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Remove minimal_game from release builds #4006

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MoNTE48 opened this issue Apr 18, 2016 · 37 comments

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@MoNTE48
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commented Apr 18, 2016

minimal_game it just kind of garbage to end player. It is necessary (probably) as the teaching aid or to debug build, but it should not be present in the release build.

@rubenwardy

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commented Apr 18, 2016

Relevant: #1740

@MoNTE48

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commented Apr 18, 2016

@rubenwardy, after 1.5 years of lazy developers may evolve or become extinct? ))

@est31

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commented Apr 18, 2016

I am with @kahrl on the issue of 1740, but about not packaging minimal_game for android release builds is a good idea.

Minimal is very useful, I use it often during development.

@MoNTE48

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commented Apr 18, 2016

@est31, But this increases the size of the repo and simply do not need to release. It may be worth adding to the release build ONLY minetest_game? This will reduce the size and removes the confusion.

@est31

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commented Apr 18, 2016

As I said, packaging is a different matter than keeping it in the repo. Removing minimal_game from android packages or other packages in release mode is okay.

Also, the repo size doesn't decrease only because we remove sth: git stores all history.

@DonBatman

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commented Apr 18, 2016

I agree with @rubenwardy and @MoNTE48. Minetest is made for the end user. Minimal is for developers, not the end user. When someone downloads from minetest.net they should be getting a polished game and not one that is for developers.

@rubenwardy

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commented Apr 18, 2016

My opinion has changed since then: minimal should stay in the dev repo, but should be removed in release builds.

@C1ffisme

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commented Apr 18, 2016

I agree with @MoNTE48 and the others. It adds confusion when someone has downloaded Minetest for the first time, and they don't put Minetest Game in their build. Some thoughts might go through their heads once they start up minimal:

  • Did I install a corrupted version? (Yes, some will think this because they don't know what corruption is.)
  • Is this a fork/fake?
  • Do I need a texture pack or mod?

If no games are installed in Minetest, it should link you to Minetest Game.

@rubenwardy

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commented Apr 18, 2016

If you only have minimal installed, the following message is shown when creating a world:

Warning: The minimal development test is meant for developers.
Download a subgame, such as minetest_game, from minetest.net

Since #1743

@DonBatman

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commented Apr 18, 2016

My opinion is that, like rubenwardy said, minimal should be removed from releases. What happens in dev versions is another story. When people download from minetest.net or google play store they should not get development stuff. Anyone downloading from github should know enough about minetest to know what it is or know enough to google it or ask on the forums.

@tobyplowy

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commented Apr 19, 2016

@DonBatman I totally agree minimal development build should not be in the full release.
(The First Time I Started Minetest i was on minimal development and i was really confused I thought that was the full game) I Rather play Minetest_game Not minimal development ;)

@paramat

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commented Apr 20, 2016

I agree, where this can be done, but for players compiling from source code minimal will be present in the repo at the 'stable release' commit.
I wonder if we need minimal at all.
It must make a bad impression if a newbie uses it, or, it looks sloppy for a dev tool to be left in a release. Perhaps it could be in a seperate repo.

@DonBatman

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commented Apr 20, 2016

@paramat There are devs who use minimal. There might be resistance to getting rid of it. As I have already said I see no reason for it being removed from github since anyone compiling will likely have the knowledge to either know the different or can figure it out.

@est31

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commented Apr 20, 2016

I wonder if we need minimal at all.

I use minimal as my main subgame for development.

Sometimes I enable debug features (printf etc) or something, and a fatter game like minetest_game will just make my console buffer freak out.

Similar for when I test a new feature, I don't want to spend tens of seconds to load media and other stuff when I will close the game in three seconds again because I have tested it (or got the debug printf I needed, etc).

It may make a bad impression on new users, but if they install minetest from git then they should expect a development version.

Less experienced users are encouraged to use the ppa or windows downloads. Let's remove it from there, I completely agree with that, I do not agree with it being removed completely from the codebase.

@Zeno-

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commented Apr 20, 2016

I use minimal also: for debugging, profiling and all sorts of things. I also use minetest_game

Summary
I don't think minimal should just be removed from the repo
I agree that it's not necessary in end-user pre-built downloads (PPAs, Windows downloads, APK etc)

@paramat

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commented Apr 20, 2016

est31 Zeno-, i agree.

In fact i'm not even keen on 'hiding' it as this would make it harder for devs to access.

@0-afflatus

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commented Apr 20, 2016

As a sub-game developer I agree with est31 and Zeno here.
I don't have any opinion on android or Windows builds.

