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is express dying? #2844

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TrejGun opened this Issue Jan 10, 2016 · 170 comments

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TrejGun commented Jan 10, 2016

Since TJ left the project and it became "property" of StrongLoop the project is slowly dying.
I guess you (StrongLoop) promised TJ and thus a community to continue to maintain the code.
Sure you want to push part of express users to use yours solutions and to make money on support.
But open-source gave a start to your company and if you don't want to share back your code and time, just give a control back to community

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aredridel Jan 10, 2016

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What? Doug Wilson is doing a spectacular job of maintenance. One of the hardest working folks I've ever encountered in open source.

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aredridel commented Jan 10, 2016

What? Doug Wilson is doing a spectacular job of maintenance. One of the hardest working folks I've ever encountered in open source.

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lordKnighton Jan 10, 2016

I agree with @aredridel Doug wilson is always working his ass off. I'm a huge Tj fan @tj . I think what your comparing is, express when it was hot & it was the go to framework for Node.js , but now there are more frameworks vying for the attention of developers. I don't think you're completely off your rocker, but to each his own 😄 👍

lordKnighton commented Jan 10, 2016

I agree with @aredridel Doug wilson is always working his ass off. I'm a huge Tj fan @tj . I think what your comparing is, express when it was hot & it was the go to framework for Node.js , but now there are more frameworks vying for the attention of developers. I don't think you're completely off your rocker, but to each his own 😄 👍

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TrejGun Jan 10, 2016

I know Doug Wilson was committing to express (and other TJ's project) since its beginning and i appreciate his work. However i don't know if he works for strongloop now and have less free time.

please, look at commits
there are nothing except new npm versions and some docs since august and a very few before

PR for async route handlers was introduced in november and not merged yet
#2809

release 5.0 was initiated on july but stale since november
#2237

TrejGun commented Jan 10, 2016

I know Doug Wilson was committing to express (and other TJ's project) since its beginning and i appreciate his work. However i don't know if he works for strongloop now and have less free time.

please, look at commits
there are nothing except new npm versions and some docs since august and a very few before

PR for async route handlers was introduced in november and not merged yet
#2809

release 5.0 was initiated on july but stale since november
#2237

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ghost Jan 10, 2016

You should check this out: #2827

ghost commented Jan 10, 2016

You should check this out: #2827

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Twipped Jan 10, 2016

@TrejGun If the intent of your post is to shame strongloop, you really need to mention strongloop in the post, because right now it looks like you're shitting all over @dougwilson's hard work.

Most of the bulk of Express' codebase has been refactored out into external dependencies, which Doug is constantly maintaining. That is why the only commits you see are npm version bumps, because he's updating for changes in those dependencies. Express 5 will take this even further by completely removing the routing engine from express core. Look at Doug's public timeline and tell me that he isn't actively working on Express.

Doug is one of the hardest working OSS contributors in the NodeJS community. Comments such as yours not only undermine his massive efforts, but also contribute to developer burn out (which Doug has recently recovered from). You are not helping with the problem, @TrejGun, you're making it worse.

Twipped commented Jan 10, 2016

@TrejGun If the intent of your post is to shame strongloop, you really need to mention strongloop in the post, because right now it looks like you're shitting all over @dougwilson's hard work.

Most of the bulk of Express' codebase has been refactored out into external dependencies, which Doug is constantly maintaining. That is why the only commits you see are npm version bumps, because he's updating for changes in those dependencies. Express 5 will take this even further by completely removing the routing engine from express core. Look at Doug's public timeline and tell me that he isn't actively working on Express.

Doug is one of the hardest working OSS contributors in the NodeJS community. Comments such as yours not only undermine his massive efforts, but also contribute to developer burn out (which Doug has recently recovered from). You are not helping with the problem, @TrejGun, you're making it worse.

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Hi everyone, reading @TrejGun 's initial post, it doesn't sound directed to me, more directed to the project/StrongLoop/IBM. Thanks for the kind works, everyone, I really want to see the continued success of Express, but the situation of the project ownership makes this extremely difficult.

I am working with IBM to find a good path forward.

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dougwilson commented Jan 10, 2016

Hi everyone, reading @TrejGun 's initial post, it doesn't sound directed to me, more directed to the project/StrongLoop/IBM. Thanks for the kind works, everyone, I really want to see the continued success of Express, but the situation of the project ownership makes this extremely difficult.

I am working with IBM to find a good path forward.

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NetOperatorWibby Jan 10, 2016

Yikes!

Express is awesome. I don't understand why StrongLoop/IBM won't speak, that's absurd.

NetOperatorWibby commented Jan 10, 2016

Yikes!

Express is awesome. I don't understand why StrongLoop/IBM won't speak, that's absurd.

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FWIW projects don't have to change in order to be good. Nothing wrong with a project finding its place and staying relatively put. I haven't been following what's going on with Express, that might not even be the case but that's my opinion.

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tj commented Jan 10, 2016

FWIW projects don't have to change in order to be good. Nothing wrong with a project finding its place and staying relatively put. I haven't been following what's going on with Express, that might not even be the case but that's my opinion.

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mikermcneil Jan 11, 2016

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@tj hallelujah

@dougwilson thank you for taking the time to post publicly about this. You have my support, and the support of the Sails.js core maintainers regardless of what happens. I am hopeful that when the moving parts settle down, IBM will be able to help. Let me know if there's any way I can assist in the interim.

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mikermcneil commented Jan 11, 2016

@tj hallelujah

@dougwilson thank you for taking the time to post publicly about this. You have my support, and the support of the Sails.js core maintainers regardless of what happens. I am hopeful that when the moving parts settle down, IBM will be able to help. Let me know if there's any way I can assist in the interim.

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TrejGun Jan 11, 2016

@ChiperSoft don't know what you are about. there is strongloop and there is no Doug's name in the initial post.

@tj very glad to see you in this topic. the life is change. we have big upcoming es6 changes which can help reduce code and improve performance. for example #2809 is only 8 lines but i will shave of 200 lines from each of my projects

@dougwilson thanks for you answer, you just confirmed my guesses about a reason strongloop bought express. at least they don't mind if it die. sad story but not so rare. and the solution is not so rare too.

express has MIT license so anybody can fork it at any time and continue to maintain as express 2.0
what do you think about this?

TrejGun commented Jan 11, 2016

@ChiperSoft don't know what you are about. there is strongloop and there is no Doug's name in the initial post.

@tj very glad to see you in this topic. the life is change. we have big upcoming es6 changes which can help reduce code and improve performance. for example #2809 is only 8 lines but i will shave of 200 lines from each of my projects

@dougwilson thanks for you answer, you just confirmed my guesses about a reason strongloop bought express. at least they don't mind if it die. sad story but not so rare. and the solution is not so rare too.

express has MIT license so anybody can fork it at any time and continue to maintain as express 2.0
what do you think about this?

