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add_new_tnt_sounds #2449

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merged 13 commits into from Aug 28, 2019

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@TumeniNodes
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commented Aug 20, 2019

Sounds edited for tnt mod.
I have to dig to find out the license for tnt_gunpowder_burning.ogg though
it was not removed with the other two.
Do we know where that file is from? Or does it need to be replaced as well, because I have a file all set if it does.

tweaks avail upon request, but these are better than the current temps.

HybridDog edited the tnt_explode file, I just cut it down a bit more
I cut the tnt_ignite sample down to play just until the exact moment tnt_explode kicks in
I also used ffmpeg to reduce the file sizes

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commented Aug 20, 2019

I also used ffmpeg to reduce the file sizes

Which command line did you use?

@sfan5 sfan5 added the Sounds label Aug 20, 2019
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commented Aug 20, 2019

-c:a libvorbis -q:a 1 -ar 44100 output.ogg (is this the wrong method? it was all I could find looking to reduce the filesize) I am no sound engineer, that's for sure, nor an ffmpeg expert
But these sound good ingame
I'm thinking maybe they could be a bit louder?

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commented Aug 20, 2019

Hold on.. I've looked at the commands a bit more
I think I found some misinformation before. I'm going to try something else

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commented Aug 20, 2019

You can use the oggenc command instead of ffmpeg. I'm not sure if it offers more config options.

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commented Aug 20, 2019

the actual cl I needed was
ffmpeg -i 'file' -c:a libvorbis -q:a 0 -ab 112 output.ogg

You can use the oggenc command instead of ffmpeg.

I've never used it before

I also added a bit of a fadeout at the end using audacity but, can't seem to get rid of that abrupt cutoff at the very end of the file (which is rather annoying)

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commented Aug 20, 2019

ignite: too quiet/muffled, too long, can't clearly hear it igniting unlike the previous sound
explode: too loud, there seems to be some clipping

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commented Aug 20, 2019

ignite: too quiet/muffled, too long, can't clearly hear it igniting unlike the previous sound
explode: too loud, there seems to be some clipping

I'll work on these.
explode I just increased the sound to the same level as the original because it was too quiet. The clipping at the end is far less noticeable than the original, I'm trying to figure out how to use a fadeout with it (it's not easy)

I just replaced gunpowder burning as well after a brief conv with sofar, it still needs to be edited/cut down

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commented Aug 20, 2019

Maybe @SparkizX can help with the sounds.

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commented Aug 20, 2019

The license text should have lines wrapped at 80-90 columns.
Easiest way is to copy-paste the formatted CC0 text from another mod

CC0 1.0 Universal (CC0 1.0) Public Domain Dedication

mods/tnt/license.txt Outdated Show resolved Hide resolved
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commented Aug 20, 2019

The explode sound does sound 'clipped', as in waveform clipping from excessive amplitude. HybridDog's version didn't sound clipped.
The thing to do is use 'normalise' under effects in Audacity, normalise to 0dB. This will maximise the volume without clipping.

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commented Aug 20, 2019

The best way to fade out is use a long fadeout that starts soon after the initial explosion, this will be less noticeable than a short fadeout right at the end.
HybridDog's version does need shortening certainly.
Once edited well i support using this explode sound.

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commented Aug 20, 2019

Looking at HybridDog's version in Audacity, the waveform is already maximised in amplitude (normalised) so it can't be made louder, this is why it is 'clipped' in your version.
I would start the fadeout at around 0.5s-0.75s.

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commented Aug 20, 2019

I agree the ignite sound is far too muffled.

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commented Aug 20, 2019

I added an ignite sound to the start of tnt_iginte but I cut the file a tad too short, will redo when I am back at my pc. I have not added it in yet

These will all take a day or so to get just right, but theyll get there

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commented Aug 21, 2019

If you can all test out the new ignite and explode sounds please.
I have heavily edited both.
The ignite is an entirely new CC0 file which I have edited a lot and will add the license info for once complete

explode still needs db increase. Audacity does not allow it without using clipping (any suggestions?)
It is the same file originally edited by HybridDog but I started fresh with the original from freesound and did a lot of editing to that as well.

I'm actually rather happy of these so far. gunpowder has not been edited yet

Pay no attention to the extra files, they will be deleted once this PR is finished. It is all still very WIP

@TumeniNodes TumeniNodes changed the title add_new_tnt_sounds add_new_tnt_sounds [WIP] Aug 21, 2019
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commented Aug 22, 2019

I think the new sound seems quieter because it has much more dynamic range than the old sound. If Audacity has a 'compressor' effect that might help.

