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Modify the function assigned to NVDA + F9 and F10 to allow selecting the text as well as copying #4636

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nvaccessAuto opened this Issue Nov 20, 2014 · 17 comments

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nvaccessAuto commented Nov 20, 2014

Reported by blindbhavya on 2014-11-20 19:42
Hi,
I have been encountering several situations in recent times, especially in large Word documents where I need to cut a portion of text, or simply select a portion of text to overwrite it with other text.
However, currently, NVDA only allows the user to easily copy text, however, I propose it be modified into selecting text. This would allow easy cutting and overwriting of text, rather than only copying of text.
Hope I was clear enough
Blocking #5316

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Comment 1 by jteh on 2014-11-20 21:42
Is selection easier for sighted users in this respect? A screen reader user has to hold down the shift key and move through the text, but a mouse user has to hold down the mouse button. Neither can select text without this. This leads me to wonder whether this is something that is in scope for a screen reader. Granted, selection is tedious for NVDA users because of the announcement of "selecting" before the text and not after, but this is something we intend to change.

It's worth noting that NVDA+f9 and NVDA+f10 were more intended for copying using the review cursor in places where there isn't a system cursor, though they do of course work elsewhere.

nvaccessAuto commented Nov 20, 2014

Comment 1 by jteh on 2014-11-20 21:42
Is selection easier for sighted users in this respect? A screen reader user has to hold down the shift key and move through the text, but a mouse user has to hold down the mouse button. Neither can select text without this. This leads me to wonder whether this is something that is in scope for a screen reader. Granted, selection is tedious for NVDA users because of the announcement of "selecting" before the text and not after, but this is something we intend to change.

It's worth noting that NVDA+f9 and NVDA+f10 were more intended for copying using the review cursor in places where there isn't a system cursor, though they do of course work elsewhere.

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Comment 2 by blindbhavya (in reply to comment 1) on 2014-11-23 05:48
Replying to jteh:

Is selection easier for sighted users in this respect? A screen reader user has to hold down the shift key and move through the text, but a mouse user has to hold down the mouse button. Neither can select text without this. This leads me to wonder whether this is something that is in scope for a screen reader.

Granted, selection is tedious for NVDA users because of the announcement of >"selecting" before the text and not after, but this is something we intend to change.

Yes, please do change this in the future. This also is a bit difficult to translate, at least it was a bit difficult for Hindi.

It's worth noting that NVDA+f9 and NVDA+f10 were more intended for copying using the review cursor in places where there isn't a system cursor, though they do of course work elsewhere.

Though I don't understand cursors in detail, I have a question, when a system cursor is not present, is it only that copying cannot be done, or can selecting and cutting text not be done as well? If the latter is true, then I guess this can come in the scope of a screen reader.
Also, I know that NVDA is and is meant to be and act like a screen reader, but the proposed change would only increase efficiency and speed of an NVDA user over a sighted person, just my thoughts.
Thanks

nvaccessAuto commented Nov 23, 2014

Comment 2 by blindbhavya (in reply to comment 1) on 2014-11-23 05:48
Replying to jteh:

Is selection easier for sighted users in this respect? A screen reader user has to hold down the shift key and move through the text, but a mouse user has to hold down the mouse button. Neither can select text without this. This leads me to wonder whether this is something that is in scope for a screen reader.

Granted, selection is tedious for NVDA users because of the announcement of >"selecting" before the text and not after, but this is something we intend to change.

Yes, please do change this in the future. This also is a bit difficult to translate, at least it was a bit difficult for Hindi.

It's worth noting that NVDA+f9 and NVDA+f10 were more intended for copying using the review cursor in places where there isn't a system cursor, though they do of course work elsewhere.

Though I don't understand cursors in detail, I have a question, when a system cursor is not present, is it only that copying cannot be done, or can selecting and cutting text not be done as well? If the latter is true, then I guess this can come in the scope of a screen reader.
Also, I know that NVDA is and is meant to be and act like a screen reader, but the proposed change would only increase efficiency and speed of an NVDA user over a sighted person, just my thoughts.
Thanks

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nvaccessAuto Dec 2, 2014

Comment 3 by jteh on 2014-12-02 02:47
Triage note: We're happy to see this implemented. Proposed UX:

  • NVDA+f9 marks start as usual.
  • NVDA+f10 once selects. If selection isn't possible, it reports "Marked for copy".
  • NVDA+f10 twice copies. This is mostly useful where real selection isn't possible.

nvaccessAuto commented Dec 2, 2014

Comment 3 by jteh on 2014-12-02 02:47
Triage note: We're happy to see this implemented. Proposed UX:

  • NVDA+f9 marks start as usual.
  • NVDA+f10 once selects. If selection isn't possible, it reports "Marked for copy".
  • NVDA+f10 twice copies. This is mostly useful where real selection isn't possible.

