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Add rendering for public_transport=platform #435

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AndiG88 opened this Issue Mar 24, 2014 · 35 comments

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AndiG88 commented Mar 24, 2014

Edit: Okay maybe rather use it on public_transport=platform

Use the same icon as highway=bus_stop

(if you want to do more use different ones depending on bus/tram=yes/no)

It would be great if you could support the "new" public transport schema, I think one of the main reason people don't use it, is because it does not show up on the map.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:public_transport
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport

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23cpo Mar 31, 2014

public_transport=stop_position is used over 200,000 times. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/public_transport#values
I think it should be supported and get rendered.

23cpo commented Mar 31, 2014

public_transport=stop_position is used over 200,000 times. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/public_transport#values
I think it should be supported and get rendered.

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RobJN Mar 31, 2014

In the West Midlands of UK we have been mapping bus stops using highway=bus_stop at the location of the shelter/sign (i.e. on the pavement). The equivalent tag in the Public Transport schema would be public_transport=platform.

We need to be a bit careful about what we render. The worst case solution is that we end up rendering bus stops in 2 places - on the road way and where the shelter/sign/platform is. This is a Bad Idea as it will confuse people and may lead to some folks removing one instance as they may see it as duplication.

Some stats:
From Taginfo UK:

  • "bus=*" with any "public_transport" : 986 instances (assuming that all of these have both the platform and stop position mapped, as per the tag guidelines, this gives 493 bus stops)
  • "highway=bus_stop" : 219,475 instances.

From Taginfo Global:

  • "bus=*" with any "public_transport" : 251,336 instances (assuming that all of these have both the platform and stop position mapped, as per the tag guidelines, this gives 125,668 bus stops)
  • "highway=bus_stop" : 1,295,300 instances.

I would love to be able to say that we can solve this problem by having different rendering rules in different countries (depending on the dominant tag use), but this would be a nightmare to code and maintain. Worse still it would be a short term sticking plaster solution that would lead to entrenched fragmentation in OpenStreetMap.

RobJN commented Mar 31, 2014

In the West Midlands of UK we have been mapping bus stops using highway=bus_stop at the location of the shelter/sign (i.e. on the pavement). The equivalent tag in the Public Transport schema would be public_transport=platform.

We need to be a bit careful about what we render. The worst case solution is that we end up rendering bus stops in 2 places - on the road way and where the shelter/sign/platform is. This is a Bad Idea as it will confuse people and may lead to some folks removing one instance as they may see it as duplication.

Some stats:
From Taginfo UK:

  • "bus=*" with any "public_transport" : 986 instances (assuming that all of these have both the platform and stop position mapped, as per the tag guidelines, this gives 493 bus stops)
  • "highway=bus_stop" : 219,475 instances.

From Taginfo Global:

  • "bus=*" with any "public_transport" : 251,336 instances (assuming that all of these have both the platform and stop position mapped, as per the tag guidelines, this gives 125,668 bus stops)
  • "highway=bus_stop" : 1,295,300 instances.

I would love to be able to say that we can solve this problem by having different rendering rules in different countries (depending on the dominant tag use), but this would be a nightmare to code and maintain. Worse still it would be a short term sticking plaster solution that would lead to entrenched fragmentation in OpenStreetMap.

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AndiG88 Apr 1, 2014

on the road way and where the shelter/sign/platform is. This is a Bad Idea as it will confuse people and may lead to some folks removing one instance as they may see it as duplication.

And what is preventing users from doing this right now? In fact I have tagged several of my first Bus stops exactly like that, because ID shows a nice icon on the way when you put a bus_stop on it.

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/public_transport=stop_position#combinations

As you can see 100000 bus_stops are mapped on a stop position. Considering that the platform tag has been used as much it's pretty save to say that most of those stop positions (and bus_stops on them) are on the road. So this is already a problem today. There reason you don't see it is probable because people mapping just remove one.

So what about rendering a this blue dot like on tram_stop(?) on public_transport=stop_position and/or using the icon on the public_transport=platform tag? Then you don't know what to render, right? Bus or tram? So could there be a general icon like it is used in Germany? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_224.svg (not suggesting to use that one). Wouldn't that be a good idea in general to have such an icon for combined bus&tram stops? Should we use a tag like public_transport:platform=bus?

AndiG88 commented Apr 1, 2014

on the road way and where the shelter/sign/platform is. This is a Bad Idea as it will confuse people and may lead to some folks removing one instance as they may see it as duplication.

And what is preventing users from doing this right now? In fact I have tagged several of my first Bus stops exactly like that, because ID shows a nice icon on the way when you put a bus_stop on it.

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/public_transport=stop_position#combinations

As you can see 100000 bus_stops are mapped on a stop position. Considering that the platform tag has been used as much it's pretty save to say that most of those stop positions (and bus_stops on them) are on the road. So this is already a problem today. There reason you don't see it is probable because people mapping just remove one.

So what about rendering a this blue dot like on tram_stop(?) on public_transport=stop_position and/or using the icon on the public_transport=platform tag? Then you don't know what to render, right? Bus or tram? So could there be a general icon like it is used in Germany? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_224.svg (not suggesting to use that one). Wouldn't that be a good idea in general to have such an icon for combined bus&tram stops? Should we use a tag like public_transport:platform=bus?

