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review new teams for Gratipay 158 #234

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chadwhitacre opened this Issue Jun 2, 2015 · 43 comments

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chadwhitacre Jun 4, 2015

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Are these teams a good fit for Gratipay? How can these teams improve their application? What questions do you have for these teams?

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 4, 2015

Are these teams a good fit for Gratipay? How can these teams improve their application? What questions do you have for these teams?

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chadwhitacre Jun 4, 2015

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Bcc: [21]
Subject: Thanks for your application!

Greetings!

You're receiving this email because you've applied for a new team on Gratipay sometime in the past week (sorry for not contacting you sooner; that's a bug on our part). Thank you for applying!

In reviewing applications, we are primarily looking for whether you provide open work that is consistent with our mission and our brand values. By "open work" we mean that individuals can start contributing to your team's work without explicit permission from you, with a clear path to sharing in any revenue your team may generate.

While the wider Gratipay community does have a chance to comment publicly on your application, the final decision whether to accept or reject your application will come from Gratipay itself. Please expect a decision from us by next Thursday, June 11.

If you have questions about your application, feel free to reply privately to this email or comment publicly on GitHub.

Thanks again for your application! :-)

—Gratipay

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 4, 2015

Bcc: [21]
Subject: Thanks for your application!

Greetings!

You're receiving this email because you've applied for a new team on Gratipay sometime in the past week (sorry for not contacting you sooner; that's a bug on our part). Thank you for applying!

In reviewing applications, we are primarily looking for whether you provide open work that is consistent with our mission and our brand values. By "open work" we mean that individuals can start contributing to your team's work without explicit permission from you, with a clear path to sharing in any revenue your team may generate.

While the wider Gratipay community does have a chance to comment publicly on your application, the final decision whether to accept or reject your application will come from Gratipay itself. Please expect a decision from us by next Thursday, June 11.

If you have questions about your application, feel free to reply privately to this email or comment publicly on GitHub.

Thanks again for your application! :-)

—Gratipay

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chadwhitacre Jun 5, 2015

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@kyledrake bounced our mail; reticketed that as gratipay/gratipay.com#3530.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 5, 2015

@kyledrake bounced our mail; reticketed that as gratipay/gratipay.com#3530.

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rohitpaulk Jun 5, 2015

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Stuff that looks off to me -

https://gratipay.com/commie-subs/

https://gratipay.com/aerith-radio/

https://gratipay.com/jens-segers/ - Account for an individual developer, revenue model and how to get involved are not mentioned.

https://gratipay.com/sqlalchemy/ -

How Revenue Is Shared
Contributors are paid directly via the customers they support on a contract or permanent basis.

What about Gratipay revenue?

https://gratipay.com/doit/ -

How Revenue Is Shared
Revenue is not shared with contributors.

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rohitpaulk commented Jun 5, 2015

Stuff that looks off to me -

https://gratipay.com/commie-subs/

https://gratipay.com/aerith-radio/

https://gratipay.com/jens-segers/ - Account for an individual developer, revenue model and how to get involved are not mentioned.

https://gratipay.com/sqlalchemy/ -

How Revenue Is Shared
Contributors are paid directly via the customers they support on a contract or permanent basis.

What about Gratipay revenue?

https://gratipay.com/doit/ -

How Revenue Is Shared
Revenue is not shared with contributors.

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book Jun 5, 2015

How is a team with a single member different from an individual?

Most of the teams seem to be centered around a single project. So (for programming-related projects at least) the "teams" sound like they actually are a proxy for the core group of developers, which for small projects (everything starts small) often is only an individual.

It seems to me that individual accounts like https://gratipay.com/jens-segers/ are meant to be a proxy for all the projects run by the individual. For example, I'm a CPAN author and when submitting teams I wondered if I should create a "team" for the work I publish as BOOK on CPAN in case someone wanted to support my open source work in general, as opposed to individual projects. (Some of the distributions I publish are not my creation: I took up maintenance of them after the original authors stopped working on them. This is called "adoption" in CPAN jargon.)

On CPAN, some distributions are the work of a (sometimes large) team, and some authors are very prolific (with a hundred or more distributions published). If I wanted to use Gratipay to support Perl projects, I'd like to be able to support both team projects and people whose work I appreciate.

Disclosure: I submitted applications for https://gratipay.com/act/ and https://gratipay.com/cpan-io/.

book commented Jun 5, 2015

How is a team with a single member different from an individual?

Most of the teams seem to be centered around a single project. So (for programming-related projects at least) the "teams" sound like they actually are a proxy for the core group of developers, which for small projects (everything starts small) often is only an individual.

It seems to me that individual accounts like https://gratipay.com/jens-segers/ are meant to be a proxy for all the projects run by the individual. For example, I'm a CPAN author and when submitting teams I wondered if I should create a "team" for the work I publish as BOOK on CPAN in case someone wanted to support my open source work in general, as opposed to individual projects. (Some of the distributions I publish are not my creation: I took up maintenance of them after the original authors stopped working on them. This is called "adoption" in CPAN jargon.)