@jcsteh jcsteh changed the title from modify the function assigned to NVDA + F9 and F10 to select the text, instead of copying it to Modify the function assigned to NVDA + F9 and F10 to allow selecting the text as well as copying Apr 28, 2016

feerrenrut added a commit that referenced this issue Jun 7, 2016

iFix issue #4636 F10 selects and copies
Improvement: Modify the function assigned to NVDA + F9 and F10 to
allow selecting the text as well as copying
#4636

Modified the existing NVDA+F9 then NVDA+F10 behaviour to
select text on the first press of F10, and copy to the
clipboard on the second press of F10.
If the user moves the cursor between the first and second
press of F10, the end marker is updated and the new text
range is selected.
The text will be copied if the end marker is the same
for both pushes of F10.
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feerrenrut Jun 8, 2016

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To clarify the behaviour:
NVDA+F10 (when selection not possible) will report "Can't select, press twice to copy"

The thought behind requiring a double press of F10 to copy rather than auto copying when selection is not posible is to try not to be destructive to the clipboard content.

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feerrenrut commented Jun 8, 2016

To clarify the behaviour:
NVDA+F10 (when selection not possible) will report "Can't select, press twice to copy"

The thought behind requiring a double press of F10 to copy rather than auto copying when selection is not posible is to try not to be destructive to the clipboard content.

feerrenrut added a commit that referenced this issue Jun 15, 2016

NVDA+F9 then NVDA+F10 attempts to select first, then copies
The existing NVDA+F9 then NVDA+F10 behaviour has been modified to select
text on the first press of F10. When F10 is presed twice (in quick
succession) the text is copied to the clipboard.

See issue #4636
#4636

@feerrenrut feerrenrut self-assigned this Jun 16, 2016

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nvaccessAuto commented Jun 24, 2016

Incubated in 733ece0.

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Hi,
After incubating: I tested this in the bash shell provided with git for windows.
error executing script: <bound method GlobalCommands.script_review_copy of <globalCommands.GlobalCommands object at 0x04CD6CD0>> with gesture u"shift+NVDA+'"
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "scriptHandler.pyc", line 186, in executeScript
File "globalCommands.pyc", line 1774, in script_review_copy
File "textInfos\offsets.pyc", line 494, in updateSelection
File "displayModel.pyc", line 559, in _setSelectionOffsets
TypeError: Expanded selections not supported

STR:

  1. Open git bach.
  2. issue the yes command, and then after half a second, type ctrl+c. Alternatively, just type git log or something that produces output.
  3. Go to a point in the output, nvda+f9.
  4. go to a later point, nvda+f10.
    Thanks.
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derekriemer commented Jun 24, 2016

Hi,
After incubating: I tested this in the bash shell provided with git for windows.
error executing script: <bound method GlobalCommands.script_review_copy of <globalCommands.GlobalCommands object at 0x04CD6CD0>> with gesture u"shift+NVDA+'"
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "scriptHandler.pyc", line 186, in executeScript
File "globalCommands.pyc", line 1774, in script_review_copy
File "textInfos\offsets.pyc", line 494, in updateSelection
File "displayModel.pyc", line 559, in _setSelectionOffsets
TypeError: Expanded selections not supported

STR:

  1. Open git bach.
  2. issue the yes command, and then after half a second, type ctrl+c. Alternatively, just type git log or something that produces output.
  3. Go to a point in the output, nvda+f9.
  4. go to a later point, nvda+f10.
    Thanks.
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nvaccessAuto commented Jun 24, 2016

Incubated in 50cf262.

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feerrenrut Jun 24, 2016

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Thanks @derekriemer. This should now be fixed.

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feerrenrut commented Jun 24, 2016

Thanks @derekriemer. This should now be fixed.

feerrenrut added a commit that referenced this issue Jul 11, 2016

NVDA+F9 then NVDA+F10 attempts to select first, then copies
The existing NVDA+F9 then NVDA+F10 behaviour has been modified to select text on the first press of F10. When F10 is presed twice (in quick succession) the text is copied to the clipboard.

Fixes issue #4636
PR #6070

feerrenrut added a commit that referenced this issue Jul 11, 2016

Update changes list for #4636
The existing NVDA+F9 then NVDA+F10 behaviour has been modified to select text on the first press of F10. When F10 is presed twice (in quick succession) the text is copied to the clipboard. (#4636)

@jcsteh jcsteh added this to the 2016.3 milestone Aug 5, 2016

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Merged in 5b51eae.

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jcsteh commented Aug 5, 2016

Merged in 5b51eae.

@jcsteh jcsteh closed this Aug 5, 2016

@feerrenrut feerrenrut removed their assignment Aug 8, 2016

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Honestly, I think the following string is slightly vague:
"Can't select text, press twice to copy"
I'm afraid it is not clear enough that, even though the text is not selected, it is yet marked for copying. I'd like to suggest to make this more clear in an alternative string, which can be included in 2016.4. I'm sorry I did not report this before the translation freeze.