@Dragonop

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commented Apr 21, 2016

I use minimal dev test to test my mods, mainly because I'm too lazy to download anything else, and you want to take it away? Lolwut, no thanks. 👎

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commented Apr 21, 2016

@Dragonop It Could Be a hidden feature so you can enable it in the Advanced options?

@C1ffisme

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commented Apr 21, 2016

@Dragonop That doesn't make a lot of sense, because most mods require content from Minetest Game. (Such as mese crystals, diamonds, or different types of wood.)

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commented Apr 22, 2016

most mods require content from Minetest Game

That's an interesting comment. I don't know whether that is true or not, but it seems to be an argument for keeping minimal as easy way to test for MTG dependencies. Naturally I have a vested interest in more mods not depending on MTG's default mod as it makes it much more complicated to integrate them into other games. Of course there are many cases where that cannot and maybe should not be avoided, but having minimal available as a 'control' seems like a Good Thing from where I'm standing.

@C1ffisme

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commented Apr 22, 2016

Naturally I have a vested interest in more mods not depending on MTG's default mod

Well, mods, but yeah.

Most of the ideas I'm thinking of are just crafting recipes. Of course, certain mods might require river water for a water wheel, or some kind of fuel. (Using diamonds as power crystals maybe?)

I'm not sure why MTG would be laggier than minimal, since the only real difference is that there are more blocks and items. Even TNT, about the laggiest thing in Minetest Game has to be placed by a player, and I don't know a lot of people who want to test mods and blow up TNT at the same time. (Even then, TNT uses voxelmanip now.)

@rubenwardy

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commented Apr 22, 2016

I'm not sure why MTG would be laggier than minimal

It isn't laggier, is just takes longer to load.

@C1ffisme

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commented Apr 22, 2016

@rubenwardy Not all that much, though. (At least, on my computer.) Maybe we should time both?

@cheapie

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commented Apr 23, 2016

I like the idea of having it in the repo (for those of us that, say, want to test something), but I do agree that it doesn't make sense in a release package.

(basically, exactly what DonBatman said up there ^^^ somewhere)

@Dragonop

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commented Apr 25, 2016

@C1ffisme MT-game took 2 minutes to load for me, last time I made a mod, of course.

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commented Apr 25, 2016

@Dragonop Do you have the loading time for minimal for a comparison?

(It also might help to know any other mods you are using with your tested mod.)

@Dragonop

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commented Apr 26, 2016

@C1ffisme 15-25 seconds, depends on the mod. No mods, as I was testing my own.

@red-001

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commented Feb 18, 2017

Yeah minimal shouldn't ever be included in release builds. After all it's just a dev tool and not a very good one at that (see #5265). If people need it they can use latest git or download it themselves.

@C1ffisme

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commented Feb 18, 2017

Question, if we remove minimal from builds and software store downloads, are we going to delete it from the player's system in the next version, or only remove it from builds and keep minimal if it's already installed on their system?

Also, as a compromise, we could add an option to hide minimal from view unless you turn on a setting. That would hide it from normal users, while giving modders the ability to use minimal. (The ability to hide subgames except in debug mode might also come in handy if one wants to make a 'testing ground' or 'minimal' subgame to go along with their default one.)

@C1ffisme

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commented Sep 15, 2017

While people have complained about Minetest Game having longer loading time, I feel like the answer to that is simple: Just download minimal from github if needed. Someone on the Minetest Forums can create a pinned post in Subgames or Mods that gives instructions to download minimal for people interested in speedy load times and helpful debug tools.

@paramat

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commented May 16, 2018

Once/if minimal is updated to become a useful testing game i think it will be useful to players, so my opinion of this depends on development of minimal.

@paramat paramat changed the title removal minimal_game of the release build Remove minimal_game from release builds May 16, 2018

@rubenwardy

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commented May 16, 2018

Minimal contains integration tests. I think it should only be useful for engine dev

@TMcSquared

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commented May 16, 2018

I agree with some of the people who've spoken above, mimimal looks very sloppy to an outsider and might turn them away just because of the terrible textures(no offense to whoever did them). I mean, the first time I booted up Minetest, I accidentally did minimal because I thought it wouldn't lag my comp as much as the full-on game...lo and behold I saw basically a bunch of bad textures and nearly 0 game-play aspects. I didn't open MT for another 3-4 months after that xD

@paramat

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commented May 16, 2018

Yes as it is currently i feel it shouldn't be in release builds.

@TMcSquared

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commented May 17, 2018

Even if it was improved, it is still a developer testing tool, and not something that is meant for users to play on a regular basis.

@SmallJoker

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commented Jun 11, 2018

Closing in favour of #6987. This issue is older but the other has more activity and more comments.

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