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RobJN Apr 1, 2014

Nothing is preventing people from deleting things right now, but as you have discovered, things that are rendered draw a lot more attention (from both mappers and people who just view the Mapnik render).

Unfortunately I struggled to follow the rest of you're comment. But my point still stands. Take a look at this area:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.93487/6.96162

It already has a mix of where the bus icon is rendered - some on the road, some beside the road. The concern is that we end up rendering some bus stops on both.

I would suggest that a good first step would be to promote consistent use of the highway=bus_stop tag (for tagging the bus shelter/sign) and then you could ask for public_transport=platform with bus=yes to be rendered the same as highway=bus_stop. Although I expect that you'd feel differently about this.

(Note: My comment is all about buses. As the public_transport tag is for all forms of transport, then you'd have to consider each one separately as the rendering implications of each may be different).

RobJN commented Apr 1, 2014

Nothing is preventing people from deleting things right now, but as you have discovered, things that are rendered draw a lot more attention (from both mappers and people who just view the Mapnik render).

Unfortunately I struggled to follow the rest of you're comment. But my point still stands. Take a look at this area:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.93487/6.96162

It already has a mix of where the bus icon is rendered - some on the road, some beside the road. The concern is that we end up rendering some bus stops on both.

I would suggest that a good first step would be to promote consistent use of the highway=bus_stop tag (for tagging the bus shelter/sign) and then you could ask for public_transport=platform with bus=yes to be rendered the same as highway=bus_stop. Although I expect that you'd feel differently about this.

(Note: My comment is all about buses. As the public_transport tag is for all forms of transport, then you'd have to consider each one separately as the rendering implications of each may be different).

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AndiG88 Apr 1, 2014

My point is simply how many bus stops do we see with two icons for the exact same stop? Pretty much zero. Why? Because people see it on the map and fix it. That's why I don't see why it would be any different if a public platform get rendered the same way, too.

I would suggest that a good first step would be to promote consistent use of the highway=bus_stop tag (for tagging the bus shelter/sign)

But how is that going to happen? There are over 100k that are tagged wrong as they are on a stop position and probably a lot more without such a tag.
And I have been applying the new schema to a lot of stops in German recently and for most stops the last edit was 3-5 years ago. Why would anybody think about that or change it? I theory I completely agree, but in reality nobody is going to fix a quarter of a million bus stops that have been like that for years. (Not to mention that without local knowledge you don't always know on which side the platform it belongs).

public_transport=platform with bus=yes to be rendered the same as highway=bus_stop. Although I expect that you'd feel differently about this.

That part is fine. I mean then that bus tag would have to be put there in addition because right now it is supposed to go into the stop position.

AndiG88 commented Apr 1, 2014

My point is simply how many bus stops do we see with two icons for the exact same stop? Pretty much zero. Why? Because people see it on the map and fix it. That's why I don't see why it would be any different if a public platform get rendered the same way, too.

I would suggest that a good first step would be to promote consistent use of the highway=bus_stop tag (for tagging the bus shelter/sign)

But how is that going to happen? There are over 100k that are tagged wrong as they are on a stop position and probably a lot more without such a tag.
And I have been applying the new schema to a lot of stops in German recently and for most stops the last edit was 3-5 years ago. Why would anybody think about that or change it? I theory I completely agree, but in reality nobody is going to fix a quarter of a million bus stops that have been like that for years. (Not to mention that without local knowledge you don't always know on which side the platform it belongs).

public_transport=platform with bus=yes to be rendered the same as highway=bus_stop. Although I expect that you'd feel differently about this.

That part is fine. I mean then that bus tag would have to be put there in addition because right now it is supposed to go into the stop position.

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RobJN Apr 1, 2014

Since 25th April 2008 the (English language) highway=bus_stop wiki page has clearly stated that the highway=bus_stop tag should be mapped beside the road. As such the expectation is that the bus stop is rendered beside the road. This request would change this convention to render bus stops as part of the road's way. A change that is bound to lead to duplication of the rendered icon and confusion amongst mappers and map users.

P.s. I'm not sure when the public_transport schema came about (the wiki suggests later), but really it doesn't matter. What matters is that a tagging issue does not become a rendering issue. This is not a simple fix and regrettably shows the problem of new tagging schemas that are not backwards compatible. Hopefully we can learn from this and make better decisions in the future as it is a great shame that we have this mess.

RobJN commented Apr 1, 2014

Since 25th April 2008 the (English language) highway=bus_stop wiki page has clearly stated that the highway=bus_stop tag should be mapped beside the road. As such the expectation is that the bus stop is rendered beside the road. This request would change this convention to render bus stops as part of the road's way. A change that is bound to lead to duplication of the rendered icon and confusion amongst mappers and map users.

P.s. I'm not sure when the public_transport schema came about (the wiki suggests later), but really it doesn't matter. What matters is that a tagging issue does not become a rendering issue. This is not a simple fix and regrettably shows the problem of new tagging schemas that are not backwards compatible. Hopefully we can learn from this and make better decisions in the future as it is a great shame that we have this mess.

