Cursive attachment intermixed with mark attachment is different from Uniscribe

[behdad]

Uniscribe seems to allow cursive attachment on marks. We don't. Enabling it is not as easy as changing
CursivePosFormat1::apply(), as currently we do deferrred mark attachment but cursive is immediate. So we get wrong results.

Test font attached in ttx format. Here's what we get currently:

$ ./hb-unicode-encode 0B1F 0B4D 0B1A 0B4D 0B1A | hb-shape NotoSansOriya-Regular.ttf.subset
[ttaorya=0+1307|casubscriptorya=0@-242,104+0|casubscriptnarroworya=0+487]

Here's what Uniscribe gets:

$ ./hb-unicode-encode 0B1F 0B4D 0B1A 0B4D 0B1A | hb-shape NotoSansOriya-Regular.ttf.subset --shaper uniscribe
[ttaorya=0+1307|casubscriptorya=0@-242,104+-211|casubscriptnarroworya=0+487]

Here's what we get if I just allow marks in CursivePosFormat1::apply():

$ ./hb-unicode-encode 0B1F 0B4D 0B1A 0B4D 0B1A | hb-shape NotoSansOriya-Regular.ttf.subset
[ttaorya=0+1307|casubscriptorya=0@-242,104+1076|casubscriptnarroworya=0@20,104+507]

Note that the Uniscribe output looks wrong to me. The font has same y anchor point in the cursive for the last two glyphs in our sequence, so their y position should align. But looks like Uniscribe is not doing that. So, I'm thinking that Uniscribe is also doing some things deferred, but in another order (doing cursive before mark attachment for example).

At any rate, I don't think we need to fix this necessarily. Just documenting it here.
NotoSansOriya-Regular.ttf.txt

[behdad]

Note that the Uniscribe output looks wrong to me. The font has same y anchor point in the cursive for the last two glyphs in our sequence, so their y position should align. But looks like Uniscribe is not doing that. So, I'm thinking that Uniscribe is also doing some things deferred, but in another order (doing cursive before mark attachment for example).

Apparently lookup 4 is moving the first mark upwards. We apply cursive connections late; but Uniscribe applies them immediately, as such it doesn't move the second mark up while we do. Not sure how to resolve this. But at least now we know what's going on and can reconsider this.

[behdad]

Here's a note from Jelle about how to reproduce this with shipping Noto fonts:

---

I think you should test with the shipping font. But it differs from the
test font.

The shipping font will use spacing marks with cursive attachment only if
the sequence passes through rules that do not contain combinations where
cursive attachment may lead to the syllable as a whole getting a decrease
of advance width. So the original test combination tta-ca-ca, which has a
base with a central anchor for mark attachment would use mark-to-mark. If
you add a third ca-subscript then it is safe and a spacing mark is used
with cursive attachment. With pa-ca-ca, there is no problem and a spacing
mark can be used for the second already.

So if the sequence is tta-ca-ca-ca

• GSUB replaces second (and third) subscript by a glyph that is lower.
• The first subscript attaches with mark-to-base, moving in x only
• The second subscript attaches to the first mark-to-mark moving in x only
• The third attaches with cursive attachment moving in x only
• A final context rule moves the first subscript up by 104 units in the
  regular

In the original test font the second ca used cursive attachment already.

---

[khaledhosny]

No sure if it is related, but I had noticed that if I have my kerning lookups (and probably anything that changes the glyph placement) ordered after the mark lookups, Uniscribe will apply the mark first then move the base glyphs, reordering the lookups gives the expected output. HarfBuzz gives the same output regardless of the order of the lookups.

[behdad]

No sure if it is related, but I had noticed that if I have my kerning lookups (and probably anything that changes the glyph placement) ordered after the mark lookups, Uniscribe will apply the mark first then move the base glyphs, reordering the lookups gives the expected output. HarfBuzz gives the same output regardless of the order of the lookups.

Right, that's known. We might change that if we end up wanting to match Uniscribe for this bug.

[JelleBosmaMT]

For the record: the only requirement for the intended display is that the all the GPOS lookups are applied and applied in lookup order. Of course this the default assumption of how the GPOS is intended to function.

It may appear counterintuitive to use cursive attachment with anchor points on marks. But all that is done is to position the shape of a spacing glyph in a line of text in relation to shapes to the left of it, with the help of the coordinates of anchor points. It is the value of the coordinate that matters, and it matters not if the value is stored as an anchor of a base glyph or as an anchor of a mark glyph positioned relatively to a base glyph.

I am also tempted to make the comment: Although the GPOS has lookup types that have "attachment" and "connection" in the name, nothing gets attached or connected by these lookups. It is just positioning with the help of coordinates. They may be used for features that intend to "attach" or "connect" glyphs. But even so, there is always the need to correct general attachment or connection rules for exceptional cases with additional context rules.

[behdad]

No sure if it is related, but I had noticed that if I have my kerning lookups (and probably anything that changes the glyph placement) ordered after the mark lookups, Uniscribe will apply the mark first then move the base glyphs, reordering the lookups gives the expected output. HarfBuzz gives the same output regardless of the order of the lookups.

So, I'm going to change HarfBuzz to be more like Uniscribe here. I know it's inferior behavior, but is the simplest way to make cursive attachment to marks work reasonably.

[behdad]

For the record: the only requirement for the intended display is that the all the GPOS lookups are applied and applied in lookup order. Of course this the default assumption of how the GPOS is intended to function.

All of this only works in Indic shaper because that's the only shaper that does NOT zero mark advances... In all other shapers, using cursive to attach marks will probably behave the same as using mark and mkmk features.

[JelleBosmaMT]

On 12-feb.-16 07:18, "Behdad Esfahbod" notifications@github.com wrote:

All of this only works in Indic shaper because that's the only shaper
that does NOT zero mark advances... In all other shapers, using cursive
to attach marks will probably behave the same as using mark and mkmk
features.

Cursive connection moves the advance of the first glyph, mark attachment
moves the outlines of the second. That is a fundamental difference. In the
other "shapers", the non-zero advance width of the second glyph is
modified, which is neither cursive connection, nor mark attachment. One
would expect even then that the advance of the first is changed by cursive
connection although with the advance of the second being changed, it has
gone wrong already ;-(

Best regards,
Jelle