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change the tip structure #180

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chadwhitacre opened this Issue Jul 23, 2012 · 33 comments

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 23, 2012

Tips started here:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)
   ---------------------------------------------------------
$    0.08          4.16              0.35
$    0.16          8.32              0.69
$    0.32         16.64              1.39
$    0.64         33.28              2.77
$    1.28         66.56              5.55

Then they went here (ticket is #95; here is the change announcement on the blog):

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)
   ---------------------------------------------------------
$     0.25          13                 1.08
$     3            156                13
$     6            312                26
$    12            624                52
$    24           1248               104

Now the sentiment on this HN thread is that they should go even higher still. The specific asks are:

  • raise the minimum tip from $0.25 to $1.00
  • have more options in the $4 to $24 per month range
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chadwhitacre Jul 23, 2012

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I count +4 on HN atm. Maybe +5.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 23, 2012

I count +4 on HN atm. Maybe +5.

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singpolyma Jul 23, 2012

I see no benefit to raising the minimum. People can always choose more.

Unless it's costing you money. Then, sure.

I see no benefit to raising the minimum. People can always choose more.

Unless it's costing you money. Then, sure.

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mythz Jul 23, 2012

25c shouldn't give the impression that you're "supporting the project", if it's not going to be raised, the min should be configurable per user.

mythz commented Jul 23, 2012

25c shouldn't give the impression that you're "supporting the project", if it's not going to be raised, the min should be configurable per user.

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ricardobeat Jul 23, 2012

@singpolyma those $0.25 add up to $13/year, and the next option is at $156/year. Maybe it shouldn't be removed, $1/month is a decent amount if you want to support multiple devs, but I think there is room for middle tiers.

There is the problem of perception too: $1/month sounds ok, but $0.25 feels like pissing in the wind.

@singpolyma those $0.25 add up to $13/year, and the next option is at $156/year. Maybe it shouldn't be removed, $1/month is a decent amount if you want to support multiple devs, but I think there is room for middle tiers.

There is the problem of perception too: $1/month sounds ok, but $0.25 feels like pissing in the wind.

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voltagex Jul 24, 2012

At 25c the transaction fee for me is higher than the tip. $1 is pushing it, but better

At 25c the transaction fee for me is higher than the tip. $1 is pushing it, but better

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chadwhitacre Jul 24, 2012

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The transaction fee problem can be solved separately; see #167.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 24, 2012

The transaction fee problem can be solved separately; see #167.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 24, 2012

+1
+1

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chadwhitacre Jul 24, 2012

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Counter-position (HN):

Should weekly tips only be given to people whose work I use weekly? If so, then yes, I agree that $0.25/week is not a good tip.

But what about the person whose Emacs config files I read at GitHub and found somewhat informative? And what about the person whose personal wiki (e.g., Org Mode files) I read at GitHub and found somewhat informative? Should I give these people good one-time tips instead of small weekly tips? Maybe I should, but I think I'd like to have the option to give them small weekly tips. Or is there some reason I shouldn't have this option?

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 24, 2012

Counter-position (HN):

Should weekly tips only be given to people whose work I use weekly? If so, then yes, I agree that $0.25/week is not a good tip.

But what about the person whose Emacs config files I read at GitHub and found somewhat informative? And what about the person whose personal wiki (e.g., Org Mode files) I read at GitHub and found somewhat informative? Should I give these people good one-time tips instead of small weekly tips? Maybe I should, but I think I'd like to have the option to give them small weekly tips. Or is there some reason I shouldn't have this option?

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chadwhitacre Jul 24, 2012

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I'd like to see someone address the counter-position above.

I hear a lot of concern about the $0.25 minimum, without noticing the $24 maximum.

The "need more options between $4 and $24 a month" argument is separate and interesting.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 24, 2012

I'd like to see someone address the counter-position above.

I hear a lot of concern about the $0.25 minimum, without noticing the $24 maximum.

The "need more options between $4 and $24 a month" argument is separate and interesting.

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pbiggar Jul 24, 2012

I commented on HN, following up here. Basically, $0.25 allows people feel like they're supporting someone, without actually supporting someone. Fuck em. Make it a dollar. Hell, make it $2, or even $5.

