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[website_forum] New spam fighting features #3460

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smack815 opened this issue Nov 4, 2014 · 68 comments

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@smack815
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commented Nov 4, 2014

The forum needs the ability to easily clean up after spammers. The following new features would help users police the forums and keep spammers at a minimum.

  1. A new [spam] link should be listed next to [comment] [close] [edit] [delete] that would close the thread marking it as "spam or advertising" and also downvoting the thread. There should be of course a confirmation dialogue box confirming this action and the user must have enough karma (or maybe more than normally needed to close a thread) to perform this action.
  2. Users with sufficient karma (maybe 1000 or 2000) should be able to see any forum user's profile even if it is unpublished or they have negative karma. This includes all deleted threads not just open and closed threads. This is needed to clean up a spammer account completely.
  3. A new [spam] link should be included on each open question in the profile view of a user. This way you could see all of the posts of a spammer and from their profile mark each as spam, closing and downvoting them from one screen. The action should refresh the view showing the new status of the thread [Closed]. (maybe this should be a high karma feature)

These features are sorely needed in order to keep the helpful members of the forum motivated to self police odoo's forum for free. It can take several minutes to clean up a spammers account completely and without quicker/easier and streamlined methods of doing it, users will eventually give up and simply allow the spammers to degrade the quality of the forums.

@tde-banana-odoo

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commented Nov 4, 2014

Hello,

We plan to add some moderation feature and improve the closing / flagging of posts. I can't say now that everything you propose will be added, but I will link this issue to the task holding several points to improve. Thanks for the suggestion! I will let you know when we move forward to the implementation.

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commented Nov 4, 2014

@tde-banana-odoo thank you for your quick reply. If you would like to brainstorm some ideas, feel free to contact me directly.

@odony

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commented Nov 4, 2014

@smack815 Thanks for your suggestions, this is mostly in line with some of the improvements we have already planned for the future.

Concerning the first suggestion, you can already choose "spam or advertising" when you close a thread using the "Close" button. This does not make any karma difference yet, but it would be easy to associate it with a 5 * downvote for example.

To provide more info, I'd like to add that the spammers on Odoo Help are really motivated and ready to perform many steps manually. Not only are they targeting our platform specifically, but all the last ones I checked had done the full email activation manually in order to get the required karma to post their spam. I verified 100% that the email validation was legit and really done via a real session from a real user, e.g. someone really connected on live.com with a working hotmail address. Obviously the IP address belonged to some foreign VPN (I notified their admin staff but got no answer).
Conclusion: no amount of automated captcha would prevent this, we're talking about human spammers here, not scripts/robots.

Other suggestions:

  • Automatically add a rel="nofollow" attribute (see [1]) or completely remove <a> tags for users who do not have some minimum karma. This partially defeats the purpose of the spams, although there is a chance spammers would ignore it. Note that there is already a karma level for being able to post clickable links, but it has no effect yet if I remember correctly.
  • Support some sort of Akismet-like spam filtering service - this is really a last-resort because of the extra setup complexity and the risk of false positives.

I think that some of these improvements might be doable in 8.0 already. I'll see if we can make a patch in that direction, for example regarding the closing of questions for "spam".

odony added a commit to odoo-dev/odoo that referenced this issue Nov 4, 2014

[FIX] forum: closing spam/offensive questions should give author karm…
…a penalty

This is a partial patch for issue odoo#3460, pending more
improvements and refinements in master.

Currently the karma penalty is hardcoded to 5*downvote penalty,
which may or may not be sufficient to prevent posting, depending
on the other karma levels.
@smack815

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commented Nov 4, 2014

@odony @tde-banana-odoo Some other options, which have their own down sides, include:

  • IP Blocking for 7 days or permanently.
  • Automatic blocking / sandboxing a user based on key words/phrases. Could be more strict based on low karma. So someone with 75+ karma is not accidentally blocked.

Ideas for forum abusers (may not be full out spammers)

  • Quieting a user for several days - They can not comment or ask new questions. (eventually there will be abusers of the forum who are not exactly spammers just abusers)
  • Gamification rule looking for excessive downvoters and automatically punishing them.

The real problem for odoo will be when the spammers realize that they can comment on the blogs where not many people are looking for spam like in the forums. And I don't believe that there are any ways to report spam on the blog pages.

When a user has more than one thread closed for spam and their karma is negative there should be a gamification rule that closes all their posts in the forums and deletes all forum answers and comments as well as all blog comments, etc.