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AndiG88 Apr 1, 2014

highway=bus_stop Wiki (old): Note that highway=bus_stop is also occasionally used to mark the position on the carriageway where the vehicle stops, rather than the place where the passengers wait. [...]
The highway=bus_stop tag is widely used to identify the position where passengers wait for a bus beside the carriageway, however there is not complete agreement within the community on this matter, and some users advocate using highway=bus_stop as a node within the highway=* at the place where the vehicle stops.

For me that is everything, but clear. It even repeats it.

What matters is that a tagging issue does not become a rendering issue.

The problem is that it does. Your best tagging scheme is not going to be used if it does not show up on the map, but the old alternative does.
If building=commercial + type=bread would render a bakery on the map, but shop=bakery wouldn't which tag scheme do you think would be more common, especially if ID tagged you the first one if you search for bakery?

of new tagging schemas that are not backwards compatible.

But that isn't because public=transport is bad, that's because highway=bus_stop is a mess and there was never an agreement how to use it exactly. As you said before if they were all on the side of the road you could apply the same icon on public_transport=platform + bus=yes right away.

AndiG88 commented Apr 1, 2014

highway=bus_stop Wiki (old): Note that highway=bus_stop is also occasionally used to mark the position on the carriageway where the vehicle stops, rather than the place where the passengers wait. [...]
The highway=bus_stop tag is widely used to identify the position where passengers wait for a bus beside the carriageway, however there is not complete agreement within the community on this matter, and some users advocate using highway=bus_stop as a node within the highway=* at the place where the vehicle stops.

For me that is everything, but clear. It even repeats it.

What matters is that a tagging issue does not become a rendering issue.

The problem is that it does. Your best tagging scheme is not going to be used if it does not show up on the map, but the old alternative does.
If building=commercial + type=bread would render a bakery on the map, but shop=bakery wouldn't which tag scheme do you think would be more common, especially if ID tagged you the first one if you search for bakery?

of new tagging schemas that are not backwards compatible.

But that isn't because public=transport is bad, that's because highway=bus_stop is a mess and there was never an agreement how to use it exactly. As you said before if they were all on the side of the road you could apply the same icon on public_transport=platform + bus=yes right away.

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dieterdreist Apr 1, 2014

Am 02/apr/2014 um 01:23 schrieb AndiG88 notifications@github.com:

you could apply the same icon on public_transport=platform + bus=yes right away.

+1, I suggest we do this and fix problems then in the map

dieterdreist commented Apr 1, 2014

Am 02/apr/2014 um 01:23 schrieb AndiG88 notifications@github.com:

you could apply the same icon on public_transport=platform + bus=yes right away.

+1, I suggest we do this and fix problems then in the map

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gravitystorm Apr 2, 2014

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there was never an agreement how to use it exactly.

@AndiG88 Yes there has. @RobJN has pointed out that there's been clear agreement on how to use highway=bus_stop for almost 6 years. If you keep refusing to believe this, it inclines me to disregard the rest of this discussion.

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gravitystorm commented Apr 2, 2014

there was never an agreement how to use it exactly.

@AndiG88 Yes there has. @RobJN has pointed out that there's been clear agreement on how to use highway=bus_stop for almost 6 years. If you keep refusing to believe this, it inclines me to disregard the rest of this discussion.

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AndiG88 Apr 2, 2014

I don't have a problem if that's how it is, but until Rob changed the wiki yesterday it stated twice (see my quote above) that the tag is sometimes used on the way and did not say that is a wrong usage. What I would have expected if there is a 6 year old agreement is that it is worded like it is now.

Also if that is the agreement, then I guess there should be no problem to apply the same icon on public_transport=platform+ bus=yes as that exactly matches?

AndiG88 commented Apr 2, 2014

I don't have a problem if that's how it is, but until Rob changed the wiki yesterday it stated twice (see my quote above) that the tag is sometimes used on the way and did not say that is a wrong usage. What I would have expected if there is a 6 year old agreement is that it is worded like it is now.

Also if that is the agreement, then I guess there should be no problem to apply the same icon on public_transport=platform+ bus=yes as that exactly matches?

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RobJN Apr 2, 2014

I did change the wiki page yesterday, yes. Why? Because I looked through
the pages history and decided that PeterITOs change - although good in some
areas - weakened the very clear message that highway=bus_stop is for beside
the road. New tagging schemas can be mentioned, but shouldn't be at the
cost of clear info on the existing tag page.

I'm glad that we are coming to the same conclusion - encourage the proper
use of highway=bus_stop and render public transport platform with bus=yes
in the same way.

For other transport modes, stop position may be ok. For buses use platform.

On 2 Apr 2014 09:31, "AndiG88" notifications@github.com wrote:

I don't have a problem if that's how it is, but until Rob changed the wiki
yesterday it stated twice (see my quote above) that the tag is sometimes
used on the way and did not say that is a wrong usage. What I would have
expected if there is a 6 year old agreement is that it is worded like it is
now http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_stop.