Better yet, test it. Show a $0.25 minimum to 50% of people, and a $1 minimum to others. Pick the one which helps your goals the most. Repeat as needed. I'll wager you make 2x the revenue (and help 2x as many people) by increasing the minimum significantly.

pbiggar commented Jul 24, 2012

I commented on HN, following up here. Basically, $0.25 allows people feel like they're supporting someone, without actually supporting someone. Fuck em. Make it a dollar. Hell, make it $2, or even $5.

Better yet, test it. Show a $0.25 minimum to 50% of people, and a $1 minimum to others. Pick the one which helps your goals the most. Repeat as needed. I'll wager you make 2x the revenue (and help 2x as many people) by increasing the minimum significantly.

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agravier Jul 24, 2012

What pbiggar said, but test it again later, in a few months, and again later, when your userbase will be larger and less biased by the proportion of HNers / early adopters.

What pbiggar said, but test it again later, in a few months, and again later, when your userbase will be larger and less biased by the proportion of HNers / early adopters.

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chrismdp Jul 24, 2012

I think a $1 option is definitely a great idea, whether or not we remove the $0.25 option.

Also a fan of testing it: perhaps 50% of newly created accounts get a slightly different version for a week or two?

I think a $1 option is definitely a great idea, whether or not we remove the $0.25 option.

Also a fan of testing it: perhaps 50% of newly created accounts get a slightly different version for a week or two?

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pbiggar Jul 24, 2012

I wouldn't jump to add $1 if you don't remove the 0.25 option. What's likely to happen? A portion of the $3 will drop down, and a portion of the $0.25 will move up. It's likely that more $3 people will drop down, but even if they were the same you'd be losing $2 to gain $0.75.

pbiggar commented Jul 24, 2012

I wouldn't jump to add $1 if you don't remove the 0.25 option. What's likely to happen? A portion of the $3 will drop down, and a portion of the $0.25 will move up. It's likely that more $3 people will drop down, but even if they were the same you'd be losing $2 to gain $0.75.

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jurre Jul 24, 2012

I'm sorry if this is answered somewhere else but why are there fixed amounts and why can't I decide to give someone $2.56 a week if I'd want to?

jurre commented Jul 24, 2012

I'm sorry if this is answered somewhere else but why are there fixed amounts and why can't I decide to give someone $2.56 a week if I'd want to?

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chadwhitacre Jul 24, 2012

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@jurre Simplicity. Here's the clearest articulation (#95):

I think keeping the amount choices limited makes it much easier to choose one. Making people type in an amount is a hurtle. An empty type-in box does not give any indication of what is typical within the Gittip world.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 24, 2012

@jurre Simplicity. Here's the clearest articulation (#95):

I think keeping the amount choices limited makes it much easier to choose one. Making people type in an amount is a hurtle. An empty type-in box does not give any indication of what is typical within the Gittip world.

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chadwhitacre Jul 24, 2012

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I'm considering running a test with these amounts:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)
   ---------------------------------------------------------
$     1             52                 4.33
$     2            104                 8.67
$     5            260                21.67
$    10            520                43.33
$    20           1040                86.67

That raises the bottom and lowers the rest. Remember that we're trying to maximize total throughput.

I'm also considering simply raising the floor:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)
   ---------------------------------------------------------
$     1             52                 4.33
$     3            156                13
$     6            312                26
$    12            624                52
$    24           1248               104

Current, for comparison:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)
   ---------------------------------------------------------
$     0.25          13                 1.08
$     3            156                13
$     6            312                26
$    12            624                52
$    24           1248               104

Running a simultaneous A/B test where we show 50% of users one thing and 50% another is too much for me to pull off right now. Instead my plan would be to do like we did with the first change, and change the amounts for everyone, and ask people to pick again. We have historical data on tip amounts so we should be able to make meaningful comparisons.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 24, 2012

I'm considering running a test with these amounts:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)
   ---------------------------------------------------------
$     1             52                 4.33
$     2            104                 8.67
$     5            260                21.67
$    10            520                43.33
$    20           1040                86.67

That raises the bottom and lowers the rest. Remember that we're trying to maximize total throughput.

I'm also considering simply raising the floor:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)
   ---------------------------------------------------------
$     1             52                 4.33
$     3            156                13
$     6            312                26
$    12            624                52
$    24           1248               104

Current, for comparison:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)
   ---------------------------------------------------------
$     0.25          13                 1.08
$     3            156                13
$     6            312                26
$    12            624                52
$    24           1248               104

Running a simultaneous A/B test where we show 50% of users one thing and 50% another is too much for me to pull off right now. Instead my plan would be to do like we did with the first change, and change the amounts for everyone, and ask people to pick again. We have historical data on tip amounts so we should be able to make meaningful comparisons.

