Create a Code of Conduct #942

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strand opened this Issue Jun 18, 2015 · 436 comments

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@strand
strand commented Jun 18, 2015

The discussion from @meh on #941 say that new contributors will be "welcome and treated with respect."

A code of conduct is a common practice to foster a kind, inclusive, cooperative, and harassment-free community. Adopting a code of conduct would demonstrate that new contributors will be welcomed and respected.

@meh
Member
meh commented Jun 18, 2015

How to behave on the project should be obvious, but I'm not against this.

@strand
strand commented Jun 18, 2015

If I am able to draft a code of conduct this weekend, will you review and give feedback? I'm pretty swamped at the moment… Is anyone else interested in taking this on?

Will you accept a code of conduct which extends to all community venues, online and in-person, as well as in all one-on-one communications?

@meh
Member
meh commented Jun 18, 2015

I will review it, and accept it as long as it extends only to things that are strictly related to the project (issues, gitter, mailing list, stackoverflow, whatever), which means interactions related to it, I'm all for inclusiveness.

It should not extend to what one has to say on their own when not talking about the project and everything related to it.

In this case @elia saying what he thinks on his Twitter is irrelevant to the project, if he starts attacking a contributor or refusing contributions because of his views, then that is not acceptable.

@CoralineAda

Among my other useless contributions to OSS: http://contributor-covenant.org/

Not that it applies here.

@vais
Contributor
vais commented Jun 18, 2015

@meh

How to behave on the project should be obvious...

👍 I do not need a code of conduct imposed on me, thanks.

@lutoma
lutoma commented Jun 18, 2015

@vais Well, maybe you not, but judging by how other people have responded to other issues and pull requests here, I think it's fairly obvious some of the contributors do.

@vais
Contributor
vais commented Jun 18, 2015

@lutoma granted, I am new to this project, but I have no idea what you are talking about. What are you referring to?

@Ajedi32
Ajedi32 commented Jun 18, 2015

@vais He's probably referring to all the drama going on in the other thread. (TL;DR: @elia said something politically incorrect on Twitter, and now everyone's out to ruin him for it.)

I'm just going to sit back and let @meh handle this one.

@vais
Contributor
vais commented Jun 18, 2015

@Ajedi32 what a sad world. I'm going to bed. @meh you can't win against an angry mob, only make them more angry. There's nothing to say.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@meh I think perhaps that what people say on a medium where they explicitly bio themselves as a contributor will reflect on the project whether you intend it to or not.

Perhaps if opal is intended to truly be a politics-free zone it should have a principle of "don't identify as an opal committer on a medium in which you're expressing political opinions" - and once that separation is truly present, "judge people only on their conduct within the project" becomes much more clearly sensible.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

Oh, @strand, @meh you might want to look at http://www.irc.perl.org/rules.html wherein the "Community Policies" section is intentionally an unpacking of "behave like a reasonable person"; a number of us went several rounds of editing to get it to the point where it wasn't perceived as intended to be a political weapon.

@vais please see http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/on-codifying-conduct/ for an explanation of why in practice it's worth having such an unpacking, and that once you detach the idea from the howling crazies who're often the proponents of the worst written such documents it's actually a really useful one.

@abritinthebay

The core trick with a Code of Conduct is enforcement. You have to have a process where if someone is found in violation they can be dealt with transparently and publicly.

This can be just as simple as a warning process that progresses to a ban from the project... or it can be more nuanced. But a CoC is nothing without enforcement.

That might seem obvious but I see a lot of places forget that.

@Ajedi32
Ajedi32 commented Jun 18, 2015

@shadowcat-mst Awesome, it sounds like we actually might be able to have a productive discussion in this issue. Thanks for that. 👍 Hopefully all the crazy drama and political browbeating will remain confined to that other thread so we can work on solving actual problems here.

@abritinthebay

It's actually calmed down in that other thread (mostly due to the trolls either being banned or losing interest) but a CoC is a great idea and I hope this will be super productive 👍

@AstonJ
AstonJ commented Jun 18, 2015

Here's my code of conduct: just be a decent human being.

That extends to recognising that people are the result of everything that has been part of, or influenced their lives up to that point. That means some societies are lagging, and it falls on those of us ahead to help get them up to speed.

Witch hunts belong in the dark ages, they do nothing to help with (true) progress.

@Ajedi32
Ajedi32 commented Jun 18, 2015

Okay, now on to productive discussion.

I'm not sure I agree that "don't identify as an Opal committer on a medium in which you're expressing political opinions" would be a good policy. The fact that someone is an Opal contributor is pretty much public information whether you advertise it or not, and people should absolutely be allowed to express their political beliefs (even unpopular ones), regardless of what open source projects they contribute to.

Ideally, people should be able to draw a distinction between the beliefs and opinions of an individual, and the goals of a project they contribute to. Opal is pretty clearly about writing a cross compiler for converting Ruby code into JavaScript. There's not a lot of room for injection of political beliefs there.

Furthermore, I think with OSS the beliefs of individual contributors should reflect even less on the project than they otherwise would in a commercial product. Anyone can become a contributor to a OSS project. All they have to do is write good code. "Official" maintainers are simply those who are technically competent enough to be trusted to make commits directly to the repo without having to go through someone else first, and even the very definition of an "official" repository is pretty arbitrary, since anyone can fork the project and create a new "official" repository if they don't like the direction the project is going.

Maybe that's being too idealistic though.

@abritinthebay

Here's my code of conduct: just be a decent human being.

Well that's all a code of conduct really is. The thing is you then have to define what you as a project/org/whatever consider to be the definition of "decent human being".

I think you'd be surprised at how many people disagree over the details of that. Well.. obviously you would because you don't see the need for a longer one than that ;)

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@Ajedi32 I proposed that (independently of the document-to-copy suggestion) simply because, in practice, it seems to me that this would be a good way to help the project remain actually apolitical, rather than 'apolitical except when somebody sees a tweet they find objectionable and reads the twitter bio for places to report it' - whether you think it's a morally good thing is I guess independent of whether it's useful to the project anyway.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@AstonJ I tried to cover why that turns out, sadly, to not be quite enough in practice in http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/on-codifying-conduct/ - maybe give it a read and see if things make more sense.

@abritinthebay

I'm not sure I agree that "don't identify as an Opal committer on a medium in which you're expressing political opinions" would be a good policy. The fact that someone is an Opal contributor is pretty much public information whether you advertise it or not, and people should absolutely be allowed to express their political beliefs (even unpopular ones), regardless of what open source projects they contribute to.

Agreed with this. This is why people put disclaimers up like "the views in here are my own and don't represent... yadayadayada"

Now I think that's a bit much for some random contributor with one small PR but for someone that's a maintainer of a project or a major known contributor to one... reasonable.

That said - it's coming at it from the wrong direction. Having a community Code of Conduct says what the community finds acceptable and not-acceptable. Then if someone ends up poorly representing the community they can be called on it.

It someone's Twitter account is full of hate but no-one knows they are a contributor - and they aren't advertising that fact - then it's not really an issue (for the community that is).

@abritinthebay

@shadowcat-mst that's a great link.

@meltheadorable

I think there's an important distinction not being made here between a core contributor that is a member of the organization and controls the repository and any given random person who might submit a pull request or an issue to the project.

An organization absolutely requires a code of conduct, and that code of conduct very likely should extend to a certain extent to the activities somebody engages in outside the walls of any particular github issue or pull request.

Your core contributors represent your project, and when you refuse to hold them accountable for the things that they say, in public, in the same space they are discussing the project, then you can't really rely on them as a community leader.

Open source software is and always has been far more about community than code. When you start an open source project, you are starting a community. When one of the members of your organization, one of the people you are building your community around, is advertising your project in one post and then spewing hate in the next one, and you say that doesn't matter, what you're actually saying is that you care more about the technical contributions of that contributor than you do about everyone he alienates in the process. By backing him you are saying to everyone that he has insulted and dehumanized "his code is more important than you".

You may not need a code of conduct for every person that submits a pull request to your project, though I think real and enforced standards for how people should behave in issues is important and a good idea, but it's absolutely necessary that you hold the people you have selected as community leaders and project overseers to some kind of a standard.

@jaredcwhite
Contributor

On the Opalist website (which is a separate project from Opal, just to be clear), I included this language on my "Submit a Link" page:

  • We have a strict anti-harrasment/all-inclusive policy and will judge entries based solely on their merit and not by race, religion, creed, gender, or any other personal attributes.

I think something along those lines as part of a short blurb about contributing to the Opal project seems reasonable. However, I'm very leery of anything that would suggest that maintainers or contributors to the project need to police themselves on what they should or shouldn't say or do online in places that are separate from the Opal project. That sounds like precrime/thoughtcrime mentality and not freedom. And isn't OSS about freedom after all?