On CPAN, some distributions are the work of a (sometimes large) team, and some authors are very prolific (with a hundred or more distributions published). If I wanted to use Gratipay to support Perl projects, I'd like to be able to support both team projects and people whose work I appreciate.

Disclosure: I submitted applications for https://gratipay.com/act/ and https://gratipay.com/cpan-io/.

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captn3m0 Jun 5, 2015

I also have similar concerns about my project, JOSD. It is an individual effort, so far, and even though I welcome contributions, it confuses people who see my name on the book and github repo and a "team" on the donation page.

captn3m0 commented Jun 5, 2015

I also have similar concerns about my project, JOSD. It is an individual effort, so far, and even though I welcome contributions, it confuses people who see my name on the book and github repo and a "team" on the donation page.

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webmaven Jun 5, 2015

Do we really care about how project revenue in general is shared? Or do we only care about how revenue through Gratipay is shared? Perhaps that section title should be reworded.

webmaven commented Jun 5, 2015

Do we really care about how project revenue in general is shared? Or do we only care about how revenue through Gratipay is shared? Perhaps that section title should be reworded.

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book Jun 5, 2015

@webmaven, but the way the revenue is shared on Gratipay is not really under control of the team owner, so they can't enforce much once they've invited new members.

book commented Jun 5, 2015

@webmaven, but the way the revenue is shared on Gratipay is not really under control of the team owner, so they can't enforce much once they've invited new members.

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webmaven Jun 5, 2015

@book:

but the way the revenue is shared on Gratipay is not really under control of the team owner, so they can't enforce much once they've invited new members.

It isn't?: gratipay/gratipay.com#3433 (comment)

webmaven commented Jun 5, 2015

@book:

but the way the revenue is shared on Gratipay is not really under control of the team owner, so they can't enforce much once they've invited new members.

It isn't?: gratipay/gratipay.com#3433 (comment)

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book Jun 5, 2015

Oh, OK. My reference was the features/teams page, which might be outdated.

book commented Jun 5, 2015

Oh, OK. My reference was the features/teams page, which might be outdated.

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chadwhitacre Jun 6, 2015

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Re: jens-segers. The user created that team during a private support exchange. He asked to withdraw his balance, and I gave him the option of migrating to a team account if he wanted to keep using Gratipay, or waiting until we release 1.0 balances otherwise. He stubbed out the team, but said he doesn't really care which option we go with, so I've rejected his application and put him on the list for 1.0 payouts.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 6, 2015

Re: jens-segers. The user created that team during a private support exchange. He asked to withdraw his balance, and I gave him the option of migrating to a team account if he wanted to keep using Gratipay, or waiting until we release 1.0 balances otherwise. He stubbed out the team, but said he doesn't really care which option we go with, so I've rejected his application and put him on the list for 1.0 payouts.

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chadwhitacre Jun 6, 2015

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What do we think about "Debian Long Term Support by Freexian"? That seems too long of a name to me. Could that be "Freexian" instead? I expect Freexian can't claim to represent all of Debian, such that the team could be "Debian" or even "Debian LTS." Though looking at the Debian wiki, it appears that Freexian's LTS support is fairly official:

https://wiki.debian.org/LTS
https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding

Maybe "Debian LTS" after all?

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 6, 2015

What do we think about "Debian Long Term Support by Freexian"? That seems too long of a name to me. Could that be "Freexian" instead? I expect Freexian can't claim to represent all of Debian, such that the team could be "Debian" or even "Debian LTS." Though looking at the Debian wiki, it appears that Freexian's LTS support is fairly official:

https://wiki.debian.org/LTS
https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding

Maybe "Debian LTS" after all?

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book Jun 6, 2015

One thing that is not clear to me (sorry fort being slightly off topic): what happens tout the money pooled on my user account when (if) the teams I submitted are accepted?

My participation to Gratipay 1.0 was mostly "remote", as I never put any money in the system, only redistributing some of what was tipped to me (probably not enough, considering how much I accumulated). I'm wondering if that kind of "participation" is still possible under Gratipay 2.0.

book commented Jun 6, 2015

One thing that is not clear to me (sorry fort being slightly off topic): what happens tout the money pooled on my user account when (if) the teams I submitted are accepted?

My participation to Gratipay 1.0 was mostly "remote", as I never put any money in the system, only redistributing some of what was tipped to me (probably not enough, considering how much I accumulated). I'm wondering if that kind of "participation" is still possible under Gratipay 2.0.

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chadwhitacre Jun 6, 2015

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How is a team with a single member different from an individual?

@book A team with a single member is open to other individuals joining, whereas an individual is just an individual. Creating multiple small teams is fine, the hope and expectation is that some small percentage of those small teams will eventually grow into much larger teams that support many, many people working on them. We want to bake that possibility in from the very beginning.

[W]hat happens tout the money pooled on my user account when (if) the teams I submitted are accepted?

We consider that your "Gratipay 1.0 balance," and we'll release it to you in the first payment cycle where you are an owner or member of a team.

I'm wondering if that kind of "participation" is still possible under Gratipay 2.0.

