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Cerebrum as synonym to Telencephalon #1208

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elviram opened this Issue Apr 22, 2016 · 8 comments

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@elviram

elviram commented Apr 22, 2016

Hello,
looking at anatomy terms regarding annotation of diseases, I couldn't find that cerebrum is a synonym of telencephalon. Looking at Dorland's Illustrated Medical Anatomy (and other sources, e.g. MP) it is stated that the cerebrum derives from the telencephalon.
Any clarification on that?

Thank you!

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RDruzinsky Apr 23, 2016

The cerebrum is not an exact synonym of the telencephalon. Only the dorsal
telencephalon or pallium develops into the cerebrum.

see http://purl.obolibrary.org/obo/UBERON_0000203

Robert E. Druzinsky, Ph.D.
Clinical Associate Professor
Dept. of Oral Biology
College of Dentistry
University of Illinois at Chicago
801 S. Paulina
Chicago, IL 60612
druzinsk@uic.edu

Office: 312-996-0406
Lab: 312-996-0629
Website: www.peerj.com/RobertDruzinsky

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Elvira notifications@github.com wrote:

Hello,
looking at anatomy terms regarding annotation of diseases, I couldn't find
that cerebrum is a synonym of telencephalon. Looking at Dorland's
Illustrated Medical Anatomy (and other sources, e.g. MP) it is stated that
the cerebrum derives from the telencephalon.
Any clarification on that?

Thank you!


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#1208

RDruzinsky commented Apr 23, 2016

The cerebrum is not an exact synonym of the telencephalon. Only the dorsal
telencephalon or pallium develops into the cerebrum.

see http://purl.obolibrary.org/obo/UBERON_0000203

Robert E. Druzinsky, Ph.D.
Clinical Associate Professor
Dept. of Oral Biology
College of Dentistry
University of Illinois at Chicago
801 S. Paulina
Chicago, IL 60612
druzinsk@uic.edu

Office: 312-996-0406
Lab: 312-996-0629
Website: www.peerj.com/RobertDruzinsky

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Elvira notifications@github.com wrote:

Hello,
looking at anatomy terms regarding annotation of diseases, I couldn't find
that cerebrum is a synonym of telencephalon. Looking at Dorland's
Illustrated Medical Anatomy (and other sources, e.g. MP) it is stated that
the cerebrum derives from the telencephalon.
Any clarification on that?

Thank you!


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#1208

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elviram Apr 25, 2016

I agree. My question was, and maybe I didn't make it clear, why the cerebrum is stated as a synonym to telencephalos, see http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ols/beta/ontologies/uberon/terms?iri=http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.obolibrary.org%2Fobo%2FUBERON_0001893

elviram commented Apr 25, 2016

I agree. My question was, and maybe I didn't make it clear, why the cerebrum is stated as a synonym to telencephalos, see http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ols/beta/ontologies/uberon/terms?iri=http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.obolibrary.org%2Fobo%2FUBERON_0001893

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RDruzinsky Apr 25, 2016

In that case, I don't know. It is not correct.

Robert E. Druzinsky, Ph.D.
Clinical Associate Professor
Dept. of Oral Biology
College of Dentistry
University of Illinois at Chicago
801 S. Paulina
Chicago, IL 60612
druzinsk@uic.edu

Office: 312-996-0406
Lab: 312-996-0629
Website: www.peerj.com/RobertDruzinsky

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Elvira notifications@github.com wrote:

I agree. My question was, and maybe I didn't make it clear, why the
cerebrum is stated as a synonym to telencephalos, see
http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ols/beta/ontologies/uberon/terms?iri=http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.obolibrary.org%2Fobo%2FUBERON_0001893


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#1208 (comment)

RDruzinsky commented Apr 25, 2016

In that case, I don't know. It is not correct.

Robert E. Druzinsky, Ph.D.
Clinical Associate Professor
Dept. of Oral Biology
College of Dentistry
University of Illinois at Chicago
801 S. Paulina
Chicago, IL 60612
druzinsk@uic.edu

Office: 312-996-0406
Lab: 312-996-0629
Website: www.peerj.com/RobertDruzinsky

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 8:54 AM, Elvira notifications@github.com wrote:

I agree. My question was, and maybe I didn't make it clear, why the
cerebrum is stated as a synonym to telencephalos, see
http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ols/beta/ontologies/uberon/terms?iri=http%3A%2F%2Fpurl.obolibrary.org%2Fobo%2FUBERON_0001893


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#1208 (comment)

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cmungall Apr 25, 2016

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I don't think there is a correct or not correct here. The term "cerebrum" is ambiguous, historically being used for different structures.