@LeartS

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commented Nov 5, 2014

IMO another good method could be some kind of semi-automatic spam filter: when a new post is created (question/answer/comment) the spam filter checks the content and assigns to it the probability of being spam. Even "simple" algorithms can yield good results for most spam.

If the probability is over a certain value (e.g. 0.5), a "moderator" has to approve the post before anyone else will be able to see it.

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commented Nov 5, 2014

@LeartS That is not a bad idea but since there are no "moderators" it would have to be a high karma user and they should be rewarded karma for reviewing and processing these posts. However this would require a fairly large development effort, dedicated forum users to process the posts and I am not convinced in the overall benefit personally.

Lot of work for little benefit. i.e. more uses pissed that their comments are held up than spammers caught.

odony added a commit that referenced this issue Nov 5, 2014

[FIX] forum: closing spam/offensive questions should give author karm…
…a penalty

This is a partial patch for issue #3460, pending more
improvements and refinements in master.

Currently the karma penalty is hardcoded to 5*downvote penalty,
which may or may not be sufficient to prevent posting, depending
on the other karma levels.
@odony

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commented Nov 6, 2014

For the record:

  • IP blocking is useless for real spammers: they use botnets or VPNs with a different IP each time.
  • Keywords blacklists are an endless quests because the spammers have unlimited imagination and possibilities for obfuscating spam keywords - even the dynamic algorithm such as Akismet do not have a good accuracy and can cause false positives.
    We're talking about spammers who are ready to manually validate their email accounts and specially craft messages that will pass our content filtering. These won't be stopped by a keyword filter or a captcha.
  • Abusers are a minor annoyance as they aren't many and their resources are much more limited than those of spammers - an active community usually has much more good citizens and moderators than abusers.

As @tde-banana-odoo said, ultimately we're thinking of adding a moderation queue for first-posts (and perhaps other kinds of contents), in the form of a toggable option.
This is exactly how it is done on StackOverflow and it completely blocks spammers and abusers. Late answers and posts that are manually flagged by the community are other candidates for entering this queue.

@smack815 This actually works quite well as soon as the community has a critical mass, which is the case on Odoo Help. If you want to convince yourself, try posting a question on any StackExchange board, your first post will be reviewed in a matter of minutes, even on the less active ones.
For less active communities this option could be disabled entirely (@tde-banana-odoo: a flag on each forum?) They are also much less likely to be targeted by spammers who are ready to manually validate their emails, etc.

Concerning blog comments, it would be easy to turn off blog comments as a first counter-measure - and to require a similar email validation step as for the forum.

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commented Nov 6, 2014

@odony One thing that surprises me about the forum is that users do not bother to downvote a spammer, even after they open the thread to see it. Do you think we could give one karma point for any downvote given to a thread closed for spam (given at the moment of closure)?

Will karma be given to people who review and approve posts, it would be fractions of a karma for each post maybe 0.1 karma points each? These karma points could be rewarded by gamification or if they are not karma points it could be badges given for 1000 reviews, 5000 reviews and 10000 reviews. Something to motivate people to actually do the work for free.

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commented Nov 7, 2014

@odony can you tell me how this user got 9 karma points? Do they have deleted forum posts?

https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/user/392045

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commented Nov 7, 2014

@odony @tde-banana-odoo The forums give me a 403 error when I try to close a thread as spam.

403 – Forbidden!
The page you were looking for could not be authorized.

@LeartS

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commented Nov 10, 2014

I get the same error as @smack815.
Closing with another reason (e.g. "not a real question") works. I have 739 karma, if it helps.

"Contains offensive or malicious remarks" seems to not work also.

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commented Nov 10, 2014

@smack815 @LeartS Thanks for the notice, there was an access rights problem. Should be working now...

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commented Nov 10, 2014

Can confirm that now closing as spam works.

@smack815

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commented Nov 19, 2014

@odony is there a pad or development branch that I can follow the development? Thanks

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commented Dec 20, 2014

Has there been any development started on this or is it still in the queue?

@smack815

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commented Jan 29, 2015

@odony @tde-banana-odoo @LeartS The spammers are getting smarter. They are now posting with titles that seems reasonable for the Odoo forums

https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/question/program-reviews-74608
https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/question/method-reviews-74605

I will ask again that a few lines of code be added to block anonymous viewing of all threads closed for reasons of spam and all deleted threads. If you have a valid Odoo account you can, of course, still see the threads just block access to the bots and google surfers.