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leonardder commented Aug 24, 2016

Honestly, I think the following string is slightly vague:
"Can't select text, press twice to copy"
I'm afraid it is not clear enough that, even though the text is not selected, it is yet marked for copying. I'd like to suggest to make this more clear in an alternative string, which can be included in 2016.4. I'm sorry I did not report this before the translation freeze.

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Also, I belief that "Press twice to copy or reset the start marker" is not clear. "Or" should be "and", and "reset" should be "remove or empty".

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leonardder commented Aug 24, 2016

Also, I belief that "Press twice to copy or reset the start marker" is not clear. "Or" should be "and", and "reset" should be "remove or empty".

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jcsteh commented Aug 24, 2016

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Ah, so now I understand. But, either I"m just stupid, or it is really not very clearly chosen. It is at least ambiguous as you say indeed. I thought it had to be "and" since pressing nvda+f10 twice both copies to the clipboard and resets the start marker to the initial, undefined state.
How about something like "Press twice to copy or initiate a new selection by resetting the sart marker"?

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leonardder commented Aug 24, 2016

Ah, so now I understand. But, either I"m just stupid, or it is really not very clearly chosen. It is at least ambiguous as you say indeed. I thought it had to be "and" since pressing nvda+f10 twice both copies to the clipboard and resets the start marker to the initial, undefined state.
How about something like "Press twice to copy or initiate a new selection by resetting the sart marker"?

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jcsteh commented Aug 24, 2016

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mohdshara Aug 25, 2016

Hi.
instead of "Can't select text, press twice to copy", why not say "text marked, press twice to copy".

I can confirm that in Firefox upon selecting text this way NVDA stays silent. I also experience times when NVDA stays silent in notepad once you select this way. However, in notepad there's no reliable way to reproduce.

mohdshara commented Aug 25, 2016

Hi.
instead of "Can't select text, press twice to copy", why not say "text marked, press twice to copy".

I can confirm that in Firefox upon selecting text this way NVDA stays silent. I also experience times when NVDA stays silent in notepad once you select this way. However, in notepad there's no reliable way to reproduce.

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instead of "Can't select text, press twice to copy", why not say "text marked, press twice to copy".

Because that doesn't explain why the first press didn't actually achieve anything. The command is documented as selecting text on the first press. If it just said "Text marked", the user would wonder why it wasn't selected. Saying "Can't select text" makes it clear that it isn't possible in this case.

I can confirm that in Firefox upon selecting text this way NVDA stays silent.

I'm addressing that in #6307.

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jcsteh commented Aug 26, 2016

instead of "Can't select text, press twice to copy", why not say "text marked, press twice to copy".

Because that doesn't explain why the first press didn't actually achieve anything. The command is documented as selecting text on the first press. If it just said "Text marked", the user would wonder why it wasn't selected. Saying "Can't select text" makes it clear that it isn't possible in this case.

I can confirm that in Firefox upon selecting text this way NVDA stays silent.

I'm addressing that in #6307.

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Hi:

The eclipse thing can be disregarded. Somehow it is working today, when
it failed yesterday, no clue why.

On 6/24/2016 1:32 AM, Reef Turner wrote:

Thanks @derekriemer https://github.com/derekriemer. This should now
be fixed.


You are receiving this because you were mentioned.
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Derek Riemer
  • Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
  • Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
  • Open source enthusiast.
  • Member of Bridge Cu
  • Avid skiier.

Websites:
Honors portfolio http://derekriemer.com
Awesome little hand built weather app!
http://django.derekriemer.com/weather/

email me at derek.riemer@colorado.edu mailto:derek.riemer@colorado.edu
Phone: (303) 906-2194

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derekriemer commented Aug 26, 2016

Hi:

The eclipse thing can be disregarded. Somehow it is working today, when
it failed yesterday, no clue why.

On 6/24/2016 1:32 AM, Reef Turner wrote:

Thanks @derekriemer https://github.com/derekriemer. This should now
be fixed.


You are receiving this because you were mentioned.
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
#4636 (comment),
or mute the thread
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe/AFGivWXFdyvhvbgUQpxzEzvk5zsBUeaiks5qO4gFgaJpZM4IwtBM.


Derek Riemer
  • Department of computer science, third year undergraduate student.
  • Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
  • Open source enthusiast.
  • Member of Bridge Cu
  • Avid skiier.

Websites:
Honors portfolio http://derekriemer.com
Awesome little hand built weather app!
http://django.derekriemer.com/weather/

email me at derek.riemer@colorado.edu mailto:derek.riemer@colorado.edu
Phone: (303) 906-2194

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