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ricardobeat Jul 24, 2012

@whit537 you could draw some inspiration from Humble Bundle, their stats display provides good guides on how much to spend. It's not live now, but it starts with an input filled for $9 (or something around the average) which you can adjust typing or using a slider.

I don't see why you would reduce the higher amounts, the gaps will remain roughly the same but you'll reduce totals.

Also, just a hunch, but in my mind $3/month is a sweet spot. I continue to pay that amount to Grooveshark just for support without even thinking, even though I rarely use it (since it's banned everywhere).

@whit537 you could draw some inspiration from Humble Bundle, their stats display provides good guides on how much to spend. It's not live now, but it starts with an input filled for $9 (or something around the average) which you can adjust typing or using a slider.

I don't see why you would reduce the higher amounts, the gaps will remain roughly the same but you'll reduce totals.

Also, just a hunch, but in my mind $3/month is a sweet spot. I continue to pay that amount to Grooveshark just for support without even thinking, even though I rarely use it (since it's banned everywhere).

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chadwhitacre Jul 25, 2012

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Hmmm ... why limit ourselves to six buttons? What if we just add a whole bunch more options? Like so:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)    New
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
$     0.25          13                 1.08
$     1             52                 4.33         ✓
$     2            104                 8.67         ✓
$     3            156                13
$     4            208                17.33         ✓
$     5            260                21.67         ✓
$     6            312                26
$     9            468                39            ✓
$    12            624                52
$    18            936                78            ✓
$    24           1248               104

Would be interesting to watch the tip distribution curve fill in.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 25, 2012

Hmmm ... why limit ourselves to six buttons? What if we just add a whole bunch more options? Like so:

   Per Week  Per Year (x 52)   Per Month (÷ 12)    New
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
$     0.25          13                 1.08
$     1             52                 4.33         ✓
$     2            104                 8.67         ✓
$     3            156                13
$     4            208                17.33         ✓
$     5            260                21.67         ✓
$     6            312                26
$     9            468                39            ✓
$    12            624                52
$    18            936                78            ✓
$    24           1248               104

Would be interesting to watch the tip distribution curve fill in.

chadwhitacre added a commit that referenced this issue Jul 25, 2012

Add new tip amounts (#180)
This adds six new tip amounts, so there are now 12 buttons total. Is
that too many?
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pbiggar Jul 25, 2012

Choice forces a decision onto people. By restricting choices and making people fit into a box, you're freeing them from decision making. (I know this sounds stupid to developers, but it's pretty common in the SAAS world, where you typically see 3-4 plans, not 100.)

People most often choose the lowest or second lowest price. By bringing up the cost of those plans, you increase total revenue significantly. If you add a $1 plan between $0.25 and $3, lots of people who would choose $3 will choose $1 instead.

pbiggar commented Jul 25, 2012

Choice forces a decision onto people. By restricting choices and making people fit into a box, you're freeing them from decision making. (I know this sounds stupid to developers, but it's pretty common in the SAAS world, where you typically see 3-4 plans, not 100.)

People most often choose the lowest or second lowest price. By bringing up the cost of those plans, you increase total revenue significantly. If you add a $1 plan between $0.25 and $3, lots of people who would choose $3 will choose $1 instead.

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chadwhitacre Jul 25, 2012

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@pbiggar You're right.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 25, 2012

@pbiggar You're right.

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chadwhitacre Jul 25, 2012

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This ticket plays into the bigger question of how to model the relationship between individuals and groups on Gittip (#27). If individuals are pulling residual, long-tail gifts, let that be because they are idenfitied with larger projects / groups / brands. Let's let direct gifts to individuals be for true supporters.

Thanks for your feedback, everyone. :-)

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 25, 2012

This ticket plays into the bigger question of how to model the relationship between individuals and groups on Gittip (#27). If individuals are pulling residual, long-tail gifts, let that be because they are idenfitied with larger projects / groups / brands. Let's let direct gifts to individuals be for true supporters.

