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Add Widerspruch-as-a-service #227

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stkdiretto opened this issue Jan 22, 2018 · 16 comments
Open

Add Widerspruch-as-a-service #227

stkdiretto opened this issue Jan 22, 2018 · 16 comments
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@stkdiretto
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@stkdiretto stkdiretto commented Jan 22, 2018

How do I Widerspruch I am not good with lawyers. Please add a press-this-button-to-print-my-widerspruch feature.

@GiantCrocodile
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@GiantCrocodile GiantCrocodile commented Jan 22, 2018

This won't be possible because of the fact that every protest needs a good legal reasoning. This is a case by case analysis and reasoning. A simple protest without reasonable aguments won't help you.

The only solution I see here is to add a feature to let specific users of some group writing your protest and the request owner takes care of legal responsibility and costs. So someone else gifts his time and you gift your money at the end.

@stkdiretto
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@stkdiretto stkdiretto commented Jan 23, 2018

Yes, this is pretty much what I need :D

@GiantCrocodile
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@GiantCrocodile GiantCrocodile commented Jan 23, 2018

Any link to a specific German-law case? I'm curious!

@stefanw
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@stefanw stefanw commented Jan 25, 2018

I could see that activating some kind of "help me write this" button and then an Etherpad on the page where everyone can add to the letter. Collaborative writing of legalese. Not sure if this makes for quality, but could definitely result in quantity ;)

@stkdiretto
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@stkdiretto stkdiretto commented Jan 25, 2018

Alternatively, what I would find helpful is any way on “How do I even do this”. Currently, froide nudges you towards calling the LfDI/BfDI to action (#escalate) – a link to https://fragdenstaat.de/hilfe/ifg/klagen/ could be helpful as well. This path of action is not outlined from the case itself.

@GiantCrocodile
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@GiantCrocodile GiantCrocodile commented Jan 26, 2018

I like @stefanw s idea although I would suggest some very user-friendly editor like ckeditor. We should host this collaborative writing ourself so no third party service is involved. Etherpad didn't look too easy for non-techy users at first glance (and they show markdown as input example on website). First usage of online demo was okay.

And we add a basic template with date, which case it is about, name and address of gov agency, placeholder for signature, and so on so that the basic stuff is done and letter fulfills the basics and only legal reasoning has to be added.

@Ryuno-Ki
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@Ryuno-Ki Ryuno-Ki commented Jan 28, 2018

Plus, Etherpad has a horrible UX on mobile.

@arnese arnese added the feature label Feb 2, 2018
@arnese
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@arnese arnese commented Apr 8, 2018

There should be some parts of the appeal pre-written. Fields should include date of Bescheid, reference number and reason given

@GiantCrocodile
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@GiantCrocodile GiantCrocodile commented Apr 8, 2018

Keep in mind that the date of the decision you have received won't be properly determined by FragDenStaat: We know when you uploaded it and we know when they have sent the letter but both doesn't have to be the date you received the letter and thus is an important difference if we talk legal things. This has to be considered in the wording we choose in the Widerspruchs service.

@stkdiretto
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@stkdiretto stkdiretto commented Apr 8, 2018

+1. IMO, this could be a part to specify when uploading the reply from the official body, e.g. specify the date on the letterhead and the date you received it (by getting it out of the mailbox or the date on the PZU). Analogous to official replies such as “Ihr Schreiben vom $x, eingegangen am $y”

@arnese arnese mentioned this issue Apr 25, 2018
@GiantCrocodile
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@GiantCrocodile GiantCrocodile commented Jan 1, 2019

Furthermore we should add a basic logic check:

  • is the date of receipt fine (within the legal deadline to raise a complaint)?
  • is a reason provided?
  • common check for paragraphs (like missing § or mentioning a non existing §)

and an overview of most likely risks or questionable things in your case. For example: A risk could be that your Widerspruch could cause higher costs than the ordinary 30 Euro because [your request is huge/highly complex/very specialized) or likely to loose because it has been decided negatively by court ... (info about a matching court case).

@philipp-r
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@philipp-r philipp-r commented Apr 8, 2020

I created this Widerspruch generator for "Topf Secret": https://philipp-r.github.io/vig-widerspruch/
It has a form to select the most common reasons why my VIG-requests would be refused and the website will generate a draft for a Widerspruch. (I kept it very simple because of my very basic Javascript knowledge 😄 )

Something like this would be cool for the FragDenStaat campaigns where we have many similar requests and often the same reasons for rejections by the authorities.

@stefanw
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@stefanw stefanw commented Apr 16, 2020

Hey @philipp-r, that's great!
We have a 'guidance' system that is supposed to detect phrases in correspondence and gives similar hints and also contains a letter generator integrated into FDS.
However, we've not been very good at targeting this guidance. The phrase detection doesn't work with letters you receive and we are not on top of latest phrasing anyway. A questionnaire like you build is a great idea!

@rugk
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@rugk rugk commented May 20, 2020

In case it has not yet been clear: Also mind to add a warning "Die Ablehnung eines Widerspruchsbescheids führt zu Kosten. In der Regel 30€.", so users are warned and know what they do…

@GiantCrocodile
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@GiantCrocodile GiantCrocodile commented May 20, 2020

I think that's not right in every scenario, see this case @rugk: https://forum.okfn.de/t/kosten-des-widerspruchsverfahrens-tragen-oder-klagen/784/7

@rugk
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@rugk rugk commented Jan 25, 2021

BTW I've created a LaTeX template for appeals at least. That may be helpful for this issue – or not, then just for your own appeals… 😉
https://github.com/rugk/ifg-letter-appeal

(forum post)

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