@Yenthe666

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commented Jan 29, 2015

@smack815 good catch. But there are quite a lot more problems with the forums at the moment.
Have a look at this question: https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/question/how-to-send-an-internal-message-in-openerp-7-0-17629#answer_74577
People with negative karma can still post answers, so they happily spam away on existing (top) answers. There is nothing that we users can do about this. I can downvote all his comments and delete them manually but this will not keep working.

Can you guys atleast implement a safety measure that does not allow posting new comments when you are under -xx karma? (for example -20, so you can never harm innocent users)
All these posts are still indexed by Google to so the spammers are happy.

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commented Jan 29, 2015

@smack815 I'm testing out something on the forum right now:

  • questions posted by people with karma under the karma for posting questions are hidden except for high karma users (karma > 1000)
  • answers posted by people with karma under the karma for answering questions are hidden except for high karma users (karma > 1000)
  • comments posted by people with karma under the karma for commenting are hidden except for high karma users (karma > 1000)

If that works well we could apply this change more permanently to the forum module.

@Yenthe666 the system does prevent users with negative karma from posting - but if they do the full signup including email validation (and they do it!), they are allowed to post questions and answers until someone votes them down.
With the test I'm conducting it will at least automatically hide their contents everywhere as soon as they are downvoted enough, or as soon as a question is closed as spam (= 5 downvotes)

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commented Jan 29, 2015

@odony That explains why the Forum is giving a 403 Forbidden message right now.

May I make one suggestion... Can there be a visual clue that the post/comment is hidden to low karma users. It could be a color clue or a text clue (I like the color clue). This clue helps high karma users to know if they need to do something to help stop the spammer or if the firestorm is already over.

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commented Jan 29, 2015

@odony I feel like I do nothing but complain.... sorry but while I have your attention and you are in the forum module.... The delete comment X is not working for deleting your own comments nor for deleting comments written by others.

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commented Jan 29, 2015

@odony I have just now confirmed this is broken in the official V8 fork.

Neither the admin nor my user can delete comments. Should I make a new issue for the forum software?

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commented Jan 29, 2015

@smack815 Yes sure, please open an issue for this. As for the 403 error, it's caused by my experiment not working as it should, I'll retry something else later, sorry 😞

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commented Jan 29, 2015

@odony The forum members thank you.

@lukebranch

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commented Feb 27, 2015

@odony ,

Please consider implementing the first comment/post queue soon. Please take a look at the closed as spam posts from today in the forum, it's getting out of hand.

The main problems are one accounting posting 20-30 posts within the space of a few minutes, and they could definitely be curbed quite quickly with a simple first-post/first-comment queue as you have suggested.

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commented Feb 27, 2015

I just came across this article regarding how twitter is updating it's abuse reporting tools:

http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/2/7317955/twitter-releases-improved-tools-for-reporting-abuse-and-harassment

perhaps there are some features that Odoo can consider in the future.

I understand the forum is not a top priority in regards to development for the platform, however it is great advertising for the brand, and it's a very important tool for the end user and for developers offering services related to Odoo.

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commented Feb 27, 2015

@lukebranch you have a point that a minor fix should really happen on the long term. Even if it is just a verification queue. I've closed loads of spam threads these last days...
Its affecting the Odoo brand atleast partially and it is very annoying for us, the users.
One question though.. Where do you view the closed as spam posts? Never seemed to find/notice this option?

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commented Feb 27, 2015

@Yenthe666 ,

I haven't found this feature either. I'm just clicking on the username of the spammer and then closing all of their spam posts from there.

I can only see closed posts that i'm working on as I just open a bunch of tabs in the browser to downvote, close and delete them all.

I've closed at least a hundred today. Hopefully Odoo is able to implement some sort of verification queue soon, as the spammer(s) are getting more determined.

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commented Feb 27, 2015

@lukebranch thanks for the reply. Okay I thought I missed something :) I've deleted & closed another 10 or so today. Be sure to edit the posts and get the text out, otherwise they'll rank up in Google which is what they want.

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commented Feb 27, 2015

@Yenthe666 ,

Thanks for letting me know. I thought deleting them would remove them from public view though, right?

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commented Feb 27, 2015

@lukebranch it will remove them from the public view in the lists on the Odoo forums itself. However when you would google for a similar thing as in the title Odoo will show up with all the threads. Even after they are deleted and closed they're still indexed by Google.
And live from the forums right now:
@odony please start taking action on this.

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commented Feb 27, 2015

@lukebranch No deleting and down voting have no affect and are a waste of time. One thread closed as spam will stop the user from posting more. I would avoid giving yourself double work that has no benefits.