Also if that is the agreement, then I guess there should be no problem to
apply the same icon on public_transport=platform + bus=yes as that exactly
matches?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.[image]

RobJN commented Apr 2, 2014

I did change the wiki page yesterday, yes. Why? Because I looked through
the pages history and decided that PeterITOs change - although good in some
areas - weakened the very clear message that highway=bus_stop is for beside
the road. New tagging schemas can be mentioned, but shouldn't be at the
cost of clear info on the existing tag page.

I'm glad that we are coming to the same conclusion - encourage the proper
use of highway=bus_stop and render public transport platform with bus=yes
in the same way.

For other transport modes, stop position may be ok. For buses use platform.

On 2 Apr 2014 09:31, "AndiG88" notifications@github.com wrote:

I don't have a problem if that's how it is, but until Rob changed the wiki
yesterday it stated twice (see my quote above) that the tag is sometimes
used on the way and did not say that is a wrong usage. What I would have
expected if there is a 6 year old agreement is that it is worded like it is
now http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbus_stop.

Also if that is the agreement, then I guess there should be no problem to
apply the same icon on public_transport=platform + bus=yes as that exactly
matches?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.[image]

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Rovastar Apr 2, 2014

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@AndiG88

"Also if that is the agreement, then I guess there should be no problem to apply the same icon on public_transport=platform+ bus=yes as that exactly matches?"

Irrespective of the validity of the bus stop discussion I am rolling out my stock answer here if these tags are not stored in our Carto database they will unlikely to be added to the map.

We are not making schema changes to the database yet to accommodate this. And to my knowledge we do not have a field for "bus" or probably "public_transport" hence there this will not be done for a while even if it was a valid suggestion.

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Rovastar commented Apr 2, 2014

@AndiG88

"Also if that is the agreement, then I guess there should be no problem to apply the same icon on public_transport=platform+ bus=yes as that exactly matches?"

Irrespective of the validity of the bus stop discussion I am rolling out my stock answer here if these tags are not stored in our Carto database they will unlikely to be added to the map.

We are not making schema changes to the database yet to accommodate this. And to my knowledge we do not have a field for "bus" or probably "public_transport" hence there this will not be done for a while even if it was a valid suggestion.

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dieterdreist Apr 2, 2014

2014-04-02 15:39 GMT+02:00 Rovastar notifications@github.com:

I am rolling out my stock answer here if these tags are not stored in our
Carto database they will unlikely to be added to the map.

maybe this was already mentioned and/or replied to, sorry if so, what about
using hstore datatype for the db? The Germans are doing this with a custom
scheme that has very few columns because it keeps most of the tags only in
hstore and has views for them. From what I know the performance penalty is
not so big (10% or less). It would give us a whole lot of flexibility and
details out from the osm db which as it stands now is not available for
rendering.
There is a description here:
http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/mapnik-german/README(not
sure if up to date, but it is with hstore).
The default.style is here:
http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/mapnik-german/views/default.style

dieterdreist commented Apr 2, 2014

2014-04-02 15:39 GMT+02:00 Rovastar notifications@github.com:

I am rolling out my stock answer here if these tags are not stored in our
Carto database they will unlikely to be added to the map.

maybe this was already mentioned and/or replied to, sorry if so, what about
using hstore datatype for the db? The Germans are doing this with a custom
scheme that has very few columns because it keeps most of the tags only in
hstore and has views for them. From what I know the performance penalty is
not so big (10% or less). It would give us a whole lot of flexibility and
details out from the osm db which as it stands now is not available for
rendering.
There is a description here:
http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/mapnik-german/README(not
sure if up to date, but it is with hstore).
The default.style is here:
http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/mapnik-german/views/default.style

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From what I know the performance penalty is not so big (10% or less).

The rendering performance penalty for --hstore/-k is a 0.24% speed decrease if the hstore column is not used.

The rendering performance penalty for the mapnik german .style + hstore is substantial, at 4.7% (unpublished results with views).

However, this misses the point for two reasons.

  1. Hstore is a way to reduce future schema changes. It doesn't get us away from this one, as the change to hstore is a schema change itself. My read of the current situation is that schema changes will be a 3.0 change, and probably involve a slimming down of the .style file, the use of --hstore, and substantial query rewrites, backed up by benchmarking.
  2. We have public_transport in the database already.
Collaborator

pnorman commented Apr 3, 2014

From what I know the performance penalty is not so big (10% or less).

The rendering performance penalty for --hstore/-k is a 0.24% speed decrease if the hstore column is not used.

The rendering performance penalty for the mapnik german .style + hstore is substantial, at 4.7% (unpublished results with views).

However, this misses the point for two reasons.

