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add japanese translate #3

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merged 6 commits into from Jan 21, 2015

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Jxck commented Dec 29, 2014

Hi all.

I wanna advocate this manifesto and principle of Extensible Web to Japanese web devs.

I think this thought is quite important for web future, so I wanna join this as possible as I can.
in japan, there are lots of powerful web developer, but it seem for me that they don't no about this manifesto well.
at first, I translate this in Japanese. but I don't know how publish it.

so I create this PR for asking you.

if it's works fine for you, I'm appreciate it if you publish this for example at https://ja.extensiblewebmanifesto.org/
or if that dosen't works. please let me to publish this at my own domain (https://jxck.io) or on my blog (http://jxck.hatenablog.com).

also, thanks for your every works for web.

thanks, and sorry for my poor english ;p

Jxck

標準化が発展していくモデルとして、手順を重視しトップダウンで決定するモデルよりも、多くの有能な開発者によって駆動するモデルを選びます。

ブラウザベンダは、基盤となるプラットフォームが持つ可能性を、低レベルの機能としてできる限り提供すべきです。
新しい高レベル API を JavaScript による実装をもとに議論できるように、土台を提供すべきです(すでに [Mozilla's X-Tags](http://www.x-tags.org/) や [Google's Polymer](http://www.polymer-projec.org/) で行われています)。

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@kzys

kzys Dec 29, 2014

Typo: polymer-projec -> polymer-project


特に、 Extensible Web プラットフォームに対して、以下の方針を提唱します。
* 標準化プロセスは、 Web プラットフォームに対するセキュアで効果的な ***新しい低レベルな機能*** の策定に注力すべきです。
* Web プラットフォームは、開発者が HTLM や CSS などを理解し、それらを置き換えることが可能となる ***既存の特徴を説明*** した低レベルな機能を提供すべきです。

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@kzys

kzys Dec 29, 2014

Typo: HTLM -> HTML


***新しい低レベルな機能*** の仕様化にフォーカスし、その観点から新しい機能を実装することで、

* 新しいセキュリティ境界の導入することができます。

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@kzys

kzys Dec 29, 2014

I think "contain" should be translated as 制限 or 抑える, instead of 導入.

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@Jxck

Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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"新しいセキュリティ境界を制限することができます" works fine ?

but honestly, I don't understand much about what this mean..

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@kzys

kzys Dec 30, 2014

�I thought there was a consistent Japanese translation for "security surface area" (like 関数 for function), and then we could find appropriate words around it (like 適用 for apply, 束縛 for bind, ...).

However It seems not. This document uses "セキュリティ領域" as "security surface area".
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd837644(v=ws.10).aspx
http://technet.microsoft.com/ja-jp/library/dd837644%28v=ws.10%29.aspx

But another document just uses "セキュリティの問題" for the word, even in the same company.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/jj863248.aspx
http://technet.microsoft.com/ja-jp/windows/jj863248.aspx

How about "新しいセキュリティの問題を減らすことができます"? It can be translated as "Reduce new security problems", but it is not so far from the original paragraph.

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@Jxck

Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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thanks !
I don't think english to japanese can translate 1:1.
so "新しいセキュリティの問題を減らすことができます" quite fit with this case :)

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@Jxck

Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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I'll choice "新しいセキュリティの問題を抑制することができます" totally.


以下の方針に基づいて ***優先順位づけ*** することで、
* (特に短期間の)標準化プロセスを解放し、セキュリティやパフォーマンスへの懸念や、新しいハードウェアなどプラットフォームレベルでしか追加しえない機能の標準化に注力できます。
* Web の開発者とブラウザ向けのライブラリが、コストのかかる調査を主導できます。

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@kzys

kzys Dec 29, 2014

"ブラウザ向け" sounds like "for browsers", not "browser-initiated". Doesn't it mention libraries like X-Tags by Mozilla?

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@Jxck

Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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"ブラウザ由来のライブラリ" works fine ?

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@kzys

kzys Dec 30, 2014

How about "ブラウザベンダ由来のライブラリ", because "ブラウザ由来のライブラリ" sounds like "implemented as browsers' functionality, and extracted as libraries later" which is opposite to the recommended approach.