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What? Doug Wilson is doing a spectacular job of maintenance. One of the hardest working folks I've ever encountered in open source.

+1

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ritch commented Jan 11, 2016

What? Doug Wilson is doing a spectacular job of maintenance. One of the hardest working folks I've ever encountered in open source.

+1

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Hey gals and guys. Express is certainly active and poised to move even faster. I agree with concerns that @dougwilson has been unfairly carrying the project maintenance, which just isn't sustainable. I know from experience that triaging issues and working on bugs is not very exciting work. It leads to burn out fairly quickly. It just shows how dedicated @dougwilson is to this project that he has been doing it for this long and without much help.

IBM leadership has heard the call for help loud and clear and is announcing increased sponsorship of the project including two very talented IBM developers: @hacksparrow (Yaapa) and @tunniclm (Mike). Other names are likely to follow as we more clearly understand what is required and how we can assist. This means more dedicated developers on the project than ever before.

We are also looking at ways to optimize how the express and related repositories are organized to make it easier to contribute to the project by community members as individuals and in organizations (including IBM).

This will take some time to get it right and we ask for your patience. Please keep your comments and recommendations coming to ensure all points of view are considered.

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ritch commented Jan 12, 2016

Hey gals and guys. Express is certainly active and poised to move even faster. I agree with concerns that @dougwilson has been unfairly carrying the project maintenance, which just isn't sustainable. I know from experience that triaging issues and working on bugs is not very exciting work. It leads to burn out fairly quickly. It just shows how dedicated @dougwilson is to this project that he has been doing it for this long and without much help.

IBM leadership has heard the call for help loud and clear and is announcing increased sponsorship of the project including two very talented IBM developers: @hacksparrow (Yaapa) and @tunniclm (Mike). Other names are likely to follow as we more clearly understand what is required and how we can assist. This means more dedicated developers on the project than ever before.

We are also looking at ways to optimize how the express and related repositories are organized to make it easier to contribute to the project by community members as individuals and in organizations (including IBM).

This will take some time to get it right and we ask for your patience. Please keep your comments and recommendations coming to ensure all points of view are considered.

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I'd love to start contributing to Express but I'm not quite sure where to start. Are there issues I can pick up?

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EvanHahn commented Jan 13, 2016

I'd love to start contributing to Express but I'm not quite sure where to start. Are there issues I can pick up?

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You could take a look at the list of help wanted issues if you are looking for some issues to dig into.

The project needs the most help right now triaging issues on github (determining if bugs are bugs, pointing people to existing answers to questions, etc). Also idling and answering questions in gitter would be a huge help to the project.

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ritch commented Jan 13, 2016

You could take a look at the list of help wanted issues if you are looking for some issues to dig into.

The project needs the most help right now triaging issues on github (determining if bugs are bugs, pointing people to existing answers to questions, etc). Also idling and answering questions in gitter would be a huge help to the project.

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@ritch Is gitter used more often than irc? I've have never used gitter before and can't seem to find a room for express even.

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jordonias commented Jan 13, 2016

@ritch Is gitter used more often than irc? I've have never used gitter before and can't seem to find a room for express even.

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@jordonias Not sure about usage, but here's a link to the Gitter site.

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EvanHahn commented Jan 13, 2016

@jordonias Not sure about usage, but here's a link to the Gitter site.

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Thanks @EvanHahn. Not sure why I wasn't able to find it, I searched for express and strongloop/express, maybe this should be in Readme.md

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jordonias commented Jan 13, 2016

Thanks @EvanHahn. Not sure why I wasn't able to find it, I searched for express and strongloop/express, maybe this should be in Readme.md

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I think this issue can be closed (I cannot actually close it). I have removed myself from the SrongLoop organization on GitHub and so no longer can manage issues or commit code.

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dougwilson commented Jan 13, 2016

I think this issue can be closed (I cannot actually close it). I have removed myself from the SrongLoop organization on GitHub and so no longer can manage issues or commit code.

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maybe this should be in Readme.md

@jordonias Good suggestion. PR?

FYI, the Gitter channel is noted in http://expressjs.com/en/resources/community.html.

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crandmck commented Jan 13, 2016

maybe this should be in Readme.md

@jordonias Good suggestion. PR?

FYI, the Gitter channel is noted in http://expressjs.com/en/resources/community.html.

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Re: is express dying?

I would say that no, not particularly, as Express has it's spot in the ecosystem that is well-established.

And remember, I will be helping with Express, mainly with questions from IBM employees rather than direct actions in this repository. Please welcome in @hacksparrow , @crandmck , and @tunniclm to the main repository!

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dougwilson commented Jan 13, 2016

Re: is express dying?

I would say that no, not particularly, as Express has it's spot in the ecosystem that is well-established.

And remember, I will be helping with Express, mainly with questions from IBM employees rather than direct actions in this repository. Please welcome in @hacksparrow , @crandmck , and @tunniclm to the main repository!

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Twipped Jan 13, 2016

@dougwilson are you moving on to PillarJS full swing, or is this something else entirely?

Twipped commented Jan 13, 2016

@dougwilson are you moving on to PillarJS full swing, or is this something else entirely?

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rmg Jan 13, 2016

@dougwilson you should probably add some people to the express module as maintainers.. at the moment you are the only one who can actually publish a release of express.

rmg commented Jan 13, 2016

@dougwilson you should probably add some people to the express module as maintainers.. at the moment you are the only one who can actually publish a release of express.

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Hi @ChiperSoft , both, basically. Some of the things outlined are conceptually above the pillarjs level of separation. As I have been working on on trying to get HTTP/2 into Express, I have found it's probably not very doable because of how Express is done (since it's critically coupled with the Node.js built-in http module). It was probably inevitable that this would have resulted in a new framework anyway.

As I have been maintaining Express, my # 1 priority has been backwards-compatibility and not disrupting the entire ecosystem. There is nothing with this Express as-is in general, so if getting good HTTP/2 and Promises into Express results in a massive change for the community, it should just be a different framework anyway, .i.m.o. (similar to the Express/Koa split, really).

Hi @rmg , these kinds of details are being discussed in meetings with IBM. You're welcome to join if you speak with Jason from IBM or whoever is going to be scheduling them (I don't have insight into this).

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dougwilson commented Jan 14, 2016

Hi @ChiperSoft , both, basically. Some of the things outlined are conceptually above the pillarjs level of separation. As I have been working on on trying to get HTTP/2 into Express, I have found it's probably not very doable because of how Express is done (since it's critically coupled with the Node.js built-in http module). It was probably inevitable that this would have resulted in a new framework anyway.

