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Kelly 0:00
Welcome to the first ever Ladybug Podcast Book Club episode. This is a bonus episode which will occur at the end of each month. This month we're discussing Atomic Habits by James clear. We're super excited for this book club. And if you want to follow along, you can check out our Goodreads group, which we will have linked on our website at Next month, we'll be reading Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men by Caroline Criado Perez. Let's jump in.

Welcome to the Ladybug Podcast. I'm Kelly.

Ali 0:31 I'm Ali.

Emma 0:32 And I'm Emma. And we're debugging tech industry.

So I'm pretty sure that I have been talking nonstop about Atomic Habits since I was born. And if you follow me on the internet, you probably have seen me raving about it. So this was the second time I read this book, and I'm curious to know your thoughts. So what did you... What was your first reaction and what did you think of it?

Kelly 0:56 So I think it's also worth noting, Emma, you read a physical copy of the book. Did you, or did you read an e-book?

Emma 1:02 Well, the first time I listened to the audio book, the second time I read the physical book, and I will admit the physical book is much better because of all the graphs and everything. And I think - this is a small tangent - but Ali, you would mention, like he kept plugging his own website that's only on the audio book, because it's reading the footnotes for things. So it's definitely not as prominent in the physical book.

Kelly 1:22 That is a very good point. And I read the Kindle version.

Ali 1:27 Okay, I did the audio book, but I also have the physical copy now. I'm showing it. Which you cannot see because this is just audio. But I would definitely agree that the audio book has some weird quirks with it, where it's constantly talking about his website and like telling you to look at the graphics on there. And so I felt a little bit like, why am I reading a book if you're just telling me to go to your website all the time, but seeing the physical book, that's not the case anymore. So I definitely think that getting the physical book is the way to go.

Kelly 2:01
I also think it's worth noting on the Kindle version. I think it's like at 62% you actually finish the book. So that was super misleading.

Emma 2:08 I hate when they do that.

Kelly 2:10 Yeah, I thought I was like, I want to have to spend so much more time finishing this book. But no, I reached the end. I was like, oh, okay, cool.

Ali 2:17
Definitely. Have you all read The Power of Habit too?

Emma 2:19
I have read The Power of Habit and I really liked it. I believe I read it prior to reading Atomic Habits. So Atomic Habits and The Power of Habit are both about habits. I don't know if you could tell. I really liked The Power of Habit. That might be another one we can read as well. There are a lot of anecdotes in that one and I really like books that have like real life anecdotes. I think... Did you read it, Ali?

Ali 2:42
Yes. Yep. I have it right on that bookshelf right there.

Emma 2:45
Do they talk about toothpaste in that one?

Ali 2:47
Yep, yes. And how...

Emma 2:49 This was so cool.

Ali 2:50 Yeah, the foamingness or is it the minty taste? Something...

Emma 2:53
It was the minty taste.

Ali 2:54 Okay.

Emma 2:55
So like, I don't remember exactly, but I do think the premise was the creators of toothpaste were having a very hard time selling it because people had not ingrained the habit of brushing their teeth. It was not something that they did. And it wasn't until they added this minty fresh flavor and coined it as like, oh, you'll have great smelling breath that people... like it caught on. So it talked about how you can kind of market your products simply to change people's habits, which I thought was fascinating.

Ali 3:22
Yeah, they had that about Fabreze too. That they had to change the marketing for it. So many good stories in that book. But I think that Atomic Habits was way more actionable, which I really liked. And from an educational perspective, I really liked the diagrams and also the summaries at the end of every chapter. I think that that was really awesome about Atomic Habits. But if you're looking for something a little bit more novel-like, that has all these stories, then The Power of Habit is really great.

Kelly 3:49
That's really funny. I did not like the summaries at the end of each chapter. I'm like, Oh, look, some words I can skip. Because I just read the chapter. I know what it's about.