We take neuronames as an authoriative source, which notes the ambiguity of the term Cerebrum, and provides as first definition "In the classical segmentation of the CNS on the basis of topology and internal structure, the cerebrum is equivalent to the endbrain component of the forebrain. "

cerebrum: http://braininfo.rprc.washington.edu/centraldirectory.aspx?ID=2068

endbrain: http://braininfo.rprc.washington.edu/CentralDirectory.aspx?ID=31&questID=2068

In uberon, we call endbrain "telencephalon" (despite some connotations the latter is a developmental classification only), and as these are equivalent according to neuronames, we make an exact syn. We can weaken the syn scope if the other definitions are widespread. Or we can even add a new class if there is a separate defined division

Also some discussion here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cerebrum/Archive_1

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cmungall commented Apr 25, 2016

I don't think there is a correct or not correct here. The term "cerebrum" is ambiguous, historically being used for different structures.

We take neuronames as an authoriative source, which notes the ambiguity of the term Cerebrum, and provides as first definition "In the classical segmentation of the CNS on the basis of topology and internal structure, the cerebrum is equivalent to the endbrain component of the forebrain. "

cerebrum: http://braininfo.rprc.washington.edu/centraldirectory.aspx?ID=2068

endbrain: http://braininfo.rprc.washington.edu/CentralDirectory.aspx?ID=31&questID=2068

In uberon, we call endbrain "telencephalon" (despite some connotations the latter is a developmental classification only), and as these are equivalent according to neuronames, we make an exact syn. We can weaken the syn scope if the other definitions are widespread. Or we can even add a new class if there is a separate defined division

Also some discussion here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cerebrum/Archive_1

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cmungall Apr 25, 2016

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Not sure if anyone has access to https://www.crcpress.com/Neuroanatomy-and-the-Neurologic-Exam-A-Thesaurus-of-Synonyms-Similar-Sounding/Anthoney/9780849386312

But I believe this may have been incorporated into neuronames already

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cmungall commented Apr 25, 2016

Not sure if anyone has access to https://www.crcpress.com/Neuroanatomy-and-the-Neurologic-Exam-A-Thesaurus-of-Synonyms-Similar-Sounding/Anthoney/9780849386312

But I believe this may have been incorporated into neuronames already

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RDruzinsky Apr 26, 2016

Unfortunately, the Anthoney text is not available to me via my library.
However, it does seem that the text in Neuronames follows Anthoney.

From the definition on Neuronames one could also say that forebrain,
prosencephalon, and cerebrum are synonymous. Clinicians and undergraduate
biology students may use the terms in that way, but I would argue that this
is imprecise and just wrong. Neuronames also cites Swanson (2004), but my
guess is that almost no neuroanatomy texts would make those terms
synonymous. Just browsing books in my office:
Standring, et al., Gray's Anatomy 39th ed., 2005
Butler and Hodos, Comparative Vertebrate Neuroanatomy, 1st ed., 1996
Nolte, The Human Brain, 5th ed., 2002 In the glossary, Cerebral Hemisphere
is defined as "The telencephalic derivatives on each side of the CNS,
together with a few nontelencephalic but adjoining structures. Includes the
cerebral cortex, striatum, globus pallidus, hippocampus, amygdala, and the
white matter pathways interconnecting them."

I see your point but I am not comfortable.

Robert E. Druzinsky, Ph.D.
Clinical Associate Professor
Dept. of Oral Biology
College of Dentistry
University of Illinois at Chicago
801 S. Paulina
Chicago, IL 60612
druzinsk@uic.edu

Office: 312-996-0406
Lab: 312-996-0629
Website: www.peerj.com/RobertDruzinsky

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Chris Mungall notifications@github.com
wrote:

Not sure if anyone has access to
https://www.crcpress.com/Neuroanatomy-and-the-Neurologic-Exam-A-Thesaurus-of-Synonyms-Similar-Sounding/Anthoney/9780849386312

But I believe this may have been incorporated into neuronames already


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#1208 (comment)

RDruzinsky commented Apr 26, 2016

Unfortunately, the Anthoney text is not available to me via my library.
However, it does seem that the text in Neuronames follows Anthoney.