As I have been maintaining Express, my # 1 priority has been backwards-compatibility and not disrupting the entire ecosystem. There is nothing with this Express as-is in general, so if getting good HTTP/2 and Promises into Express results in a massive change for the community, it should just be a different framework anyway, .i.m.o. (similar to the Express/Koa split, really).

Hi @rmg , these kinds of details are being discussed in meetings with IBM. You're welcome to join if you speak with Jason from IBM or whoever is going to be scheduling them (I don't have insight into this).

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@dougwilson I imagine npm owner add strongloop express would be a reasonable default action since the world was convinced a while ago that that was the case anyway.

Wouldn't that be better than leaving the project in a situation where the only person who can publish release has voluntarily given up their ability to tag releases.

rmg commented Jan 14, 2016

@dougwilson I imagine npm owner add strongloop express would be a reasonable default action since the world was convinced a while ago that that was the case anyway.

Wouldn't that be better than leaving the project in a situation where the only person who can publish release has voluntarily given up their ability to tag releases.

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Hi @rmg , I am working with IBM employees regarding this.

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dougwilson commented Jan 14, 2016

Hi @rmg , I am working with IBM employees regarding this.

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rmg Jan 14, 2016

@dougwilson I'm sorry that I've upset you and failed to account for the privilege granted to me by being a StrongLoop/IBM employee. My statements here have been as a concerned Express user and nothing more, but I should have done better.


Just to wrap up my portion of this public thread, as an individual express user without any involvement in the IBM side of any discussions, my concern is:

#2844 (comment)

I have removed myself from the SrongLoop organization on GitHub and so no longer can manage issues or commit code.

$ npm owner ls express
dougwilson <...>

=

What happens if something critical comes up before the situation is resolved?


I will now proceed through IBM channels to get involved and offer whatever help I can.

rmg commented Jan 14, 2016

@dougwilson I'm sorry that I've upset you and failed to account for the privilege granted to me by being a StrongLoop/IBM employee. My statements here have been as a concerned Express user and nothing more, but I should have done better.


Just to wrap up my portion of this public thread, as an individual express user without any involvement in the IBM side of any discussions, my concern is:

#2844 (comment)

I have removed myself from the SrongLoop organization on GitHub and so no longer can manage issues or commit code.

$ npm owner ls express
dougwilson <...>

=

What happens if something critical comes up before the situation is resolved?


I will now proceed through IBM channels to get involved and offer whatever help I can.

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I'd love to start contributing to Express but I'm not quite sure where to start. Are there issues I can pick up?

@EvanHahn I am also starting out with Express, I'd be happy to share in the process with you. I've been hanging out on gitter and IRC in the last few days getting up to speed.

IBM leadership has heard the call for help loud and clear and is announcing increased sponsorship of the project

As @ritch mentioned I have started working with Express and looking at the issues and pull requests that need addressing and generally trying to improve the project. @dougwilson has been a great help in understanding the current status of the project, I was looking forward to working more closely with him, and I remain hopeful that there is a path forward to achieving that.

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tunniclm commented Jan 14, 2016

I'd love to start contributing to Express but I'm not quite sure where to start. Are there issues I can pick up?

@EvanHahn I am also starting out with Express, I'd be happy to share in the process with you. I've been hanging out on gitter and IRC in the last few days getting up to speed.

IBM leadership has heard the call for help loud and clear and is announcing increased sponsorship of the project

As @ritch mentioned I have started working with Express and looking at the issues and pull requests that need addressing and generally trying to improve the project. @dougwilson has been a great help in understanding the current status of the project, I was looking forward to working more closely with him, and I remain hopeful that there is a path forward to achieving that.

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I did not voluntarily give up on Express, IBM forced me out.

@dougwilson - IBM has no intention of forcing anyone off the project. Especially someone that has helped keep the project in such good shape. To be clear, we not only want you involved, we want you to be able to focus on leading the project. And like I said on the phone, I think it would be bad for the project if you left.

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ritch commented Jan 14, 2016

I did not voluntarily give up on Express, IBM forced me out.

@dougwilson - IBM has no intention of forcing anyone off the project. Especially someone that has helped keep the project in such good shape. To be clear, we not only want you involved, we want you to be able to focus on leading the project. And like I said on the phone, I think it would be bad for the project if you left.

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jasnell Jan 14, 2016

+1 on what @ritch is saying here. all of the conversations we've had around express internal to IBM have been focused on growing community involvement and on finding ways of supporting the existing project leadership. This idea that anyone could have been forced off the project is rather shocking and surprising to me as it runs completely counter to how we approach open source. It definitely does appear that some kind of miscommunication has occurred.

@dougwilson, the last conversation I was aware of took place around mid December when you indicated that you would be voluntarily withdrawing from the Strongloop Github organization at the end of the year. As part of that conversation, IBM/StrongLoop committed that we would take a good look at how the repositories are currently organized in order to best support the project. However, given that the conversation came up right before the holidays (when many of us were either on or getting ready to go on vacation) and given that many of us on the IBM side are still ramping up on express, no decision was made one way or the other and we simply asked for a bit more time to figure out the approach that made the most sense. I'm rather befuddled to understand how us asking for that time time could be interpreted as "pushing" anyone out of the project -- but then again, I might be missing something.

I do understand that there may be a history here, and that these questions and frustrations may have been building for some time, but please keep in mind that for many of us on the IBM side, much of this is new and we've only just started to ramp up. Let's definitely keep chatting and working through the issue, but I ask you please do not feel that your contributions and participation are unwelcome in any way -- quite the contrary in fact. Express would not be where it is today if it were not for your contributions and leadership -- the entire community of express users (StrongLoop and IBM included) certainly owes you no small amount of gratitude for that.

Please feel free to reach out if you'd like to discuss further. I'm particularly interested in how we can grow the base of expressjs contributors to best support the project going forward.

jasnell commented Jan 14, 2016

+1 on what @ritch is saying here. all of the conversations we've had around express internal to IBM have been focused on growing community involvement and on finding ways of supporting the existing project leadership. This idea that anyone could have been forced off the project is rather shocking and surprising to me as it runs completely counter to how we approach open source. It definitely does appear that some kind of miscommunication has occurred.

@dougwilson, the last conversation I was aware of took place around mid December when you indicated that you would be voluntarily withdrawing from the Strongloop Github organization at the end of the year. As part of that conversation, IBM/StrongLoop committed that we would take a good look at how the repositories are currently organized in order to best support the project. However, given that the conversation came up right before the holidays (when many of us were either on or getting ready to go on vacation) and given that many of us on the IBM side are still ramping up on express, no decision was made one way or the other and we simply asked for a bit more time to figure out the approach that made the most sense. I'm rather befuddled to understand how us asking for that time time could be interpreted as "pushing" anyone out of the project -- but then again, I might be missing something.

