New issue

Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.

By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.

Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account

is express dying? #2844

Closed
TrejGun opened this Issue Jan 10, 2016 · 170 comments

Comments

Projects
None yet
@TrejGun
Copy link

TrejGun commented Jan 10, 2016

Since TJ left the project and it became "property" of StrongLoop the project is slowly dying.
I guess you (StrongLoop) promised TJ and thus a community to continue to maintain the code.
Sure you want to push part of express users to use yours solutions and to make money on support.
But open-source gave a start to your company and if you don't want to share back your code and time, just give a control back to community

@aredridel

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Contributor

aredridel commented Jan 10, 2016

What? Doug Wilson is doing a spectacular job of maintenance. One of the hardest working folks I've ever encountered in open source.

@lordKnighton

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

lordKnighton commented Jan 10, 2016

I agree with @aredridel Doug wilson is always working his ass off. I'm a huge Tj fan @tj . I think what your comparing is, express when it was hot & it was the go to framework for Node.js , but now there are more frameworks vying for the attention of developers. I don't think you're completely off your rocker, but to each his own 😄 👍

@TrejGun

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

TrejGun commented Jan 10, 2016

I know Doug Wilson was committing to express (and other TJ's project) since its beginning and i appreciate his work. However i don't know if he works for strongloop now and have less free time.

please, look at commits
there are nothing except new npm versions and some docs since august and a very few before

PR for async route handlers was introduced in november and not merged yet
#2809

release 5.0 was initiated on july but stale since november
#2237

@ghost

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

ghost commented Jan 10, 2016

You should check this out: #2827

@Twipped

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

Twipped commented Jan 10, 2016

@TrejGun If the intent of your post is to shame strongloop, you really need to mention strongloop in the post, because right now it looks like you're shitting all over @dougwilson's hard work.

Most of the bulk of Express' codebase has been refactored out into external dependencies, which Doug is constantly maintaining. That is why the only commits you see are npm version bumps, because he's updating for changes in those dependencies. Express 5 will take this even further by completely removing the routing engine from express core. Look at Doug's public timeline and tell me that he isn't actively working on Express.

Doug is one of the hardest working OSS contributors in the NodeJS community. Comments such as yours not only undermine his massive efforts, but also contribute to developer burn out (which Doug has recently recovered from). You are not helping with the problem, @TrejGun, you're making it worse.

@dougwilson

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

dougwilson commented Jan 10, 2016

Hi everyone, reading @TrejGun 's initial post, it doesn't sound directed to me, more directed to the project/StrongLoop/IBM. Thanks for the kind works, everyone, I really want to see the continued success of Express, but the situation of the project ownership makes this extremely difficult.

I am working with IBM to find a good path forward.

@NetOperatorWibby

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

NetOperatorWibby commented Jan 10, 2016

Yikes!

Express is awesome. I don't understand why StrongLoop/IBM won't speak, that's absurd.

@tj

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

tj commented Jan 10, 2016

FWIW projects don't have to change in order to be good. Nothing wrong with a project finding its place and staying relatively put. I haven't been following what's going on with Express, that might not even be the case but that's my opinion.

@mikermcneil

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

mikermcneil commented Jan 11, 2016

@tj hallelujah

@dougwilson thank you for taking the time to post publicly about this. You have my support, and the support of the Sails.js core maintainers regardless of what happens. I am hopeful that when the moving parts settle down, IBM will be able to help. Let me know if there's any way I can assist in the interim.

@TrejGun

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

TrejGun commented Jan 11, 2016

@ChiperSoft don't know what you are about. there is strongloop and there is no Doug's name in the initial post.

@tj very glad to see you in this topic. the life is change. we have big upcoming es6 changes which can help reduce code and improve performance. for example #2809 is only 8 lines but i will shave of 200 lines from each of my projects

@dougwilson thanks for you answer, you just confirmed my guesses about a reason strongloop bought express. at least they don't mind if it die. sad story but not so rare. and the solution is not so rare too.

express has MIT license so anybody can fork it at any time and continue to maintain as express 2.0
what do you think about this?