I believe so, if I understand you. On Gratipay 2.0 you can set up payments to other teams, and we'll debit/credit you the net during each payment cycle ... though, come to think of it, I'm not exactly sure what the behavior of the system is if you don't have a credit card attached.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 6, 2015

How is a team with a single member different from an individual?

@book A team with a single member is open to other individuals joining, whereas an individual is just an individual. Creating multiple small teams is fine, the hope and expectation is that some small percentage of those small teams will eventually grow into much larger teams that support many, many people working on them. We want to bake that possibility in from the very beginning.

[W]hat happens tout the money pooled on my user account when (if) the teams I submitted are accepted?

We consider that your "Gratipay 1.0 balance," and we'll release it to you in the first payment cycle where you are an owner or member of a team.

I'm wondering if that kind of "participation" is still possible under Gratipay 2.0.

I believe so, if I understand you. On Gratipay 2.0 you can set up payments to other teams, and we'll debit/credit you the net during each payment cycle ... though, come to think of it, I'm not exactly sure what the behavior of the system is if you don't have a credit card attached.

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chadwhitacre Jun 6, 2015

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My reference was the features/teams page, which might be outdated.

That describes one distribution method, which we're trying to bring back, though that's cascaded into bigger questions (#214). Regardless of the distribution mechanisms directly supported on Gratipay, it's always possible to distribute funds apart from Gratipay: simply withdraw the full amount of your income to your own bank account, and pay out contributors however you like from there.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 6, 2015

My reference was the features/teams page, which might be outdated.

That describes one distribution method, which we're trying to bring back, though that's cascaded into bigger questions (#214). Regardless of the distribution mechanisms directly supported on Gratipay, it's always possible to distribute funds apart from Gratipay: simply withdraw the full amount of your income to your own bank account, and pay out contributors however you like from there.

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book Jun 6, 2015

we'll debit/credit you the net during each payment cycle ... though, come to think of it, I'm not exactly sure what the behavior of the system is if you don't have a credit card attached.

Since people can't pool money anymore, that means if they don't have a credit card and the give more than they receive, then they'll give less. The best way is probably to distribute the debit proportionally across all recipients. So if someone want to give $10 and only receives $9 on a given week, then the missing $10 will be removed from each donation. If they planned to give $5, $3 and $2, then each recipient would receive $0.5, $0.3 and $0.2 less respectively.

I expect it's going to be more complicated than that if there are many people like (e.g. the person was actually receiving $10 but one of their donors came short, and so they only got $9), because there's some network effect there. I guess you'll need some extra rules to make it settle quickly on a unique solution. (Obviously, the order in which donations are processed shouldn't change the global result.)

book commented Jun 6, 2015

we'll debit/credit you the net during each payment cycle ... though, come to think of it, I'm not exactly sure what the behavior of the system is if you don't have a credit card attached.

Since people can't pool money anymore, that means if they don't have a credit card and the give more than they receive, then they'll give less. The best way is probably to distribute the debit proportionally across all recipients. So if someone want to give $10 and only receives $9 on a given week, then the missing $10 will be removed from each donation. If they planned to give $5, $3 and $2, then each recipient would receive $0.5, $0.3 and $0.2 less respectively.

I expect it's going to be more complicated than that if there are many people like (e.g. the person was actually receiving $10 but one of their donors came short, and so they only got $9), because there's some network effect there. I guess you'll need some extra rules to make it settle quickly on a unique solution. (Obviously, the order in which donations are processed shouldn't change the global result.)

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book Jun 6, 2015

@whit537, one question I didn't get an answer to is the following:

For example, I'm a CPAN author and when submitting teams I wondered if I should create a "team" for the work I publish as BOOK on CPAN in case someone wanted to support my open source work in general, as opposed to individual projects. (Some of the distributions I publish are not my creation: I took up maintenance of them after the original authors stopped working on them. This is called "adoption" in CPAN jargon.)

I've been giving the idea some more thought, and I think it would work fine for CPAN authors, who are typically people with several small projects (their own CPAN modules) rather than one larger project (although there are many large CPAN projects too, which usually outgrow their author, and would deserve a team of their own). So people who appreciate their work could tip them for their work on all their Perl modules in general, without the need to pinpoint one project in particular.

In my case, if I created a CPAN-BOOK team, I already know one person I would invite to the team, as he's been a contributor to several of my modules, with patches, help with debugging on Windows, etc. and I want to recognize that contribution to my work.

Of course, once I have created such a team and it's approved, I would suggest other CPAN authors to do the same. So I'm asking first, in case that sounds like a bad idea to Gratipay.

book commented Jun 6, 2015

@whit537, one question I didn't get an answer to is the following:

For example, I'm a CPAN author and when submitting teams I wondered if I should create a "team" for the work I publish as BOOK on CPAN in case someone wanted to support my open source work in general, as opposed to individual projects. (Some of the distributions I publish are not my creation: I took up maintenance of them after the original authors stopped working on them. This is called "adoption" in CPAN jargon.)

