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Proposed Change to COC. #1

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@mcneely

mcneely commented Apr 12, 2018

This is a proposed change to the Weapons policy of the COC. I know of multiple individuals in the group who conceal to carry who would be affected by this. In recent months, after being put into some unsafe situations, I have considered getting a concealed to carry myself. Unless Nashville PHP is willing to provide security for its events, it is very much not acceptable to disallow responsible members to carry personal protection and could be seen as negligence.

mcneely added some commits Apr 12, 2018

Show outdated Hide outdated code_of_conduct.md
@@ -45,7 +45,7 @@ The following behaviors are considered harassment and are unacceptable within ou
## 5. Weapons Policy
No weapons will be allowed at Nashville PHP events, community spaces, or in other spaces covered by the scope of this Code of Conduct. Weapons include but are not limited to guns, explosives (including fireworks), and large knives such as those used for hunting or display, as well as any other item used for the purpose of causing injury or harm to others. Anyone seen in possession of one of these items will be asked to leave immediately and will only be allowed to return without the weapon. Attendees are further expected to comply with all state and local laws on this matter.
Except in emergency situations, no unholsterd weapons will be allowed to be openly displayed at Nashville PHP events, community spaces, or in other spaces covered by the scope of this Code of Conduct. Weapons include but are not limited to guns, explosives (including fireworks), and large knives such as those used for hunting or display, as well as any other item used for the purpose of causing injury or harm to others. Anyone seen brandishing or using of one of these items in an unholstered or unconcealed manner, will be asked to reholster or conceal said weaponry or in failing that be asked to leave immediately and will only be allowed to return without the weapon. Attendees are further expected to comply with all state and local laws on this matter, including the carrying of required permits, as well as the requirements of the host venue.

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@pmjones

pmjones Apr 12, 2018

s/unholsterd/unholstered

Perhaps consider "no unconcealed weapons" instead, since pocket knives etc. can be clipped into pockets but are not holstered.

Further, perhaps consider leaving the original language, then add an exception for CCW permit holders. That emphasizes the licensing requirement, and that the weapon is to stay concealed.

@pmjones

pmjones Apr 12, 2018

s/unholsterd/unholstered

Perhaps consider "no unconcealed weapons" instead, since pocket knives etc. can be clipped into pockets but are not holstered.

Further, perhaps consider leaving the original language, then add an exception for CCW permit holders. That emphasizes the licensing requirement, and that the weapon is to stay concealed.

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@druid628

druid628 Apr 12, 2018

I agree with @pmjones here, especially considering the original language with the exception of legal permit holders.
If I'm carrying concealed, no one should know, I wouldn't want anyone to know. I'm willing to let people assume what they want, if they feel better thinking I'm not carrying, I'm more than willing to let them think that.

@druid628

druid628 Apr 12, 2018

I agree with @pmjones here, especially considering the original language with the exception of legal permit holders.
If I'm carrying concealed, no one should know, I wouldn't want anyone to know. I'm willing to let people assume what they want, if they feel better thinking I'm not carrying, I'm more than willing to let them think that.

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@moorea5551

moorea5551 Apr 12, 2018

Agreed with both previous comments. Something to the effect of, "No weapons are allowed except where permitted by law."

@moorea5551

moorea5551 Apr 12, 2018

Agreed with both previous comments. Something to the effect of, "No weapons are allowed except where permitted by law."

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mcneely Apr 12, 2018

I had a friend in Chicago who has a concealed to carry permit. She knew the event she was going to had a policy against guns but carried anyway. On the way back her car she was followed by three males, she warned them to not come any closer but they continued approaching so she pulled the gun and shot one of them. The three took off and last I heard the police never caught them. Had she not been carrying things could have turned out much worse. You don't think it can happen, but it can.

mcneely commented Apr 12, 2018

I had a friend in Chicago who has a concealed to carry permit. She knew the event she was going to had a policy against guns but carried anyway. On the way back her car she was followed by three males, she warned them to not come any closer but they continued approaching so she pulled the gun and shot one of them. The three took off and last I heard the police never caught them. Had she not been carrying things could have turned out much worse. You don't think it can happen, but it can.

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pmjones Apr 12, 2018

Indeed, concealed-carry permit holders are more law-abiding even than the police: http://dailycaller.com/2016/08/10/report-concealed-carry-permit-holders-are-more-law-abiding-than-police/

pmjones commented Apr 12, 2018

Indeed, concealed-carry permit holders are more law-abiding even than the police: http://dailycaller.com/2016/08/10/report-concealed-carry-permit-holders-are-more-law-abiding-than-police/

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pmjones Apr 12, 2018

Still a bit loose, I think. Perhaps this, which leaves the original language, but adds a note about state licensure:

No weapons will be allowed at Nashville PHP events, community spaces, or in other spaces covered by the scope of this Code of Conduct. Weapons include but are not limited to guns, explosives (including fireworks), and large knives such as those used for hunting or display, as well as any other item used for the purpose of causing injury or harm to others. Anyone seen in possession of one of these items will be asked to leave immediately and will only be allowed to return without the weapon. Persons with valid government-issued concealed-carry permits are allowed to retain their permit-related concealed weapons. Attendees are further expected to comply with all state and local laws , as well as all venue requirements, on this matter.

pmjones commented Apr 12, 2018

Still a bit loose, I think. Perhaps this, which leaves the original language, but adds a note about state licensure:

No weapons will be allowed at Nashville PHP events, community spaces, or in other spaces covered by the scope of this Code of Conduct. Weapons include but are not limited to guns, explosives (including fireworks), and large knives such as those used for hunting or display, as well as any other item used for the purpose of causing injury or harm to others. Anyone seen in possession of one of these items will be asked to leave immediately and will only be allowed to return without the weapon. Persons with valid government-issued concealed-carry permits are allowed to retain their permit-related concealed weapons. Attendees are further expected to comply with all state and local laws , as well as all venue requirements, on this matter.