Emma 3:57
Yeah. I do find some books when I do some is at the end, they're basically just repetitive. But at the same time, it's a really good that... like at a glance, you know.

Kelly 4:06
That's true. Especially if you want to refer back to the book later.

Ali 4:08
Definitely, like if you wanted to go back through the book, you could just go to those summaries and not necessarily read the whole thing over again.

Emma 4:15
So I think we should just jump in and talk about some of our favorite parts. I'll kick it off, because I have a quote here, or an example, that's one of my favorite things in the whole book. And it's something that I remember... I have remembered since I read it.

So first of all, one of the things he says is the quality of our life depends on the quality of our habits. And he talks about this aggregation of marginal gains, which has a lot of syllables and a lot of big words, but essentially just means break everything down... Breaking down... Let me rephrase this, break down everything that goes into a task and improve it by 1%. It's a significant improvement when you put it all together. And he uses this example of an airline pilot who's flying out of LAX headed to New York City and if they adjust the the airplane heading 3.5 degrees to the south, you don't think that's a big difference. 3.5 degrees doesn't sound like a huge change. But actually you would land in Washington DC instead of New York City, which is a difference of 225 miles. So it... the whole premise is be more concerned with your trajectory than the current results that you're seeing.

Kelly 5:18
I think that's a really good thing to point out, especially because being so future-focused and being so focused on specifically what's going to happen at the end of this, or what your end goal is, we tend to lose sight of what we need to do to get there. Because we're so focused on the endgame.

Ali 5:35
Especially when we want to get there really fast, too. And you think it's going to be this linear trajectory, but there's really a kind of curve to it. And I talk about this all the time with learning too, is that there are ups and downs and it's more cyclical than it is just a linear trajectory. And when people are in the low points of learning, it makes it really really hard to keep learning because you think that you're in this like pit of despair and it's never going to get better, but you have to go through those lows to get to the highs. And I think the same thing is true for building habits is that it sucks sometimes. Like working out or whatever or eating healthy. It's not always fun. But you have to break through the hard parts in order to get the results that you want.

Emma 6:16
Absolutely. And I think one of the things that I found really interesting was this concept of systems as opposed to goals. So goals are the results that you want to actually achieve, such as I want to be, I don't know, 200 pounds, right. If I'm trying to lose weight, let's say I want to be 200 pounds. That's my goal. The systems are actually the processes that lead to those results. And so he suggest focusing on these systems.

So for example, if your goal is to win a soccer championship, but... Your system is going to be how you recruit and manage players or run your practices. So while goals are really good for setting a direction, systems are really really good for making progress. So change the systems that cause the results. And by default, obviously, your results will change.

I think we talked about this in our... I forget what episode it was where we talked about... Maybe it was social media? No. In season one, we had an episode we discussed the number of followers and how you can become obsessed with this number. So, you know, I would see random tweets of people being like I want to reach 1,000 followers, I want to reach 10,000 followers by the end of the year. And this is an example of focusing on the goal and not the system. Well, if instead you focus on producing quality content consistently, by nature, you're going to achieve your goal and you'll be much happier because you know, you're not focused on one specific number. So this is kind of one example that we see in the social media tech world. That kind of proves this case.

Kelly 7:38
For sure. And it also, you know, jumping off of that if you're always producing quality content, you tend to enjoy the process of actually producing that content as well because it, you know, leads to more interesting conversations and things like that. So it drives you to keep that in mind. While you might have like an end goal, your focus is still on the process.

Emma 8:01
Absolutely. So what about this concept of three layers of behavioral change? Who wants to take this?

Kelly 8:06
Ali, you take this.

Ali 8:07 Awesome. So one thing that he talked about was the layers of change. So the first one is identity and focusing on what you believe and identifying strongly with that. Like, I think the example that he gave was somebody identifying as a non-smoker, if they're trying to quit smoking. That was one of the examples given in there. Then there's the process of what you're trying... what you actually do in order to stick to that identity and then there's the outcome. So the outcome is finally what happens when you follow through on these habits.