I've been giving the idea some more thought, and I think it would work fine for CPAN authors, who are typically people with several small projects (their own CPAN modules) rather than one larger project (although there are many large CPAN projects too, which usually outgrow their author, and would deserve a team of their own). So people who appreciate their work could tip them for their work on all their Perl modules in general, without the need to pinpoint one project in particular.

In my case, if I created a CPAN-BOOK team, I already know one person I would invite to the team, as he's been a contributor to several of my modules, with patches, help with debugging on Windows, etc. and I want to recognize that contribution to my work.

Of course, once I have created such a team and it's approved, I would suggest other CPAN authors to do the same. So I'm asking first, in case that sounds like a bad idea to Gratipay.

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chadwhitacre Jun 11, 2015

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@espadrine Can we work on the "Revenue Model" section of https://gratipay.com/shields/?

The donations are used to fund the servers, the TLS certificate, the domain name, and the reviewing process for contributions.

That says what revenue is used for, but the question here is "How does your team make money?" Where does the money come from in the first place? Who are your users? How do you get them to pay you?

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

@espadrine Can we work on the "Revenue Model" section of https://gratipay.com/shields/?

The donations are used to fund the servers, the TLS certificate, the domain name, and the reviewing process for contributions.

That says what revenue is used for, but the question here is "How does your team make money?" Where does the money come from in the first place? Who are your users? How do you get them to pay you?

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webmaven Jun 11, 2015

Re: #234 (comment)

SQLAlchemy is an interesting case. It is an open source project, whose development has been driven greatly by for-profit consulting (by many parties) to add enhancements. It isn't really structured to share donations among voluntary contributors from it's community (which is largely steered towards bug reporting and answering Qs on the mailing list and IRC channel), and I think the answer here indicates that Authors are generally assumed to be contributing patches that solve a problem for themselves (or for their clients). I could be wrong, but that seems to mean that all donations via PayPal are currently going directly to @zzzeek.

webmaven commented Jun 11, 2015

Re: #234 (comment)

SQLAlchemy is an interesting case. It is an open source project, whose development has been driven greatly by for-profit consulting (by many parties) to add enhancements. It isn't really structured to share donations among voluntary contributors from it's community (which is largely steered towards bug reporting and answering Qs on the mailing list and IRC channel), and I think the answer here indicates that Authors are generally assumed to be contributing patches that solve a problem for themselves (or for their clients). I could be wrong, but that seems to mean that all donations via PayPal are currently going directly to @zzzeek.

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chadwhitacre Jun 11, 2015

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@book Similar questions looking at https://gratipay.com/act/:

The website is completely free. The online payement system is provided by a third-party.

and https://gratipay.com/cpan-io/:

The web site is free, and run on GitHub. The only costs are hosting costs, which are currently paid by the owner, Philippe Bruhat (BooK).

This tells us what your costs are, but the question is, how do you make money? Who are your customers and how do you get them to pay you? Do you make an appeal on the website itself directly to users? Do you sell sponsorships?

one question I didn't get an answer to is the following

The CPAN-BOOK case is a fine use for Gratipay, yes. You're basically a small consulting company working on multiple Perl-related projects. Does that sound right? The fact that you've already got someone in mind whom you would consider part of your consultancy makes it all the clearer that this is a legitimate use of Gratipay. It's not uncommon for "closed" consultancies to incubate multiple products and spin them off into separate entities when they reach a critical mass. Sounds like you're proposing to do the same here, which is great! :-)

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

@book Similar questions looking at https://gratipay.com/act/:

The website is completely free. The online payement system is provided by a third-party.

and https://gratipay.com/cpan-io/:

The web site is free, and run on GitHub. The only costs are hosting costs, which are currently paid by the owner, Philippe Bruhat (BooK).

This tells us what your costs are, but the question is, how do you make money? Who are your customers and how do you get them to pay you? Do you make an appeal on the website itself directly to users? Do you sell sponsorships?

one question I didn't get an answer to is the following

The CPAN-BOOK case is a fine use for Gratipay, yes. You're basically a small consulting company working on multiple Perl-related projects. Does that sound right? The fact that you've already got someone in mind whom you would consider part of your consultancy makes it all the clearer that this is a legitimate use of Gratipay. It's not uncommon for "closed" consultancies to incubate multiple products and spin them off into separate entities when they reach a critical mass. Sounds like you're proposing to do the same here, which is great! :-)

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I sent the following to commie-subs a few days ago, in response to a support request from last week:

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner. We actually decided a few weeks ago that the fansub community as a whole isn't a good fit for Gratipay, for two reasons. First, the way different fansub groups characteristically relate to each other clashes pretty strongly with our brand values, particularly "kindness," and "collaboration." Second, we're not interested in being associated with the legal concerns that surround fansubbing.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

I sent the following to commie-subs a few days ago, in response to a support request from last week:

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner. We actually decided a few weeks ago that the fansub community as a whole isn't a good fit for Gratipay, for two reasons. First, the way different fansub groups characteristically relate to each other clashes pretty strongly with our brand values, particularly "kindness," and "collaboration." Second, we're not interested in being associated with the legal concerns that surround fansubbing.