@mikeal
mikeal commented Jun 18, 2015

I will review it, and accept it as long as it extends only to things that are strictly related to the project (issues, gitter, mailing list, stackoverflow, whatever), which means interactions related to it, I'm all for inclusiveness.

This spurred a lot of discussion in this thread about when and where this might apply and what is a personal vs. professional medium. I'd like to point back to something in the original Issue description that triggered this Issue.

His Twitter profile mentions that he is a core contributor to opal.

This is important. It means that someone is mixing their public comments related to both their personal views and their work. Effectively, you could say that one is being used to bootstrap an audience for the other. This means that you can't separate these issues by the medium in which they are placed because people are actively mixing their personal and professional speech and benefiting from it in one context while avoiding accountability in the other context.

If someone keeps their personal views private you'd be hard pressed to find people who are going to dig them up and ask that they be expelled from public projects they are involved in. That's not the issue we're talking about and pretending that it is pollutes the real conversation we need to behaving which is that contributors live very publicly and the entirety of their public presence is how they are viewed by all participants. If projects wish to be inclusive they need to consider the entirety of that persons public interactions, ignoring it just means that you'll write a policy that doesn't effectively promote inclusiveness.

@medcat
medcat commented Jun 18, 2015

After having a discussion about something similar, I must say that my opinion on it was this:

  • A core contributor may express any of their opinions outside of the project.
    • However, the opinions may not have a link back to the project; i.e., "Opal contributor" on profile. The idea being that people may take that as either an endorsement by Opal, or otherwise associate the opinions with Opal. This sort of thing can only lead to Bad Things.
    • Inside of the project, e.g. in a PR or issue, a respectful tone is a must. Obviously contributors are going to have a difference of opinion on many things, but since the end goal is to produce a brilliant product, then most of the time, these conversations are avoidable (e.g. getting in a fight over whether pink looks better on black or on white, when it has very little to do with the project or issue at hand).
  • Discussion inside of an issue must remain civil.
    • Normally, name-calling and other logical fallacies tend to be pointless and non-contributing, so don't.
    • Excellent reasoning and discussion should be supported, while easy one-off replies or degrading insults should be shunned.
    • The issue should also be related to the overall project; opening an issue about pink looking better on black or white on Opal isn't the time or place.
  • Potential contributors or potential maintainers must not be chased off by negative opinions or ideas.
    • Contributors are a big part of any open source project, and shoving them off because of something relatively unimportant to the project as a whole is a Bad Thing.
    • Contributions should be welcome.

Of course, this is just my opinion on the matter, and you may feel free to copy it or ignore it.

@utterbull

I vehemently oppose any code of conduct that censors or punishes any behavior unrelated to and/or outside the scope of Opal. People have a right to hold and express their own opinions, even if they are unpopular or hurtful.

@meltheadorable

@jaredcwhite This isn't about "thought crime" but about the conduct of an individual in charge of a community. This would be a non-issue, or at least a much smaller one, if he wasn't in a position of authority here, but he is and that's very important context.

If you are responsible for running a community and a project, and you are also conducting yourself publicly as an asshole, that's relevant. You can't just publicly attack an entire group of people and expect that you should still be allowed to run a community that cares about them and their contributions.

He can say whatever he wants on his twitter, but he shouldn't expect that the community won't hold him accountable for his speech and that his reputation and standing won't suffer, especially if what he says is harmful and discriminatory.

@adambeynon
Contributor

@utterbull the problem is when those opinions might affect previous,current or future contributors and users of the project. No contributors code is more important than the community at large.

@shadowcat-mst , @CoralineAda thanks for the links.

@utterbull

@adambeynon
The problem is that anyone's opinions may affect anyone at anytime in ways that no person can possibly predict.

I agree that the community is more important than any one individual, but I still maintain my earlier position. A code of conduct that punishes or censors contributors is a violation of the rights of every single individual in the community, and therefor the community as a whole as well.

@JX7P
JX7P commented Jun 18, 2015

@utterbull and so too do potential contributors have the right to not be personally abused. Transphobia is being diminished across this issue. Let it be clear in no uncertain terms that a little 'controversy' here about whether it's fine to label trans people as 'delusional' is irrelevant. It is controversial amongst some parts of the world as to whether it is alright to call people racial slurs. This is not relevant.

There is an objective problem inherent to both transphobia and racism in this context: they promote an environment of hostility towards contributors that may be trans or people of colour. They attach themselves to the project, colouring its each and every byte: code-reductionism doesn't work here, sorry, that's not how the world works.

@meltheadorable

@utterbull The conduct of a community manager for a project on a public platform where they engage with the community about, promote and otherwise publicly discuss that project is not outside the scope of that project.

This isn't about any random person who submits a pull request, but the people who have been put in charge of the project and its community.

@andrewmcwatters

I vehemently oppose any code of conduct that censors or punishes any behavior unrelated to and/or outside the scope of Opal. People have a right to hold and express their own opinions, even if they are unpopular or hurtful.

👍

@adambeynon
Contributor

@utterbull I completely disagree. Project owners, maintainers and core contributors represent the ethics of a project. They are given those titles for good reason - to represent the project.

@andrewmcwatters

@adambeynon Would you not allow a Muslim to be a contributor because their ethics didn't align with that of Opal's?

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@meltheadorable I absolutely agree with the direct association thing - this is why I think that as I mentioned and @medcat expanded on, if you're going to claim comments are personal opinion only then you need to not do it somewhere that directly links to the project you hold authority in.

This is why I think a code of conduct plus an explicit expectation that people will not associate with the project words they don't want to be judged by the project's conduct standards is the most viable way forwards.

I'm sure there'll still be people who feel it goes too far, and people who feel it doesn't go far enough, but it seems like the thing we're most likely to mostly create a consensus around that's a step forwards.

(For context, /u/matthewt reporting in once again;)

@meltheadorable

People have a right to hold and express their own opinions, even if they are unpopular or hurtful.

They do, but they don't have a right to indefinitely hold on to their leadership positions and social standing in a community that finds those opinions objectionable, harmful, and overall detrimental to its long term health.

People's speech has consequences, if you want to publicly express opinions and beliefs that are discriminatory and bigoted then you should understand that the consequences of doing so might include some communities losing respect for you and no longer wanting you to hold a leadership position.

@thereals0beit

I am a pastafarian and I find you all to be out of your noodle

I am also offended, and find you all to be bigots therefore please ban everyone in this thread thanks

@abritinthebay

oh great - the know-nothing trolls have already arrived.

@thereals0beit

I don't see why you aren't taking my heartfelt beliefs seriously

@jacqueline-homan

I got a message on Google plus from one of my fellow dev buddies from the F# community linking this discussion. I am at a total loss for words. Your damn skippy stuff like this matters. Let me ask you what you all think the kind of effect some engineers and a tech recruiter with deep biases against poor trafficked women had on a project for an anti-trafficking organization, an app to supposedly help victims of human trafficking.

You guessed it: the app ended up NOT being useable for the very people it was intended to help—victims and survivors of human trafficking.

The app was to have a feature that would enable a trafficking victim trying to escape their trafficker to "spead dial" via text to the anti-trafficking emergency hotline. The number of digits was too long. Five digits is too many to remember when:

(1) People remember strings of letters and numbers via a process known as "chunking", and three digit numbers are far easier to remember and quicker to text.

(2) A trafficking victim trying to flee a brutal pimp with nothing but the clothes on her back is in a highly traumatized state, which means there is even less psychological capital available to devote to the chunking process.

In sum, that app is pretty much useless.

Now, had the developer who is also a human trafficking survivor that applied for the junior level developer role NOT been denied the job by a bigot solely due to her status of being a poor, marginalized woman who is human trafficking survivor trying to break into dev, her insight and life experience would have prevented that oversight.

So yes, this sort of thing DOES matter.

@thatdudeoverthere

I think the problem here is that it's not up to the community to decide who should and shouldn't run a project, especially if the people who run the project have been there longer. Our job should be to report any information to the other people running the project, so that they may deal with the problem as they see fit. Our morality only plays into this with finding what may hurt the project in the eyes of the public and reporting it to the official channels. Our ideas of justice and retribution will only hinder and bring the project to a screeching halt if we believe ourselves to be the true "runners" of a project.

@JX7P
JX7P commented Jun 18, 2015

It's unfortunate that something that should be as uncontroversial as this (not attacking people for aspects of themselves that they are not to blame for) is causing such a storm. This issue thread has become a hotbed of trolls who seem unwilling to show empathy.

@andrewmcwatters there is nothing wrong with consistently denying transphobes maintainership in a project, no matter their religious beliefs.

@andrewmcwatters

@IRIXUser This is conscious discrimination against religious individuals, though. "Today in most of the Islamic world homosexuality is not socially or legally accepted." -LGBT in Islam on Wikipedia

And that's just one example. You can't please everyone.