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commented Aug 22, 2019

At least it's much cleaner now.

The edit that was originally done had clipping at the very beginning.
I managed to get rid of it all.
When working with the some sound files you have to alternate between a couple different effects, and continuously tweaking the settings.
I have already applied compression, clipfix, and amplify as well as stretching the waves out at the end of ignite and then setting fadeout, to get it to where it currently is... each a few times and making adjustments each time.
I'll get it there... eventually.

I'm interested in what people think of the sounds themselves so far.
I think the new ignite is much better. And I like the way it fizzles right before explode kicks in... it kind of builds up a tension, like in a thriller where the music stops one or two seconds before a sudden/violent event. So I feel it works perfect.

That is what I'm trying to do first... is to just get the right sounds, and then all the decibels can be adjusted (I hope)
Audio files are definitely more involved labor wise, which is why I'm just focusing on having the right ones to work with first, and why as much input from people as possible is needed along the way.

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commented Aug 22, 2019

Everything cleaned up, edited, etc..
Hopefully all is good now
I think they all sound much better than the originals (but of course I'm bias)

Ima go get a job with Mojang now :D

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commented Aug 22, 2019

The debris particles are still there, and they sound a little weird when listening to the sound...

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commented Aug 22, 2019

The debris particles are still there, and they sound a little weird when listening to the sound...

What are you talking about? All of the trailing debris falling in the sound was removed.
There is one fraction of a second of it within the explosion sound itself, which is hardly noticeable and exists in real explosions anyway

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commented Aug 22, 2019

I'm playing the sound on a loop, so it's noticeable pretty fast. But if you aren't able to remove it then I guess it'll do
Hmmmm, when the sound is at a lower volume I don't hear it anymore. But the explosion sounds fine. So this might work :shrug:

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commented Aug 22, 2019

I'd suggest and even recommend listening/testing it in-game

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commented Aug 22, 2019

A few subtle debris sounds are ok.

@paramat paramat changed the title add_new_tnt_sounds [WIP] add_new_tnt_sounds Aug 22, 2019
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commented Aug 22, 2019

Explode and ignite sound fine to me, more than good enough to merge, will check gain levels in-game.

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commented Aug 23, 2019

I'll inform people in a forum news thread, but won't mention the source of the sounds.

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commented Aug 23, 2019

I realize people are quite busy with engine work but this could use some reviews, and hopefully get this wee issue out of the way

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commented Aug 24, 2019

Tested in game, all sound levels are good. Sounds are good, much better than before. Code is fine.
👍

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commented Aug 24, 2019

Tested in game, all sound levels are good. Sounds are good, much better than before. Code is fine.
+1

Thank you

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commented Aug 25, 2019

I know you've all been busy, but if you could have another look over this please?
@sfan5
@SmallJoker
@rubenwardy
@Ezhh
@sofar

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commented Aug 27, 2019

takes literally 5 minutes to test.
Ill close in a day or so as it seems to be garnering no interest
(yep, Im being a bitch)

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commented Aug 27, 2019

LOL.
Don't you dare delete the PR, it's good work =) I'll merge it within 24hrs, 2 approvals or not, it's obviously fine so i'll take the initiative.

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commented Aug 27, 2019

I don't know if you're joking or not

I'll merge it within 24hrs, 2 approvals or not, it's obviously fine so i'll take the initiative

No it does absolutely not work like this.
MTG is not your pet project (even though you act like it) and it is not okay to break the rules as you consider it useful (even though you did it before).

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commented Aug 27, 2019

Feedback on the sounds:

ignite: not a fan of how long it is but that's a matter of taste, it's fine 👍
explode: the clipping is still there
I wouldn't say its bad enough that it needs to be fixed, but I certainly notice it every time the sound plays
audacity

Overall I don't disapprove these new sounds.

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commented Aug 27, 2019

@sfan5
Thanks for having a look again.
For an explosion, there will always be clipping.
As I have stated before. This is an abrupt and violent sound effect
Even if a file shows no clipping, in order to make it loud enough, we can increase the gain in the code, and it will still produce clipping (you just won't see it in the wave view)

It is definitely more noticeable when played direct via sound editing software or even in raw format over the web.
In-game though, it is not as noticeable (at least I do not really notice it, even when setting off
numerous tnt nodes)

with ignite I reduced the length to fade just prior to the explosion... which adds a bit of suspense, which to me adds a decent effect.
Originally, I had it set to play right up to the explosion (which is realistic) but reduced it as it was said to be too long then as well.
The old sound would fade far too soon, as if the fuse went out.