  1. Hstore is a way to reduce future schema changes. It doesn't get us away from this one, as the change to hstore is a schema change itself. My read of the current situation is that schema changes will be a 3.0 change, and probably involve a slimming down of the .style file, the use of --hstore, and substantial query rewrites, backed up by benchmarking.
  2. We have public_transport in the database already.
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dieterdreist Apr 3, 2014

2014-04-03 8:27 GMT+02:00 Paul Norman notifications@github.com:

Paul, it is clear that hstore would mean a significant schema change
including re-importing. I just raised this, because we are facing the
problem of missing column since ever and every now and then, and hstore
would be a solution to this, giving us really all the flexibility we will
need for rendering all kind of strange tags (as long as objects get
imported, i.e. have at least one tag that makes them interesting)

We have public_transporthttps://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/openstreetmap-carto.style#L126in
the database already.

but as I understand we don't have "bus" currently so we don't know whether
the platform is a bus_stop or on a train station, right?

dieterdreist commented Apr 3, 2014

2014-04-03 8:27 GMT+02:00 Paul Norman notifications@github.com:

Paul, it is clear that hstore would mean a significant schema change
including re-importing. I just raised this, because we are facing the
problem of missing column since ever and every now and then, and hstore
would be a solution to this, giving us really all the flexibility we will
need for rendering all kind of strange tags (as long as objects get
imported, i.e. have at least one tag that makes them interesting)

We have public_transporthttps://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/openstreetmap-carto.style#L126in
the database already.

but as I understand we don't have "bus" currently so we don't know whether
the platform is a bus_stop or on a train station, right?

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AndiG88 Apr 3, 2014

Is there any key where you could put the information what kind of bus stop that is?

Otherwise what about using a general icon? In Germany for example all stops just have an H, is there some kind of international icon for that?

AndiG88 commented Apr 3, 2014

Is there any key where you could put the information what kind of bus stop that is?

Otherwise what about using a general icon? In Germany for example all stops just have an H, is there some kind of international icon for that?

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Rovastar Apr 4, 2014

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If suddenly we had a load of H's displayed on the map I would feel left out not owning a helicopter. ;-)

@pnorman I should have checked and yes we do have public transport. It was more about I knew we didn't have bus = key which we would need to render this correctly like dieterdreit pointed out

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Rovastar commented Apr 4, 2014

If suddenly we had a load of H's displayed on the map I would feel left out not owning a helicopter. ;-)

@pnorman I should have checked and yes we do have public transport. It was more about I knew we didn't have bus = key which we would need to render this correctly like dieterdreit pointed out

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pnorman Apr 10, 2014

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For what it's worth, I'm 👎 on rendering public_transport=platform + bus=yes, regardless of the schema change issues. The mapper feedback loop is important, and I don't think encouraging what is a non-standard less common tag is a good idea, but the call on that is up to @gravitystorm.

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pnorman commented Apr 10, 2014

For what it's worth, I'm 👎 on rendering public_transport=platform + bus=yes, regardless of the schema change issues. The mapper feedback loop is important, and I don't think encouraging what is a non-standard less common tag is a good idea, but the call on that is up to @gravitystorm.

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AndiG88 Apr 10, 2014

and I don't think encouraging what is a non-standard less common tag is a good idea

So... have you ever talked with the JOSM developers about this?

AndiG88 commented Apr 10, 2014

and I don't think encouraging what is a non-standard less common tag is a good idea

So... have you ever talked with the JOSM developers about this?

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I did some example renderings for bus stops with public_transport=platform and bus=yes instead of highway=bus_stop to get an idea how it would look.
While doing this I found the following issues:

  • At least in my region the tagging of bus stops is very inconsistent. Sometimes it's mapped as public_transport=stop_position, sometimes as public_transport=platform and sometimes as an extra node. This leads to doubled bus stop points, when not removing the highway=bus_stop rendering.
  • Not all platforms where a bus stops do have the bus=yes key.
  • I don't get the symbol rendered on platforms mapped as a way. Any ideas of the experts how to do this?
  • It does look a bit strange on combined tram and bus stops:
    bus_stop_tram
    bus_stop_tram2
    bus_stop_tram3
  • Showing the platform as a bus stop is also inconsistent with the current rendering of railway stations and tram stops, where the icon is usually either in the middle of the station or on the tracks.

For now it's definitive not a good idea to remove the support of highway=bus_stop as most bus stops are not correctly mapped in the new scheme yet. Rendering the platform as bus stop will lead to lot's of doubled bus stops at the beginning, but these will probably be removed by mappers over time.

Some more pictures for bus stations and platforms as an area:
bus_station
bus_stop_area

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sb12 commented Jun 21, 2014

I did some example renderings for bus stops with public_transport=platform and bus=yes instead of highway=bus_stop to get an idea how it would look.
While doing this I found the following issues:

  • At least in my region the tagging of bus stops is very inconsistent. Sometimes it's mapped as public_transport=stop_position, sometimes as public_transport=platform and sometimes as an extra node. This leads to doubled bus stop points, when not removing the highway=bus_stop rendering.
  • Not all platforms where a bus stops do have the bus=yes key.
  • I don't get the symbol rendered on platforms mapped as a way. Any ideas of the experts how to do this?
  • It does look a bit strange on combined tram and bus stops:
    bus_stop_tram
    bus_stop_tram2
    bus_stop_tram3
  • Showing the platform as a bus stop is also inconsistent with the current rendering of railway stations and tram stops, where the icon is usually either in the middle of the station or on the tracks.

For now it's definitive not a good idea to remove the support of highway=bus_stop as most bus stops are not correctly mapped in the new scheme yet. Rendering the platform as bus stop will lead to lot's of doubled bus stops at the beginning, but these will probably be removed by mappers over time.