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pmjones Apr 12, 2018

Or, you know, just strike the entire subsection, and it's no longer a NashvillePHP issue at all.

pmjones commented Apr 12, 2018

Or, you know, just strike the entire subsection, and it's no longer a NashvillePHP issue at all.

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mcneely Apr 12, 2018

Changed to use @pmjones wording.

mcneely commented Apr 12, 2018

Changed to use @pmjones wording.

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chancestrickland Apr 12, 2018

Cool, now I have to think about guns and who might have them every single time I go to a meetup. No thanks, think I'll just stay home.

chancestrickland commented Apr 12, 2018

Cool, now I have to think about guns and who might have them every single time I go to a meetup. No thanks, think I'll just stay home.

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pmjones Apr 12, 2018

@chancestrickland -- "who might have them" ? Per the wording, only concealed-carry permit holders, who happen to be attending and carrying; indeed, these people are around you all the time even now. So, it would be no different than your current daily life.

pmjones commented Apr 12, 2018

@chancestrickland -- "who might have them" ? Per the wording, only concealed-carry permit holders, who happen to be attending and carrying; indeed, these people are around you all the time even now. So, it would be no different than your current daily life.

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pmjones Apr 12, 2018

All, please see #2 for an example of how some people here view their political enemies.

pmjones commented Apr 12, 2018

All, please see #2 for an example of how some people here view their political enemies.

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jameslporter Apr 12, 2018

Calm down snowflake. It's a joke.

jameslporter commented Apr 12, 2018

Calm down snowflake. It's a joke.

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druid628 Apr 12, 2018

Jokes aren't necessary here.
They're a waste of time.

druid628 commented Apr 12, 2018

Jokes aren't necessary here.
They're a waste of time.

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jameslporter Apr 12, 2018

And so is this PR. A giant waste of everyone's time. The irony of calling me a political enemy and not inclusive w/ my PR is laughable. There are far more attendees that would be uncomfortable around people with death machines than those that feel the need to carry them around everywhere they go.

jameslporter commented Apr 12, 2018

And so is this PR. A giant waste of everyone's time. The irony of calling me a political enemy and not inclusive w/ my PR is laughable. There are far more attendees that would be uncomfortable around people with death machines than those that feel the need to carry them around everywhere they go.

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pmjones Apr 12, 2018

"There are far more attendees that would be uncomfortable" -- The majority should be able to exclude and demonize the minority? So tolerant; so inclusive.

pmjones commented Apr 12, 2018

"There are far more attendees that would be uncomfortable" -- The majority should be able to exclude and demonize the minority? So tolerant; so inclusive.

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ramsey Apr 12, 2018

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I am locking this conversation before it spirals out of control. The leadership team will be communicating with the group shortly.

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ramsey commented Apr 12, 2018

I am locking this conversation before it spirals out of control. The leadership team will be communicating with the group shortly.

@nashvillephp nashvillephp locked as too heated and limited conversation to collaborators Apr 12, 2018

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rawerner Apr 12, 2018

From the PHP Organizers - Thank you for your patience. We just got a chance to finally sit down and catch up on the conversation. We want you to know that we have tried to thoughtfully take into account all perspectives on the issue.

The PHP meetup exists solely to bring our community of awesome developers together to be better at what we do. This is what we will continue to do. We do not seek to divide; we seek to unite. We understand that this weapons policy has created a divide. Here's what we're doing to remedy the situation:

  • We will be removing the weapons policy from the CoC.
  • We will yield to each venue regarding weapons policies and fully expect attendees to respect it. Attendees should be aware that our current monthly meetup venue does not allow weapons in the building.
  • We will continue to improve the events and make them as welcoming and safe as possible for all.

We would really like to emphasize that we are a community of people from diverse backgrounds with a wide variety of deeply held beliefs, and that is what makes us great. The organizers of the PHP meetup take this concern very seriously, and we want everyone to feel welcome and safe at all our events.

If anyone has felt uncomfortable, un-safe, or unwelcome , please let one of the organizers (@ramsey, @rachelw, @m-bright, @kevin Smith) know.

Thank you for your patience in waiting for our response to the issue. We look forward to seeing you all at the next event!

rawerner commented Apr 12, 2018

From the PHP Organizers - Thank you for your patience. We just got a chance to finally sit down and catch up on the conversation. We want you to know that we have tried to thoughtfully take into account all perspectives on the issue.

The PHP meetup exists solely to bring our community of awesome developers together to be better at what we do. This is what we will continue to do. We do not seek to divide; we seek to unite. We understand that this weapons policy has created a divide. Here's what we're doing to remedy the situation:

  • We will be removing the weapons policy from the CoC.
  • We will yield to each venue regarding weapons policies and fully expect attendees to respect it. Attendees should be aware that our current monthly meetup venue does not allow weapons in the building.
  • We will continue to improve the events and make them as welcoming and safe as possible for all.

We would really like to emphasize that we are a community of people from diverse backgrounds with a wide variety of deeply held beliefs, and that is what makes us great. The organizers of the PHP meetup take this concern very seriously, and we want everyone to feel welcome and safe at all our events.

If anyone has felt uncomfortable, un-safe, or unwelcome , please let one of the organizers (@ramsey, @rachelw, @m-bright, @kevin Smith) know.

Thank you for your patience in waiting for our response to the issue. We look forward to seeing you all at the next event!

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ramsey Apr 12, 2018

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Closing in favor of #3.

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ramsey commented Apr 12, 2018

Closing in favor of #3.

@ramsey ramsey closed this Apr 12, 2018

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