Emma 8:46
I want to quickly talk about that smoker example because this also was kind of a mind shift to me. So he gives an example of two people who are offered a cigarette and they both typically or have smoked in the past and the first person says, "No thanks. I'm trying to quit". And the second person says, "No thanks, I'm not a smoker". And you can very clearly see in the second person that they've identified as a non-smoker. And as a result, their habits are much easier to change. I thought that was so like mind shifting to me.

Kelly 9:12
It is. Yeah, I mean, it's, I hate the phrase, like fake it till you make it. But even if you are a smoker, but you're trying to quit, if you identify as a non-smoker, you're much more likely to shift your own identity to follow, you know, follow suit with that. And I mean, that's the whole point that that Clear is making here is to focus more on the identity than the process or the outcome and your habits are much more likely to stick.

Emma 9:37
Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's gonna seem really difficult at first to try to change your habits and we'll talk about how habits form in just a second. But you know, habits reduce cognitive load. So these improvements are temporary until they become part of your unconscious, part of who you are. So speaking of all of this, Kelly doing a kind of like, tell us how we actually form habits.

Kelly 9:58
Yeah, yeah. So there are four stages essentially for how habits form. The first is going to be the cue, which is what triggers the brain to actually initiate the behavior. Next step will be the craving, which is the motivation behind the habit. The response is the habit itself and then the reward is the end goal for what you get for taking on that behavior. So, in order to create a good habits, Clear talks about what you can do for each of these steps, so, for cue you want to make it obvious, and I think... Do you remember the specific example that was given for for make it obvious?

Emma 10:38
I don't but I think like as an example, like if you are trying to drink more water, maybe fill up a ton of water bottles and leave them around the house where you can actually see them.

Kelly 10:48
That's right. Or like if you're trying to get to the gym more often, lay out your clothes.

Ali 10:52
Yeah, I think that was actually the example. Or maybe that was the example for make it easy. But...

Emma 10:57
Oh maybe.

Kelly 10:59 I guess it can apply for both. You're making it obvious because it is right in front of you. And then there's also make it attractive for craving. Again, I don't remember this one.

Emma 11:09
Maybe... So if we take the concept of working out, maybe it's like you go out and buy some really cute new workout clothes. So you're excited to go wear them.

Ali 11:15
Yeah, or you do workouts that you really enjoy. Like, right now I'm doing aerial yoga, which is so much fun. And you get to do all these like flips and stuff. And so it almost doesn't even feel like working out. But it is a good workout. I'm sore the next day. But it's so much fun that it almost doesn't feel like it and same is true with like rock climbing or whatever, where you're really enjoying the activity.

Emma 11:37
Did they make you sign like a waiver saying you're not gonna sue them if you break your neck?

Ali 11:40
I think so. Yeah. But it is so much fun.

Emma 11:43 I would definitely do that.

Ali 11:44 Oh my goodness it's so cool. And I really want to take like Instagram pictures one time I go because I feel like it's really pretty.

Kelly 11:52
I'm pretty sure people do that all the time.

Emma 11:54 I think you should.

Kelly 11:55 So you'd be in good company. So for the response, which again is the actual habit itself, you want to make it easy. So get rid of any kind of barriers that you're kind of putting in your way to, you know, actually initiate the habit. Maybe it's cooking at home. Make sure you have the ingredients at home. I guess that's an example of that. And then the reward for actually initiating the habit, make it satisfying. I'm still stuck on food because... I just ate lunch so I shouldn't be hungry. But, you know, make it satisfying the food itself if I want to eat healthy let me make a really delicious healthy meal.

Emma 12:27
I'm like, if I go to the gym, I can eat a doughnut. That's my...

Kelly 12:31 Oh, I do that all the time. Like I...

Emma 12:33
Oh, I'm kidding. I don't go to the gym.