@thereals0beit

@IRIXUser but why are you only including the LGBT community in the protected classes when it comes to maintaining this project? I agree that they should be protected, and that anything that any member of the LGBT community finds objectionable, should find anyone who says that thing banned, however...

Why isn't bigotry against Christians, Muslims and other righteous pastafarians also being protected against?

@utterbull

@IRIXUser
I can only speak for myself, but...
I am not a troll, nor am I bigot. For the record (although I argue that it doesn't matter) I have no issue with Transpersons at all. However, I realize that there are many people who think differently then I do, and that I do not have a magical device to tell me which of us is correct in our beliefs. So I respect others right to have their own opinions, even if they are contrary to my own.

@adambeynon
I agree, they do have important roles within the project.

Allow me to put my whole argument against a censorship/punishment CoC like this.

As OSS, Opal wants as many users and contributors as possible.

A policy which states that Transpersons may not contribute would reduce the number of contributors and users, and therefor would be a bad idea.

A policy which states that those who do not support Transpersons may not contribute is just as bad for the exact same reason.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

Fuck. Ok, look, everybody here. If a comment contains no actionable suggestions for refinements of the proposal we're trying to generate, just ignore it.

We created this thread to have somewhere to discuss constructive steps forwards. Please let's try and focus on that.

@thatdudeoverthere

@shadowcat-mst
The discussions here have a hand in developing a code of conduct though. Some users might jump ship once they realize a code of conduct has been placed on the project. Not because they're intolerant, but as a matter of principle if they believe it to be a form of censorship. Right now we need to discuss on both sides of the table, because neglecting either one could ultimately hurt the project in the near future.

The CoC needs to be specific enough for anti-censorship supporters to know that they're protected from it being abused and going after anybody the runners of the project don't agree with. The anti-offensive supporters need it to at least target areas that serve to promote a hostile environment to them (homophobia, racism, etc). So it's a fine line to walk, and needs lots of back and forth.

@andrewmcwatters

A code of conduct should not censor its contributors in order to promote the views of an open source organization or project. All individuals involved should be entitled to their personal opinions and beliefs outside of an open source organization or project.

Open source software does not exist to transform or contort the views of individuals. If we want to promote an open, friendly arena for all to contribute in, concerns regarding code should be kept to that. Code. Tolerance of individuals and their respective views, lifestyles, and ideals should be upheld, but the collaborative nature of software development does not, nor should not, entail involvement of those views, lifestyles, and ideals, it should entail software, and the development thereof.

Keep these things separate, but encourage a neutral, welcoming atmosphere where all are encouraged to take part in collaboration.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@thatdudeoverthere please read the language of my proposed template and then comment in specific on that, then.

I had several very anti-censorship people help mW tweak the language on that specifically to try and widen its acceptability.

@abritinthebay

Some users might jump ship once they realize a code of conduct has been placed on the project. Not because they're intolerant, but as a matter of principle if they believe it to be a form of censorship.

I would suggest that those users were probably not good contributors in any case - not least because they haven't the foggiest clue what censorship is. Contributors don't have a right to be an asshole in spaces other than their own. Many large, high profile, and very well contributed to OSS projects have CoC and quite uncontroversially.

@abritinthebay

@shadowcat-mst - that template is pretty good. Good work.

@andrewmcwatters

@abritinthebay Can you provide some example CoCs that cover some of the issues previously discussed? I'm actually rather curious about what other organizations and projects have to say about their contributors' private and personal opinions outside of the scope of a given project.

@thatdudeoverthere

@abritinthebay
I'm not saying a CoC is bad and shouldn't be applied to the project. I'm just saying that there's more than just one group of people contributing to this. You saying that those users aren't good contributors because of their lack of understanding censorship is the same as them saying you're a bad contributor because of your own misunderstanding of it. They're afraid that a broad CoC would be easily abused by those in power, making them able to take out anything that goes against their own morals and beliefs. This should also be a concern to supporters of equality! Somebody in power could look down on a group of people and abuse the CoC to strike down their contributions to the project. We shouldn't exclude them, because they're a group of people just like everyone else.

@shadowcat-mst
That baseline is as good as any to start from. What we have to work on is what the definition of asshole is, and how the organizers of the community will deal with them. The community and its organizers needs to work on the definition of asshole together, while how to deal with the asshole themselves is entirely up to the people in charge.

@orionblastar

It seems the CoC the Social Justice Warriors want is left-wing based and anyone with a non-liberal opinion or point of view would be found in violation of that CoC. Is it possible to have a CoC that is neutral based and not biased on one way or another? Liberalism has crept into the tech industry and kicking people out who don't subscribe to the same opinions or points of view. I can cite Brandon Eich as an example who donated to the wrong charity and had to resign from his own organization after a liberal backlash against him and his religious beliefs that clashed with the liberal social agenda.

Keep in mind in the USA that GLBTT people are not protected on the federal level and some states protect and others do not. In some states it is legal to discriminate against GLBTT people. I think that a CoC should include protection of GLBTT people because we want to include them in FOSS projects and the Github community.

@utterbull

@abritinthebay
"Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are "offensive," happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups." -The ACLU

A CoC that limits contributors right to express their opinion would be censorship (at least according to the definition provided by the ACLU, as well as my own personal opinion).

@andrewmcwatters

It seems the CoC the Social Justice Warriors want is left-wing based and anyone with a non-liberal opinion or point of view would be found in violation of that CoC. Is it possible to have a CoC that is neutral based and not biased on one way or another? Liberalism has crept into the tech industry and kicking people out who don't subscribe to the same opinions or points of view. I can cite Brandon Eich as an example who donated to the wrong charity and had to resign from his own organization after a liberal backlash against him and his religious beliefs that clashed with the liberal social agenda.

👏

@thatdudeoverthere

@orionblastar
For anybody who doesn't know, Brandon Eich was the CEO of Mozilla Firefox. He made private personal donations some years ago that were made public, and "stepped down" as a result of the public outcry.

@orionblastar

@thatdudeoverthere He resigned from all of the pressure he was under. He was not fired.
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignation/

@aplusjm8

I'm sorry, but where does the line end?
You people wanted to remove a hardworking guy from a project for an opinion. So what if his opinion doesn't match yours? He has rights to express those opinions, just like you have the right to express yours.
Here's an opinion for you: I think the Falklands belong to the British. Does this opinion mean I am entitled to a free social lynching from any Argentinians that think otherwise?
Another project falls pray to the "stop thinking the way I don't think" asshats, I guess.

A project where anyone can thrive and build code without social or opinion-based parameters is one that will work best, not one dictated by rules.

@thatdudeoverthere

@orionblastar
Whoops, edited my response.

@AstonJ
AstonJ commented Jun 18, 2015

@orionblastar That is completely different to what happened earlier.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@orionblastar please have a look at my proposed text - I had libertarian and nrx input into it to make sure it was a suitable anti-asshole document with a minimum of political content

@orionblastar

@AstonJ it is basically the same thing, someone holds a non-liberal opinion and there is a big reaction to boycott the product and get the person who made it removed. Is this the way things go now where anyone who isn't a liberal and doesn't hold liberal opinions?

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@aplusjm8 we're attempting to discuss a constructive way forwards here and none of the proposals involve a precipitous removal, so please attempt to contribute to said proposals rather than feeding the trolling from your ideological opponents

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@utterbull if you feel my proposal promotes censorship, please explain why in specific

@orionblastar

@shadowcat-mst It is a good start, but it depends on the definition of what an asshole is and is not. I think the code of conduct should include that being an asshole is starting a Twitter war over it instead of going with a moderator first and reporting the behavior.

There was an event at PyCon not too long ago:
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/donglegate-adria-richards

Adria Richards, instead of reporting these two men for Fork and Dongle jokes to members of the Pycon staff, did a Twitter war instead. It lead to all three being fired eventually.

Is making Fork and Dongle jokes the definition of being an asshole, or it is accepted behavior? Is it sexist to do that? I think we need to give some examples, and then give some steps to be taken to report it.

@utterbull

@shadowcat-mst
If you mean...
http://www.yapcna.org/yn2013/code-of-conduct.html
...then I have no problem with it all, because it has a limited scope, a 3 day conference. I don't see anything there that limits a persons ability to express their opinion anywhere but the conference.

Applying the same CoC to Opal removes the limited scope, and therefor in my opinion is unacceptable. If a similar limited scope were to be applied to the Opal CoC (as others have all ready suggested, 'While speaking on behalf of Opal...' or 'Do not present your own opinions as those of Opal...' would be fine) then I would find it acceptable.

In regards to your comments @aplusjm8 , although I don't want to put words in their mouth, I believe they are suggesting the constructive way forward is NOT to implement a censorship policy ( @aplusjm8 please correct me if I am wrong).