I do understand that there may be a history here, and that these questions and frustrations may have been building for some time, but please keep in mind that for many of us on the IBM side, much of this is new and we've only just started to ramp up. Let's definitely keep chatting and working through the issue, but I ask you please do not feel that your contributions and participation are unwelcome in any way -- quite the contrary in fact. Express would not be where it is today if it were not for your contributions and leadership -- the entire community of express users (StrongLoop and IBM included) certainly owes you no small amount of gratitude for that.

Please feel free to reach out if you'd like to discuss further. I'm particularly interested in how we can grow the base of expressjs contributors to best support the project going forward.

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bjrmatos Jan 14, 2016

hi! a happy express user here.. dear IBM/Strongloop folks, please, please don't let @dougwilson leave the project, i think that everyone can agree that no one wants that to happen.

are there any cons to move the express project under the expressjs org? why not everyone contribute to the project behind a public org (like nodejs)? please do not let such issues overshadow the project.

bjrmatos commented Jan 14, 2016

hi! a happy express user here.. dear IBM/Strongloop folks, please, please don't let @dougwilson leave the project, i think that everyone can agree that no one wants that to happen.

are there any cons to move the express project under the expressjs org? why not everyone contribute to the project behind a public org (like nodejs)? please do not let such issues overshadow the project.

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jasnell Jan 14, 2016

@bjrmatos: to be certain, while I personally would prefer him to stay on with the project, whether or not @dougwilson continues contributing to express is entirely up to him to decide. That said, however, the question over what ultimately happens with the project repos and overall governance is an orthogonal issue that is being actively discussed and will ultimately get settled out based on whatever is best for the community and users. It's unfortunate that there appears to have been some misunderstandings (on both sides) but what Doug ultimately decides to do is not the sole factor in making that decision.

jasnell commented Jan 14, 2016

@bjrmatos: to be certain, while I personally would prefer him to stay on with the project, whether or not @dougwilson continues contributing to express is entirely up to him to decide. That said, however, the question over what ultimately happens with the project repos and overall governance is an orthogonal issue that is being actively discussed and will ultimately get settled out based on whatever is best for the community and users. It's unfortunate that there appears to have been some misunderstandings (on both sides) but what Doug ultimately decides to do is not the sole factor in making that decision.

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bjrmatos Jan 14, 2016

what ultimately happens with the project repos and overall governance is an orthogonal issue that is being actively discussed and will ultimately get settled out based on whatever is best for the community and users.

i think that everyone of us (the users) will gain more if the project is behind the expressjs org, retrieving back all the contributors that left the project when it was moved to Strongloop (you know, that move generate a lot of discomfort at that time), having doug and ibm collaborators work in the project will be a big win for us, so the only issue i see is the decision of where the project lives..

thnks for listening to me.

bjrmatos commented Jan 14, 2016

what ultimately happens with the project repos and overall governance is an orthogonal issue that is being actively discussed and will ultimately get settled out based on whatever is best for the community and users.

i think that everyone of us (the users) will gain more if the project is behind the expressjs org, retrieving back all the contributors that left the project when it was moved to Strongloop (you know, that move generate a lot of discomfort at that time), having doug and ibm collaborators work in the project will be a big win for us, so the only issue i see is the decision of where the project lives..

thnks for listening to me.

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i think that everyone of us (the users) will gain more if the project is behind the expressjs org

+1

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jordonias commented Jan 14, 2016

i think that everyone of us (the users) will gain more if the project is behind the expressjs org

+1

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jasnell Jan 14, 2016

@bjrmatos @jordonias ... I definitely don't disagree. Open governance is the right approach it just needs to be done right and not be rushed. It is definitely good to hear from users on the matter so thank you very much for the comments :-)

jasnell commented Jan 14, 2016

@bjrmatos @jordonias ... I definitely don't disagree. Open governance is the right approach it just needs to be done right and not be rushed. It is definitely good to hear from users on the matter so thank you very much for the comments :-)

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bjrmatos Jan 14, 2016

i hope that any misunderstanding can be cleared and have IBM and doug working together in express!

bjrmatos commented Jan 14, 2016

i hope that any misunderstanding can be cleared and have IBM and doug working together in express!

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that is being actively discussed and will ultimately get settled out based on whatever is best for the community and users

If it is truly being discussed, the fact that I have not heard of such discussion, been involved, or even invited to, is just another big reason I am just turned off from the entire StrongLoop/IBM thing. Clearly I am not important to this project from IBM's point of view to be involved in such an important decision.

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dougwilson commented Jan 14, 2016

that is being actively discussed and will ultimately get settled out based on whatever is best for the community and users

If it is truly being discussed, the fact that I have not heard of such discussion, been involved, or even invited to, is just another big reason I am just turned off from the entire StrongLoop/IBM thing. Clearly I am not important to this project from IBM's point of view to be involved in such an important decision.

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jasnell Jan 22, 2016

@dougwilson ... I asked for more time today because when you asked I was in the middle of a Node.js TSC call, after which I had to jump onto another call, after which I had to pick the kids up from school and drive the 45 miles home. I just walked in the door and a was getting ready to write up an email. I understand that you're frustrated, but please understand that some delays are simply logistical in nature and have absolutely nothing to do with trying to cheat anyone out of anything. We're all very busy people.

To shed a bit more light on it... this week @ritch and I have been having an internal discussion simply to make sure that all of the stakeholders within IBM were on the same page -- which, quite frankly is a fundamental business reality that I'm sure you can understand. The conversation has not been about making all of the decisions and foisting a decision upon you and the world.

Anyway, like I said, I need to go write up an email. I'll be cc'ing you and a number of other members of the express technical community and will be explicitly asking for your input. One thing that should be clear from the note is that none of the decisions have been made. It is a proposal for a way of moving forward that I think addresses the concerns of everyone who has posted in this discussion and others but that's just my opinion. This absolutely needs to be a collaborative process and we absolutely want your help in moving it forward.

jasnell commented Jan 22, 2016

@dougwilson ... I asked for more time today because when you asked I was in the middle of a Node.js TSC call, after which I had to jump onto another call, after which I had to pick the kids up from school and drive the 45 miles home. I just walked in the door and a was getting ready to write up an email. I understand that you're frustrated, but please understand that some delays are simply logistical in nature and have absolutely nothing to do with trying to cheat anyone out of anything. We're all very busy people.

To shed a bit more light on it... this week @ritch and I have been having an internal discussion simply to make sure that all of the stakeholders within IBM were on the same page -- which, quite frankly is a fundamental business reality that I'm sure you can understand. The conversation has not been about making all of the decisions and foisting a decision upon you and the world.