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chadwhitacre Jun 11, 2015

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How to Get Involved

Move to or visit Mae Sot, Thailand.

https://gratipay.com/the-charis-project/

Hah! Love it, @technomancy. :-)

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

How to Get Involved

Move to or visit Mae Sot, Thailand.

https://gratipay.com/the-charis-project/

Hah! Love it, @technomancy. :-)

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I also have similar concerns about my project, JOSD. It is an individual effort, so far, and even though I welcome contributions, it confuses people who see my name on the book and github repo and a "team" on the donation page.

@captn3m0 Patreon might be a better fit if your goal is to build a personal brand instead of an open company. Even then, JSOD's revenue model is confusing to me:

We don't aim to make money. [...] All money that I personally receive will be donated to the EFF. (I cannot vouch for other team members)

If that's the case, why bother with Gratipay (or Patreon or ...) at all?

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

I also have similar concerns about my project, JOSD. It is an individual effort, so far, and even though I welcome contributions, it confuses people who see my name on the book and github repo and a "team" on the donation page.

@captn3m0 Patreon might be a better fit if your goal is to build a personal brand instead of an open company. Even then, JSOD's revenue model is confusing to me:

We don't aim to make money. [...] All money that I personally receive will be donated to the EFF. (I cannot vouch for other team members)

If that's the case, why bother with Gratipay (or Patreon or ...) at all?

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chadwhitacre Jun 11, 2015

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Okay, first pass through I was able to make a decision on 12 of the 21 teams this week, leaving nine with unresolved issues:

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

Okay, first pass through I was able to make a decision on 12 of the 21 teams this week, leaving nine with unresolved issues:

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chadwhitacre Jun 11, 2015

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To: Aerithradio
Subject: your Gratipay Team application

Greetings.

Thank you for applying for a Gratipay Team. We've decided not to accept your application, because you identify with the #GamerGate/anti-#GamerGate conflict, and that clashes too strongly with our own brand identity.

You may be interested in Liberapay when it launches. It's a fork of Gratipay with fewer restrictions on joining.

Best wishes.

—Gratipay

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

To: Aerithradio
Subject: your Gratipay Team application

Greetings.

Thank you for applying for a Gratipay Team. We've decided not to accept your application, because you identify with the #GamerGate/anti-#GamerGate conflict, and that clashes too strongly with our own brand identity.

You may be interested in Liberapay when it launches. It's a fork of Gratipay with fewer restrictions on joining.

Best wishes.

—Gratipay

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@schettino72 Looking at https://gratipay.com/doit/ ... can you unpack your thinking behind the revenue sharing section? You say, "Revenue is not shared with contributors." Is that because you don't have any revenue right now, or because you don't intend ever to share with contributors?

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

@schettino72 Looking at https://gratipay.com/doit/ ... can you unpack your thinking behind the revenue sharing section? You say, "Revenue is not shared with contributors." Is that because you don't have any revenue right now, or because you don't intend ever to share with contributors?

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chadwhitacre Jun 11, 2015

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@kyledrake Similar question for you re: https://gratipay.com/neocities/. Have you and Vera talked at all about a threshold past which you would be able to share revenue with other contributors? If so, can we add a sentence to that effect to the revenue sharing section? Maybe even move the second paragraph of the revenue model section down to revenue sharing?

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

@kyledrake Similar question for you re: https://gratipay.com/neocities/. Have you and Vera talked at all about a threshold past which you would be able to share revenue with other contributors? If so, can we add a sentence to that effect to the revenue sharing section? Maybe even move the second paragraph of the revenue model section down to revenue sharing?

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A thought - We could add small help notes above each input in the team application that indicate what we're expecting.

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rohitpaulk commented Jun 11, 2015

A thought - We could add small help notes above each input in the team application that indicate what we're expecting.

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@zzzeek Echoing @webmaven's comments above at #234 (comment), it seems that SQLAlchemy has a pretty well-established funding model outside of Gratipay, and the question for us here is how to model or adapt that for SQLAlchemy's presence on Gratipay. Both the revenue model and revenue sharing sections describe activity out-of-band from Gratipay's perspective. What about revenue generation and sharing on Gratipay?

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

@zzzeek Echoing @webmaven's comments above at #234 (comment), it seems that SQLAlchemy has a pretty well-established funding model outside of Gratipay, and the question for us here is how to model or adapt that for SQLAlchemy's presence on Gratipay. Both the revenue model and revenue sharing sections describe activity out-of-band from Gratipay's perspective. What about revenue generation and sharing on Gratipay?

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@rohitpaulk Not a bad idea, though we do have question prompts in addition to the titles.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

@rohitpaulk Not a bad idea, though we do have question prompts in addition to the titles.