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@orionblastar We're trying to find a solution that includes "saying things we don't like on your personal twitter" being ok - I don't like the tweets that started this situation, and I also don't like twitter wars, but it seems to me that if we want peace rather than eternal war we must accept both.

@krainboltgreene

Good to know the "polite" way is arguing over what constitutes an asshole and a bunch of gamergators dropping sexist links.

Good shepherds for this project, for sure.

@t0x0
t0x0 commented Jun 19, 2015

@shadowcat-mst Is someone expected to conform to a CoC on any venue where they're identified as connected with the project? That seems reasonable-ish. However, what if the connection is on a third site (IE - personal website identifies connection, CoC violation is on Twitter, Twitter bio links to personal site)? Finally, what if the connection is posted by a second/third party (not the contributor)? It's really easy to push into legit censorship, which is why these efforts get so much pushback.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@utterbull

Oh, @strand, @meh you might want to look at http://www.irc.perl.org/rules.html wherein the "Community Policies" section is intentionally an unpacking of "behave like a reasonable person"; a number of us went several rounds of editing to get it to the point where it wasn't perceived as intended to be a political weapon.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@utterbull also I explicitly said I didn't believe personal opinions expressed externally somewhere that didn't associate itself with the project should be out of scope.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@t0x0 I would be fine with an explicit rule of "if it's at more than one remove, clearly you went looking for it so live with what you found"

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

Gah. Should be in scope. Sorry, mobile.

@strand
strand commented Jun 19, 2015

Is anyone else interested in taking this on?

@utterbull

@shadowcat-mst
I have several minor disagreements with various bits, but the core of the Community Policies, the Reasonable Person Principle, seems acceptable to me.

The problem then becomes wither expressing ones opinion on ones own twitter account which mentions involvement in Opal is 'reasonable' or not.

@strand
Isn't that what we are all doing, right now?

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@strand if I could get any sort of specific criticism of the text I've proposed I'd be happy to. As is, I think maybe a fresh issue proposing it as is might be a start, and I'd be happy to try and contribute to that

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@utterbull so propose language to specifically document that a personal account that doesn't mention the project is out of the code's scope. A concrete proposal is what we need to move forwards.

@meltheadorable

@shadowcat-mst I, for one, am not interested in a code of conduct which would allow the core project maintainers to spam discriminatory, harassing and bigoted content on their twitter accounts without having their standing as a community organizer and core maintainer being put at risk.

There is no possible way to have an apolitical code of conduct. Even choosing to put discrimination or harassment on a list of things that aren't okay is a decision with political content. The question is what kind of community does the project want to foster.

I sincerely hope that the answer to that question isn't "one in which it's acceptable for the core contributors to, on a public platform, post discriminatory material that alienates contributions from members on the basis of their gender, race, sexual orientation, etc."

@t0x0
t0x0 commented Jun 19, 2015

@shadowcat-mst I think the once removed rule is fair to all parties, and still protects other contributors and the project's reputation.

@utterbull

@shadowcat-mst
It's easier (both for the writer and the reader) to list the situations in which a potential CoC does apply rather than those where it does not. For example.

CoC applies while doing work on Opal or representing (speaking on behalf of) Opal.

@orionblastar

@shadowcat-mst It seems there are social justice warriors here who want to promote the liberal point of view and punish people for not making Politically Correct statements on social networks. The whole thing happened over a bad tweet that was unpopular with the SJWs that lead to the issue that he be removed. They will interpret anything as Non-PC to get rid of almost any contributor here. I fear that the CoC will develop into a political weapon to punish those who don't hold liberal views and opinions.

I agree change the don't be an asshole to be a reasonable person. It reads better.

@t0x0
t0x0 commented Jun 19, 2015

Proposal for "preppendix" to Community Policies:

These policies apply to any activity directly related to the project, and to any personal activity where you are identified as associated with the project, for instance tweets or forums posts from an account where you are identified as a project owner. It does not apply to personal activity that is divorced from the project, even if you are identified as connected to the project via other venues.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@meltheadorable the perfect is the enemy of the good; since we'll clearly never all agree on perfect I'd much rather agree on good and make the world at least that much a better place.

I want tomorrow to be better than yesterday, and I won't reject a better possible tomorrow that isn't as good as I might hope the long term future will be. That's what this thread was created for. If you aren't interested in anything but complete victory, that's your choice, but I'm going to keep trying to make things better, one step at a time.

@orionblastar

@shadowcat-mst Nobody is perfect, we are all flawed in some way, and perfect people are just people who learned how to hide their flaws. In order to be good, we need to develop a code of ethics that everyone can agree upon.

@utterbull

@t0x0
I disagree with the "where you are identified as associated with the project" portion. The CoC should be strictly limited in scope to activity for or on behalf of Opal.

@meltheadorable

@shadowcat-mst A code of conduct that doesn't even apply to the situation that started the call for one isn't even "good", let alone perfect.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

I've specifically said, repeatedly, that his twitter feed's public association with the project means it would apply until that's changed. I'm unsure why you insist on ignoring it at the same time as the "oh noes free speech" people insist on ignoring my saying that once that is changed it shouldn't be considered related @meltheadorable @utterbull

I continue to want tomorrow to be better than yesterday. Insisting on a perfect victory for your "side" achieves nothing except rage.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@strand @t0x0 that phrasing seems reasonable to me and given we're re-adapting an IRC network policy to a github project policy I would be entirely in support of such a prepension.

@t0x0
t0x0 commented Jun 19, 2015

Just had a thought, where would a "tweets are my own" type disclaimer fit into the policy? Does it have an impact?

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@orionblastar which is why I regard any principled solution to allow everybody's stupid tweets to be ignored, just just one side's

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@t0x0 I'm looking at how people will read things, rather than how we'd like people to read things; that means 'lack of link' will work but 'disclaimer' won't, even though I wish we lived in the world where the latter was sufficient

@t0x0
t0x0 commented Jun 19, 2015

@utterbull that's the real question - when you are posting and your identifier is "core contributor to xyz" it seems fair to assume that your statements are associated with or shared by xyz.

@shadowcat-mst Hmm. OK, there's room for debate but I'm not sure there's a clear right answer. Personally I disagree, but I see your point. Probably a decision that needs to be made by the org adopting the CoC.

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@t0x0 I agree in theory, but disagree in practice; I'm trying to find real world solutions that actually work. But yes, the org's choice how to work it, I'm just presenting suggestions that have worked as "tomorrow is better than yesterday" for me and my communities in the past.

@t0x0
t0x0 commented Jun 19, 2015

@shadowcat-mst Fair enough. Do you need any more specific input, or do you have enough to polish the CoC template you're building from? The prepended text I suggested solves most of my concerns...which are fairly irrelevant anyway since I'm not a contributor to the project. shrug

@hausdorff

It's worth pointing out that there has been a big push to incorporate codes of conduct into programmer spaces (especially conferences), and for the most part, the process is the same. First people complain about their "freedom" being restricted. Then a code of conduct is adopted. Then the complaints quietly dissolve and all the supposed dangers turn out to be basically imaginary.

Instead of talking about how damaging "liberalism" is, I want to propose that we frame the discussion for what it really is: you are defining what it means to be a member of the Opal community. It's not about liberalism, it's about what sort of people you want to build software with. These are the people you will talk to, who you will go to conferences with, who will onboard new members of this community. It is your prerogative to eject members who do not fit the mold that YOU decide is the right archetype for your community.

The people who are in favor of a code of conduct are making the point that it is acceptable and probably a good idea to explicitly factor in what people do in their "off time" when you choose who to accept as members of your community. The position of the maintainers so far appears to be that as long as the code is good, people who believe abhorrent things about other groups of people, or do abhorrent things to other people, are acceptable parts of the community.

To be frank, I don't know where this standard comes from; it is not a part of any precedent that I am aware of. We're running a open source project, not a fucking pirate ship, and if people don't see that, then that is pretty unfortunate for this community.

@strand
strand commented Jun 19, 2015

@shadowcat-mst I haven't had time to read all the comments and didn't see a pull request in the thread. Do you have a commit with a first draft code of conduct? Would you reference your PR in the thread?

I'm too emotionally overwhelmed to respond to any concerns for at least the next few days. Did y'all hear there was a terrorist attack on a church in Charleston that killed nine?

@shadowcat-mst
Contributor

@hausdorff if you have a specific suggestion as to the code I've proposed, please make it; otherwise, please try not to add to the unconstructive parts of the argument

@utterbull

@t0x0
I don't see anything on EliaSchito(͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)'s twitter profile to indicate that everything he says is reflective of Opal (nor reflective of his wife, his kids, Catholics, unborn rights activists, Milanese, Italians, etc.).

@krainboltgreene

really splitting the hair here: hypothetically, if one of the Opal contributors committed a hate crime and Opal - the project - backed up supporting the hate crime, I could have some second thoughts on it

Just to be clear here, a hypothetical person commits a hate crime, a the
project community leaders support that, and you could have some second
thoughts
?!