Anyway, like I said, I need to go write up an email. I'll be cc'ing you and a number of other members of the express technical community and will be explicitly asking for your input. One thing that should be clear from the note is that none of the decisions have been made. It is a proposal for a way of moving forward that I think addresses the concerns of everyone who has posted in this discussion and others but that's just my opinion. This absolutely needs to be a collaborative process and we absolutely want your help in moving it forward.

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I asked for more time today

When did you do that? I pasted the exact conversation as as far as I know, you were presenting the proposal to execs tonight. You never said that was moved back. When you then said you would share the proposal with me tomorrow, what else was I supposed to think?

and a number of other members of the express technical community

Who are these people? When did express have a technical community? This is all new to me...

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dougwilson commented Jan 22, 2016

I asked for more time today

When did you do that? I pasted the exact conversation as as far as I know, you were presenting the proposal to execs tonight. You never said that was moved back. When you then said you would share the proposal with me tomorrow, what else was I supposed to think?

and a number of other members of the express technical community

Who are these people? When did express have a technical community? This is all new to me...

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jasnell Jan 22, 2016

Email sent. For everyone else on this thread: the email I just sent was copied to a number of folks who have been involved with express for quite some time and who are active in some of the other repositories around express (pillarjs, jshttp, etc). It's really just a heads up for a github issue that I'll be opening tomorrow asking for community input on helping to craft a governance model for express moving forward. I wanted to make sure @dougwilson and a few others had a chance to review the thoughts before opening it up to broader discussion.

jasnell commented Jan 22, 2016

Email sent. For everyone else on this thread: the email I just sent was copied to a number of folks who have been involved with express for quite some time and who are active in some of the other repositories around express (pillarjs, jshttp, etc). It's really just a heads up for a github issue that I'll be opening tomorrow asking for community input on helping to craft a governance model for express moving forward. I wanted to make sure @dougwilson and a few others had a chance to review the thoughts before opening it up to broader discussion.

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To be absolutely clear, the "proposal" is to collaboratively craft an open governance plan for express by forming an autonomous Technical Committee made up of members of the broader community. Doug responded immediately saying that he did not wish to participate in that conversation or participate in such a TC, obstensibly because he no longer wishes to contribute to the project (based on his public comments here).

We do intend to move forward with having that conversation and invite the members of the broader express community to help. I'll be posting a new github issue in the morning to kick that off.

jasnell commented Jan 22, 2016

To be absolutely clear, the "proposal" is to collaboratively craft an open governance plan for express by forming an autonomous Technical Committee made up of members of the broader community. Doug responded immediately saying that he did not wish to participate in that conversation or participate in such a TC, obstensibly because he no longer wishes to contribute to the project (based on his public comments here).

We do intend to move forward with having that conversation and invite the members of the broader express community to help. I'll be posting a new github issue in the morning to kick that off.

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jfathman Jan 22, 2016

As an outside observer with no skin in the game other than being a Node fan, it appears to me that IBM, who only acquired StrongLoop four months ago, is being responsive and acting in good faith. Couldn't hurt to give it some time and see what happens. It could turn out well. I have to think IBM is more concerned with community sentiment than putting another title in the vault. If anything, I would say don't rush it. Better to get it right.

jfathman commented Jan 22, 2016

As an outside observer with no skin in the game other than being a Node fan, it appears to me that IBM, who only acquired StrongLoop four months ago, is being responsive and acting in good faith. Couldn't hurt to give it some time and see what happens. It could turn out well. I have to think IBM is more concerned with community sentiment than putting another title in the vault. If anything, I would say don't rush it. Better to get it right.

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@dougwilson For what ever it is worth, as an express user and sometimes (small) contributor, all the people I have discussed this with have your back. We just had the node meetup last night in Austin and talked about it a bit. Nothing but good things were said about your leadership of this project and community.

While it would be a shame to loose the IP/Branding around the name express, in the long run what you are doing with jshttp/pillarjs is going to have a much stronger impact on the community as a whole, mainly because it effects more than just express.

I hope this didn't just add to the noise, but shows that what you are doing for the community extends beyond express and this issue, AND WE ALL SUPPORT YOU. So keep up the good work!

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wesleytodd commented Jan 22, 2016

@dougwilson For what ever it is worth, as an express user and sometimes (small) contributor, all the people I have discussed this with have your back. We just had the node meetup last night in Austin and talked about it a bit. Nothing but good things were said about your leadership of this project and community.

While it would be a shame to loose the IP/Branding around the name express, in the long run what you are doing with jshttp/pillarjs is going to have a much stronger impact on the community as a whole, mainly because it effects more than just express.

I hope this didn't just add to the noise, but shows that what you are doing for the community extends beyond express and this issue, AND WE ALL SUPPORT YOU. So keep up the good work!

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jasnell Jan 22, 2016

Ok, just an update on things. We've been continuing to ask for and receive community feedback on the course of action here and want to make sure that we're giving everyone enough time to think about what the necessary steps are. To that end, I'm going to hold off opening the new discussion issue I mentioned here.

jasnell commented Jan 22, 2016

Ok, just an update on things. We've been continuing to ask for and receive community feedback on the course of action here and want to make sure that we're giving everyone enough time to think about what the necessary steps are. To that end, I'm going to hold off opening the new discussion issue I mentioned here.

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pwlin Jan 22, 2016

We've been continuing to ask for and receive community feedback on the course of action here and want to make sure that we're giving everyone enough time to think about what the necessary steps are. To that end, I'm going to hold off opening the new discussion issue I mentioned here.

Translation: we just realized we're no more than one shitstorm away from losing the control of this situation and making it completely FUBAR. As Express community members are starting to rally behind their prominent leaders, it became obvious to us that our planned "community discussion" will backfire catastrophically. So we're going to hang around, test the waters, and buy even more time for our alien overloads.

pwlin commented Jan 22, 2016

We've been continuing to ask for and receive community feedback on the course of action here and want to make sure that we're giving everyone enough time to think about what the necessary steps are. To that end, I'm going to hold off opening the new discussion issue I mentioned here.

Translation: we just realized we're no more than one shitstorm away from losing the control of this situation and making it completely FUBAR. As Express community members are starting to rally behind their prominent leaders, it became obvious to us that our planned "community discussion" will backfire catastrophically. So we're going to hang around, test the waters, and buy even more time for our alien overloads.

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FWIW, I think we should refrain from comments like that @pwlin. They are neither constructive or fair to the team at StrongLoop/IBM. They are just trying to do their best to come up with a solution that makes everyone happy. I personally would rather them wait a bit to see how it shakes out before making decisions. I am not chomping at the bit to update to Express 5, so it is better to move ahead in the right direction slowly than in the wrong direction quickly.

