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dchudz won #83

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jeffkaufman opened this Issue Jan 29, 2019 · 18 comments

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jeffkaufman commented Jan 29, 2019

We flipped a coin over who would give points to whom. He won, so I approved #82 which give him 100k points and took 200k points from me.

screen shot 2019-01-29 at 9 09 48 am

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jeffkaufman commented Jan 29, 2019

congratulations @dchudz !

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tnelling commented Jan 29, 2019

You're too honest for your own good, Jeff.

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tnelling commented Jan 29, 2019

If we want to prevent such self-sacrificing shenanigans in the future, we should floor transfer points at 0. Probably should have anyway.

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dchudz commented Jan 29, 2019

@tnelling FWIW, I'm not sure how crucial a role trust played in this. If we didn't trust each other, we could have set up a script to decide who wins and then make it happen, and walk away from the script together without knowing who's going to win.

Being together in person helps a lot with that, though. I'm not sure how feasible it would be remotely, but maybe there's something that works without trust.

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jeffkaufman commented Jan 29, 2019

bugs this shows:

  • no one should be allowed to go below 0 points
  • prs that add players shouldn't count as points transfer prs
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jeffkaufman commented Jan 29, 2019

after david and I had already agreed to do this we realized that someone could win on their own by using points transfer prs to add enough sock puppets to become a supermajority and then approve a PR that made them win explicitly

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tnelling commented Jan 29, 2019

I don't think disallowing going below 0 generally is necessary, but no transfer PRs should be allowed to go below 0, or remove points from a player with negative points.

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tnelling commented Jan 29, 2019

I didn't say Jeff (or you) was too trusting, I said he was too honest. Once the coin flip happened, there was no benefit to him in following through beyond reputation. I certainly agree the bug could have been exploited in other ways.

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dchudz commented Jan 29, 2019

Another way to win unilaterally would be by giving negative points to a sock puppet.

Once I realized that, I considered trying to win on my own, but wasn't sure what my agreement with Jeff was. After talking we decided to flip the coin like we planned originally.

Also I was a little confused about the process of winning unilaterally. In particular, I thought a non-player like me could do it, but that's not true b/c:

  • the person losing points needs to approve the PR
  • approvals are only queried for players

So once I was a player I could have added a socket puppet unilaterally (by transferring a point to them), and the sock puppet could have let me win. But I'd have needed to be a player first. I'm not sure when in the process of trying to win unilaterally I would have noticed these problems (before or after I tipped my hand? dunno).

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dchudz commented Jan 29, 2019

Once the coin flip happened, there was no benefit to him in following through beyond reputation.

Yeah. I agree it that for some purposes it'd be nice to make inter-game reputation not matter, but I don't know how to do that except complete anonymity. (Some people play diplomacy that way, right?) So I mostly treat it as part of the game.

I realize people have very different views/approaches on that.

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jeffkaufman commented Jan 29, 2019

Wrote a post summarizing the win: https://www.jefftk.com/p/nomic-report-iii-conclusion

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pavellishin commented Jan 29, 2019

it seemed too likely that people would realize the account didn't have a proper hsitory and reject the join PR.

I, for one, would almost certainly not have bothered checking :)

*Another question is how I should leave the repo when we are fully done, so other people can fork it and start playing? *

I would favor a slightly more maximal approach, at least encoding something like what you propose in #77 - otherwise the code gets messy and annoying and things like (e.g.) fixing whitespace issues become really annoying to carry out.

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pavellishin commented Jan 29, 2019

diplomacy

Or maybe we could pivot from nomic to this :)

(Although I loathe, fucking loathe the diplomacy map, which concentrates all of the interesting stuff in a very hard to read center section. Maybe that's part of the point, but for the most part it's just annoying and fiddly, and really turned me off the first and only time I played.)

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tnelling commented Jan 29, 2019

Your opinion on Diplomacy is unenlightened :P

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jeffkaufman commented Jan 29, 2019

I've been wanting to GM another game of https://www.jefftk.com/p/dip-space-nine for a while...

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pavellishin commented Jan 29, 2019

@tnelling I'm willing to listen to a sales pitch on why my opinion is dumb, it's the only way to get rid of dumb opinions

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dchudz commented Jan 29, 2019

I'd probably be interested in Diplomacy, especially the one @jeffkaufman wants to GM.

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pavellishin commented Jan 29, 2019

Thread created: #84

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