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Make Unified English Braille the default Braille code #6952

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codeofdusk opened this Issue Mar 9, 2017 · 15 comments

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codeofdusk commented Mar 9, 2017

Since UEB has now been adopted as the international standard for English Braille, it should be the default Braille table for English users.

This was referenced Mar 9, 2017

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codeofdusk Mar 9, 2017

Oh forget it.
Here's the patch (somebody can merge this in manually).
0001-Fix-6952.patch.txt

codeofdusk commented Mar 9, 2017

Oh forget it.
Here's the patch (somebody can merge this in manually).
0001-Fix-6952.patch.txt

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jcsteh commented Mar 9, 2017

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dkager Mar 10, 2017

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We definitely shouldn't use grade 2 by default, since some users may not be able to read that. I think grade 1 probably makes sense, though.

Agreed. Especially if this is the default table every users ends up with after installation. Also, why does the patch not set the default input table to UEB? That makes much mroe sense IMO.

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dkager commented Mar 10, 2017

We definitely shouldn't use grade 2 by default, since some users may not be able to read that. I think grade 1 probably makes sense, though.

Agreed. Especially if this is the default table every users ends up with after installation. Also, why does the patch not set the default input table to UEB? That makes much mroe sense IMO.

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jcsteh commented Mar 10, 2017

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leonardder commented Mar 10, 2017

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jcsteh commented Mar 11, 2017

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leonardder commented Mar 11, 2017

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The current US computer braille table sets a bad first impression. I can see why you don't want that as a default. Uncontracted UEB sounds good, assuming the rules for capital signs aren't too complex to be picked up by those who aren't educated in UEB.

How about allowing language maintainers to set their preferred default braille tables?

In The Netherlands the US computer braille table (extended version, #6836) is commonly used. But then, so is the German computer braille table. So what would you choose as the language-specific default?

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dkager commented Mar 11, 2017

The current US computer braille table sets a bad first impression. I can see why you don't want that as a default. Uncontracted UEB sounds good, assuming the rules for capital signs aren't too complex to be picked up by those who aren't educated in UEB.

How about allowing language maintainers to set their preferred default braille tables?

In The Netherlands the US computer braille table (extended version, #6836) is commonly used. But then, so is the German computer braille table. So what would you choose as the language-specific default?

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leonardder commented Mar 11, 2017

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It would maybe make more sense to use the Dutch 6-dot table as default, since that is actually standardized.
Liblouis is also working on table metadata. Part of that is the language, presumably in some standard format. NVDA could then map the operating system language to a braille table. Of course users need to be able to override this with their own choice.

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dkager commented Mar 11, 2017

It would maybe make more sense to use the Dutch 6-dot table as default, since that is actually standardized.
Liblouis is also working on table metadata. Part of that is the language, presumably in some standard format. NVDA could then map the operating system language to a braille table. Of course users need to be able to override this with their own choice.

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Liblouis is also working on table metadata. Part of that is the language, presumably in some standard format. NVDA could then map the operating system language to a braille table. Of course users need to be able to override this with their own choice.

I think this is a very good point to implement. We can do this in a similar way nvda's language is selected in espeaks initialization.

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leonardder commented Mar 11, 2017

Liblouis is also working on table metadata. Part of that is the language, presumably in some standard format. NVDA could then map the operating system language to a braille table. Of course users need to be able to override this with their own choice.

I think this is a very good point to implement. We can do this in a similar way nvda's language is selected in espeaks initialization.

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I feel there's some serious scope confusion/bloat happening here. :)

Having language specific default tables is definitely ideal, but is a much larger chunk of work than just changing the default. I don't think the liblouis metadata is going to be sufficient for this (even once it is finally ready). Unless I'm missing something, yes, it will specify the language of a table, but there are already multiple tables per language, so that isn't helpful. We need to be able to choose a single default. Regardless, this should be addressed separately.