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wesleytodd commented Jan 22, 2016

FWIW, I think we should refrain from comments like that @pwlin. They are neither constructive or fair to the team at StrongLoop/IBM. They are just trying to do their best to come up with a solution that makes everyone happy. I personally would rather them wait a bit to see how it shakes out before making decisions. I am not chomping at the bit to update to Express 5, so it is better to move ahead in the right direction slowly than in the wrong direction quickly.

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pwlin Jan 22, 2016

Hi @wesleytodd well sorry for shattering a couple of bubbles around. I am not part of any "organization" and don't need to fear any reprisal from either my employer, my organization bosses, or a corporation. Sometimes telling it exactly like how it is would be much more constructive than trying to sound like a politician and hoping to keep both sides happy.

pwlin commented Jan 22, 2016

Hi @wesleytodd well sorry for shattering a couple of bubbles around. I am not part of any "organization" and don't need to fear any reprisal from either my employer, my organization bosses, or a corporation. Sometimes telling it exactly like how it is would be much more constructive than trying to sound like a politician and hoping to keep both sides happy.

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tlivings Jan 23, 2016

@jasnell is the position of StrongLoop/IBM that returning express to the control of the community is not an option? If so, why? From your comments above, it sounds very much like StrongLoop/IBM want to provide a platform for the community to have a voice, but retain ownership. This isn't necessarily in the best interests of the community, particularly the "enterprise" community, which has legitimate concerns over ownership of the project.

tlivings commented Jan 23, 2016

@jasnell is the position of StrongLoop/IBM that returning express to the control of the community is not an option? If so, why? From your comments above, it sounds very much like StrongLoop/IBM want to provide a platform for the community to have a voice, but retain ownership. This isn't necessarily in the best interests of the community, particularly the "enterprise" community, which has legitimate concerns over ownership of the project.

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RnbWd Jan 23, 2016

I regret saying anything in this conversation... Im just a random person whose used express for a few years, and I participated in some of the discussions when io.js forked. I even watched a few live streams... with two other people. It felt like less than a % of nodejs communjty participated in the iojs discussions. So I'd take everything said in this thread with a grain of a salt, including what I'm about to say:

I honestly don't care who maintains the project, but Express is the most important library in the nodejs ecosystem, so I hope this is handled proper without much drama. That's it. I still consider it @tj's baby.

RnbWd commented Jan 23, 2016

I regret saying anything in this conversation... Im just a random person whose used express for a few years, and I participated in some of the discussions when io.js forked. I even watched a few live streams... with two other people. It felt like less than a % of nodejs communjty participated in the iojs discussions. So I'd take everything said in this thread with a grain of a salt, including what I'm about to say:

I honestly don't care who maintains the project, but Express is the most important library in the nodejs ecosystem, so I hope this is handled proper without much drama. That's it. I still consider it @tj's baby.

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windmaomao Jan 23, 2016

the first time i noticed IBM came to this picture, and advertising for strongloop, it gave me a strong feeling that it's time to move on. I have worked with IBM people in the past, there's nothing "open" in this company's culture, no offense, you do not have to be good at this for a company, especially this big. But when it comes to "open source", this is not IBM's thing. This could be Google's thing, even Walmart's, but not IBM's. Just my two cents.

windmaomao commented Jan 23, 2016

the first time i noticed IBM came to this picture, and advertising for strongloop, it gave me a strong feeling that it's time to move on. I have worked with IBM people in the past, there's nothing "open" in this company's culture, no offense, you do not have to be good at this for a company, especially this big. But when it comes to "open source", this is not IBM's thing. This could be Google's thing, even Walmart's, but not IBM's. Just my two cents.

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jfathman Jan 23, 2016

I remember how IBM shocked industry by switching to Linux in 2000 and investing $1B in Linux development. If you Google search for "IBM open source", you will find IBM is very active contributing to open source, and has been for many years. From a 2015 press release, "Currently, IBM participates in and contributes to more than 150 open source projects. These projects include Spark, OpenStack, Cloud Foundry, Open Contain Project, Node.js, CouchDb, Linux, Eclipse and an already established relationship with Apache."

I remember my disbelief when Walmart turned out to be a significant contributor to Node.js, both Hapi technology and success stories. I think we are all still surprised that Microsoft is acting like a good citizen in Node.js, including open sourcing the ChakraCore engine.

I imagine open source values were foreign to Fortune 500 decision makers twenty years ago, but consider this. Most of the technology middle managers at these companies today with ten to fifteen years experience grew up with open source. It was probably a revolution from within.

It is perhaps not all altruistic. I suspect some of the motivation comes from IBM and Microsoft trying to return to relevance in a changing world where developers have moved away from expensive, proprietary, subscription development tools. Revenue is one measure of success, and essential, but the new prime metric seems to be "developer mindshare". If the top technology companies want to fall all over each other to give me high quality free software, so they can count me among the throng that puts their sticker on my computer, it works for me.

Open source was a grass roots revolution. But revolutions, if successful, become the new establishment. Open source may be entering its establishment phase, and that is going to have a different look and feel.

jfathman commented Jan 23, 2016

I remember how IBM shocked industry by switching to Linux in 2000 and investing $1B in Linux development. If you Google search for "IBM open source", you will find IBM is very active contributing to open source, and has been for many years. From a 2015 press release, "Currently, IBM participates in and contributes to more than 150 open source projects. These projects include Spark, OpenStack, Cloud Foundry, Open Contain Project, Node.js, CouchDb, Linux, Eclipse and an already established relationship with Apache."

I remember my disbelief when Walmart turned out to be a significant contributor to Node.js, both Hapi technology and success stories. I think we are all still surprised that Microsoft is acting like a good citizen in Node.js, including open sourcing the ChakraCore engine.

I imagine open source values were foreign to Fortune 500 decision makers twenty years ago, but consider this. Most of the technology middle managers at these companies today with ten to fifteen years experience grew up with open source. It was probably a revolution from within.

It is perhaps not all altruistic. I suspect some of the motivation comes from IBM and Microsoft trying to return to relevance in a changing world where developers have moved away from expensive, proprietary, subscription development tools. Revenue is one measure of success, and essential, but the new prime metric seems to be "developer mindshare". If the top technology companies want to fall all over each other to give me high quality free software, so they can count me among the throng that puts their sticker on my computer, it works for me.

Open source was a grass roots revolution. But revolutions, if successful, become the new establishment. Open source may be entering its establishment phase, and that is going to have a different look and feel.