It can be translated as "browser vendor-initiated libraries", not "browser-initiated libraries", but Polymer was initiated by Google, not Chrome, X-Tags was initiated by Mozilla, not Firefox.

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@Jxck

Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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I know what you mean. but..

"Allow web developers and browser-initiated libraries to take the lead in costly explorations."

there is no "vendor" word, so I feel negative to translate like that.. :(

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@kzys

kzys Dec 30, 2014

Right. I can agree that it was too "free". +1 for "ブラウザ由来のライブラリ".


もっと開発者がコードを書いて欲しいと考えています。それによって、新しい形式を取り入れる上での標準化のボトルネックを取り除き、ライブラリとフレームワークの作者に、開発に必要なツールを提供します。

オープンな Web が取り囲む競合と競うために、 Web 開発者には良いアイデアを、 Web のインフラの一部として形にするためのはっきりした手段が必要です。開発者が主導して Web の未来を形作れるようにすべきです。

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@kzys

kzys Dec 29, 2014

Well, web developers need the way, but the original paragraph said that the platform itself needs the way.

How about "オープンな Web が取り囲む競合と競うためには、 Web 開発者の良いアイデアを、Web のインフラの一部とするための、はっきりとした手段が必要です。" instead?

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@kzys

kzys Dec 29, 2014

In addition to that, I think "its walled competitors" means that "competitors who build walls around developers", not "competitors who build walls around the open web". Then translating the word as "取り囲む競合" weaken the nuance.

I'm not sure what is the best, "クローズドな競合" might be too strong, "開発者を取り囲むような競合" might be too long...

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@Jxck

Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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"オープンな Web が取り囲む競合と競うためには、 Web 開発者の良いアイデアを、Web のインフラの一部とするための、はっきりとした手段が必要です。" seems fine.

"its walled competitors" seems "competitors who build walls around the open web" isn't it?
this said that web need the power as a platform to compete with other platform.

who is "competitors who build walls around developers" ?
standarization ?

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@kzys

kzys Dec 30, 2014

Proprietary platforms like Android and iOS are the competitors. These platforms are "walled", because of the stores, approval processes, closed decision making about the future of the platforms, and the owners.

Mentioning "walled" is kind of a cliche, I think.
http://readwrite.com/2011/08/10/knocking_down_apples_walled_garden_html5_vs_ios_apps

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@Jxck

Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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that means "proprietary platform walls around open web" I think.

so, not "開発者を取り囲むような競合" but "オープンな Web を取り囲む競合"

so how about this ?

"In order for the open web to compete with its walled competitors, there must be a clear path for good ideas by web developers to become part of the infrastructure of the web."
"オープンな Web がそれを取りまく競合と競うためには、 Web 開発者の良いアイデアを、Web のインフラの一部とするためのはっきりとした手段が必要です。"

* すでに実世界で、実装され意味を成している新しい API があることで、長期に渡る標準化プロセスをシンプルかつ効率化します。


もっと開発者がコードを書いて欲しいと考えています。それによって、新しい形式を取り入れる上での標準化のボトルネックを取り除き、ライブラリとフレームワークの作者に、開発に必要なツールを提供します。

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@kzys

kzys Dec 29, 2014

We are talking about declarative code, not just "more code".

How about "私たちは、開発者がより宣言的なコードを書いて欲しいと考えています。そのためには、新しい宣言的な形をとりいれる際の標準化のボトルネックを取り除き、ライブラリとフレームワークの作者に、それを作るためのツールを提供することが必要です。" instead?

Well "それを作るため" might be confusing...

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@Jxck

Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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"We want web developers to write more declarative code, not less. This calls for eliminating the standards bottleneck to introducing new declarative forms, and giving library and framework authors the tools to create them."

"writing a declarative code" calls for "eliminate bottleneck" and "giving tool".
not for "eliminate bottleneck" and "giving tool" for developer for "writing a declarative code" isn't it ?

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@kzys

kzys Dec 30, 2014

Sorry, I didn't get it.

My understanding is that, exposing low-level capabilities eliminates the bottleneck (because the standard folks don't have to discuss about higher abstractions). Then it allows library and framework authors to create various declarative forms. Therefore web developers can write more declarative code, from the vary options.