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commented Aug 27, 2019

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commented Aug 28, 2019

SmallJoker indicates support for a merge http://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2019-08-27#i_5583353 so i will merge it as sfan5 doesn't disapprove.

The clipping isn't actually noticeable to me when listening, as in, creating unpleasant artifacts, even though visually the waveform is clipped, this surprised me.
The waveform does need to be compressed or clipped like this, to obtain the required apparent volume. Without clipping the dynamic range is huge which makes the sound unusable.
The previous sound was heavily compressed too.

sfan5 i'm not joking.
In this situation of having no TNT sounds, even if there is some sort of problem with this PR it could be considered temporary or 'to be improved in a follow up PR'. Merging it causes absolutely no harm to anyone or the project, and it's better than the author rage-quitting and we lose all this good work.

This is why, in this particular situation, i judged it ok to merge. I will not do this for all PRs obviously.
Please realise how this is reasonable. If it seems reasonable, you don't need to be rigidly strict with the rules in this situation.
Thanks for reviewing again i appreciate it.

@paramat paramat merged commit 553b0f9 into minetest:master Aug 28, 2019
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commented Aug 28, 2019

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commented Aug 28, 2019

@paramat @sfan5 i only count one approval.

adding a sound with a multitude of clipped samples is ... not alright. justifying clipping because your sound is an explosion? yeah, no, doesn't work like

just my two cents

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commented Aug 28, 2019

Audacity supports Soft Clipping (Effect->Distortion...) and other effects which make the sound louder without hard clipping.

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commented Aug 28, 2019

Paramat + @SmallJoker - sfan5 = 1

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commented Aug 28, 2019

file size of original is 12.8k, bitrate 122k, new one is size 117k, bitrate 706k.

i like the new sound, but it's too loud. it has a lot more high end energy than the original. it's also going to hurt people's ears!

if you take a horribly clipped sound and normalize it to 0.999969 instead of 1, that doesn't magically fix the distortion.

original

Samples read:             37056
Length (seconds):      0.840272
Scaled by:         2147483647.0
Maximum amplitude:     0.999969
Minimum amplitude:    -1.000000
Midline amplitude:    -0.000015
Mean    norm:          0.237634
Mean    amplitude:    -0.021810
RMS     amplitude:     0.322110
Maximum delta:         0.918365
Minimum delta:         0.000000
Mean    delta:         0.026579
RMS     delta:         0.044808
Rough   frequency:          976
Volume adjustment:        1.000

new

Samples read:             58688
Length (seconds):      1.330794
Scaled by:         2147483647.0
Maximum amplitude:     0.999969
Minimum amplitude:    -1.000000
Midline amplitude:    -0.000015
Mean    norm:          0.313065
Mean    amplitude:     0.000154
RMS     amplitude:     0.475926
Maximum delta:         1.686188
Minimum delta:         0.000000
Mean    delta:         0.034910
RMS     delta:         0.096657
Rough   frequency:         1425
Volume adjustment:        1.000

Can't guess the type

that's sox tnt_explode.ogg -n stat for you

there's also sox tnt_explode.ogg -n stats not sure the difference, was a typo originally

original

DC offset  -0.021810
Min level  -1.000000
Max level   0.999969
Pk lev dB       0.00
RMS lev dB     -9.84
RMS Pk dB      -7.32
RMS Tr dB     -20.82
Crest factor    3.10
Flat factor    14.06
Pk count         137
Bit-depth      16/16
Num samples    37.1k
Length s       0.840
Scale max   1.000000
Window s       0.050

new

DC offset   0.000154
Min level  -1.000000
Max level   0.999969
Pk lev dB       0.00
RMS lev dB     -6.45
RMS Pk dB      -1.84
RMS Tr dB     -40.45
Crest factor    2.10
Flat factor    39.89
Pk count       8.16k
Bit-depth      16/16
Num samples    58.7k
Length s       1.331
Scale max   1.000000
Window s       0.050

personally, not sure it matters but, i like the new sound and am glad it's merged, because it's an improvement. i worry about the volume is all...

still, i support sfan5's concerns. thanks.