Kelly 12:36
Oh, I go to... I do a specific workout that people think I'm crazy. It's called hot works. So they have things like yoga and pilates and like core workouts, they're like 30 to 45 minutes total. But the kicker is that you're in a sauna. So the entire thing is like 30 to 45 minutes in a sauna. So it's between like 120 and 125 degrees and you sweat so much. And each workout I burn anywhere between like 500 and 600 calories and it's a short amount of time. I love it though. I hated it at first and my body had to adjust to being in a sauna for that long and also working out at the same time. But I get to enjoy, you know, the aftermath of it and seeing my... how many more calories I can consume.

Emma 13:25 And your abs.

Kelly 13:26 There are no abs there.

Emma 13:28
Sounds like when I used to walk to my car after work in Texas. I was sweaty and tired by the end of it. But...

Kelly 13:35
Yeah, that sounds about right.

Emma 13:36
So all this sounds really great, Kelly, but I mean, to be honest, I've got a lot of bad habits. So can you tell me maybe like how to actually break them?

Kelly 13:43
Yeah, so for creating a good habit, you're just going to take the opposite of everything for breaking a bad habit. So for the cue, if you want to make it obvious, make it invisible instead. In this case, I have a tendency to pick up my phone in the morning as soon as I wake up. So a good example of this would be to put my phone away so I don't see it and be more likely to grab it. For craving, where you are making it attractive, make it unattractive instead. Do you have an example of a habit that you're trying to break?

Emma 14:18
I mean, I'm trying not to drink as much alcohol. I'm trying to think of a way to make that unattractive. Maybe I just have to drink so much that I just don't want to drink any more.

Kelly 14:27
That sounds not great.

Emma 14:28 Yeah, imagine that was what he suggests in his book.

Kelly 14:31 Maybe you only buy crappy alcohol or something? I don't know.

Emma 14:36
Yeah, that's true. It's just like...

Kelly 14:38
Like the tacos of the world. Like the super... Like the bottles that come in... like it's like a plastic bottle of vodka, or something like that.

Emma 14:45
Like I'm only allowed to buy Franzia and like Crystal Palace gin.

Kelly 14:46 Yeah, exactly.

Emma 14:51 I mean, to be honest, I have no hate against Franzia. Okay, so that's the concept of making it unattractive. What about making it difficult?

Kelly 14:58
Yeah. So instead of making the habit easy make it difficult instead. And this is for the response.

Emma 15:04
So put child locks on all of my bottles.

Kelly 15:06 There you go. Yeah. For reward, make it satisfying, instead make it unsatisfying. And maybe this is where you come in for the...

Emma 15:14
So this is where I could probably do like if I drink I have to do like a live stream, right? That sounds really horrible to me.

Kelly 15:18
Or you have a history of drinking and then doing an Ask Me Anything on Twitter.

Emma 15:22 I know I ended up muting it because I was so embarrassed. I woke up the next morning, like, what have I done, but I think I handled it well.

Kelly 15:29 You did handle it well. Another example of this, instead of embarrassing yourself in public is if I wanted to have an extra glass of wine at night, I also have to do 20 push ups. I hate push ups.

Emma 15:45
Oh, that's a good idea. So I'm over here like public humiliation. You're like just...

Kelly 15:52 Just working out.

Emma 15:52
That sounds that sounds like habit stacking, which is something he also talks about. I mean, you're speaking in the negative sense. So like if I do X then I have to do Y but you can also use this to your benefit to gain new habits. So when situation X arises I'm going to perform response Y. So already pick up a habit that you really enjoy. For me, I really enjoy drinking coffee in the morning and so I wanted to read more books so what I would do is I'd get up in the morning a little bit earlier and I'd drink coffee and I'd read my book and then I'd get ready for work. So by... I mean I also like to read so it wasn't like that hard for me to do. But by stacking, you know, a new habit with one you already have ingrained is definitely going to help you be more successful.