As for changing the default we have right now, if non-English languages really feel U.S. computer braille is a better default than UEB grade 1, I think we should drop this idea altogether until we have language specific defaults. I'd like to see solid arguments as to why U.S. computer braille is better for beginning users, though; see #6952 (comment) for what I don't think this is the case. Note that @dkager seems happy enough with UEB grade 1 as the default; see #6952 (comment).

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jcsteh commented Mar 13, 2017

I feel there's some serious scope confusion/bloat happening here. :)

Having language specific default tables is definitely ideal, but is a much larger chunk of work than just changing the default. I don't think the liblouis metadata is going to be sufficient for this (even once it is finally ready). Unless I'm missing something, yes, it will specify the language of a table, but there are already multiple tables per language, so that isn't helpful. We need to be able to choose a single default. Regardless, this should be addressed separately.

As for changing the default we have right now, if non-English languages really feel U.S. computer braille is a better default than UEB grade 1, I think we should drop this idea altogether until we have language specific defaults. I'd like to see solid arguments as to why U.S. computer braille is better for beginning users, though; see #6952 (comment) for what I don't think this is the case. Note that @dkager seems happy enough with UEB grade 1 as the default; see #6952 (comment).

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dkager Jun 4, 2017

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In looking through open braille issues I found this one again.

As for changing the default we have right now, if non-English languages really feel U.S. computer braille is a better default than UEB grade 1, I think we should drop this idea altogether until we have language specific defaults. I'd like to see solid arguments as to why U.S. computer braille is better for beginning users, though; [...]

One reason why U.S. computer braille is easier (not better as such) is that it has very basic rules for capitalization and numbers: they have their own symbols. For example, UEB has a different capital sign in Unified English Braille than Ueb. In fact, the capital sign isn't standardized across non-English languages, so somebody is bound to be unfamiliar with the UEB approach. Furthermore, signs like the quote (") change based on context. For example, in "quote (") quote" I see 3 different braille signs for this symbol when using UEB.

The flip side of this is that the number sign, period and comma do match Dutch literary braille, and probably many others. But they aren't standardized either. For example, in Finnish braille the UEB period (⠲) corresponds to the exclamation mark.

Long story short: you can't win. But maybe we can decide on a default table now that we have discussed it for a while. I would propose UEB grade 1 inspite of the caveats above. I say that mostly because UEB goes beyond the U.S. and therefore will be familiar to a large user base. Probably the largest single user base of any table in liblouis.

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dkager commented Jun 4, 2017

In looking through open braille issues I found this one again.

As for changing the default we have right now, if non-English languages really feel U.S. computer braille is a better default than UEB grade 1, I think we should drop this idea altogether until we have language specific defaults. I'd like to see solid arguments as to why U.S. computer braille is better for beginning users, though; [...]

One reason why U.S. computer braille is easier (not better as such) is that it has very basic rules for capitalization and numbers: they have their own symbols. For example, UEB has a different capital sign in Unified English Braille than Ueb. In fact, the capital sign isn't standardized across non-English languages, so somebody is bound to be unfamiliar with the UEB approach. Furthermore, signs like the quote (") change based on context. For example, in "quote (") quote" I see 3 different braille signs for this symbol when using UEB.

The flip side of this is that the number sign, period and comma do match Dutch literary braille, and probably many others. But they aren't standardized either. For example, in Finnish braille the UEB period (⠲) corresponds to the exclamation mark.

Long story short: you can't win. But maybe we can decide on a default table now that we have discussed it for a while. I would propose UEB grade 1 inspite of the caveats above. I say that mostly because UEB goes beyond the U.S. and therefore will be familiar to a large user base. Probably the largest single user base of any table in liblouis.

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leonardder Jun 12, 2017

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I just discovered that there is a ticket (#290) for language based braille table defaults.

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leonardder commented Jun 12, 2017

I just discovered that there is a ticket (#290) for language based braille table defaults.

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