From the definition on Neuronames one could also say that forebrain,
prosencephalon, and cerebrum are synonymous. Clinicians and undergraduate
biology students may use the terms in that way, but I would argue that this
is imprecise and just wrong. Neuronames also cites Swanson (2004), but my
guess is that almost no neuroanatomy texts would make those terms
synonymous. Just browsing books in my office:
Standring, et al., Gray's Anatomy 39th ed., 2005
Butler and Hodos, Comparative Vertebrate Neuroanatomy, 1st ed., 1996
Nolte, The Human Brain, 5th ed., 2002 In the glossary, Cerebral Hemisphere
is defined as "The telencephalic derivatives on each side of the CNS,
together with a few nontelencephalic but adjoining structures. Includes the
cerebral cortex, striatum, globus pallidus, hippocampus, amygdala, and the
white matter pathways interconnecting them."

I see your point but I am not comfortable.

Robert E. Druzinsky, Ph.D.
Clinical Associate Professor
Dept. of Oral Biology
College of Dentistry
University of Illinois at Chicago
801 S. Paulina
Chicago, IL 60612
druzinsk@uic.edu

Office: 312-996-0406
Lab: 312-996-0629
Website: www.peerj.com/RobertDruzinsky

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Chris Mungall notifications@github.com
wrote:

Not sure if anyone has access to
https://www.crcpress.com/Neuroanatomy-and-the-Neurologic-Exam-A-Thesaurus-of-Synonyms-Similar-Sounding/Anthoney/9780849386312

But I believe this may have been incorporated into neuronames already


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#1208 (comment)

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cmungall Apr 26, 2016

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We have a separate class for UBERON:0001869 ! cerebral hemisphere

this has "cerebrum" as a related synonym.

Would you be more comfortable if we weakened the scope of the cerebrum synonym for telencephalon to related?

Member

cmungall commented Apr 26, 2016

We have a separate class for UBERON:0001869 ! cerebral hemisphere

this has "cerebrum" as a related synonym.

Would you be more comfortable if we weakened the scope of the cerebrum synonym for telencephalon to related?

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RDruzinsky Apr 26, 2016

Yes. I would be much happier with related.

This terminology is very confused, especially when it is used in an
imprecise manner.

Robert E. Druzinsky, Ph.D.
Clinical Associate Professor
Dept. of Oral Biology
College of Dentistry
University of Illinois at Chicago
801 S. Paulina
Chicago, IL 60612
druzinsk@uic.edu

Office: 312-996-0406
Lab: 312-996-0629
Website: www.peerj.com/RobertDruzinsky

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Chris Mungall notifications@github.com
wrote:

We have a separate class for UBERON:0001869
http://purl.obolibrary.org/obo/UBERON_0001869 ! cerebral hemisphere

this has "cerebrum" as a related synonym.

Would you be more comfortable if we weakened the scope of the cerebrum
synonym for telencephalon to related?


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#1208 (comment)

RDruzinsky commented Apr 26, 2016

Yes. I would be much happier with related.

This terminology is very confused, especially when it is used in an
imprecise manner.

Robert E. Druzinsky, Ph.D.
Clinical Associate Professor
Dept. of Oral Biology
College of Dentistry
University of Illinois at Chicago
801 S. Paulina
Chicago, IL 60612
druzinsk@uic.edu

Office: 312-996-0406
Lab: 312-996-0629
Website: www.peerj.com/RobertDruzinsky

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Chris Mungall notifications@github.com
wrote:

We have a separate class for UBERON:0001869
http://purl.obolibrary.org/obo/UBERON_0001869 ! cerebral hemisphere

this has "cerebrum" as a related synonym.

Would you be more comfortable if we weakened the scope of the cerebrum
synonym for telencephalon to related?


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Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#1208 (comment)

@cmungall cmungall closed this in d8e5917 Apr 26, 2016

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