Some more pictures for bus stations and platforms as an area:
bus_station
bus_stop_area

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dieterdreist Jun 21, 2014

Am 21/giu/2014 um 14:37 schrieb sb12 notifications@github.com:

At least in my region the tagging of bus stops is very inconsistent. Sometimes it's mapped as public_transport=stop_position, sometimes as public_transport=platform and sometimes as an extra node. This leads to doubled bus stop points, when not removing the highway=bus_stop rendering.

the complete mapping would be both, platform and stop position with key public_transport while the stop position with highway bus stop is implicit (but mapping isn't completely consistent neither there)

I don't get the symbol rendered on platforms mapped as a way. Any ideas of the experts how to do this?

you could do this similar to highway shields but with a lot of spacing to avoid duplicates?

Showing the platform as a bus stop is also inconsistent with the current rendering of railway stations and tram stops, where the icon is usually either in the middle of the station or on the tracks.

IMHO the middle of the station is similar to the middle of a bus stop, no inconsistency

For now it's definitive not a good idea to remove the support of highway=bus_stop

+1

dieterdreist commented Jun 21, 2014

Am 21/giu/2014 um 14:37 schrieb sb12 notifications@github.com:

At least in my region the tagging of bus stops is very inconsistent. Sometimes it's mapped as public_transport=stop_position, sometimes as public_transport=platform and sometimes as an extra node. This leads to doubled bus stop points, when not removing the highway=bus_stop rendering.

the complete mapping would be both, platform and stop position with key public_transport while the stop position with highway bus stop is implicit (but mapping isn't completely consistent neither there)

I don't get the symbol rendered on platforms mapped as a way. Any ideas of the experts how to do this?

you could do this similar to highway shields but with a lot of spacing to avoid duplicates?

Showing the platform as a bus stop is also inconsistent with the current rendering of railway stations and tram stops, where the icon is usually either in the middle of the station or on the tracks.

IMHO the middle of the station is similar to the middle of a bus stop, no inconsistency

For now it's definitive not a good idea to remove the support of highway=bus_stop

+1

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At least in my region the tagging of bus stops is very inconsistent. Sometimes it's mapped as public_transport=stop_position, sometimes as public_transport=platform and sometimes as an extra node. This leads to doubled bus stop points, when not removing the highway=bus_stop rendering.

the complete mapping would be both, platform and stop position with key public_transport while the stop position with highway bus stop is implicit (but mapping isn't completely consistent neither there)

sorry, what I meant was the node where the highway=bus_stop is mapped.

you could do this similar to highway shields but with a lot of spacing to avoid duplicates?

Thank you this worked. Some examples:

bus_stop_way
bus_stop_way2

Showing the platform as a bus stop is also inconsistent with the current rendering of railway stations and tram stops, where the icon is usually either in the middle of the station or on the tracks.

IMHO the middle of the station is similar to the middle of a bus stop, no inconsistency

Yes, but with this approach we do render the bus stop symbols on the platform and not in the middle of the bus stop, while we render the railway and tram stop symbols in the middle of the station and not on the platforms.

If we wanted to be consistent with railway=station and railway=tram_stop etc. we should render one bus symbol for the complete stop in the middle of the bus stop/bus station.

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sb12 commented Jun 21, 2014

At least in my region the tagging of bus stops is very inconsistent. Sometimes it's mapped as public_transport=stop_position, sometimes as public_transport=platform and sometimes as an extra node. This leads to doubled bus stop points, when not removing the highway=bus_stop rendering.

the complete mapping would be both, platform and stop position with key public_transport while the stop position with highway bus stop is implicit (but mapping isn't completely consistent neither there)

sorry, what I meant was the node where the highway=bus_stop is mapped.

you could do this similar to highway shields but with a lot of spacing to avoid duplicates?

Thank you this worked. Some examples:

bus_stop_way
bus_stop_way2

Showing the platform as a bus stop is also inconsistent with the current rendering of railway stations and tram stops, where the icon is usually either in the middle of the station or on the tracks.

IMHO the middle of the station is similar to the middle of a bus stop, no inconsistency

Yes, but with this approach we do render the bus stop symbols on the platform and not in the middle of the bus stop, while we render the railway and tram stop symbols in the middle of the station and not on the platforms.

If we wanted to be consistent with railway=station and railway=tram_stop etc. we should render one bus symbol for the complete stop in the middle of the bus stop/bus station.

@matthijsmelissen matthijsmelissen added this to the New features milestone Aug 18, 2014

@matthijsmelissen matthijsmelissen changed the title from Render public_transport=stop_position to Add rendering for public_transport=stop_position Sep 24, 2014

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public_transport tag is available in the database, but bus tag and others tags specifying type of stop_position are not. So currently it is impossible to check whatever element is a bus stop. To replace current style, without losing ability do display bus/tram/etc stops in a different ways database change is necessary

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matkoniecz commented Oct 11, 2014

public_transport tag is available in the database, but bus tag and others tags specifying type of stop_position are not. So currently it is impossible to check whatever element is a bus stop. To replace current style, without losing ability do display bus/tram/etc stops in a different ways database change is necessary

@matkoniecz matkoniecz added this to the 3.x - Needs upgrade to mapnik or openstreetmap-carto.style milestone Oct 11, 2014

@matkoniecz matkoniecz removed this from the New features milestone Oct 11, 2014

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For now it's definitive not a good idea to remove the support of highway=bus_stop as most bus stops are not correctly mapped in the new scheme yet.

highway=bus_stop is not incorrect, so it's unlikely we will ever remove it.