@ritch

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

ritch commented Jan 11, 2016

What? Doug Wilson is doing a spectacular job of maintenance. One of the hardest working folks I've ever encountered in open source.

+1

@ritch

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

ritch commented Jan 12, 2016

Hey gals and guys. Express is certainly active and poised to move even faster. I agree with concerns that @dougwilson has been unfairly carrying the project maintenance, which just isn't sustainable. I know from experience that triaging issues and working on bugs is not very exciting work. It leads to burn out fairly quickly. It just shows how dedicated @dougwilson is to this project that he has been doing it for this long and without much help.

IBM leadership has heard the call for help loud and clear and is announcing increased sponsorship of the project including two very talented IBM developers: @hacksparrow (Yaapa) and @tunniclm (Mike). Other names are likely to follow as we more clearly understand what is required and how we can assist. This means more dedicated developers on the project than ever before.

We are also looking at ways to optimize how the express and related repositories are organized to make it easier to contribute to the project by community members as individuals and in organizations (including IBM).

This will take some time to get it right and we ask for your patience. Please keep your comments and recommendations coming to ensure all points of view are considered.

@EvanHahn

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Contributor

EvanHahn commented Jan 13, 2016

I'd love to start contributing to Express but I'm not quite sure where to start. Are there issues I can pick up?

@ritch

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

ritch commented Jan 13, 2016

You could take a look at the list of help wanted issues if you are looking for some issues to dig into.

The project needs the most help right now triaging issues on github (determining if bugs are bugs, pointing people to existing answers to questions, etc). Also idling and answering questions in gitter would be a huge help to the project.

@jordonias

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Contributor

jordonias commented Jan 13, 2016

@ritch Is gitter used more often than irc? I've have never used gitter before and can't seem to find a room for express even.

@EvanHahn

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Contributor

EvanHahn commented Jan 13, 2016

@jordonias Not sure about usage, but here's a link to the Gitter site.

@jordonias

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Contributor

jordonias commented Jan 13, 2016

Thanks @EvanHahn. Not sure why I wasn't able to find it, I searched for express and strongloop/express, maybe this should be in Readme.md

@dougwilson

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

dougwilson commented Jan 13, 2016

I think this issue can be closed (I cannot actually close it). I have removed myself from the SrongLoop organization on GitHub and so no longer can manage issues or commit code.

@crandmck

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

crandmck commented Jan 13, 2016

maybe this should be in Readme.md

@jordonias Good suggestion. PR?

FYI, the Gitter channel is noted in http://expressjs.com/en/resources/community.html.

@dougwilson

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

dougwilson commented Jan 13, 2016

Re: is express dying?

I would say that no, not particularly, as Express has it's spot in the ecosystem that is well-established.

And remember, I will be helping with Express, mainly with questions from IBM employees rather than direct actions in this repository. Please welcome in @hacksparrow , @crandmck , and @tunniclm to the main repository!

@Twipped

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

Twipped commented Jan 13, 2016

@dougwilson are you moving on to PillarJS full swing, or is this something else entirely?

@rmg

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

rmg commented Jan 13, 2016

@dougwilson you should probably add some people to the express module as maintainers.. at the moment you are the only one who can actually publish a release of express.

@dougwilson

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

dougwilson commented Jan 14, 2016

Hi @ChiperSoft , both, basically. Some of the things outlined are conceptually above the pillarjs level of separation. As I have been working on on trying to get HTTP/2 into Express, I have found it's probably not very doable because of how Express is done (since it's critically coupled with the Node.js built-in http module). It was probably inevitable that this would have resulted in a new framework anyway.

As I have been maintaining Express, my # 1 priority has been backwards-compatibility and not disrupting the entire ecosystem. There is nothing with this Express as-is in general, so if getting good HTTP/2 and Promises into Express results in a massive change for the community, it should just be a different framework anyway, .i.m.o. (similar to the Express/Koa split, really).