Ali 16:34
Well, I think adding something to your morning like get ready routine or whatever. Like you brush your teeth every morning. If you're trying to do skincare, then adding that right after you brush your teeth, as they're a pretty easy next step.

Kelly 16:46 That's a good one.

Emma 16:47
I have that problem with like taking my makeup off at night because like by the end of the day, I'm so tired and then I go to sleep with it all on and I wake up looking like a trash raccoon. So I need to find a way to have it stack something in there. I mean, I do brush my teeth every night so maybe I should just try it in there but I just I don't know. I don't know.

Kelly 17:01
Well we can also look at in terms of temptation bundling since you're more likely to find a behavior attractive if you get to do it with one of your favorite things. As you said, you want to read more so you read while you drink your coffee because you really enjoy drinking your coffee.

Emma 17:16
You know what I do like to do. And I... This did help me with working out because I hated cardio. I just got really bored. Is I would pre-download like YouTube videos or Netflix and watch like a 30 minute episode while I was on the fake Peloton or whatever.

Kelly 17:30 The fake Peloton.

Emma 17:31 So that's a good way to...

Kelly 17:33
That's actually something that I know some people do is that they'll download like a TV show that they really like. They only watch it while they're working out. So that's their reward.

Emma 17:40 Yeah, it's super useful.

Ali 17:43 I like that. I also like the idea of doing a reward system. Since I read this book, I've downloaded a habit tracker on my phone called Done. I've been trying to add new habits every week, like a group of them that all make sense together. That's been working really well because you get this kind of artificial reward for doing the habit of having it go up in count every time that you do it, and it turns a different color and all that. So I mean it's a false incentive, or kind of a fake one, but I really like it and so I lik the idea of the habit tracking.

Emma 18:17 I was looking for a habit tracker like online so I'm happy that you mentioned that. Because like one of my things is I try not to spend money because I'm on like a serious debt payoff journey at this moment. And so like any day I don't spend money is a like a good day. Like when I bring my lunch to work or you know, ride my bike as opposed to taking the tram. People like visual motivation. I mean, with any goal I don't know about when you were paying off your debt Kelly but one thing I want to do is actually visualize how much I pay off each month.

Kelly 18:42 Oh yeah.

Emma 18:43 So actually like coloring in like a square is like 1000 euro or something. It's like every thousand euro I color in a square. And you can visually see over time.

Kelly 18:51 I was obsessed with watching my net worth as well. Like every single payment I make, every single dollar I save, it adjusts my net worth to increase it. Or when I was paying off my student loans, for example, I was slowly getting out of the negative net worth level. So just you know, whatever... it's whatever works for you. And that visual component like using that Done app, for example. I mean, it kind of almost leads to like gamification, which has proven to be successful for businesses in general and it... That same behavior can definitely be applied to your personal life.

Emma 19:25 Well, speaking of habit tracking, some of the people in our Ladybug Goodreads group... Which if you are not a member of, you should definitely go check it out. We have it on our website. You can also find out what books we're reading and all of that on our website We've pulled some quotes from people in our Goodreads chat and, you know, in future episodes, we'd love to, you know, chat more with you. But in terms of habit tracking, we got some really good ones. So Gerard said, "I found a combination of 100 Days of Code and my GitHub streak to be a really motivating habit tracker. I really doubt I would have completed four rounds 100 Days of Code if I didn't have the satisfaction of seeing the GitHub heatmap turn green.

Ali 20:05 Oh, I love that.

Emma 20:06 I totally forgot like GitHub is a habit tracker.

Kelly 20:08 Absolutely.

Ali 20:09
I didn't even think of that. That is so cool. I really love that.

Kelly 20:12
Also, can we just talk about four rounds of 100 Days of Code?

Ali 20:16 That is so impressive.

Kelly 20:17 That's over a year.

