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4th Battle of Kharkov - 1 turn for BV? #177

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barsoom1717 opened this issue Nov 25, 2018 · 64 comments
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4th Battle of Kharkov - 1 turn for BV? #177

barsoom1717 opened this issue Nov 25, 2018 · 64 comments
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@nicupavel
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@barsoom1717
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Just wondering if I am seeing a glitch. You have to get the two victory objectives (at opposite sides of the map) on the first turn? So, if its not a glitch, I guess its impossible to get a BV on this one? With the two deployment hexes in the middle of the map, my fastest unit can't even drive to either of the objectives in one turn, much less dealing with any opposition..
@barsoom1717
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Has anyone gotten a BV in this scenario? Does it affect the game path any to only get a Victory instead of a BV?

@nicupavel
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It might be an error with the last round of scenario "fixes" I'll check if it makes sense to have 1 turn BV but I don't remember 1 turn BV when I last played the campaign.

@nicupavel nicupavel self-assigned this Nov 26, 2018
@salexgit
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Hi

I am not the one who designed the scenario, but I noticed that sometimes 1 turn for BV is used to model so-called "defensive" scenario. PanzerGeneral did not have a concept of the defensive game, so it is modelled as e.g. 1 turn for BV and X turns for V/TV. I saw similar a trick in other scenarios. In some cases the "defensive" scenario is designed in such a way that you cannot win it at all: the point is that you need to defend your tiles for X turns, after which you "lose", but the campaign continues.

Referring to historical records, the 4 th Battle for Kharkov was a huge meat-grinder comprising Soviet offensive, Germany counter-attack, followed by the Soviet 5th Guard Tank army counter-offensive, which forced Germans to turn into the defensive mode. They almost got ambushed in Kharkov and finally had to leave it to establish a new defensive line at Dnepr.

My recommendation is not to do any changes now in the scenario. I had an idea of changing it a bit to make it closer to historical events; in fact it could be part of more radical changes to the DasReich campaign because some scenarios are not very accurate either. Furthermore, some big DasReich battles are even missing, such as Zhitomyr and Korsun.

@barsoom1717
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Just offering my opinion, but I don't think it is necessarily a good thing to be locked into historical accuracy. In fact, that is one reason I loved the old PG so much, i.e. if you were good enough you could change history. If I'm going to be forced by the game in every scenario to repeat history, I don't think I will (speaking for myself) have much interest in playing.

@marcofango
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marcofango commented Nov 27, 2018 via email

@salexgit
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Hi barsoom

If you take a look at campaigns' descriptions designed for PG and its clones such as OpenPanzer, then you will see that most of them mention explicitly whether it is a historical one or not. DasReich and LSSAH are historical campaings designed by people who love history for gamers who are picky about historical details trying to capture even unit names that took part in particular battles. If you want to have just fun, fair enough, then just pick one of the semi-historical campaigns that are not linked to any particular division or army group. However, having fun should be not used as an argument to ruin historical accuracy of certain campaigns, for which people spent hunders of hours and whose work I personally respect a lot.

Regards, Alex

@barsoom1717
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All good points Alex. I understand there will be people who want extremely historically accurate games. I was a history major in college, so although I understand there are many who want it, for me however, if I want extreme historical accuracy, I just read the books on the subject. But I respect there are people who want that.

I didn’t realize there was a distinction between the campaigns. Could you suggest one of the semi-historical campaigns? The longer and more encompassing the better.

Thanks.

Stephen

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

As an example, if you visit the following website, you will see a number of different campaigns.
http://www.adlerkorps.com/

Some of them are more or less accurate historical ones, while some of them are semi-historical in a sense that they do not follow any particular unit/division. Some of them are purely fictional, such as Red World Order :)

OpenPanzer is just an engine that is capable of processing those campaign files and we usually take them as they are. Sometimes we of course introduce minor fixes and corrections :)

@barsoom1717
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Are there any instructions anywhere on how to load those campaigns into OpenPanzer? There are several there I would like to try.

Stephen

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

Unlike PG, where you could just copy/paste the corresponding campaign files into SCENARIO folder, OpenPanzer uses different file formats; in other words we need to convert PG campaign files.

I converted several campaigns from the aforementioned website, but they did not become part of the official release (yet) due to lack of testing. So, if there is a campaign that you are interested in, let me know, and maybe we can make some intermediate "beta" version. I personally would more than welcome you testing those campaigns in OpenPanzer.