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@rhertzog Looking at https://gratipay.com/debian-long-term-support-by-freexian/ over here ... your application looks good, and we're excited to have you on board. Can we do something about the name, though? It's so long. :)

Reposting from above at #234 (comment):

What do we think about "Debian Long Term Support by Freexian"? That seems too long of a name to me. Could that be "Freexian" instead? I expect Freexian can't claim to represent all of Debian, such that the team could be "Debian" or even "Debian LTS." Though looking at the Debian wiki, it appears that Freexian's LTS support is fairly official:

https://wiki.debian.org/LTS
https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding

Maybe "Debian LTS" after all?

What was your thought process behind the long name?

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

@rhertzog Looking at https://gratipay.com/debian-long-term-support-by-freexian/ over here ... your application looks good, and we're excited to have you on board. Can we do something about the name, though? It's so long. :)

Reposting from above at #234 (comment):

What do we think about "Debian Long Term Support by Freexian"? That seems too long of a name to me. Could that be "Freexian" instead? I expect Freexian can't claim to represent all of Debian, such that the team could be "Debian" or even "Debian LTS." Though looking at the Debian wiki, it appears that Freexian's LTS support is fairly official:

https://wiki.debian.org/LTS
https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Funding

Maybe "Debian LTS" after all?

What was your thought process behind the long name?

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Okay, I believe the owners of all eight unreviewed teams are all pinged here. I'm going to proceed with today's payday, and we'll see whom we can squeeze in and whom we'll have to bump to next week.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

Okay, I believe the owners of all eight unreviewed teams are all pinged here. I'm going to proceed with today's payday, and we'll see whom we can squeeze in and whom we'll have to bump to next week.

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rhertzog Jun 11, 2015

@whit537 So Freexian is the only company currently offering such a scheme to Debian LTS but there's no exclusive relationship with Debian LTS here... so I want to avoid any ambiguity and we should really keep the Freexian reference. Also Freexian is more than just Debian LTS... so my best suggestion would be to shorten it to "Debian LTS by Freexian".

rhertzog commented Jun 11, 2015

@whit537 So Freexian is the only company currently offering such a scheme to Debian LTS but there's no exclusive relationship with Debian LTS here... so I want to avoid any ambiguity and we should really keep the Freexian reference. Also Freexian is more than just Debian LTS... so my best suggestion would be to shorten it to "Debian LTS by Freexian".

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

@chadwhitacre chadwhitacre referenced this issue Jun 11, 2015

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review teams for Gratipay 159 #248

5 of 12 tasks complete
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Picking up on #248 ...

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 11, 2015

Picking up on #248 ...

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book Jun 12, 2015

@book Similar questions looking at https://gratipay.com/act/:

I expect the "similar questions" are:

  • How does your team make money?

    At the moment, we don't. We all have full-time jobs, and work on it on our spare time, for the benefit of the Perl community (150+ conferences supported in the past 12 years, plus those hosted by others using the open-source code)

  • Where does the money come from in the first place?

    The absence of money comes from nowhere. Or everywhere. :-)

  • Who are your users?

    Our main users are the Perl conference organizers. They usually ping us to request that we set up a website for their conference. We then set up a svn repository or git repository for them (although they can host their own if they want), where we fetch the site layout, and the rest is handled by the tool.

    If the conference is not free, and they want to use the online payment system, we need to hook up with the appropriate third party (the YAPC Europe Foundation, the Perl Foundation, or PayPal).

    The website users are the conference attendees, but we rarely deal with them directly.

  • How do you get them to pay you?

    We don't. It's a free service, a gift to the Perl community.

The code is twelve years old now, and while it's still used today to run conferences, many users find it lacks many features. So there are some side projects (run by others than me) to modernize the code base and make it easier to add new features.

My plan with the gratipay team is to invite the main sysadmin (who actually keeps it running for our users), and the main code contributors to the current code or the next version.

The website is completely free. The online payement system is provided by a third-party.

Because one of the usefulness of a conference website is to sell the tickets, the YAPC Europe Foundation non-profit organization was set up to support the online payment system. When a conference ticket is sold a 100 €, the bank gets about 2 €, and the organizers get the full 100 €. Which means that the YAPC Europe Foundation sponsors the online payment for Perl conferences in Europe. Although some of the people involved are the same, the Act team and the YAPC Europe Foundation are distinct entities. (The French Perl community has its own non-profit organization, but adding them to my already long explanation is not going to make anything clearer...)

and https://gratipay.com/cpan-io/:

The web site is free, and run on GitHub. The only costs are hosting costs, which are currently paid by the owner, Philippe Bruhat (BooK).

This tells us what your costs are, but the question is, how do you make money? Who are your customers and how do you get them to pay you? Do you make an appeal on the website itself directly to users? Do you sell sponsorships?

The answers will be similar to the above.

We don't make money with the site. We don't have customers, we have users. We have full-time jobs and do this on the side, for the benefit (if any) of the Perl community. No sponsors, or rather, we're our own sponsors, paying with our time (for the code) and our money (for the hosting).

If the gratipay team is created, we'll probably link to it from the site.

one question I didn't get an answer to is the following

The CPAN-BOOK case is a fine use for Gratipay, yes. You're basically a small consulting company working on multiple Perl-related projects. Does that sound right?