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commented Aug 28, 2019

justifying clipping because your sound is an explosion? yeah, no, doesn't work like

of course it does. Go ahead and d/l any explosion from any movie or other games, and import it into a sound editor... you're going to see clipping, if the sound is being used to create an impacting effect. I'm not talking about those sub-atomic, deep toned, sonic boom sounds.

As I said, even if there were no clipping, the gain in code would need to be ramped up to put the decibels where they need to be... which would cause the same exact "ripped speaker", distortion sound... you would just not see the clipping in wave view in editing software.

For Christ's sake people.... it's a freakin' explosion. :D I find all the controversy over "clipping" related to this sound effect a bit silly tbh.
Have you ever actually witnessed the impact of the sound of an explosion? IRL? Did you complain that it sounded "clipped" ? 0_o
The effect of the sound barrier being broken... throws a lot of distortion.

i worry about the volume is all

I had reset the gain in the code to 2.5. Perhaps reducing it a bit would address that concern.

Audacity supports Soft Clipping (Effect->Distortion...) and other effects which make the sound louder without hard clipping

But distortion would add the same effect as having clipping present, so I'm not sure what the difference would be?
A sound designer/engineer would try to clean up clipping to remove the grainy distortion effect of an aged analog or poor recording.

All of that being said, I am not a professional sound designer/engineer, I did the best I could with these. Yes, I could fidgit with them more but tbh I've no interest at this point.
Any one of you can play with them if you like with another PR, if you can make them better, that's awesome. : )
The sounds had to be removed for a legit reason, and we needed them replaced... that is what I did to the best of my ability in this area.
talking about how to fix a problem, does not fix the problem. giddyup.

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commented Aug 28, 2019

[…] I'm not sure what the difference would be?

I didn't link to an explanation before. It's there: https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/limiter.html

Have you ever actually witnessed the impact of the sound of an explosion? IRL?

Yes, I did. It sounds a lot better than the explosions in movies, and it has a very high dynamic range.

Did you complain that it sounded "clipped" ?

I've already listened to clipped explosion sounds in movies. They are horrible in my opinion.

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commented Aug 28, 2019

@HybridDog thanks for the link.
When I have some time maybe Ill play with 'explode' a bit more then.
Just right now I have zero interest in it. Ive better things to spend my time on than to work at this and get no feedback or responses for days again in spite of flat out asking for a few moments of peoples time to have a quick look.
I realize people are busy but so am I, and I did this to help due to the situation.

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commented Aug 28, 2019

Paramat + SmallJoker - sfan5 = 1

Note that the approval rules don't work like that, even when a coredev gives explicit disapproval.
Also, I did say that I do not disapprove of the new sounds based on the issue with clipping.

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commented Aug 29, 2019

I want to apologise for my earlier intent to merge without 2 approvals, that was a mistake. I should not have responded that way to a threat of PR closure.
Despite what i wrote, if SmallJoker had not supported a merge on IRC i probably would not have merged this.

TumeniNodes, please try to not threaten closure of PRs in future. Because our time is limited it won't make a review happen, and in this case a PR closure would have wasted a large amount of your own time and all the time core devs spent reviewing.
If you get impatient waiting for review, the best thing to do is forget about the PR and move on to something new.

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commented Aug 29, 2019

The current sounds are OK. Some tweaking would surely not be wrong, either.

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commented Aug 29, 2019

TumeniNodes, please try to not threaten closure of PRs in future.

I was feeling bitchy, happens to the best of us. Plus I felt this particular issue was a bit of a priority and should have gotten a bit more attention. It may have been easier and quicker to have come to better editing with more input from you guys.
You guys know I am normally very easy going, this particular situation just pushed a button with me for some reason. Some of the reasons exist outside of MT/MTG so I apologize.
I should not allow personal issues to follow me into project related things.

At the same time though, I am just as busy as others. It involved no complicated code to review... just merely a few moments to listen to 3 sounds, and give some feedback. Which was all I was looking for
Water under the bridge... let's move on please : )

The current sounds are OK. Some tweaking would surely not be wrong, either.

They're awesome ; ) (but yes, some further tweaking will be done eventually) I will eventually get explosion cleaner and I want to make gunpowder_burning smoother during the transition from one to the next.

(by "priority" I did not mean high priority, but just enough to be needed. People d/l MTG were getting a playful "pop" for tnt_explosion and after a while would have started peaking curiosity and drawing even more attention to the situation)

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