Ali 20:19 Yeah, that's a long time.

Kelly 20:20 That's really impressive.

Ali 20:21 Wow. Now I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I want to do this. I... My GitHub graph is definitely not like that, especially since I work on GitHub enterprise, which is an internal version to GitHub. So my stuff doesn't get pushed to GitHub.

Kelly 20:34 Aww.

Emma 20:35
Yeah, I use Bitbucket. So...

Kelly 20:36
There was another quote as well, from the Goodreads group, from Julieta. She says, "I use habit trackers on my bullet journal. So I have small calendars where I mark with an x the days I have done my habit. I have to say that my German language habit tracker is currently empty, but my workout and watercolor painting ones are doing okay."

Emma 20:54 My German language habit tracker is also empty, Julieta.

Kelly 20:56 I was just going to ask.

Emma 20:57
So it's fine. It's been empty for a while...

Kelly 21:00
Although watercolor painting is pretty cool.

Ali 21:02 I tried to do bullet journaling. I feel like it's just so much work, but it's so impressive that she's really good at it. And I know people do like more minimalist ones too. And that's probably more achievable.

Emma 21:12
I've seen some beautiful ones.

Ali 21:13 Oh, so pretty.

Emma 21:14 I watch like YouTube tutorials on making bullet journals, but I am like artistically challenged, so I can't. I can't make it pretty.

Kelly 21:19
I'm also going to plug this journal that I bought. Since I don't do bullet journaling, because I think it's too much work. I bought this notebook. It's by BestSelf. And basically each... You fill out a page each day - And I am just now remembering that I didn't do today, so I'm going to do that as soon as we're done recording this episode - where you put in what are your three targets for the day? And what are you grateful for? What's your goal for the day, but each... like each day you're able to track where you're... like how you're progressing on hitting your goals each day of the week. It's really cool because I don't have to draw anything. I just have to write things.

Ali 21:58 Love that. There are so many out there like that.

Emma 22:00
So I want to quickly maybe shift a little bit and talk about what makes habits attractive. So one of the things he was saying was to have... My cat is in my audio box. I'm not going to cut this out because I think this is funny. My cat has just crawled inside of my cardboard box containing all of my audio equipment. So you know, they don't chew wires or anything. Does anyone else have pets that like totally interrupt at the wrong time? I do.

Kelly 22:26
No. But I do have a husband that does that.

Ali 22:29 Oh, my goodness. Blair. We had to push back recording because she was literally sick all night. I got like three hours of sleep.

Kelly 22:37
I feel like I just threw Daniel under the bus. I'm totally lying. I don't record episodes at home. So he's not actually here when I'm recording episodes.

Emma 22:45
Yeah, but it was a funny joke.

Kelly 22:46
I just want to make sure everybody knows that I do love my husband.

Emma 22:52
Uh huh. Anyway, back to habits. James Clear talks about how you can reframe habits to highlight their benefits. So one of these mindset shifts is the phrase "I get to" versus "I have to". So instead of like, I have to go to the gym. It's like no, I get to go to the gym. So that's really interesting. And he also talked about how habits are not formed based on time. Like we would think, oh, how long is it going to take me to form this habit? Is it going to take weeks? That's not necessarily what determines it. It's based on frequency. So you know, it's not necessarily... it might take person A three weeks to develop the habit of going to the gym every day. Or it might take person B I don't know half as long if they go twice a day. I don't know why you would go to the gym twice a day, some people do, I don't even go once a day.

Ali 23:34 I used to.

Emma 23:35

Ali 23:36
Yeah, I used to be like absurdly in shape. I was training for a marathon and then weightlifting at the same time so I would work out like multiple hours a day. It was absurd. But not anymore.

Kelly 23:50
Different focus now that's totally fine.

Ali 23:53 Different focus.