Except for the fact that I'm not actually a company, and working on these module on my spare time, for free. :-)

The fact that you've already got someone in mind whom you would consider part of your consultancy makes it all the clearer that this is a legitimate use of Gratipay. It's not uncommon for "closed" consultancies to incubate multiple products and spin them off into separate entities when they reach a critical mass. Sounds like you're proposing to do the same here, which is great! :-)

Well, I don't think any of my modules (even if some of them are used by many people) will ever grow into something bigger than themselves. Most Perl modules on CPAN are libraries, building blocks, and not full products.

OK. So, no matter what happens with the two teams already submitted, I will also submit a CPAN-BOOK team, and once it's accepted, I'll make a blog post to suggest that other CPAN authors to the same. This would enable the Perl/CPAN community to use Gratipay 2.0 as it used Gratipay 1.0, by "virtually buying [our] fellow colleagues a beer for EXCELLENT OUTSTANDING WORK ALREADY COMPLETED" (said @ribasushi).

book commented Jun 12, 2015

@book Similar questions looking at https://gratipay.com/act/:

I expect the "similar questions" are:

  • How does your team make money?

    At the moment, we don't. We all have full-time jobs, and work on it on our spare time, for the benefit of the Perl community (150+ conferences supported in the past 12 years, plus those hosted by others using the open-source code)

  • Where does the money come from in the first place?

    The absence of money comes from nowhere. Or everywhere. :-)

  • Who are your users?

    Our main users are the Perl conference organizers. They usually ping us to request that we set up a website for their conference. We then set up a svn repository or git repository for them (although they can host their own if they want), where we fetch the site layout, and the rest is handled by the tool.

    If the conference is not free, and they want to use the online payment system, we need to hook up with the appropriate third party (the YAPC Europe Foundation, the Perl Foundation, or PayPal).

    The website users are the conference attendees, but we rarely deal with them directly.

  • How do you get them to pay you?

    We don't. It's a free service, a gift to the Perl community.

The code is twelve years old now, and while it's still used today to run conferences, many users find it lacks many features. So there are some side projects (run by others than me) to modernize the code base and make it easier to add new features.

My plan with the gratipay team is to invite the main sysadmin (who actually keeps it running for our users), and the main code contributors to the current code or the next version.

The website is completely free. The online payement system is provided by a third-party.

Because one of the usefulness of a conference website is to sell the tickets, the YAPC Europe Foundation non-profit organization was set up to support the online payment system. When a conference ticket is sold a 100 €, the bank gets about 2 €, and the organizers get the full 100 €. Which means that the YAPC Europe Foundation sponsors the online payment for Perl conferences in Europe. Although some of the people involved are the same, the Act team and the YAPC Europe Foundation are distinct entities. (The French Perl community has its own non-profit organization, but adding them to my already long explanation is not going to make anything clearer...)

and https://gratipay.com/cpan-io/:

The web site is free, and run on GitHub. The only costs are hosting costs, which are currently paid by the owner, Philippe Bruhat (BooK).

This tells us what your costs are, but the question is, how do you make money? Who are your customers and how do you get them to pay you? Do you make an appeal on the website itself directly to users? Do you sell sponsorships?

The answers will be similar to the above.

We don't make money with the site. We don't have customers, we have users. We have full-time jobs and do this on the side, for the benefit (if any) of the Perl community. No sponsors, or rather, we're our own sponsors, paying with our time (for the code) and our money (for the hosting).

If the gratipay team is created, we'll probably link to it from the site.

one question I didn't get an answer to is the following

The CPAN-BOOK case is a fine use for Gratipay, yes. You're basically a small consulting company working on multiple Perl-related projects. Does that sound right?

Except for the fact that I'm not actually a company, and working on these module on my spare time, for free. :-)

The fact that you've already got someone in mind whom you would consider part of your consultancy makes it all the clearer that this is a legitimate use of Gratipay. It's not uncommon for "closed" consultancies to incubate multiple products and spin them off into separate entities when they reach a critical mass. Sounds like you're proposing to do the same here, which is great! :-)

Well, I don't think any of my modules (even if some of them are used by many people) will ever grow into something bigger than themselves. Most Perl modules on CPAN are libraries, building blocks, and not full products.

OK. So, no matter what happens with the two teams already submitted, I will also submit a CPAN-BOOK team, and once it's accepted, I'll make a blog post to suggest that other CPAN authors to the same. This would enable the Perl/CPAN community to use Gratipay 2.0 as it used Gratipay 1.0, by "virtually buying [our] fellow colleagues a beer for EXCELLENT OUTSTANDING WORK ALREADY COMPLETED" (said @ribasushi).

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espadrine Jun 12, 2015

@whit537 Shall we do it elsewhere? This issue is both crowded and slightly closed.

The donations are used to fund the servers, the TLS certificate, the domain name, and the reviewing process for contributions.

That says what revenue is used for, but the question here is "How does your team make money?"
Where does the money come from in the first place?

Shields revenue comes from donations. It doesn't have a legal entity, though. If it did, it probably would be a nonprofit, and I probably would need to read a lot more about French law on the subject.