All forum threads are publicly accessible even if they are closed and or deleted. They only need to exist in the database to be anonymously recalled. Just open up a browser that is not logged into the forum and go to https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/question/76406

Then add one to the number to see the next spam post in the series... I am sure Google knows how to move up and down forum sequential posts... More efferent than trying to spider an ever changing forum list.

The only thing that needs to be done to keep Google from indexing and offering Odoo spam to the world is to make all forum posts closed for reasons of spam viewable to only logged in users with karma higher than ##.

That is a change easy to make. [/dismount soap box]

Odoo v9 or maybe saas-6 will prevent spammers in the first place it seems so just wait. I have stopped deleting spam. You can continue @Yenthe666 and @lukebranch or let odoo clean up their own website. It's not a priority to me until it's a priority to them. [/2 cents]

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commented Feb 28, 2015

@smack815 ,

Thanks for letting me know. I've just done a google search for 'streaming movies odoo' in google and here are the results:

https://www.google.com.hk/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=MkrxVKuZPKiL8Qf2voDwBw&gws_rd=ssl#q=movie+streaming+odoo+site:www.odoo.com&start=30

There have been a few DMCA takedowns issued from what I can tell for the content in google's search results. There seems to be hundreds if not thousands of them listing in google, and it can't be good for odoo.com's SEO to have all of that spammy content originating from the TLD.

I think the spammers are out to damage the search engine reputation of Odoo (in terms of SEO), and it looks like it's working to a certain extent, and could be hurting your website traffic as a result.

I can try to tackle what I can find in the search engine results that i've closed, however it would be far better if Odoo issued a fix that simply switched off the public access to those posts when they were closed as spam and/or deleted as @smack815 has suggested.

I'm adding [SPAM CONTENT REMOVED MANUALLY] to replace title and content in these posts for what I can find manually. It would also be useful to have a feature for higher karma users to be able to search for posts closed as spam, as this would facilitate easier cleaning up of the forum in the meantime.

FYI - While searching through Odoo spam on google I also came across this in the paid ad results:

http://www.bitrix24.com/alternatives/free-odoo-alternative-openerp.php?gclid=CjwKEAiAyMCnBRDa0Pyex-qswB0SJADKNMKAN3DctyU0uBtwYgyq6FAjxJgZ8TldS4xmIsZ6pwJUBBoChyjw_wcB

I also think you should see this:

Here's a few live examples (I can't delete them like this):

https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/question/the-hunger-games-part-1-2014-online-full-movie-free-69201
https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/question/hq-movie-online-the-hunger-games-mockingjay-part-1-free-full-69223
https://www.odoo.com/fr_FR/forum/help-1/question/w-atch-the-hunger-games-mockingjay-part-1-online-free-full-movie-69206
https://www.odoo.com/fr_FR/forum/help-1/question/w-atch-the-hunger-games-mockingjay-part-1-online-free-full-movie-69200
https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/question/interstellar-2014-full-movie-free-69222

This post has somehow removed all of the Odoo website interface and replaced it with a picture of a movie player and a link to a website.

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commented Feb 28, 2015

@lukebranch it's very nice of you to worry about odoo's SEO but I worry about the thousands of odoo users who will be affected by this problem. Once you have written the code to spam Odoo.com it's trivial to spam all the websites that use odoo's software.

No one can convince me that thirty posts in a few minutes were done by a human even if a human registered the account. They are writing code and will use it anywhere they can.

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commented Feb 28, 2015

And spamming a Mom and Pop shop is actually better because they probably will not be reviewing their website daily. So they get more mileage for the same source code.

If I were evil[er] it's what I would do. 😠 (Yes I know evilier is not a word)

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commented Feb 28, 2015

@smack815 ,

I honestly think it is someone using the developer tools in their browser to do this, as it seems sporadic and not at all consistent with a script. I think if it was a script it would be doing far more damage, as I don't think Odoo has any timers on new post submissions, or a first post/comment queue yet.

I've closed spam posts roughly as quickly as they've been created, making me think that there is a human on the other end of the posts.

When before it seemed to be a single person, now it seems like there may be one or two people working together to post at the same time.

I'm sure Odoo is aware of the problem and working towards a solution, as the spam problem has become pretty severe recently. Hopefully a fix is issued in SaaS 6 which I believe will shortly be implemented in Odoo.com along with a new theme i've seen in the runbots.

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commented Mar 2, 2015

The spam is now roughly 50 pages deep at the time of writing, and showing no signs of slowing down.