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windmaomao Jan 23, 2016

fork can not be as bad as not working on it at all. Why not putting community thing still in the fork, and let IBM do whatever they want.

the upside we can have another interesting name, ex. aexpress etc.

windmaomao commented Jan 23, 2016

fork can not be as bad as not working on it at all. Why not putting community thing still in the fork, and let IBM do whatever they want.

the upside we can have another interesting name, ex. aexpress etc.

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jasnell Jan 23, 2016

@tlivings: it is our position that there are several steps to this process and we're still discovering what those are. The community already has a voice (it doesn't need us to establish a platform for that voice). What we (IBM) need to do is keep listening to that voice and work with and within the community to identify the governance model that makes sense. Doing so will make it possible to grow the base of contributors so express can thrive and grow. Nothing else beyond that has been settled at all and all options are on the table. Continued feedback from the community is something we are actively seeking to help inform and guide the discussion. For the time being, tho, I'm heading off to Lowe's to pick up paint and a power sander so I can finish building my kid's furniture. I'll follow up more on this on Monday.

jasnell commented Jan 23, 2016

@tlivings: it is our position that there are several steps to this process and we're still discovering what those are. The community already has a voice (it doesn't need us to establish a platform for that voice). What we (IBM) need to do is keep listening to that voice and work with and within the community to identify the governance model that makes sense. Doing so will make it possible to grow the base of contributors so express can thrive and grow. Nothing else beyond that has been settled at all and all options are on the table. Continued feedback from the community is something we are actively seeking to help inform and guide the discussion. For the time being, tho, I'm heading off to Lowe's to pick up paint and a power sander so I can finish building my kid's furniture. I'll follow up more on this on Monday.

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arackaf Jan 25, 2016

@jasnell

Continued feedback from the community is something we are actively seeking to help inform and guide the discussion

I think the community has voiced its view pretty clearly: return Express back to the community. I know corporations like IBM aren't known for moving too .... quickly. But I really hope they don't screw this up. Express is one of the more successful OSS projects and I'd hate to see it destroyed by lethargic corporate arrogance.

Please find a solution that involves returning control of the repo to the community, and please find it quickly.

arackaf commented Jan 25, 2016

@jasnell

Continued feedback from the community is something we are actively seeking to help inform and guide the discussion

I think the community has voiced its view pretty clearly: return Express back to the community. I know corporations like IBM aren't known for moving too .... quickly. But I really hope they don't screw this up. Express is one of the more successful OSS projects and I'd hate to see it destroyed by lethargic corporate arrogance.

Please find a solution that involves returning control of the repo to the community, and please find it quickly.

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RnbWd Jan 26, 2016

When io.js was discussing the node foundation merge - threads were filled with individuals with an anti corporate stance. Eg: 'Microsoft will kill node, they don't even use JavaScript why should we trust them?' - well I live in Seattle and know people who work there... the anti-corporate rhetoric isn't based in fact - it's principle. Open source values are antithetical to corporate values. Open source is like a gifting economy - similar to burning burning man where you give and expect nothing in return. Another principle is radical inclusion - but that doesn't mean you have a right to run the theme camp. There are lots of logistics involved and things get complicated (plus the tech community is ubiquitous at the event, from CEOs to entry level devs)

Express is not 'owned by the community - people with the loudest voice don't represent a majority either. Express was a gift given to us by @tj who transferred responsibility - but it doesn't change anything. Even though it's open source, the community doesn't have an inherent right to demand control over IBM - who is perfectly capable of maintaining express want to see community involvement. If they stop accepting pull requests like what Joyent did.... I think that would justify a community takeover. But we should give them a chance before coming to conclusions based on their past (it's a pretty big company FYI).

In the meantime... if a similar project with open governance and no corporate involvement took off - I'd use that over express without question. It's like comparing Debian vs Ubuntu vs LibreLinux vs Fedora etc. etc. - if you want open governance - FORK IT - and I'll support the project. It's healthy for the ecosystem.

RnbWd commented Jan 26, 2016

When io.js was discussing the node foundation merge - threads were filled with individuals with an anti corporate stance. Eg: 'Microsoft will kill node, they don't even use JavaScript why should we trust them?' - well I live in Seattle and know people who work there... the anti-corporate rhetoric isn't based in fact - it's principle. Open source values are antithetical to corporate values. Open source is like a gifting economy - similar to burning burning man where you give and expect nothing in return. Another principle is radical inclusion - but that doesn't mean you have a right to run the theme camp. There are lots of logistics involved and things get complicated (plus the tech community is ubiquitous at the event, from CEOs to entry level devs)

Express is not 'owned by the community - people with the loudest voice don't represent a majority either. Express was a gift given to us by @tj who transferred responsibility - but it doesn't change anything. Even though it's open source, the community doesn't have an inherent right to demand control over IBM - who is perfectly capable of maintaining express want to see community involvement. If they stop accepting pull requests like what Joyent did.... I think that would justify a community takeover. But we should give them a chance before coming to conclusions based on their past (it's a pretty big company FYI).

In the meantime... if a similar project with open governance and no corporate involvement took off - I'd use that over express without question. It's like comparing Debian vs Ubuntu vs LibreLinux vs Fedora etc. etc. - if you want open governance - FORK IT - and I'll support the project. It's healthy for the ecosystem.

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jasnell Jan 26, 2016

All, to be certain, we do have a plan that is being discussed with Doug and
a few others. Not all of the details are hammered out yet so we are working
through them a bit before we post the details. I believe we are moving
towards something that the community can embrace but I promise that we'll
post something here to the repo to get the community feedback on it very
soon. I just want to thank you all for the support you've shown to Doug and
to the project, he's done an amazing job developing and maintaining express.
On Jan 26, 2016 2:16 AM, "David Wisner" notifications@github.com wrote:

When io.js was discussing the node foundation merge - threads were filled
with individuals with an anti corporate stance. Eg: 'Microsoft will kill
node, they don't even use JavaScript why should we trust them?' - well I
live in Seattle and know people who work there... the anti-corporate
rhetoric isn't based in fact - it's principle. Open source values are
antithetical to corporate values. Open source is a gifting economy like
burning man - you give and expect nothing in return. Another principle is
radical inclusion - but in reality there are logistics in designing theme
camps. CEO's and lots of people in the corporate tech world attend the
event as well, and they do contribute.

Express is not 'owned by the communjty' - people with the loudest voice
don't represent a majority. Express was a gift given to us by @tj
https://github.com/tj who transferred responsibility - but it doesn't
change anything. The community has no right demand control of a project
like this - IBM is perfectly capable of maintaining express wants to see
community involvement. If they stop accepting pull requests does what
Joyent did - I think that would justify a community takeover, but we should
give them a chance.

In the meantime... if a similar project with open governance and no
corporate involvement took off - I'd use that over express without
question. It's like Debian vs Ubuntu vs LibreLinux vs Fedora etc. etc. - if
you want open governance - FORK IT - and I'll support the project. It's
healthy for the ecosystem.