Thanks for your feedback, everyone. :-)

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alecperkins Jul 25, 2012

A little late, but some data relating to presenting choices of tip amounts and backing up exactly what @pbiggar said: The $144,146,165 Button

A little late, but some data relating to presenting choices of tip amounts and backing up exactly what @pbiggar said: The $144,146,165 Button

chadwhitacre added a commit that referenced this issue Jul 25, 2012

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@alecperkins Good look.

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chadwhitacre commented Jul 25, 2012

@alecperkins Good look.

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chmullig Jul 26, 2012

FWIW, I was and am in opposition to the $1 minimum (and I was and am in opposition to the $.08 minimum).

There are a ton of people I don't know anything about, but they seem to be doing good work. I'm happy to buy them a couple drinks a year for their seeming support of some software I use.

Like @jcheng5 on https://github.com/rstudio/rstudio/commits/master. He seems to commit to the project occasionally and be involved. I'd like to give him a token tip to help him out. However I don't know anything about him, nor do I care to. For me, giving him $13/year is totally reasonable. He's not important to me, but seems to be doing good work. @jjallaire on that project seems crucial though, so he might be worth $1 or $3. But jcheng5 seems like a minor contributor to a project that isn't that important to me.

So I'm looking at it from the POV of a donor. I'd rather give small tips to four times as many minor contributors, than have to pick just a quarter that number to give larger tips. That's more likely to result in me saying "ya know, they're just not worth it." The core handful who I'd heavily contribute to aren't impacted by the minimum anyway.

FWIW, I was and am in opposition to the $1 minimum (and I was and am in opposition to the $.08 minimum).

There are a ton of people I don't know anything about, but they seem to be doing good work. I'm happy to buy them a couple drinks a year for their seeming support of some software I use.

Like @jcheng5 on https://github.com/rstudio/rstudio/commits/master. He seems to commit to the project occasionally and be involved. I'd like to give him a token tip to help him out. However I don't know anything about him, nor do I care to. For me, giving him $13/year is totally reasonable. He's not important to me, but seems to be doing good work. @jjallaire on that project seems crucial though, so he might be worth $1 or $3. But jcheng5 seems like a minor contributor to a project that isn't that important to me.

So I'm looking at it from the POV of a donor. I'd rather give small tips to four times as many minor contributors, than have to pick just a quarter that number to give larger tips. That's more likely to result in me saying "ya know, they're just not worth it." The core handful who I'd heavily contribute to aren't impacted by the minimum anyway.

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lyndsysimon Jul 31, 2012

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I agree with @pbiggar - this isn't really a decision that's best made by instinct. We need data. :)

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lyndsysimon commented Jul 31, 2012

I agree with @pbiggar - this isn't really a decision that's best made by instinct. We need data. :)

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chadwhitacre Aug 1, 2012

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@chmullig Tips to projects (#27) would address your use case, I think. Give $1 to a project with 10 people, and let Gittip distribute it "equitably."

@lyndsysimon I think we don't have enough users yet to get good data. Once we grow another 10x or two we'll be able to run much more meaningful tests.

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chadwhitacre commented Aug 1, 2012

@chmullig Tips to projects (#27) would address your use case, I think. Give $1 to a project with 10 people, and let Gittip distribute it "equitably."

@lyndsysimon I think we don't have enough users yet to get good data. Once we grow another 10x or two we'll be able to run much more meaningful tests.

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bitdancer Aug 17, 2012

There are people I'm tipping at 0.25. I'm not willing to up that to 1.00 (and no I won't go into the reasons for that), so if forced to change my tip they'd not get anything. I'm happy for you to make this data driven, but do consider the point that by raising the minimum you might increase the total throughput while eliminating the money going to people who otherwise would get the smaller tips, for whatever reason.

There are people I'm tipping at 0.25. I'm not willing to up that to 1.00 (and no I won't go into the reasons for that), so if forced to change my tip they'd not get anything. I'm happy for you to make this data driven, but do consider the point that by raising the minimum you might increase the total throughput while eliminating the money going to people who otherwise would get the smaller tips, for whatever reason.

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jbuedel Aug 27, 2012

I'd like to weigh in the on upping the minimum to $1. I literally logged on to gittip in order to start tipping one of my favorite projects but decided against it when I realized I would have to tip $52 a year minimum. $13/yr was a better starting point for me. I believe that a $1 minimum will drive away tippers.

To the folks that say $.25 does not qualify as "supporting" the project: About a year ago I bought some commercial software (LinqPad and RubyMine) and paid ~$40 and $34.50 respectively. Next year this time I will have used them long enough that the cost to me will approach $.25 a week. Am I not supporting those projects? I think that I am.