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 6:08 PM, Kurtis Rainbolt-Greene <
me@kurtisrainboltgreene.name> wrote:

And code is not about debate

Have you even seen a software related user forum?

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 6:05 PM, bbnnt notifications@github.com wrote:

Just came in and felt very bad about seeing those things happening on
github.

In the end it will just thrash a project that is (I think) too young to
stand the controversy that will make it famous (a probability)

Felt bad because, as many might have said; this thing is everything but
code and getting things done ine that scope. And code is not about debate;
it is about making things work. And i dont want to see debate in code

F3c3ing polemics


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#942 (comment).

Kurtis Rainbolt-Greene, Hacker
Software Developer
1631 8th St.
New Orleans, LA
70115

Kurtis Rainbolt-Greene, Hacker
Software Developer
1631 8th St.
New Orleans, LA
70115

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 20, 2015

Deleting my previous comment - I misread the previous post.

My apologies to anyone that had read it.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

@krainboltgreene

just to be clear, mr. Gestapo guy THERE WAS NO HATE CRIME
and yes, I could have some second thoughts, I think it would be very hard to remove for example Javascript from my job, even if I wanted to.
I don't control everything, unfortunately.
I worked for financial institutions, does that mean I agree 100% on everything they do?
You should learn to be professional, IMHO.

EDIT: what's your job exactly? because I don't think you understand software development industry very well. Would you really go to your clients ant tell them to rewrite a 2 million LOC applications from Java to some other language because someone contributing to a Java library committed a hate crime? Seriously?

and just to be clear, THERE WAS NO HATE CRIME INVOLVING OPAL

p.s.: could you fix the formatting of your post? you quoted me, so could you just quote all the three lines, instead of only the first one? it would be really nice of you.
I don't think you did it deliberately to change what I wanted to say, but better safe than sorry…

@bbnnt
bbnnt commented Jun 20, 2015

Ahah lotusrb have just signed the "coraline law".

Tomorrow is gonna be too late guys (; !

@jacqueline-homan

Someone upthread stated that "this is an issue tracker for code, not a forum." I agree. But when a mob acting with a very deliberate hive mentality accuses the Opal community in its entirely of being guilty of a hate crime, and singles out one of its main contributors and targets them and says that they are guilty of a hate crime, then it is no longer just an issue tracker for code. Was what @elia Tweeted ignorant? Probably. But was it really a hate crime by the definition of the term "hate crime?"

@jacqueline-homan , what you proposes is not my fight. My fight is exactly what I'm doing: trying to prevent that external political agendas disrupt technical groups.

I had my share in the past, and I'm facing it again on the professional life - being this the reason I resolved to participate in this problem on Opal.

I really want to see this problem solved here, and then use the knowledge gained by reusing the solution where appropriate (and possible).

Understood, @Lisias. It was my understanding that this blowout began with people demanding that a major contributor to Opal, @elia—who has demonstrated that he DOES care about the Opal community by virtue of his contributions to the project—be kicked off over some dumb crap he posted on Twitter. I don't like seeing anyone, regardless of who they are, being bullied or run off a project they invested so much of their time and effort into—which is the reason I agreed to participate in resolving this issue on Opal. A little bit of Golden Rule could go a long way, I think.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

Ahah lotusrb have just signed the "coraline law".

this is the beauty of freedom.
they can if they want.

@krainboltgreene

@yesitsazerodayaccount: just to be clear, mr. Gestapo guy THERE WAS NO HATE CRIME

Yeah, I get it, that's why it's called a hypothetical.

Gestapo, censorship, free speech, debate, law...Christ, you know what I wanted? I wanted the Opal community leaders to come out and say:

Yes, @elia is a bigot, that's pretty clear. We don't want bigots in our community, we do want transgender, homosexuals, and neuroatypical people to be able to contribute to our project without fear or discomfort.

That's what I wanted. That's all I needed. In some ways I got a semblance of that with a code of conduct.

I also got a bunch of hate tweets, disgusting comments, and more thrown in mine and my friends direction. All because you people (of which like maybe one might even care about Opal in the first place) seem to equate me wanting the above to some ridiculous idea of censorship.

Luckily people watching this thread are starting to realize how absolutely worthless your collective noise is and how harmful it is to our lives. Thank freaking god.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

@jacqueline-homan : > A little bit of Golden Rule could go a long way, I think.

Exactly. You will not see me nosing into others people's work because I don't like something they said no matter what, no matter where. I expect they do the same for me.

I choose to project my convictions into this community, as it appears that most (but not all) of the contributors appears to think like me.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

you know what I wanted?

I don't think Opal is about what you want the core contributors to say.
They say or don't say what they want.

Yes, @elia is a bigot, that's pretty clear

I don't think it is clear at all
I think he reacted gently
It's clear for you maybe, that doesn't make it universally true
But even if he was, what's Opal responsibility?
Are Opal contributors baby sitters?

we do want transgender, homosexuals, and neuroatypical people to be able to contribute to our project without fear or discomfort.

They said that a lot.
They just said it in a form you don't understand: everyone is welcome, because we don't need to know who you are to accept your contributions.

and neuroatypical people to be able to contribute to our project without fear or discomfort.

do you understand that normal people like me are commenting anonymously because they fear a shitstorm on their personal projects and/or the places where they work?
How could this be "without fear or discomfort"?
It is only fear and discomfort.

I also got a bunch of hate tweets, disgusting comments, and more thrown in mine and my friends
direction. All because you people (of which like maybe one might even care about Opal in the first
place) seem to equate me wanting the above to some ridiculous idea of censorship.

I'm sorry, but this has nothing to do with Opal.
You see now?
it is not nice to be considered guilty until proven innocent, that is exactly what happened to @elia and Opal, when @CoralineAda opened an issue asking to kick him off accusing Opal to be transophobic, without even trying to work with the Opal guys first.
Maybe if @CoralineAda tried to contribute would have discovered that @elia is a nice guy to work with, and that they would never drink a beer together, because they are on opposite sides on matters that have nothing to do with Opal.

how absolutely worthless your collective noise is and how harmful it is to our lives. Thank freaking god.

I don't know who these "you" are and I'm sure I have no power on your life.
If you feel like your life is miserable, you won't find a solution opening a Github issue.
Sorry.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

@krainboltgreene : > All because you people (of which like maybe one might even care about Opal in the first place) seem to equate me wanting the above to some ridiculous idea of censorship.

Well, lets then define what's censorship in order to verify your claim:

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.[1]

[...] When an individual such as an author or other creator engages in censorship of their own works or speech, it is called self-censorship. Censorship may be direct or it may be indirect, in which case it is called soft censorship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Censorship

So Yes, you are proposing censorship. If contributors fail to self-censor themselves in unrelated public forums, you are proposing that they get their work privileges on this project suspended. This is the "soft censorship" the quote above talks about.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/01/AR2009020101671.html

You are proposing self censorship by peer pressure.

@krainboltgreene

You straight up can't be a nice guy to work with and be a bigot, I'm sorry.
That's not how it works no matter how much you wish it did.

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 7:17 PM, lesley2015 notifications@github.com
wrote:

@krainboltgreene https://github.com/krainboltgreene excuse me but @elia
https://github.com/elia is a gentleman and a scholar. It's unfortunate
that you're either brainwashed or mentally retarded. Transwomen are cross
dressing men (who I support and welcome). They are not women. The reason
you get so upset by this statement of fact, is because you know it's true,
and the cognitive dissonance irks you.

Why don't you take your complaint to "A Voice for Men"? Must you preach
your mens rights here?


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#942 (comment).

Kurtis Rainbolt-Greene, Hacker
Software Developer
1631 8th St.
New Orleans, LA
70115

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

That's not how it works no matter how much you wish it did.

This is not how it works FOR YOU. It works differently for others.

It's your problem, not Opal's.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

You straight up can't be a nice guy to work with and be a bigot, I'm sorry.

I think the only people I'm sure I would feel uncomfortable to work with right now are you and @CoralineAda
You gave me proof that you can only create a toxic environment and I'm a big supporter of other's freedom, because I care about mine
BTW, @elia contribution is real and measurable, his good manners are well known, that's all I care
What @elia does outside here is none of my business
It's not like he killed a unicorn with his bare hands and drank its blood in the name of Opal…

EDIT: I think your problem is that you only want to work with your friends and/or people that think exactly the same as you. That's not gonna happen, unless you're the boss and work alone (in my case that's not even enough).
You don't have to be friends with Opal contributors to appreciate their work.
I hate Ted Nugent's political view, but I can't live without cat scratch fever

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

Value judgments about people, ideally, should be kept out of scope on this discussion.

It should not matters if someone admires a war hero or an inglorious bastard - if the code is good and he/she/it =P behaves in order to promote productive cooperation, that should be all that matters.

