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Set delimiter between hours and minutes to colon #1882

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@saxicek
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saxicek commented Aug 25, 2014

Changed delimiter between hours and minutes back to colon in Czech language as it is more common than dot. Public media also use colon, for example http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ct24/zive-vysilani/

Set delimiter between hours and minutes to colon
Changed delimiter between hours and minutes back to colon in Czech language as it is more common than dot. Media also use colon, for example http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/ct24/zive-vysilani/
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JakubOnderka commented Aug 25, 2014

Duplicate closed #1806

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saxicek commented Aug 25, 2014

@JakubOnderka Your change is reducing usability of the library. Main purpose of the library is to provide behaviour as per developer expectations. All major public Czech media use colon as separator. Microsoft uses colon as separator. Can you give me one example of major Czech web where time is formatted with dot? It is just not used by anyone. So implementing per some Rules of Czech Orthography and making user do manual changes to get expected behaviour (as illustrated below) just does not make any sense.

moment.locale('cs', {
  longDateFormat : {
    LT: "H:mm"
  }
});

CC @petrbela, @bambuca

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JakubOnderka commented Aug 26, 2014

Can you give me one example of major Czech web where time is formatted with dot?

Czech Wikipedia, for example (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedie:Typografické_rady#.C4.8Cas)

So implementing per some Rules of Czech Orthography

Use dot between hours and minutes is also preferred variant by Czech technical norm ČSN 01 6910 from this year.

otazky-a-odpovedi-k-csn-01-6910_2014_ed1 pdf stranka 35 z 35 2014-08-26 16-47-04 2014-08-26 16-47-07

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saxicek commented Aug 26, 2014

Wikipedia does not represent major Czech web and the link provides suggestion for formatting; it does not represent real use. Also there are many objections against suggested format:
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskuse_k_Wikipedii:Typografick%C3%A9_rady#Dvojte.C4.8Dka_nebo_te.C4.8Dka_v_.C4.8Dasov.C3.BDch_.C3.BAdaj.C3.ADch
Another source is http://zpravy.idnes.cz/norma-korespondence-jazyk-vedec-dao-/domaci.aspx?c=A140724_162901_domaci_hv - both versions can be used.

The question here is not what is correct but what is expected by developer to see when time is formatted. If you check top pages used in the Czech Republic then you will see that:

  1. Google.cz is using colon (check your gmail for proof)
  2. Facebook.com is using colon
  3. Seznam.cz is using colon
  4. Google.com is using colon
  5. Youtube.com is using colon
  6. Idnes.cz is using colon
  7. Novinky.cz is using colon
  8. cs.Wikipedia.org is using colon at least for their Czech localization - Stránka byla naposledy editována 15. 7. 2013 v 08:31.
  9. super.cz is using colon
  10. mapy.cz is using colon (public transport routes)

To quote one guy from Wiki discussion above - dot lost its fight with colon long time ago. If dot is used as separator, majority will be forced to find ways how to revert it back to colon.

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ichernev commented Aug 29, 2014

@saxicek ok, thank you for the info. I guess : is the new "hipster" style not yet the official standard, and . is the "old school" legacy / deprecated behavior.

So is there still a place that uses dot, other than wikipedia? We can add a method hourMinSeparator('.'), to turn the old behavior back for those who want it. Also is : accepted in the main, official standard (but . is the default) or its not recognized.

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saxicek commented Aug 29, 2014

@ichernev The picture attached above shows that official is colon by Czech technical norm ČSN 01 6910. It is also accepted by Rules of Czech Orthography (academic). So it is recognized and widely used (Czech Television - public service broadcaster - uses colon as you can see in their direct stream).

Method hourMinSeparator('.') can be added if found useful by others.

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JakubOnderka commented Aug 29, 2014

No. Dot is as separator by Czech technical norm ČSN 01 6910 from this year preferred, colon is only tolerated for back compatibility. And dot is not „old school” or legacy, because norm from year 2007 dot in time format not accept at all.

Rules of Czech Orthography require as hours and minutes delimiter only dot, colon is not supported.

So I think the best solution is use dot and users, which requires non standard delimiter, can change locale by few lines.

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saxicek commented Aug 29, 2014

@JakubOnderka, opinion not supported by evidence is useless. You are suggesting here that colon is not supported. Why does majority use it then? I provided evidence for top 10 Czech webs, public television broadcaster. Shall I attach screen shot of iOS or MS Windows with Czech localization, other Czech TVs for further evidence? You are basically saying that all media and software houses in Czech Republic use unsupported format. That is quite strong accusation! More likely you are pushing format used by minority which should not be the default variant in Moment.js.

@ichernev ichernev added this to the 2.8.3 milestone Sep 5, 2014

ichernev added a commit that referenced this pull request Sep 5, 2014

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ichernev commented Sep 5, 2014

Merged in a175b47

@ichernev ichernev closed this Sep 5, 2014

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petrbela commented Sep 5, 2014

👍

@saxicek saxicek deleted the saxicek:patch-1 branch Sep 6, 2014

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