decentralized protocol for it
      • Not sure if it's possible, but this is a third direction that may be valuable, need it anyway for light servers
    • Q: is this discovery V5?
    • A: depends how you define it, it's different, but Felix wants this ENR work to become new discovery v5
    • Problem is that it was hacked into protocol but not scalable
    • ENR approach is clear, there are a few EIPs open, quite a lot of published material
    • Danny: We are discussing using mature version of Dv5 for advertising which shards you're participating in
    • Peter: Considering putting historical state on top of that mechanism
    • Can't yet see single proposal that will work

Constantinople hard fork

  • Afri block time proposals
    • Last time we decided to talk about a block number at this meeting
    • I just put down some numbers
    • Did calculations to see how much it could vary if we target a Weds - would most likely fall on a weekday
    • Afri proposed block 7080042
    • Lane: have we always used even numbers ending in -0000 in the past?
    • Alexey: We don't think someone will start super mining to speed up the fork do we?
    • Danny: Would be very expensive on mainnet
    • Afri: very unlikely because of high difficulty of mainnet. Worst case scenario, if price of Eth continues dropping fast and a lot of miners stop mining then it could slow us down
    • Block times have been stable recently so this is not a concern
    • Martin: We'll put block number into next release with possible commandline option to delay it
      • Only reason to change block number again would be if we find another consensus bug
    • Hudson: All previous ones have been -000
    • Hudson: Do people prefer the palindrome or sticking with -000?
    • Peter: palindromes could be hard in the future
      • Easy if block numbers still in the millions'
    • Greg: four zeroes, keep it easy
    • Palindromes for testnet, four zeroes for mainnet - let's do this
    • So let's use 7080000
  • Stireby update
    • [missed a bit]
    • Alexey
      • Failure was that there was a GPU miner, we fell prey to this because spec was public
      • Plan was to have a bit more mining, didn't happen
      • Not going to push to have another one
      • I think this was worth doing
    • Martin: Suggestion for new PoW testnet called Gangnam with more genesis alloc, can deprecate Ropsten
      • For dapp testing
    • Peter: Good time to bring up a few discussions
      • We agreed we don't want to continue Ropsten
      • But do we want to relaunch a PoW or instead do a PoA network?
      • Afri & co. have been working on Goerli testnet
      • Would mean we don't have a public PoW testnet but we could always do public PoW testnet forks just to verify PoW and difficulties when we need to do a hard fork
      • Not too much point in running a PoW replacement for Ropsten
    • Martin: We'd drop all Trinity, aleth, and those that haven't yet implemented clique yet
    • Afri: This can be done
      • With all devs out there we can do this
      • Agree with Peter that going fwd with PoW not feasible, this Stirby experience showed how unfeasible PoW testnets are
      • Esp. having one for apps not for consensus needs
    • Mikhail: Fresh test networks not good for testing difficulty bomb delays - block numbers too low, not yet activated
    • Zak: join this testnet call since we can create testnets with relative ease that are provisioned and controlled
    • Peter: We can create purpose-built testnets to test difficulty adjustment - for everything else PoA is a saner approach from dapp developer perspective
    • Zak: Will probably want different consensus algos in different testnets for different reasons - purpose built
      • Provisioning, ensuring adequate activity is the hard part
    • Peter: if we want a purpose-built testnet to test difficult adjustment then we don't need any activity
      • For other stuff PoA works fine
    • Mikhail: Could add configuration for difficult bomb and delays
    • Peter: Don't need to make a decision about this here
      • If we want to replace Ropsten it might be a good idea to do a PoA testnet
      • Everyone please think about it, if someone has a good reason why it's a horrible idea we'll consider that
    • Zak: Activity, background traffic will affect consensus and various metrics within the network
    • Peter: This is the point of having a public testnet, have traffic etc.
    • Alexey: Let's explore option of purpose-built PoW network with Zac and then come back and discuss more on next call, whether this is feasible, PoW for specific things and PoA for everything else
    • Zak: These testnets can be ephemeral, not entirely public, will be permissioned, activity and behavior will be automated with our tools
    • Hudson: This is a good topic for the next meeting
      • Will Goerli be compatible with ETC? Is that a problem?
      • Afri: No, it will not have ETC compatibility
      • But we work on something similar for ETC