Regards, Alex

@barsoom1717
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Thanks so much Alex, I really appreciate it. Yes, that would be great. Looking at the campaigns available; any one of these would be awesome: German World campaign (original), Greater Europe, or Blitz 2008.

Stephen

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

Ok, I will do my best to convert those campaigns asap. I cannot promise that they will immediately become available as e.g. online beta because it is not controlled by me. However, I can try to prepare an offline package with those campaigns included so that you can try them locally on a desktop computer.

Regards, Alex

@barsoom1717
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Thank you Alex. I look forward to playing and testing the new campaigns.

Stephen

@LaughtersGrave
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I'm doing this now and I can confirm it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a first turn victory.

This is definitely a bug that needs to be fixed.

It's impossible to do this map in under 6 turns as there's no air transports and there's a river you have to cross in two places, plus get behind the impassible escarpment which has a major objective where the is insanely well entrenched (I think it was 30 or more)

@barsoom1717
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Glad to know it wasn't just me 😀

@salexgit
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salexgit commented Dec 2, 2018

Hi LaughtersGrave

As I was trying to explain earlier, PGII supported only type of scenario: take all the victory hexes. Scenario settings and game engine did not support other cases, such as defend hexes, protect a particular unit, etc (as far as I know OpenGeneral game introduced all those types). However, as people wanted to model some defensive scenarios, they ended up with the idea of making BV impossible by setting it to e.g. 1 turn. I saw some scenarios which cannot win at all, only "lose", because the goal was to defend your hexes for X turns.
At the end the whole concept of brilliant victory is just to please your ego and get a higher prestige; but if you get same prestige regardless of whether you "win" or "lose", it is only the ego that remains :)

Regards, Alex

@salexgit
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salexgit commented Dec 2, 2018

Anyway, I tend to agree the way this scenario is designed is not the best one. I had one idea to change it a bit to make more historically accurate and interesting, so I might need your help guys in testing :)

@LaughtersGrave
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Bv for me is nothing to do with ego, it's too do with getting a unit which you don't otherwise.

@barsoom1717
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Hi Alex, have you had any luck with converting the new campaigns? I've seen a few posts that sounded like you were trying but were running into issues, but wasn't sure.

Stephen

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

One campaign - Wacht am Rhein - is ready; I did not test it thoroughly but at least I did not find any critical issues. Another campaign - 1st SS panzer division "LSSAH", which is conceptually similar to existing 2nd SS panzer division "Das Reich" - has some issues with one particular scenario. I hope it will be resolved soon.
Current plan is to add those campaigns to online beta (together with other fixes). I will post a message once they become available.

Regards, Alex

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Dec 19, 2018 via email

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

Two German campaigns have been added to the project repository, but I cannot say when they become available in the online version. If you want to test them asap - which I would appreciate a lot - then you can download the offline game package.
https://sites.google.com/site/openpanzeroffline/downloads

NOTE: New campaigns are provided with almost zero additional changes, so if you notice something strange or weird, feel free to report. "Rostov defense" scenario from LSSAH will not definitely work, but I have a workaround for it which I might share later. Have fun...!

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Dec 26, 2018 via email

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

I must have been more precise... Yes, you will be able to play on your computer, but not on a tablet.

I forgot to mention that "offline" package is based on the previous v2.9.7 version. I plan to compile the latest v3.0.0. package and will let you know when it is ready.

Regards, Alex

@LaughtersGrave
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Has the 4th battle map been fixed to give you at least a few turns to achieve a brilliant victory yet?

@salexgit
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Hi LaughtersGrave

I saw that Nicu had committed the corresponding change to the repository, so it will be part of the official game once a new version is released. By the way, I still hold the opinion that the change was wrong - it was intentional behaviour for the "defense" scenario. I am copy/pasting below one scenario description from the "LSSAH" campaign. LSSAH campaign has a lot of scenarios like that, which unlike the offensive scenario, has either TV or L outcome.

1st SS-Panzer Division LAHSS-Brigadefuhrer Theodor Wisch
The Battle of CaenJuly 8th, 1944Operation Charnwood
On the 8th July the Allies launched Operation Charnwood, an operation to secure the city of Caen. The Leibstandarte, along with other German units was rushed to the British sector and until the 9th was engaged in repulsing the attack, which cost the life of former Leibstandarte regimental commander and current Hitlerjugend commander Fritz Witt, killed in his HQ by naval gunfire
(Only a TV or a L is possible here. You must hold out until the last turn and then take the roadblock hex with the reinforcement that shows up to get a TV.)"