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Jxck Dec 30, 2014

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update to

"もっと開発者がコードを書いて欲しいと考えています。それは、新しい形式を取り入れる上での標準化のボトルネックを取り除き、ライブラリとフレームワークの作者に、開発のために必要なツールを提供します。"

@yoheiMune

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yoheiMune commented Jan 16, 2015

This is pretty good, I feel so, and I also definitely want to expand this idea to Japanese developers.
I hope this request will be accepted.

@harry0000

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harry0000 commented Jan 20, 2015

Great job! 👍

I have verified this translation , so I found some orthographical variants.

  • 「元に」 <-> 「もとに」
  • 「回る」 <-> 「まわします」
  • 「既に」 <-> 「すでに」
  • 「Web開発者」 <-> 「Web の開発者」
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Jxck commented Jan 20, 2015

updated, thanks @harry0000 :)

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agektmr commented Jan 21, 2015

LGTM

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bkardell commented Jan 21, 2015

Thanks everybody, I have one more person who said they'd look it over in the next few hours, plan to merge barring anything unforseen when I wake up US EST

@kinu

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kinu commented Jan 21, 2015

This looks good to me too, and it'd be great to have translations on the site!

@kinu

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kinu commented Jan 21, 2015

One nit comment:

  • 「Mozilla's X-Tags や Google's Polymer」 → 「Mozilla の X-Tags や Google の Polymer」would be probably more natural
@h13i32maru

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h13i32maru commented Jan 21, 2015

LGTM!
[IMO] "新しい特徴を説明することは" -> "新しい機能を説明すると、"

@Jxck Jxck force-pushed the Jxck:master branch from 0175dab to e3b4755 Jan 21, 2015

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Jxck commented Jan 21, 2015

updated thanks @kinu.

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Jxck commented Jan 21, 2015

thanks @h13i32maru
but I think it's better as-is. "by explaining ~" it to be "説明することは〜" or "説明することで〜".

bkardell added a commit that referenced this pull request Jan 21, 2015

Merge pull request #3 from Jxck/master
add japanese translate

@bkardell bkardell merged commit aca6823 into extensibleweb:master Jan 21, 2015

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Jxck commented Jan 21, 2015

thanks @bkardell and everyone ;)


特に、 Extensible Web プラットフォームに対して、以下の方針を提唱します。
* 標準化プロセスは、 Web プラットフォームに対するセキュアで効果的な ***新しい低レベルな機能*** の策定に注力すべきです。
* Web プラットフォームは、開発者が HTML や CSS などを理解し、それらを置き換えることが可能となる ***既存の特徴を説明*** した低レベルな機能を提供すべきです。

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@kwkbtr

kwkbtr Jan 26, 2015

The meaning of the sentence seems to be slightly different from that of the english one.
I propose:

「Web プラットフォームは、 HTML や CSS などの _既存の特徴を説明_ する低レベルな機能を提供することで、開発者がそれを理解し再現することが可能となるようにすべきです。」

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@Jxck

Jxck Jan 27, 2015

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this trans seems fine for me.
I'll fix it, thanks !

@yuskesh

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yuskesh commented Jan 28, 2015

I prefer "編集者" than "エディタ". "エディタ" sounds like editor software.

And I've been wondering "低レベルな機能" is equivalent of "low-level capabilities" here. I think some meanings are lost in translation.

Sorry, I don't come up with proper translation for now.

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Jxck commented Jan 28, 2015

but I don't know word exactly same meaning with "low-level capabilities".
we never say "低レベルな能力" in usual tech talk.
"機能" used multiple mean including 'feature' and 'capabilities' in Japan,
and ja <-> en is not 1:1.

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Jxck commented Jan 29, 2015

I think we use 'エディタ' in standardization context.
and usually 'Editor' is '編集者' in Japanese, but 'spec editor' actually means like '執筆者', '策定者' etc.
so I think 'エディタ' seems fit with in this context, rather than force Japanese un-much word.

anyway, thanks for review ysukesh :)

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yuskesh commented Jan 29, 2015

About 'エディタ', then I'd suggest to use 'エディター'. It's super tiny problem though.
Omitting 'ー' is only used in technical term.
see http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%95%B7%E9%9F%B3%E7%AC%A6#.E9.95.B7.E9.9F.B3.E7.AC.A6.E3.81.AE.E7.9C.81.E7.95.A5

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