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pnorman commented Oct 13, 2014

For now it's definitive not a good idea to remove the support of highway=bus_stop as most bus stops are not correctly mapped in the new scheme yet.

highway=bus_stop is not incorrect, so it's unlikely we will ever remove it.

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gileri Nov 3, 2014

highway=bus_stop is not incorrect, so it's unlikely we will ever remove it.

Not incorrect, but badly defined. It can both mean a stop position on the road or a platform. And it's needlessly specific to buses stop, as most features described in the "new" Public Transport scheme can be applied to all public ground transportation.

gileri commented Nov 3, 2014

highway=bus_stop is not incorrect, so it's unlikely we will ever remove it.

Not incorrect, but badly defined. It can both mean a stop position on the road or a platform. And it's needlessly specific to buses stop, as most features described in the "new" Public Transport scheme can be applied to all public ground transportation.

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dieterdreist Nov 3, 2014

2014-11-03 17:07 GMT+01:00 Eric G. notifications@github.com:

Not incorrect, but badly defined. It can both mean a stop position on the
road or a platform.

AFAIK most mappers use it to mark the position of the pole on the bus stop
("platform" is something I'd expect at a station, not on a small bus stop,
so that's slightly missleading as well)
so you can project this to the nearest road (with the route on it) and get
the stop position implicitly. Not that it would matter in any instance of
real bus stop I have ever seen.

And it's needlessly specific to buses stop, as most features described in
the "new" Public Transport scheme can be applied to all public ground
transportation.

being specific can also be seen as an advantage, in many fields of osm
specific keys have been used historically (e.g. village green, greenfield,
brownfield, building=church vs. building=chapel), while the new public
transport scheme is so generic that we don't even know if something is a
bus stop or maybe a tram stop? (in our current rendering db). In this case
there's no real advantage in having to map and later parse 2 or 3 generic
tags to get to the same information you can get from 1 specific tag.

dieterdreist commented Nov 3, 2014

2014-11-03 17:07 GMT+01:00 Eric G. notifications@github.com:

Not incorrect, but badly defined. It can both mean a stop position on the
road or a platform.

AFAIK most mappers use it to mark the position of the pole on the bus stop
("platform" is something I'd expect at a station, not on a small bus stop,
so that's slightly missleading as well)
so you can project this to the nearest road (with the route on it) and get
the stop position implicitly. Not that it would matter in any instance of
real bus stop I have ever seen.

And it's needlessly specific to buses stop, as most features described in
the "new" Public Transport scheme can be applied to all public ground
transportation.

being specific can also be seen as an advantage, in many fields of osm
specific keys have been used historically (e.g. village green, greenfield,
brownfield, building=church vs. building=chapel), while the new public
transport scheme is so generic that we don't even know if something is a
bus stop or maybe a tram stop? (in our current rendering db). In this case
there's no real advantage in having to map and later parse 2 or 3 generic
tags to get to the same information you can get from 1 specific tag.

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kocio-pl Mar 17, 2015

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I think we should drop rendering public_transport=stop_position, because it's meant just for routing (and it's very helpful, because we can make real time semi-automatic updates of routes here in Warsaw!). If we want to see something people really use, we have public_transport=platform tag (or other kind of platforms etc).

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kocio-pl commented Mar 17, 2015

I think we should drop rendering public_transport=stop_position, because it's meant just for routing (and it's very helpful, because we can make real time semi-automatic updates of routes here in Warsaw!). If we want to see something people really use, we have public_transport=platform tag (or other kind of platforms etc).

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 17.03.2015 um 06:23 schrieb kocio-pl:

I think we should drop rendering public_transport=stop_position,
because it's meant just for routing (and it's very helpful, because
we can make real time semi-automatic updates of routes here in
Warsaw!).

Fully agree. Same here in Bern with BERNMOBIL using OSM for their mobile
app *

If we want to see something people really use, we have
public_transport=platform tag (or other kind of platforms etc).

And yes, rendering of public_transport=platform as a replacement of
public_transport=stop_position would be very nice and helpful for
browser users of osm.org

cheeers, Andreas

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#435 (comment).


Andreas Bürki

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AnBuKu commented Mar 17, 2015

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 17.03.2015 um 06:23 schrieb kocio-pl:

I think we should drop rendering public_transport=stop_position,
because it's meant just for routing (and it's very helpful, because
we can make real time semi-automatic updates of routes here in
Warsaw!).

Fully agree. Same here in Bern with BERNMOBIL using OSM for their mobile
app *

If we want to see something people really use, we have
public_transport=platform tag (or other kind of platforms etc).

And yes, rendering of public_transport=platform as a replacement of
public_transport=stop_position would be very nice and helpful for
browser users of osm.org

cheeers, Andreas

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#435 (comment).