Hi @rmg , these kinds of details are being discussed in meetings with IBM. You're welcome to join if you speak with Jason from IBM or whoever is going to be scheduling them (I don't have insight into this).

@rmg

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

rmg commented Jan 14, 2016

@dougwilson I imagine npm owner add strongloop express would be a reasonable default action since the world was convinced a while ago that that was the case anyway.

Wouldn't that be better than leaving the project in a situation where the only person who can publish release has voluntarily given up their ability to tag releases.

@dougwilson

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

dougwilson commented Jan 14, 2016

Hi @rmg , I am working with IBM employees regarding this.

@rmg

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

rmg commented Jan 14, 2016

@dougwilson I'm sorry that I've upset you and failed to account for the privilege granted to me by being a StrongLoop/IBM employee. My statements here have been as a concerned Express user and nothing more, but I should have done better.


Just to wrap up my portion of this public thread, as an individual express user without any involvement in the IBM side of any discussions, my concern is:

#2844 (comment)

I have removed myself from the SrongLoop organization on GitHub and so no longer can manage issues or commit code.

$ npm owner ls express
dougwilson <...>

=

What happens if something critical comes up before the situation is resolved?


I will now proceed through IBM channels to get involved and offer whatever help I can.

@tlivings

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

tlivings commented Jan 23, 2016

@jasnell is the position of StrongLoop/IBM that returning express to the control of the community is not an option? If so, why? From your comments above, it sounds very much like StrongLoop/IBM want to provide a platform for the community to have a voice, but retain ownership. This isn't necessarily in the best interests of the community, particularly the "enterprise" community, which has legitimate concerns over ownership of the project.

@RnbWd

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

RnbWd commented Jan 23, 2016

I regret saying anything in this conversation... Im just a random person whose used express for a few years, and I participated in some of the discussions when io.js forked. I even watched a few live streams... with two other people. It felt like less than a % of nodejs communjty participated in the iojs discussions. So I'd take everything said in this thread with a grain of a salt, including what I'm about to say:

I honestly don't care who maintains the project, but Express is the most important library in the nodejs ecosystem, so I hope this is handled proper without much drama. That's it. I still consider it @tj's baby.

@windmaomao

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

windmaomao commented Jan 23, 2016

the first time i noticed IBM came to this picture, and advertising for strongloop, it gave me a strong feeling that it's time to move on. I have worked with IBM people in the past, there's nothing "open" in this company's culture, no offense, you do not have to be good at this for a company, especially this big. But when it comes to "open source", this is not IBM's thing. This could be Google's thing, even Walmart's, but not IBM's. Just my two cents.

@jfathman

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

jfathman commented Jan 23, 2016

I remember how IBM shocked industry by switching to Linux in 2000 and investing $1B in Linux development. If you Google search for "IBM open source", you will find IBM is very active contributing to open source, and has been for many years. From a 2015 press release, "Currently, IBM participates in and contributes to more than 150 open source projects. These projects include Spark, OpenStack, Cloud Foundry, Open Contain Project, Node.js, CouchDb, Linux, Eclipse and an already established relationship with Apache."

I remember my disbelief when Walmart turned out to be a significant contributor to Node.js, both Hapi technology and success stories. I think we are all still surprised that Microsoft is acting like a good citizen in Node.js, including open sourcing the ChakraCore engine.

I imagine open source values were foreign to Fortune 500 decision makers twenty years ago, but consider this. Most of the technology middle managers at these companies today with ten to fifteen years experience grew up with open source. It was probably a revolution from within.

It is perhaps not all altruistic. I suspect some of the motivation comes from IBM and Microsoft trying to return to relevance in a changing world where developers have moved away from expensive, proprietary, subscription development tools. Revenue is one measure of success, and essential, but the new prime metric seems to be "developer mindshare". If the top technology companies want to fall all over each other to give me high quality free software, so they can count me among the throng that puts their sticker on my computer, it works for me.