Kelly 23:54 I think another really good one for making things attractive or just kind of pushing yourself to, you know, actually start making this habit, was the two minute rule. Basically just do anything for two minutes. And that's... If you do that you've shown up, you've made the effort. And, you know, the more you do it, you're going to start doing it for longer than two minutes and things like that. But it's an easier bar to hit than being like, I need to go to the gym for an hour and a half and I don't know, whatever it might be.

So some people from our Goodreads group also talked about the two minute rule. Actually it was a pretty popular topic. So Jacob, for example, he said, "I struggle with moderation, I tend to jump into anything new headfirst. For example, if I decided to pick up a hobby, it's normal for me to spend hours on it daily for weeks or months. Occasionally, those things do turn into long term passions, but usually I burn out. By enforcing some level of moderation on myself, I am more likely to stick with habits that exhibit exponential returns over time." I completely agree. Like I get super into an idea and then I just like go totally head first, 0 to 100, let me just really, really drive this thing home. And then I get tired of it real fast so it never actually becomes a habit.

Ali 25:04
So relate to that. When I started blogging, I think I've said this before on the podcast, but my whole theme to it was that I wrote a blog post every week on a new technology I was learning that I built an app with. And so it was like hours and hours and hours and hours.

Kelly 25:20 That's so much work.

Ali 25:21 That's how I started blogging. It was like 40 hours a week to write a blog post, and totally burnt out of that really fast, especially because people were asking me to speak about it and stuff, too. So... So relate to that idea of burning out on new things. And trying to scale back.

Emma 25:37
Yeah. And also, we know, we had another comment from Sophie. She said, "I've been trying the two minute rule by putting on my workout clothes and running in place for two minutes. So once that habit's established, I'll start slowly building up." And yeah, it definitely starts with those little atomic habits. And she talked about this idea of a commitment device, which I really, really liked. And this was one other thing that stuck with me, which is, a choice that you make in the present that controls your actions in the future. So you're making decisions about your future self in the present. And I do this with my current debt payment plan, where like, as soon as I get paid, I make a budget and I immediately like pay off my debt, I pay myself first and then there's other room for having fun, right? But like, if I just left that money in there to the end of the month, like, Oh, I'll pay my, you know, my debt at the end of the month, you're not gonna... you're not going to do it as intensely. And so I'm definitely controlling my future actions, my future spending by making those choices now.

Kelly 26:34
That's so... That's totally true. And also on the business side on the same topic. A book I recommend to a lot of businesses is called Profit First, and I know I've talked about it in other podcasts. And it's still the same kind of idea of, you know, taking your profit first - surprise! - just making sure your business is always profitable because you're always setting that money aside into another account. That's out of sight. out of mind, you don't have any kind of... You don't like see it and you're like, Well, you know, I could just pull out of the profit account and buy a new MacBook or, you know, whatever it might be. It just... It helps you kind of create that more responsible habit of putting money aside and saving it. So that's definitely on the business side, same kind of concept.

Emma 27:20 Absolutely. So you know, what's immediately rewarded is repeated and what is immediately punished is avoided. So, find a way to reward yourself in the present day. Give yourself incentive to start a habit, and then change your identity to actually sustain it.

So, you know, this was my second time reading this book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I definitely enjoyed it more reading the physical copy. Stefano... I'm not really sure how to say it. My German pronunciations are coming into play here. You know, you said, "I think I have to read the book a second time before starting to implement something more." This is definitely a very actionable and dense book and it's something I personally will probably read once a year just to keep my motivation going but if it was just a lot for you, I would definitely recommend, you know, let it digest and then maybe pick it up again another year and see what you think then.

Kelly 28:08
I agree. I think there's a lot of value in revisiting this book frequently, even if you're already, you know, establishing some of your habits. It's just a good reminder in general.