My agreement with your opinions will not change what I think it should be the right way on conducting a productive discussion about a problem.

@meltheadorable

Every post @lesley2015 makes cements the need for the code of conduct to be in place and enforced.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

Leslye's posts are far from being the worst problem around here.

For the second time this day, I must stand corrected: Leslye IS NOT trolling anyone here (as I wrongly stated above). The way the criticisms are being made, in my opinion, should change to be more productive, but that's all.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

@meltheadorable

enforced.

I don't like this word, sorry.
Have you tried applying the NCOC?
Have you tried to contact @lesley2015 to resolve the issue?

@juanplopes

@Lisias I think you are wrong. @lesley2015 is an one-day account (that is a deliberate effort to not hold accountable for any offensive things he/she is saying) that is stating vocally that trans women shouldn't be considered women. Maybe some of us grew in a society where this was acceptable. But it isn't anymore today.

And after all, it's not like @lesley2015 is debating the idea of the of gender identity's essence (and this isn't the place for that), he/she is just rhetorically stating with only his/her prejudice, anonymously. That is the very definition of trolling for me.

@meltheadorable

@Lisias Lesley is 100% absolutely trolling here. If you're unable to see it, then I can only imagine that you have somehow been mercifully spared exposure to other trolls of this sort, but it's actually unreal how obviously on-script this is if you have experience with them.

@SickOfThisCrap

@krainboltgreene - can you please justify your assertion that the original tweets were "hate?"

Pretty please? He said trans people weren't accepting reality. Did he say anything more? Anything? Please tell me there's more to it than that.

It was an ignorant thing to say, but not "hate."

@yesitsazerodayaccount

If you're unable to see it, then I can only imagine that you have somehow been mercifully spared exposure to other trolls of this sort

Sorry, just to be clear, are you saying that a different opinion implies ignorance on the other side?

@meltheadorable

@yesitsazerodayaccount In this case, that is the charitable interpretation yes.

@juanplopes

@lesley2015 You can't advocate peace and love for people whose gender identities are constantly questioned, attacked and in the focus of any issue. Free speech doesn't mean you can say anything without consequences. If you say racist things, you get arrested (I hope). If you attack the honor of someone, you may get prosecuted. If you say discriminating things, you may be considered unwelcome in some places.

You can't advocate peace and love if you defend those who discriminate, and not the ones discriminated.

@meltheadorable

@lesley2015 What does your inane bigoted bullshit have to do with the code of conduct?

@SickOfThisCrap

@lesley2015 is obviously a troll. Stop feeding it and someone please justify whether the original tweets that started this (remember them?!?!?!?!?!) were actually hateful

@meltheadorable

Github needs a way to block contributions from zero-day accounts.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

@meltheadorable
I mean, not that I agree or I care about things @lesley2015 is writing, because it's clearly not something we should debate here, but isn't feeding the troll making things worse?
if really we have a troll here, as you say

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

@juanplopes and @meltheadorable Yes, i thought exactly the same after his second post.

However, while not agreeing with the way he's criticizing the problem (I think he's being disruptive by rising secondary or irrelevant issues), I don't see him as a troll. There're others, with "real" accounts, trolling here. Badly.

The CoC could be applied on him? Probably. But again, he's the lesser of the offenders here.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

Github needs a way to block contributions from zero-day accounts.

or to protect other's people privacy
not everybody like it when years of your work get destroyed for expressing your opinions

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

Perhaps I'm too old school :-)

But the worst I can think from Leslye is as a Spin Doctor. An offense, but not as bad as trolling.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

@yesitsazerodayaccount has an EXCELLENT POINT here.

@SickOfThisCrap

or to protect other's people privacy
not everybody like it when years of your work get destroyed for expressing your opinions

People like Adria Richards prove this to be a true statement.

@juanplopes

@yesitsazerodayaccount Privacy != anonymity. This is an ongoing discussion here in Brazil, where the law protects privacy and free speech, but forbids anonymity.

If you think you got any unrightful sanctions for stating your opinion, I think any free country has laws that allow you to prosecute those who harmed you. But this isn't possible if people keep discussing anonymously.

@Lisias ⬆️

@meltheadorable

Frankly, the fact that adding a document that sets out controversial standards of behavior like "don't abuse people" has caused so much of a fucking uproar that an actual nazi and a legion of trolls from reddit/8chan/#GamerGate/vox day's blog/wherever felt the need to come park their asses down here and shit all over it is an indictment of the culture around free software.

@juanplopes

@lesley2015 I didn't say that. It was just an example of matters where free speech isn't free of consequences.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

Privacy != anonymity

in this case the are the same thing
because my real identity is the key to access my personal data
I'm sorry, I won't let anyone ruin my reputation because I wanted to express my support to the Opal team
hoping that the project will suffer no consequences from this accident
regardless of any opinion you might have on the people working on it, I think there's a lot of great work they've carried on

@utterbull

@juanplopes
Congratulations, you managed to bait me into responding.
"Free speech doesn't mean you can say anything without consequences."
In the USA, it does (with a couple of specific exceptions).
"If you say racist things, you get arrested (I hope)."
Not in the USA (I know).
"If you attack the honor of someone, you may get prosecuted."
In the USA libel has a much narrower definition.
"This is an ongoing discussion here in Brazil, where the law protects privacy and free speech, but forbids anonymity."
This is horrifying. I will pray for the safety of your country.

@meltheadorable
I don't see any National Socialists here.

@meltheadorable

@utterbull did you miss weev?

@juanplopes

@yesitsazerodayaccount If you can't hold liable for the things you say, the law just doesn't apply to you and you can say anything you want. I agree this is a delicate subject, specially in non-free countries. But I think one-day accounts here are just causing more harm than good.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

f you can't hold liable for the things you say, the law

I'm not scared by the law, what have I done to be scared by the law?
I'm scared by the troops of zealots that could call me bigot tomorrow on the interwebz posting screenshot of my account and bringing a shitstorm on projects I work on or accusing the people I work with of being accessory of a hate crime that never happened for real…
and Only because I hope that Opal goes on unharmed, because I'm a happy Opal user

@juanplopes

@utterbull I'm really not an expert in US law (specially with all the idiosyncrasies of all the states). But if everything you say is true, I retract myself from the discussion with a deeper knowledge of why some stuff are the way they are.

Thank you, nonetheless.

@SickOfThisCrap

Of course speech has consequences. The pressing question HERE is whether saying that "trans people aren't accepting reality" justifies all of this, and qualifies as "hate.".

It was an ignorant statement, but my vote would be "no."

@meltheadorable

@adambeynon @meh @elia @vais I've left y'all out of this because it's the weekend but can you please just shut all the stupid issues for collaborators only? Nothing of any value has happened here, or will happen here, until somebody has the time to ban every half-assed troll that wants to shit the place up until they get bored and move on.

@SickOfThisCrap

@meltheadorable - do you really not think this whole garbage started by you-know-who was a giant overreaction to the "accepting reality" tweet?

Do you really not see why people would be pissed if something so dumb (and it was dumb) as that can create this shit-storm? SJWs like this will create a chilling effect on the OSS community. I hate the idea of major contributors having to become more anonymous for fear of these people attempting to ruin them for a random dumb comment they might happen to make. And who among us doesn't say incredibly stupid things from time to time.

@utterbull

@meltheadorable
Who get's to decide who the trolls are?

@yesitsazerodayaccount

@SickOfThisCrap

And who among us doesn't say incredibly stupid things from time to time.

that's why I don't want my facebook page exposed :)
I only write stupid crap on facebook

@SickOfThisCrap

@yesitsazerodayaccount

I only write stupid crap on facebook

Me too. I'm extremely circumspect with what I write on Twitter. Which sucks. It sucks that the thought police can get people fired for saying things which are insufficiently politically correct.

@meltheadorable

@SickOfThisCrap It's not just that tweet, there's plenty more to go around, as well as the contents of the article he was agreeing with and discussing when he posted that tweet. It's a long-running pattern of active bigotry.

@utterbull I honestly don't even give a fuck anymore, because frankly the only people left at this point are trolls and the handful of masochists willing to swim through their pile of garbage in order to attempt to get a constructive outcome to this entire ordeal.

@SickOfThisCrap

@meltheadorable link to said article? Please? I really just want to see what was so horrible as to justify this.

@yesitsazerodayaccount

It's a long-running pattern of active bigotry.

assuming you're right:
you're trying to fight the bigotry how? with a different kind of bigotry?

I honestly don't even give a fuck anymore

so why don't you go to sleep? :)

@SickOfThisCrap

@meltheadorable - I think it's also worth mentioned that I've worked with plenty of people who were convinced that I, as an atheist, would burn forever in hell when I died for rejecting their religious dogma. I didn't try to get them punished for saying or believing the "wrong" things.