Openness for meetings

  • Hudson: Enough people who said "over my dead body" re: any type of closed meetings
    • So we will have open meetings for now
    • Less inclination to do this for these calls
    • Not sure about in person yet - technical feasibility is different
    • Won't have any more "Eth1x" / mainnet improvement calls as WG all created now
    • So we'll just keep doing what we've been doing
    • If anyone has a differing opinion speak now or speak to me privately later
  • Martin: There are WG, we will talk within them
    • Is that frowned upon?
  • Hudson: That can be private or public, it's not a core dev meeting
    • There was some confusion around that
  • Greg: There was useful discussion on where to make the call about what you open up and how much
    • It's a matter of judgment
    • From chat: While we worry about not feeling free to speak our minds in public in the face of a clueless press, I used to help organize anti-war actions with FBI infiltrators at our open meetings, and a press that would accuse us of violence when the cops had finished beating us.
    • When I did war demonstrations, we had FBI and CIA infiltrators and a press who would accuse us of violence after the police beat us up
    • So I shrug and say, this is important but we don't really have that much on the line, it just isn't that hard

ProgPoW update

  • Pawel: Last two weeks, there's one reported issue left, reported at beginning of this week, need to resolve
    • Solution is decided but requires some small changes to implementation to mitigate small flaw in algorithm
  • Martin: Had implementations in C++, ethhash, verifiers for geth and parity, then spec changed, geth and cpp updated, parity hasn't yet implemented latest changes
    • Some more discussion about potentially changing spec
    • Two clients in sync
    • If parity implements most recent changes then we could launch a testnet
  • Martin: We had discussion with various people in crypto communities
    • One is David Warwick (?), creator of Zia
    • Got his approval to quote him
    • ProgPoW, if we were to replace hashimoto S/ethhash with this, it would probably keep ASICs away for 1-1.5 years
    • If we increase the resistance towards ASICs then that could itself increase centralization because only a very advanced ASIC manufacturer could afford to R&D such an ASIC that would get efficiency gains
    • So he believes it would buy us 1-2 yrs, but another approach is to use an algo which is extremely ASIC-friendly
    • We could adopt ProgPoW now and if a year from now we still don't have PoS, we might consider switching to something very ASIC friendly which even a small manufacturer can produce
    • Regarding prevalence of ASICs on network today, it's very hard to find numbers
    • Have been reported from various sources but none can be taken as fact
    • No records on units manufactured or sold so it's hard to take that into account
    • Some people think the fact that we're implementing ProgPoW is already decided, this is not the case, we are open to other options
  • Alexey: I started to think about ProgPoW more because of eth1x proposals, elephant in room is what are other things slated for eth1.0
    • ProgPoW which will take some amount of work
    • Second, Justin's interview for Epicenter, he said the reason they want to develop a VDF ASIC so that no one else can get a major advantage by creating something much much better
    • I'm glad Martin mentioned as well that there is a potential downside (re: centralization)
    • I want people to explore both
  • Hudson: Reminder that these eth1x roadmap working groups are still not finalized
  • Lane: Would it make sense for the new app testnet to be a ProgPoW POW testnet?
    • A: Not really
    • Martin: Just envelope of blocks, doesn't matter whether they are full or empty
    • Pawel: We want a testnet with a switch from one algo to the other, so not pure ProgPoW, or switching back and forth, let's keep them separate
    • Martin: Try different configs with a series of testnets

Quick announcement re: coordinator roles

  • Hudson, Danny, Lane, Afri, Piper, Casey, Jamie Pitts have been getting people together to discuss coordinator role
    • Person/people in thids role could help out with hard forks with Hudson and Afri
    • Also EIPs and core devs calls
    • Will be announcing them over the next few months, starting in January
    • You'll start seeing more of that
    • Main goal is to lighten load for Hudson, Lane, Afri and others who have been handling coordination for things like core devs calls
    • Also to train people as future PMs for teams
    • We'll work hard to get them more integrated into these calls, do it in a way that supports the core devs
    • Idea to make it as easy and stress-free as possible for core devs

Date for next meeting

  • Anyone opposed to skipping next call for holidays?
  • No opposition
  • Next call will be Jan. 4


  • Hudson
  • Lane
  • Alexey
  • Pawel
  • Peter
  • Fred
  • Mikhail
  • Zak Cole
  • Fred Harryson
  • Dimitry Khoklov
  • Brian
  • Jacek
  • Danny
  • Danno
  • Andrew Gross
  • Daniel Ellison
  • Afri
  • Martin Holst Swende
  • Greg
  • Adam Schmideg
  • Shahan Khatchadourian
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