Ali 28:18
Yeah, I almost felt like I was reading it a second time, even though it was the first time because The Power of Habit is super similar to this book. So I almost feel like reading them in tandem could be a really good motivator. And then Atomic Habits is a little bit more actionable. So I think that that was a good sequence there. But I totally agree that I will be integrating this into my routine and rereading it periodically. Especially the physical copy now that I have that. I didn't love the audio book, just some weird tendencies, but I really like the paper copy, so highly recommend that.

Emma 28:49

Kelly 28:50 So let's finish this up by each rating the book, because it's a book club. I feel like we should probably rate the book. So on... let's go scale from one to five, five being the best, one being this is a terrible book and should never have been written. Emma?

Emma 29:09
Fünf Sterne. I give this five stars. I still... I'm going to continue to preach about this. Like it wasn't a perfect book, but I will say this is one of the most memorable for me. I read a lot of books, I read a lot of nonfiction and this is definitely one, along with The Power of Habit that has stuck with me. So I'll give it five.

Kelly 29:28 Ali, what about you?

Ali 29:29
I would also give it a five. The paper copy, I would give a five. Probably give a four to the audio book. But again, I think it's really actionable. I like how it has summaries. I like how it has pictures. So it's integrating multiple learning styles. And I think everything in it is really actionable. So great book.

Kelly 29:45
Awesome. And I would also give it five stars. I think that these kind of self-help, self-improvement books tend to get a bad rap. But this book in particular was a very easy read. It did not feel like it was overwhelming and I feel like it can be applied to so many different areas of your life, whether personal or professional, that it just... it makes it a very approachable book. Especially if you're not really into the the self-help kind of books in general.

Ali 30:13

Emma 30:14 I think we need to rate these in ladybugs instead of stars. So we all gave it five ladybugs.

Kelly 30:18 Oh, you're right.

Ali 30:19
Oh that's so cute. I love it.

Kelly 30:21 Five little ladybugs.

Ali 30:22 I think it's worth saying that we are also pretty critical of self-help books in general. Like you can go through our Goodreads because we're we all are pretty active on there. Be our friend, please. Looking for friends on Goodreads. But you can read our reviews on there. And overall, I think we're all pretty critical of them. So...

Emma 30:44
Yeah, I can tell you a few that I... Just set this in perspective. We had conversations about... I did not like the Girl Wash Your Face book. I thought that was not great. I'm gonna leave it at that. I didn't think it was great, for many reasons. And another one that's really popular was...

Kelly 31:04 Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck.

Emma 31:06 Subtle Art of...

Ali 31:07 Of Bleep...

Emma 31:08 Yeah, exactly.

Ali 31:09 ... you mean. Just kidding.

Kelly 31:10 It's the actual title.

Emma 31:11 I thought it was a little over-rated.

Ali 31:12 Oh, I hated that book.

Emma 31:13 Yeah. I just think it was a little overrated. It just felt like they wanted to drop f bombs all over the place, just you know, to be relevant, or...

Kelly 31:21
I think so. Yeah. The most hilarious part of that book for me is... I read the book twice, because I didn't remember reading it the first time. That's how much it did not stick with me.

Emma 31:30
If you don't remember a nonfiction book than it... Like in terms of like self-help, quote, unquote. It really didn't do its job. So yeah, to Ali's point. We're quite critical of the things that we read and the fact that we all give this five stars kind of speaks volumes to that.

But if you enjoyed our first ever Book Club episode, please go check out our Goodreads. Join our Goodreads, get involved in the chat. You can again go find that at, and again in February we're going to be reading Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men and I already started it because it was a gift. A lovely gift. And it... I'm like, enthralled by it. Just the things in the world that we take for granted. Or we could think, Oh my gosh, this could never be sexist in any way. Well, actually, if you look at the data - "Well actually" - You know, just unbelievable things. So, you know, tune in in February the end of February, to hear more about that.

Ali 32:28
So excited that we're doing this, and excited to talk more books.

Kelly 32:33
Until next month.

Emma 32:34 See y'all Monday.

Ali 32:36 Bye.

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