Speaking of religion, I can't help but wonder how many of these SJWs have said anti-Christian things on their social media. If I had the time, I wonder what I might find.

@utterbull

@SickOfThisCrap
"Speaking of religion, I can't help but wonder how many of these SJWs have said anti-Christian things on their social media. If I had the time, I wonder what I might find. "
Don't sink to their level.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

You guys are totally out of problem here. What @elia said, or is, or believes, are totally out of scope.

What matters is that a contributor (no matter who) said something (no matter what) out there (no matter where), and someone (no matter who neither) came here and tried poisoning the community against the guy. And this is all what matters.

You let this happen. You are the problem, not Caroline, neither eila, or even Leslye.

Anyone can get here from nowhere, state some idiocy about one of your contributors and everybody then thinks it could be a good idea to promote a CoC that will control the behaviour of... THE OFFENDED CONTRIBUTOR!!! #facePalm

You should stand for the people of your own community. @adambeynon should had standed for his project contributors. Instead, you let third parties deciding how you must behave in order to get your own job done!!!!

This is the core problem that the CoC doesn't address - au contraire, the CoC endorses the problem!

@SickOfThisCrap

@utterbull - I won't :)

Of course even if I did, they'd have some garbage excuse about how Christian is the "privileged" position, and so it's ok to shit on them ... or some such thing.

@juanplopes

@SickOfThisCrap Not that this matters, but I'd be equally sad. Or even more sad, as this affects me personally (I'm not Christian, but my wife is and my son will probably also be). No discrimination is acceptable.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

The CoC should defend the contributors as well.

@SickOfThisCrap

@juanplopes - the world would be a lot simpler if we all thought the same. Also more boring. Unlike some here I don't think free speech is without consequences; I just think the bar should be pretty high. Much higher than anything I've seen so far.

If the contributor in question were calling for the mutilation and torture of trans people, then the Coraline Ada people would have a point. But not "coming around" on trans rights as quickly as these people might prefer should not qualify imo.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

If the contributor were calling for mutilation and torture of trans people, the issue shouldn't be brought here neither. It should be denounced to the Police, and the guy should be arrested and prosecuted.

And then, and just then, the issue should be brought here to be decided who will assume the guy's previous responsibilities.

(edit: I'm sorry for my constant grammatical errors)

@SickOfThisCrap

@Lisias - I respectfully disagree, but really this hypothetical is so far removed from what really happened that it's hardly worth discussing :)

The world is a big place. I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to try to exclude from OSS people who aren't coming around on trans rights quickly enough.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

@SickOfThisCrap I respectfully fail to understand where we disagree, given your last statement. :-)

@juanplopes

@SickOfThisCrap I must say that I didn't agree with Coraline's action at first (and she did herself apologize to Elia for that on Twitter). I have a lot of conservative friends who share Elia's opinion and actions. And I think he seems a real gentleman in the action part (like my friends also do). And I also still can't agree someone must be unthoughtfully forced to stop saying things he believes in.

But then I saw the thread, with @meh's answers and the trolls (on both sides), etc. And I thought of how hard OSS is for black people, women, gays, trans, and almost any non-dominant group in our history. And I can't help but think even Elia being a person I'd probably have as friend, if we knew each other, his opinions, linked to the fact that many people who follow him on Twitter do that because he contributes on this project, are the cause of the cruel state of this industry.

And that's why I support the code of conduct. Because Coraline may be a vocal trans woman (among many others), but how many are silent, afraid of having to deal with this very reaction we're having here?

I'm sorry, but I can't agree one's free speech are worth more other's well being.

@SickOfThisCrap

@Lisias - I'm just saying hypothetical statements like I said may or may not be illegal depending on where said, but would (imo) justify calling for that contributor's removal. As would calling for "shipping n*ggers back to Africa" etc. There is such a thing as hate speech, and it shouldn't be tolerated. It's hard to define, I know. And the existence of such a line, I fully recognize, is open to abuse, as we're seeing right this very minute from Coraline Ada and her ilk. But this abuse doesn't imo justify removing the line.

But if what started this nonsense qualifies as hate speech, then my god, I think we all have a lot to worry about. How many of us don't say stupid things once in awhile.

Stupid != hate.

@SickOfThisCrap

@juanplopes - I do think meh handled it pretty horribly. Really. I think if he had responded more productively this probably could have all been avoided.

@scatpost

@ all yous people who think XY = male XX = female

Please google androgen insensitivity syndrome. Females with AIS have XY chromosomes almost exclusively identify as female and have always been considered female by all of society for all time and forever.

Gender dysphoria is often a learned psychosomatic disorder. But it can also have a strong heritable component either caused by a subjects own gens or by hormonal unbalance of the mother affecting the fetus's brain development. People who decide to undergo gender transition have a much higher rate of suicide than those who just deal with it and stick with there birth sex. This is a disorder is more dangerous than anorexia / bulimia which is another learned disorder having genetic predispositions. You wouldn't expect to see advertisements and media pushing the acceptance of anorexia or cutting at everyone yet in this case that is exactly what is happening along with other dangerous things like fat acceptance and gainers.

TL:DR we should have pity and tolerance for people with serious mental disorders but it is wrong to indulge them in there fantasies in public settings.

I enjoy being an otherkin, entering that mentality is so much fun, but I know when a setting is appropriate for such behavior and when it's not. We in the fandom have to police our own sometimes because there are those who take ques from the social justice folks and think it should be acceptable for them to act out there fantasies constantly. I personally feel shame when I see someone I know prancing about campus making a fool of the fandom. This whole transgender thing is the same, you should have kept it to roll playing in non public settings instead of growing breasts, lobbing off your generals and trying to force the whole world to accept your degeneracy.

@meltheadorable

Thank you @scatpost for the hourly reminder of why we need a code of conduct.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

@juanplopes What you says is the reason we have people wanted by the Interpol being elected.

I can guarantee Paulo Maluf get his feelings deeply hurt every time someone asks why Interpol has his picture on the wanted page.

@scatpost

@meltheadorable
Your welcome. But I don't know if I can come up with something every hour -_-'

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

Yeah. The 0 day accounts are doing more harm then good. They poisoned the well, and now this exact page is being promoted on Twitter as a discussion about transgendering, and not about what ir should be - a way to define how the community could work better without being disrupted.

This issue is, now, hijacked to be used to enforce unrelated people's own agenda at the expenses of the Opal's community.

@utterbull

@Lisias
The zero-day accounts are unfortunate, but as has been mentioned before, they are needed when people don't feel safe.

@meltheadorable

Yeah, you can't even be an open bigot anymore without people getting mad at you and questioning whether you should be in charge of running a diverse and inclusive community. What's the world coming to?

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

@utterbull I understand, and I second that.

But (some of) they managed to hijack this discussion nevertheless, and there's nothing one could had done to prevent it (except by locking it from everybody that is not a member of the project).

This discussion is not about the Opal community anymore. We had been played.

edit: I replace "You" with "We" in my last sentence, as I'm part of it too. I'm including myself in my criticism

@scatpost

@Lisias not just twitter, its also on reddit, tumbler and at least two chans. It's like a proxy war between superpowers and neither side actually cares about Opal. But yeah the SJW blew it up on twitter first to kick off the dogpile.

Persinally I think JavaScript is botnet and Opal should instead focus on Ruby to full Java or even better to ActiveX plugin :^)

Everyone just loves ActiveX right?

Should I start a fork for the ActiveX version? I'll let the SJW wright the code of conduct, I'm sure they would all work on it for free.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

No, @lesley2015 , WE are the problem. We let them do it.

@SickOfThisCrap

@Lisias

No, @lesley2015 , WE are the problem. We let them do it.

Now that, I agree with fully :)

@Ajedi32
Ajedi32 commented Jun 21, 2015

@Lisias
Huh? What do you mean? How did anyone let anyone do anything? You can't exactly stop people from posting on GitHub.

In fact, meh dealt with the problem pretty decisively when it first came up. Closed the issue with "Bring contributions, they will be accepted with open arms, bring morals and politics in here, and you will be shown the metaphorical door." Kinda went downhill from there though once the Twitter mob got word of the situation.

@dandv
dandv commented Jun 21, 2015

What does this discussion have to do with Opal?

Why am I participating here, even though I've never used Opal?

Let's stop this madness and take it off of GitHub.

@Cephel
Cephel commented Jun 21, 2015

Let's recap

SJWs start an issue where there is none, then pretend the issue was caused by people they oppose, force a CoC which allows them to target people they don't like and justify the backlash against their terrorism is proof that the CoC was needed in the first place.

Am I the only one to notice something very very wrong with this?

@orionblastar

First off I have nothing against GLBT people. I am empathetic to anyone who struggles to find a job and has problems fitting into society and has been bullied and picked on. As someone who is mentally ill I've had that happen to me. The difference is that I have nobody defending me because of my mental illness, there is no political correctness that can be used in my case.