Regards, Alex

@barsoom1717
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Alex, I've downloaded the zip file and extracted it with Zip Extractor. I then clicked on the "index" file, but it just opens the file in Chrome without launching the game. What am I doing wrong?

Stephen

@salexgit
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Hi

Which OS do you use? There should be launch scripts in the root folder - win_chrome.sh, win_firefox.sh, linux_chrome.sh, linux_firefox - so use the corresponding script depending on your OS and the preferred browser.
If you plan to use Chrome, then you must close all open windows before launching the game. This is because Chrome does not allow local file access by default, while the game needs it.

I have been thinking of creating a nicer package for the game to make it more user friendly, but did not have time to do that.

Regards, Alex

@barsoom1717
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This is what happens when I double click on index.html...
image

@salexgit
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salexgit commented Dec 29, 2018 •
edited

Hi

Hm, it seems that Windows just tries to "open" the batch script instead of "executing" it; same happens for the index.html file. I cannot really say why it occurs but this is due to the Windows environment itself.
Do you have Firefox installed? Right-click on index.html and opening it with Firefox should do the job.

You can also try Linux, I hope it is more predictable than Windows :)

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Dec 29, 2018 via email

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Dec 29, 2018 via email

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

It depends on the OS and the browser settings. If the browser does not ask you explicitly where to save the game, then it does save automatically to e.g. "Downloads" folder.

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Dec 29, 2018 via email

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

Which campaign do you play? Just for my knowledge...

Once you get the package downloaded and installed on your computer, that is it; you do not have to re-do the excercise again.

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Dec 29, 2018 via email

@barsoom1717
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Big show stopper . I'm in Warta Crossing (I believe its the second scenario in that campaign). With 5 turns to go, I clicked Next Turn but the only that happened is the turns left ticked down once. None of the units reset so I could fire or move. I clicked the Next Turn again, and the same thing happened - number of turns left ticked down to 3, however none of my units could fire or move.

@salexgit
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salexgit commented Jan 1, 2019

Hi

I suppose that this is same issue as reported in #139. I experienced same problem once and other players reported it as well. As far as I can see, the issue is not campaign or scenario specific, but rather is triggered by a certain unit combination.

Can you please attach the saved game at a turn right before the problem occurs?

The only way to circumvent around the problem is to replay the scenario from the beginning (or from a certain turn X) so that you end up with a different combination of units and their locations.

@salexgit
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Hi all

Just for information, all the latest changes are available in the online v3.1.0 beta version: http://openpanzer.net/beta/

Thanks to Nicu for releasing it.

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Jan 12, 2019 via email

@salexgit
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Hi Stephen

Yes, two new campaigns are includee into beta v3.1.0.

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Jan 12, 2019 via email

@barsoom1717
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Is Zitadelle the last scenario in the new campaign?

@salexgit
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Hi

Which campaign are you referring to? As far as I remember, none of the campaigns have Zitadelle as the last scenario.

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Jan 20, 2019 via email

@salexgit
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Hi

Operation Zitadelle is not the last scenario in the LSSAH campaign. Do you have an issue with moving to the next scenario?

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Jan 21, 2019 via email

@salexgit
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Hi

Ok, it seems that you have experienced an issue reported by some people and which I also faced once. Once you capture the last victory hex, the game just "freezes" instead of moving to the next scenario. I thought that the issue was already fixed, but maybe not...

If possible, can you please upload here the saved game just before capturing the victory hex?

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Jan 21, 2019 via email

@salexgit
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Hi

It seems that the attachment is missing, at least I cannot see any.

@barsoom1717
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Github won't let me attach it.

@barsoom1717
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Got another way I can get it to you? Says "We don't support that file type".

@salexgit
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Hi

To upload saved game, compress it with e.g. zip archiver and upload here. Github accepts .zip archives.

@barsoom1717
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barsoom1717 commented Jan 21, 2019 via email

@salexgit salexgit mentioned this issue Mar 24, 2019
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stale bot commented Oct 19, 2020

This issue has been automatically marked as stale because it has not had recent activity. It will be closed if no further activity occurs. Thank you for your contributions.

@stale stale bot added the stale Stale issue with no information added/requested label Oct 19, 2020
@stale stale bot closed this as completed Oct 23, 2020
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@nicupavel @salexgit @marcofango @LaughtersGrave @barsoom1717