Open source was a grass roots revolution. But revolutions, if successful, become the new establishment. Open source may be entering its establishment phase, and that is going to have a different look and feel.

@windmaomao

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

windmaomao commented Jan 23, 2016

fork can not be as bad as not working on it at all. Why not putting community thing still in the fork, and let IBM do whatever they want.

the upside we can have another interesting name, ex. aexpress etc.

@jasnell

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

jasnell commented Jan 23, 2016

@tlivings: it is our position that there are several steps to this process and we're still discovering what those are. The community already has a voice (it doesn't need us to establish a platform for that voice). What we (IBM) need to do is keep listening to that voice and work with and within the community to identify the governance model that makes sense. Doing so will make it possible to grow the base of contributors so express can thrive and grow. Nothing else beyond that has been settled at all and all options are on the table. Continued feedback from the community is something we are actively seeking to help inform and guide the discussion. For the time being, tho, I'm heading off to Lowe's to pick up paint and a power sander so I can finish building my kid's furniture. I'll follow up more on this on Monday.

@arackaf

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

arackaf commented Jan 25, 2016

@jasnell

Continued feedback from the community is something we are actively seeking to help inform and guide the discussion

I think the community has voiced its view pretty clearly: return Express back to the community. I know corporations like IBM aren't known for moving too .... quickly. But I really hope they don't screw this up. Express is one of the more successful OSS projects and I'd hate to see it destroyed by lethargic corporate arrogance.

Please find a solution that involves returning control of the repo to the community, and please find it quickly.

@RnbWd

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

RnbWd commented Jan 26, 2016

When io.js was discussing the node foundation merge - threads were filled with individuals with an anti corporate stance. Eg: 'Microsoft will kill node, they don't even use JavaScript why should we trust them?' - well I live in Seattle and know people who work there... the anti-corporate rhetoric isn't based in fact - it's principle. Open source values are antithetical to corporate values. Open source is like a gifting economy - similar to burning burning man where you give and expect nothing in return. Another principle is radical inclusion - but that doesn't mean you have a right to run the theme camp. There are lots of logistics involved and things get complicated (plus the tech community is ubiquitous at the event, from CEOs to entry level devs)

Express is not 'owned by the community - people with the loudest voice don't represent a majority either. Express was a gift given to us by @tj who transferred responsibility - but it doesn't change anything. Even though it's open source, the community doesn't have an inherent right to demand control over IBM - who is perfectly capable of maintaining express want to see community involvement. If they stop accepting pull requests like what Joyent did.... I think that would justify a community takeover. But we should give them a chance before coming to conclusions based on their past (it's a pretty big company FYI).

In the meantime... if a similar project with open governance and no corporate involvement took off - I'd use that over express without question. It's like comparing Debian vs Ubuntu vs LibreLinux vs Fedora etc. etc. - if you want open governance - FORK IT - and I'll support the project. It's healthy for the ecosystem.

@jasnell

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

jasnell commented Jan 26, 2016

All, to be certain, we do have a plan that is being discussed with Doug and
a few others. Not all of the details are hammered out yet so we are working
through them a bit before we post the details. I believe we are moving
towards something that the community can embrace but I promise that we'll
post something here to the repo to get the community feedback on it very
soon. I just want to thank you all for the support you've shown to Doug and
to the project, he's done an amazing job developing and maintaining express.
On Jan 26, 2016 2:16 AM, "David Wisner" notifications@github.com wrote:

When io.js was discussing the node foundation merge - threads were filled
with individuals with an anti corporate stance. Eg: 'Microsoft will kill
node, they don't even use JavaScript why should we trust them?' - well I
live in Seattle and know people who work there... the anti-corporate
rhetoric isn't based in fact - it's principle. Open source values are
antithetical to corporate values. Open source is a gifting economy like
burning man - you give and expect nothing in return. Another principle is
radical inclusion - but in reality there are logistics in designing theme
camps. CEO's and lots of people in the corporate tech world attend the
event as well, and they do contribute.