However, given the current situation, if I need to set up a nonprofit, it will be easier for me to use a system that allows personal donations, at the expense of the possibility of sharing the workload and the donations.

Who are your users?

Those who download content from img.shields.io, use the shields library or its API.

How do you get them to pay you?

They donate if they want to keep the service running.

espadrine commented Jun 12, 2015

@whit537 Shall we do it elsewhere? This issue is both crowded and slightly closed.

The donations are used to fund the servers, the TLS certificate, the domain name, and the reviewing process for contributions.

That says what revenue is used for, but the question here is "How does your team make money?"
Where does the money come from in the first place?

Shields revenue comes from donations. It doesn't have a legal entity, though. If it did, it probably would be a nonprofit, and I probably would need to read a lot more about French law on the subject.

However, given the current situation, if I need to set up a nonprofit, it will be easier for me to use a system that allows personal donations, at the expense of the possibility of sharing the workload and the donations.

Who are your users?

Those who download content from img.shields.io, use the shields library or its API.

How do you get them to pay you?

They donate if they want to keep the service running.

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chadwhitacre Jun 18, 2015

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Shall we do it elsewhere? This issue is both crowded and slightly closed.

@espadrine Sure: #264.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 18, 2015

Shall we do it elsewhere? This issue is both crowded and slightly closed.

@espadrine Sure: #264.

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What was the decision on https://gratipay.com/northern-plains-athletics/? I never received an email one way or another.

If rejected, are the reasons given, so that a team can modify and resubmit?

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mattbk commented Jun 25, 2015

What was the decision on https://gratipay.com/northern-plains-athletics/? I never received an email one way or another.

If rejected, are the reasons given, so that a team can modify and resubmit?

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chadwhitacre Jun 25, 2015

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Decision was yes! Sorry we didn't notify, that's gratipay/gratipay.com#3564.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 25, 2015

Decision was yes! Sorry we didn't notify, that's gratipay/gratipay.com#3564.

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@mattbk The plan going forward is to have a separate ticket for each team. Any reasons pro/con will end up on that ticket. See gratipay/gratipay.com#3568.

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chadwhitacre commented Jun 25, 2015

@mattbk The plan going forward is to have a separate ticket for each team. Any reasons pro/con will end up on that ticket. See gratipay/gratipay.com#3568.

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zzzeek Aug 8, 2015

@whit537 re: "it seems that SQLAlchemy has a pretty well-established funding model outside of Gratipay", I'm not really sure what that is based on.

SQLAlchemy's "funding model" is based on:

  1. I work for a salary full time
  2. I pay for all SQLAlchemy hosting expenses directly from personal funds, answer 90% of all mailing list issues, write 95% of all code, do 100% of all releases, bug triage, web site maintenance, etc.

and...that's it! There are almost entirely no lines of code in SQLAlchemy that were paid for by anyone, I can point you to the two things that were paid: the original version of the versioning example was paid for, and a transaction replay extension which has never been released was paid for. Everything else you see in SQLAlchemy, code, docs, examples, bugfixes, tests was written for free.

Now to be fair, my current employer is a large open source company, so as of the past year, I finally can spend a small portion of my time working on SQLAlchemy and Alembic issues as part of my job. But I still have to run and fund the project entirely myself.

I'm very excited for the moment by a new Bountysource platform that offers recurring payments, as open source projects like SQLAlchemy IMO deserve to be allowed to receive monthly funding from supportive users without passing through arcane ideological hoops.

zzzeek commented Aug 8, 2015

@whit537 re: "it seems that SQLAlchemy has a pretty well-established funding model outside of Gratipay", I'm not really sure what that is based on.

SQLAlchemy's "funding model" is based on:

  1. I work for a salary full time
  2. I pay for all SQLAlchemy hosting expenses directly from personal funds, answer 90% of all mailing list issues, write 95% of all code, do 100% of all releases, bug triage, web site maintenance, etc.

and...that's it! There are almost entirely no lines of code in SQLAlchemy that were paid for by anyone, I can point you to the two things that were paid: the original version of the versioning example was paid for, and a transaction replay extension which has never been released was paid for. Everything else you see in SQLAlchemy, code, docs, examples, bugfixes, tests was written for free.

Now to be fair, my current employer is a large open source company, so as of the past year, I finally can spend a small portion of my time working on SQLAlchemy and Alembic issues as part of my job. But I still have to run and fund the project entirely myself.

I'm very excited for the moment by a new Bountysource platform that offers recurring payments, as open source projects like SQLAlchemy IMO deserve to be allowed to receive monthly funding from supportive users without passing through arcane ideological hoops.

@chadwhitacre chadwhitacre referenced this issue Aug 9, 2015

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sqlalchemy #11

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Thanks for following up, @zzzeek. For now I've copied your comments to gratipay/project-review#11. I will follow up there when I get a chance ...

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chadwhitacre commented Aug 9, 2015

Thanks for following up, @zzzeek. For now I've copied your comments to gratipay/project-review#11. I will follow up there when I get a chance ...

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