Andreas Bürki

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ED:A5:F3:60:70:8B:4C:16:44:18:96:AE:67:B9:CA:77:AE:DA:83:11
GnuPG - GPG fingerprint:
5DA7 5F48 25BD D2D7 E488 05DF 5A99 A321 7E42 0227
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVB71DAAoJEFqZoyF+QgInebsH/ArTTG319IZsozn4Cpcox1nb
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As far as I can see, this was tagged incorrectly as 'Needs upgrade to osm2pgsql'.

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matthijsmelissen commented Apr 28, 2015

As far as I can see, this was tagged incorrectly as 'Needs upgrade to osm2pgsql'.

@matthijsmelissen matthijsmelissen modified the milestones: Bugs and improvements, 3.x - Needs upgrade to openstreetmap-carto.style Apr 28, 2015

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@math1985

public_transport tag is available in the database, but bus tag and others tags specifying type of stop_position are not. So currently it is impossible to check whatever element is a bus/tram/etc stop. The only available information is that it is some sort of stop position for a public transport.

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matkoniecz commented Apr 28, 2015

@math1985

public_transport tag is available in the database, but bus tag and others tags specifying type of stop_position are not. So currently it is impossible to check whatever element is a bus/tram/etc stop. The only available information is that it is some sort of stop position for a public transport.

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Don't we need bus= (and other keys) in the database?

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HolgerJeromin commented Apr 28, 2015

Don't we need bus= (and other keys) in the database?

@matthijsmelissen matthijsmelissen modified the milestones: 3.x - Needs upgrade to openstreetmap-carto.style, Bugs and improvements Apr 28, 2015

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Re-added milestone.

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matthijsmelissen commented Apr 28, 2015

Re-added milestone.

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d1g Mar 21, 2016

@AndiG88 Yes there has. @RobJN has pointed out that there's been clear agreement on how to use highway=bus_stop for almost 6 years. If you keep refusing to believe this, it inclines me to disregard the rest of this discussion.

and

For what it's worth, I'm 👎 on rendering public_transport=platform + bus=yes, regardless of the schema change issues. The mapper feedback loop is important, and I don't think encouraging what is a non-standard less common tag is a good idea,

They kept only for that "mapper feedback loop". And data consumers use public_transport=* because they can get meaningful data (4 separate tags), not randomly placed highway=bus_stop or highway=platform which pretend to cover 3-4 objects at once.

If all software functions, nobody cares about tagging.

And no, this isn't "a non-standard tag" but one of 4 ways to mark a PT http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport#Stop (s)

Which was approved: 83 approve the proposal, 6 oppose the proposal.

If you want 83 people to respect your opinion, don't neglect fact that this is hugely supported tag/proposal within OSM community.

And if @AndiG88 and @gravitystorm have a short memory on approved tags (not random tags like highway=platform or highway=bus_stop that were defined despite agreement on highway=*):

a highway=* key reserved for "highway=* should be changed to importance for the road grid (hierarchical position in the interconnecting network) instead of physical attributes. " (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Highway_key_voting_importance)

d1g commented Mar 21, 2016

@AndiG88 Yes there has. @RobJN has pointed out that there's been clear agreement on how to use highway=bus_stop for almost 6 years. If you keep refusing to believe this, it inclines me to disregard the rest of this discussion.

and

For what it's worth, I'm 👎 on rendering public_transport=platform + bus=yes, regardless of the schema change issues. The mapper feedback loop is important, and I don't think encouraging what is a non-standard less common tag is a good idea,

They kept only for that "mapper feedback loop". And data consumers use public_transport=* because they can get meaningful data (4 separate tags), not randomly placed highway=bus_stop or highway=platform which pretend to cover 3-4 objects at once.

If all software functions, nobody cares about tagging.

And no, this isn't "a non-standard tag" but one of 4 ways to mark a PT http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport#Stop (s)

Which was approved: 83 approve the proposal, 6 oppose the proposal.

If you want 83 people to respect your opinion, don't neglect fact that this is hugely supported tag/proposal within OSM community.

And if @AndiG88 and @gravitystorm have a short memory on approved tags (not random tags like highway=platform or highway=bus_stop that were defined despite agreement on highway=*):

a highway=* key reserved for "highway=* should be changed to importance for the road grid (hierarchical position in the interconnecting network) instead of physical attributes. " (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Highway_key_voting_importance)

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d1g Mar 21, 2016

Please rename issue to public_transport=platform, per author request:

Edit: Okay maybe rather use it on public_transport=platform

d1g commented Mar 21, 2016

Please rename issue to public_transport=platform, per author request:

Edit: Okay maybe rather use it on public_transport=platform

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per author request

Creator of an issue may edit title of the issue.

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matkoniecz commented Mar 21, 2016

per author request

Creator of an issue may edit title of the issue.

@kocio-pl kocio-pl changed the title from Add rendering for public_transport=stop_position to Add rendering for public_transport=platform Jul 23, 2017

@kocio-pl kocio-pl self-assigned this Jul 23, 2017

@kocio-pl kocio-pl referenced a pull request that will close this issue May 13, 2018

Open

Adding rendering for public_transport=platform [WIP] #3232

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