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commented Mar 2, 2015

@lukebranch they're actually over 100 pages now and are going very fast. They're posting more than 1 post a minute at the moment.
@odony @xmo-odoo @tde-banana-odoo its time for you guys to come in action. Delete all these & start building in a prevention system, please. This is damaging your brand and it is annoying us all.

Update: Since it seemed to come from only a dozen accounts I've deleted & downvoted about 3 pages of spam. They all have negative karma now which prevents them from atleast going ultra-fast..

Update 2: They picked up speed and are now posting over 5 threads a minute. I deleted over 10 pages and 'locked' over 20 accounts but I can't even keep up. I've did my best but I can't even hold them down so its up to the Odoo developers.

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commented Mar 2, 2015

@Yenthe666 ,

Yeah, i've noticed. It seems like there's a team of them working together. It's 150 pages deep now. I could delete spam all day and not even make a dent in it.

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commented Mar 2, 2015

@lukebranch you shouldn't even try, I tried it for 40 minutes but I can't even slow them down.
Honestly, this is now the problem of Odoo, not ours. We have been warning them since november for this and they did not look into any fixes, not even temp ones.

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commented Mar 2, 2015

@Yenthe666 I would not say that they have done nothing. They have put a few patches on the system to make it a little bit harder. But now someone will spend development time to weed out and clean up the database.

@lukebranch do you still believe that they are not using scripts?

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commented Mar 2, 2015

@smack815 ,

I think you may be right about the scripts!

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commented Mar 2, 2015

@odony May I kindly request that any tools that get developed to do massive cleanup of the database based on user etc. be included in the saas-6 and Master branches to be used by the community. This problem will be duplicated over the user community if not by these types of attracts, then by other types.

Tools will be very helpful to combat this and save Odoo owners many hours of hand deletion. Thanks for your consideration!

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commented Mar 2, 2015

@odony It seems that forum spammer babara did not register with the forum-activation@odoo.com email before posting 10 spam messages...

forum-spam

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commented Mar 2, 2015

Why do spammers attack. The answer to this is simple: Spammers are happy

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commented Mar 2, 2015

Temporary measures taken this morning (CET):

  • Blocked all IP blocks from the main ISPs where most of the spam posts where
    originating:
  • Added manual activation step (very temporary!)
  • Deleted all posts from users with negative karma
  • Deleted all posts from users with multiple posts and no karma gain (except
    some real users like 393912, 434606 or 412543)
  • @smack815: User 444508 (babara) did perform an email activation (full session
    is here: http://pastebin.com/T2dVtFz2, look at line 337) I think your
    screenshot might have been taken when some of his posts had already been
    deleted, explaining why his karma was back at 0 without visible downvotes.

Sorry, no generic cleanup tool for the above, a couple quick SQL queries based
on user karma.

Permanent measures:

  • Any post by a user with negative karma is now a 404 page except for users
    with high karma.

Coming Soon:

  • New user posts limited to 1 question/answer per 24h until they have more than
    the initial karma
  • ...
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commented Mar 2, 2015

Hmmm, strange, at this moment, still exists, about 300 today's spammers posts, one after the other, from about ~ 3/2/15, 1:17 AM

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commented Mar 2, 2015

@smack815, I'm not sure but this may be the result of my action (negative karma creations)

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commented Mar 3, 2015

@odony ,

Thank you for taking action. These spammers seem very determined, and not motivated by link building alone. I look forward to the seeing the new spam fighting features being integrated into the upcoming SaaS 6 switch on Odoo.com.

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commented Mar 3, 2015

@odony thanks for the enhancement and (temp) fixes!
There does seem to be a lot of spam on the pages though? Starting from page 7 (https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/page/7) up to page 30 (https://www.odoo.com/forum/help-1/page/30) Is there any easy way for you to delete this too?

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commented Mar 3, 2015

Deleted all the remaining spam posts I could find (those mentioned by @smack815 were in there too). If you find any more of them, please be sure to close them as spam so they disappear for normal users and are easier to track for cleanup. Thanks!

@xmo-odoo xmo-odoo closed this Mar 25, 2016

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commented Jun 27, 2016

Sorry that miss this thread, I use to fight with those spammers too. My steps are downvote and close the answer and also open the spammer profile to quickly downvote and open to close as spam all their questions. But these days seems that Odoo block the access for the profile link that used to be on the username of who posted. Should I open an issue for that? to allow anyone to be able to open the user profile by clicking on the username?

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