Lastly I'd like to point out that I do some unrelated giving to various organizations. My pattern is that I tend to start with small amounts, and increase over time as I become more comfortable with it I guess. For example, I was giving $50 a year to an organization at my former university. I upped that to $10 a month at some point, then $20, and now give about $1200 a year. I think it is reasonable to expect that my gittips would follow a similar pattern. I appreciate that the $.25 option allows me to start small.

jbuedel commented Aug 27, 2012

I'd like to weigh in the on upping the minimum to $1. I literally logged on to gittip in order to start tipping one of my favorite projects but decided against it when I realized I would have to tip $52 a year minimum. $13/yr was a better starting point for me. I believe that a $1 minimum will drive away tippers.

To the folks that say $.25 does not qualify as "supporting" the project: About a year ago I bought some commercial software (LinqPad and RubyMine) and paid ~$40 and $34.50 respectively. Next year this time I will have used them long enough that the cost to me will approach $.25 a week. Am I not supporting those projects? I think that I am.

Lastly I'd like to point out that I do some unrelated giving to various organizations. My pattern is that I tend to start with small amounts, and increase over time as I become more comfortable with it I guess. For example, I was giving $50 a year to an organization at my former university. I upped that to $10 a month at some point, then $20, and now give about $1200 a year. I think it is reasonable to expect that my gittips would follow a similar pattern. I appreciate that the $.25 option allows me to start small.

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chadwhitacre Aug 29, 2012

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There are a bunch of people I still have at the $0.25 level as well. By contrast, I didn't think twice going from $0.08 to $0.25.

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chadwhitacre commented Aug 29, 2012

There are a bunch of people I still have at the $0.25 level as well. By contrast, I didn't think twice going from $0.08 to $0.25.

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chrismdp Aug 29, 2012

I think the $1 minimum is probably hurting Gittip. I feel much better about tipping 4 people $0.25 than I do about tipping 1 person $1. I think that $0.25 tips help behind the sceners, too (see #217).

I think the $1 minimum is probably hurting Gittip. I feel much better about tipping 4 people $0.25 than I do about tipping 1 person $1. I think that $0.25 tips help behind the sceners, too (see #217).

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bitdancer Aug 29, 2012

I agree that I had no resistance going from 0.8 to 0.25.

I agree that I had no resistance going from 0.8 to 0.25.

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buchuki Sep 6, 2012

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I wonder if a better plan, wouldn't be to have each user say how much they want to tip in total per week, and then allow them to divide that as they see fit between members. I'm inclined to tip about the same amount per week, so at $1 I'm tipping fewer people, although gittip is moving the same amount of money.

At a $1 minimum, we are supporting the idea of complete funding for fewer superstars. at $0.25 we are supporting more people, but fewer of them can quit their day jobs. I think the interface should strive to make people more generous (increase the total amount they put into gittip), not to make certain people more funded.

I think an ideal interface would be:

  • in my profile some way to set how much I want to tip per week (in total).
  • a slider on other member's profiles allowing me to allocate a percentage of my total weekly contributions to a specific user.

In addition, my profile view should indicate the difference between my incoming and outgoing tips.

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buchuki commented Sep 6, 2012

I wonder if a better plan, wouldn't be to have each user say how much they want to tip in total per week, and then allow them to divide that as they see fit between members. I'm inclined to tip about the same amount per week, so at $1 I'm tipping fewer people, although gittip is moving the same amount of money.

At a $1 minimum, we are supporting the idea of complete funding for fewer superstars. at $0.25 we are supporting more people, but fewer of them can quit their day jobs. I think the interface should strive to make people more generous (increase the total amount they put into gittip), not to make certain people more funded.

I think an ideal interface would be:

  • in my profile some way to set how much I want to tip per week (in total).
  • a slider on other member's profiles allowing me to allocate a percentage of my total weekly contributions to a specific user.

In addition, my profile view should indicate the difference between my incoming and outgoing tips.

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chadwhitacre Jan 8, 2013

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I'm turning the 25¢ button back on for January:

http://blog.gittip.com/post/40015064388/25-growth-special

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chadwhitacre commented Jan 8, 2013

I'm turning the 25¢ button back on for January:

http://blog.gittip.com/post/40015064388/25-growth-special

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