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#2844 (comment)
.

jasnell commented Jan 26, 2016

All, to be certain, we do have a plan that is being discussed with Doug and
a few others. Not all of the details are hammered out yet so we are working
through them a bit before we post the details. I believe we are moving
towards something that the community can embrace but I promise that we'll
post something here to the repo to get the community feedback on it very
soon. I just want to thank you all for the support you've shown to Doug and
to the project, he's done an amazing job developing and maintaining express.
On Jan 26, 2016 2:16 AM, "David Wisner" notifications@github.com wrote:

When io.js was discussing the node foundation merge - threads were filled
with individuals with an anti corporate stance. Eg: 'Microsoft will kill
node, they don't even use JavaScript why should we trust them?' - well I
live in Seattle and know people who work there... the anti-corporate
rhetoric isn't based in fact - it's principle. Open source values are
antithetical to corporate values. Open source is a gifting economy like
burning man - you give and expect nothing in return. Another principle is
radical inclusion - but in reality there are logistics in designing theme
camps. CEO's and lots of people in the corporate tech world attend the
event as well, and they do contribute.

Express is not 'owned by the communjty' - people with the loudest voice
don't represent a majority. Express was a gift given to us by @tj
https://github.com/tj who transferred responsibility - but it doesn't
change anything. The community has no right demand control of a project
like this - IBM is perfectly capable of maintaining express wants to see
community involvement. If they stop accepting pull requests does what
Joyent did - I think that would justify a community takeover, but we should
give them a chance.

In the meantime... if a similar project with open governance and no
corporate involvement took off - I'd use that over express without
question. It's like Debian vs Ubuntu vs LibreLinux vs Fedora etc. etc. - if
you want open governance - FORK IT - and I'll support the project. It's
healthy for the ecosystem.


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#2844 (comment)
.

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Good to hear, @jasnell

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aredridel commented Jan 26, 2016

Good to hear, @jasnell

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ritch commented Jan 29, 2016

@ritch ritch closed this Jan 29, 2016

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I am donating all of my Node.js modules to the Node.js foundation, to go along with Express.

https://twitter.com/blipsofadoug/status/693240458516926465

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dougwilson commented Jan 30, 2016

I am donating all of my Node.js modules to the Node.js foundation, to go along with Express.

https://twitter.com/blipsofadoug/status/693240458516926465

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lmarkus Jan 30, 2016

Hey @dougwilson, I hope that this decision was reached from a good place.
As you've seen, you have a ton of community support behind you, and it looks like the future is bright for these projects.

All the best!
(Also thanks to @jasnell for guiding the discussions in a level fashion)

lmarkus commented Jan 30, 2016

Hey @dougwilson, I hope that this decision was reached from a good place.
As you've seen, you have a ton of community support behind you, and it looks like the future is bright for these projects.

All the best!
(Also thanks to @jasnell for guiding the discussions in a level fashion)

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lordKnighton Jan 30, 2016

👍 @jasnell

(Also thanks to @jasnell for guiding the discussions in a level fashion)

lordKnighton commented Jan 30, 2016

👍 @jasnell

(Also thanks to @jasnell for guiding the discussions in a level fashion)

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@mikeal is who helped me understand what putting Express.js in the foundation means and why it is the right choice. Because it's dependencies are critical to the ability for a working group to affect change in the Express.js codebase, I think that all my modules, which Express either depends on or official Express middleware depend on, should go with the Express repository into the foundation. This will allow a working group to effectively manage Express as well and help move it forward.

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dougwilson commented Jan 30, 2016

@mikeal is who helped me understand what putting Express.js in the foundation means and why it is the right choice. Because it's dependencies are critical to the ability for a working group to affect change in the Express.js codebase, I think that all my modules, which Express either depends on or official Express middleware depend on, should go with the Express repository into the foundation. This will allow a working group to effectively manage Express as well and help move it forward.

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jamesqo commented Feb 17, 2016

@luiselizondo Sounds awesome!

@amcdnl amcdnl referenced this issue Feb 22, 2016

Closed

KOA > Express #59

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mbonaci Feb 29, 2016

@jasnell If you want for Express to stay well, offer @dougwilson and @Fishrock123 a full-time position and full autonomy and let them do their thing.
Keeping the position of power ("you'll have to see", "you'll talk to Loop guys") brings IBM nothing, except threads like these, while doing what I suggested lets IBM use it in its marketing materials. You should make clear to all interested parties in IBM that that's all they're ever going to get out of it. Sponsors and contributors or Express.

mbonaci commented Feb 29, 2016

@jasnell If you want for Express to stay well, offer @dougwilson and @Fishrock123 a full-time position and full autonomy and let them do their thing.
Keeping the position of power ("you'll have to see", "you'll talk to Loop guys") brings IBM nothing, except threads like these, while doing what I suggested lets IBM use it in its marketing materials. You should make clear to all interested parties in IBM that that's all they're ever going to get out of it. Sponsors and contributors or Express.

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tleen Feb 29, 2016

I may be old. This GitHub generation of making binding decisions on Slack at 2am is not the world into which Express was purchased. IBM is not a bad company, but they are literally the company of all companies. Gihugey companies like IBM buy a company like StrongLoop and it make take them a year to have enough meetings and conferences to even know what they bought. Decisions are made at a glacial pace relative to closed-source startups, let alone the GitHub model some of you have known, and only known. IBM was writing software before your parents were born. IBM was old before the Internet was born.

Eventually they will get moving on things, but the pace you expect is in no way the pace to which they are generally accustomed. Patience is required. Careful calculated deliberation is the world into which Express was sold. Again, I may be old. They do try.

tleen commented Feb 29, 2016

I may be old. This GitHub generation of making binding decisions on Slack at 2am is not the world into which Express was purchased. IBM is not a bad company, but they are literally the company of all companies. Gihugey companies like IBM buy a company like StrongLoop and it make take them a year to have enough meetings and conferences to even know what they bought. Decisions are made at a glacial pace relative to closed-source startups, let alone the GitHub model some of you have known, and only known. IBM was writing software before your parents were born. IBM was old before the Internet was born.

Eventually they will get moving on things, but the pace you expect is in no way the pace to which they are generally accustomed. Patience is required. Careful calculated deliberation is the world into which Express was sold. Again, I may be old. They do try.

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Can someone lock this conversation? I don't think it is possible for anything constructive to come from leaving this open.

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wesleytodd commented Feb 29, 2016

Can someone lock this conversation? I don't think it is possible for anything constructive to come from leaving this open.

@expressjs expressjs locked and limited conversation to collaborators Feb 29, 2016

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jasnell commented Feb 29, 2016

Done

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