Express is not 'owned by the communjty' - people with the loudest voice
don't represent a majority. Express was a gift given to us by @tj
https://github.com/tj who transferred responsibility - but it doesn't
change anything. The community has no right demand control of a project
like this - IBM is perfectly capable of maintaining express wants to see
community involvement. If they stop accepting pull requests does what
Joyent did - I think that would justify a community takeover, but we should
give them a chance.

In the meantime... if a similar project with open governance and no
corporate involvement took off - I'd use that over express without
question. It's like Debian vs Ubuntu vs LibreLinux vs Fedora etc. etc. - if
you want open governance - FORK IT - and I'll support the project. It's
healthy for the ecosystem.


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#2844 (comment)
.

@aredridel

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Contributor

aredridel commented Jan 26, 2016

Good to hear, @jasnell

@ritch

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

ritch commented Jan 29, 2016

@ritch ritch closed this Jan 29, 2016

@dougwilson

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

dougwilson commented Jan 30, 2016

I am donating all of my Node.js modules to the Node.js foundation, to go along with Express.

https://twitter.com/blipsofadoug/status/693240458516926465

@lmarkus

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

lmarkus commented Jan 30, 2016

Hey @dougwilson, I hope that this decision was reached from a good place.
As you've seen, you have a ton of community support behind you, and it looks like the future is bright for these projects.

All the best!
(Also thanks to @jasnell for guiding the discussions in a level fashion)

@lordKnighton

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

lordKnighton commented Jan 30, 2016

👍 @jasnell

(Also thanks to @jasnell for guiding the discussions in a level fashion)

@dougwilson

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

dougwilson commented Jan 30, 2016

@mikeal is who helped me understand what putting Express.js in the foundation means and why it is the right choice. Because it's dependencies are critical to the ability for a working group to affect change in the Express.js codebase, I think that all my modules, which Express either depends on or official Express middleware depend on, should go with the Express repository into the foundation. This will allow a working group to effectively manage Express as well and help move it forward.

@luiselizondo

This comment has been minimized.

@jamesqo

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

jamesqo commented Feb 17, 2016

@luiselizondo Sounds awesome!

@amcdnl amcdnl referenced this issue Feb 22, 2016

Closed

KOA > Express #59

@mbonaci

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

mbonaci commented Feb 29, 2016

@jasnell If you want for Express to stay well, offer @dougwilson and @Fishrock123 a full-time position and full autonomy and let them do their thing.
Keeping the position of power ("you'll have to see", "you'll talk to Loop guys") brings IBM nothing, except threads like these, while doing what I suggested lets IBM use it in its marketing materials. You should make clear to all interested parties in IBM that that's all they're ever going to get out of it. Sponsors and contributors or Express.

@tleen

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

tleen commented Feb 29, 2016

I may be old. This GitHub generation of making binding decisions on Slack at 2am is not the world into which Express was purchased. IBM is not a bad company, but they are literally the company of all companies. Gihugey companies like IBM buy a company like StrongLoop and it make take them a year to have enough meetings and conferences to even know what they bought. Decisions are made at a glacial pace relative to closed-source startups, let alone the GitHub model some of you have known, and only known. IBM was writing software before your parents were born. IBM was old before the Internet was born.

Eventually they will get moving on things, but the pace you expect is in no way the pace to which they are generally accustomed. Patience is required. Careful calculated deliberation is the world into which Express was sold. Again, I may be old. They do try.

@wesleytodd

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link
Member

wesleytodd commented Feb 29, 2016

Can someone lock this conversation? I don't think it is possible for anything constructive to come from leaving this open.

@expressjs expressjs locked and limited conversation to collaborators Feb 29, 2016

@jasnell

This comment has been minimized.

Copy link

jasnell commented Feb 29, 2016

Done

Sign up for free to subscribe to this conversation on GitHub. Already have an account? Sign in.