Political correctness can vary based on person to person. What we are seeing here is debates of "I'm right because my feelings are hurt and political correctness" instead of "I'm right because of this evidence here and this scientific theory here and this logic and data here." in STEM we go by evidence and the peer reviewed scientific method. We don't go by feelings and political correctness as the guide to what is correct.

In all of the time debating over a CoC, it could have been time to submit code to Opal and make it better. Instead we choose to fight over what someone might have said or implied by taking their words out of context, and in some cases some have spoken in ignorance because they didn't take a genders study class to find out how to deal with transgender people. We have a lot of SJWs who attack religious people here and troll cisgendered people as well proving hypocrisy. We have a lot of zero day accounts that just add noise to the conversation and get us nowhere.

If you can write code, then submit some code to project Opal and see how it goes. If you can't write code and just came here to troll people, you are what is wrong with the STEM industry and you need to leave, or choose to drop the trolling and learn how to code and submit code to help out.

@Cephel
Cephel commented Jun 21, 2015

@orionblastar I tried to propose an alternative to literal Orwell. People thought I was trolling and rejected it based on that alone. At this point contributing to projects that just sway in the wind and bend to the largest noise becomes increasingly frustrating, because you're working on a community, for years and suddenly outside forces come in and demand you change the way you think because they feel being offended gives you any rights.

It doesn't.

@scatpost

@orionblastar but the coc they want fights against the pervasive cult of meritocracy which is what your promoting. They don't care how good you code only that you agree with there ever progressing progressivisam. And when your not progressive enough for the new fad to be championed they will eat there own.

@cmdrkotori

You know what the sad thing about this is? All we are doing by including a CoC is to give trolls a pole to hang someone from. You only have to wait for the next time someone on the team gets baited. That's why it is a bad idea.

It's also a bad idea because you don't need one. If I can go about making a full-blown clone of MPC-HC without a uml diagram much less a full-fledged coding standards doc, just like many other projects out there even more complicated than that, surely you can make do without a CoC. Furthermore, the development team changes all the time and CoCs literally become outdated. It's stupid.

Furthermore, as developers who have to review pull requests and judge code based on functionality instead of who wrote it, we are obligated to inform all lawyering snowflakes who want their hand held with a set of rules like they had on the school playground that obstructionists to that process are not welcome.

In my opinion, the best approach from now is to revert the commits about this, lock the threads, and get back to work.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

@Ajedi32 One is not responsible for what others do with he, but he's responsible for what he does with what was done with him.

WE (as as group os persons) failed to address correctly the problem, and after, we failed on keep the alleged problem in perspective.

As I said before, it's damn to easy to anyone from "out there" came here and play havoc with anyone of the community members. Instead of protecting one of your own, you choose to impose an CoC that endorses the problem, instead of prevent it: you blamed the victim (elia) for the bad behaviour of a external person that came here to enforce her own personal agenda.

The deadliest poison in the whole World is all but inoffensive if you choose not to ingest it.

But you choose to ingest it.

@SweetLordy

If you guys are still fighting, here's how I see it.

I'm transgender.

I'm mostly accepted now, as we can see. People will fight for my rights, even non-LGBT people.
This didn't happen even 20 years ago. I would've been murdered 70 years ago.

You know how I got here? I spoke out.
Transgender people spoke out.

I used my free speech and spoke out against what was morally popular, and because I was allowed to speak my mind, no matter how strange, offensive, evil, corrupt or perverted people thought of transgender or even LGBT people as a whole, we were able to reach this place where a person like Coraline can be a PERSON WITH A LOT OF POWER, regarding this project.

Transgender people are gaining rights, and it's ONLY thanks to free speech.

I would never DARE limit anyone's free speech. Being transgender was once thoughtcrime.
Wearing girl clothes, as a male, was a morally wrong act, according to many.

If that view ever happened again... If there is ever a time where I must once again speak out, I would want to have FULL RIGHTS to freedom of speech.

I would want FULL protection to be able to voice my opinions, no matter how wrong or offensive.
Maybe not on THIS project or issue tracker, but on a personal blog like Twitter? Sure.

This CoC issue has become popular enough on the internet that we must think outside this project. Opal is big news now. It's no longer about Opal, it's about the entire internet.

If a CoC is made, and it reinforces the current liberal view point of censoring people for "thoughtcrime", then in 50 years, when LGBT people, or blacks, or jews, or asians, or any minority is being hunted or discriminated against once again, they will not be able to speak out.

We cannot breed an atmosphere of self-censorship and a fear of committing thoughtcrime.

This is NOT a private Opal issue anymore.

I hope you all realize that. This involves the entire internet now, and the decisions of a few will have a lasting effect throughout the rest of internet history.

I feel it's important for LGBT people, minorities of any color or class or creed, for non-minorities to embrace the crude, cruel and hurtful reality of the world, instead of trying to censor it.

One day, you may need to speak.
But will you be able to?

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

This is NOT a private Opal issue anymore.

I hope you all realize that. This involves the entire internet now, and the decisions of a few will have a lasting effect throughout the rest of internet history.

@SweetLordy , you are putting on this community's shoulders a burden that they didn't asked for neither deserve to. It's not up to them to carry on this fight.

I don't see why these guys actions and decisions should be put on a global perspective, I don't see anyone "out there" coming here to help them solve their problems - au contraire, all I'm seeing is they coming here to give these guys a lot of headaches. For nothing.

Promoting anything (no matter how rightful it is) at the expenses of others is not cool.

This project's people deserves a better treatment, and we, outlanders, should know better.

@Lisias
Lisias commented Jun 21, 2015

That said, please understand I'm not making statements against you, your beliefs or your gender. I think you are pretty right - I just don't agree that this is the place to do that.

We are guests here. We should know better.

@SweetLordy

Well, Lisias, if it doesn't end up being an internet-wide issue, then it doesn't.

But this is FOR SURE very popular, and getting attention outside of even just Github.
So eh. It is what it is. My speech was a bit dramatic, but still, this issue does capture my attention as a programmer and transgender person. Just my 3 cents.

I still feel that whatever decision ends up being made will be important on a global scale though, even if this battle isn't the "tipping point" in the "war" or whatever you'd call this.

@jacqueline-homan

@orionblastar :

"in STEM we go by evidence and the peer reviewed scientific method. We don't go by feelings and political correctness as the guide to what is correct."

Actually, that's not entirely true. One need not look too far into history to see horrific human rights violations committed under the auspices of "science" (Tuskagee Syphilis experiments being one example). The entire eugenics movement was based on some really bad "science" to justify the extermination of entire groups of people. Including people suffering from mental illness. In fact, it was those with learning disabilities, mental retardation, and mental illness who were the very first people targeted for state-enforced euthanasia in 1930's Germany. So we do need a balance of both "feelings" and "fact." The key word is "balance." We need to always ask questions and remember that agendas—which start out as feelings—do drive what is accepted as "fact." The most important question that too few people ask is the "grail question": Cui bono? (Latin for "who is benefiting?").

But I do get what you're saying and I agree with you. I would also like to reach out to you and let you know that I really like your posts because you are an empath. The world has too many people that are missing an empathy chip. You've added some really good things to the conversation, and I sincerely hope I am not the only person who read your posts and recognizes the value in them.

As an aside, one of my mentors is a pretty brilliant guy (who is in the functional programming community) and he suffers from mental illness too and a lot of other people are put off by him. I however, am not. I accept him the way he is. I have weighed the good, the bad, and the ugly and found his mentorship as well as his personal friendship to far outweigh any of the "bumps" and "bruises" his lack of social skills due to mental illness. Many corporate types won't work with him. But I can, I will, and I do. He has enriched my life enormously (he was the one who turned me on to F#). He is a core member of my own cash-starved LLC that is trying to bootstrap a project. I would not trade him for another Haskell mentor for all the rubies in Madagascar.

I would be honored to have you as a friend and a coding buddy as well. So feel free to reach out :) . I'm only a junior level developer and a polyglot (lack of job opportunities for me as a marginalized person not protected or defended by SWJ's kinda forces that so I can freelance my way into keeping my utilities on, food on the table, and a leaky roof over my head). My email is: jacquelinehoman7@gmail.com

@jacqueline-homan

@Cephel :

Let's recap

SJWs start an issue where there is none, then pretend the issue was caused by people they oppose, force a CoC which allows them to target people they don't like and justify the backlash against their terrorism is proof that the CoC was needed in the first place.

Am I the only one to notice something very very wrong with this?

No, you're not the only one who noticed that. As soon as I saw things escalate to a bloody feeding frenzy, my bullshit detection siren started going off big time. At risk of sounding shrill, I will go out on a limb and admit that the thought has crossed my mind that this may have been orchestrated with specific intent to deliberately destroy the Opal project without any consideration for the degree of harm and sabotage that would be inflicted on the entire rest of the OSS community as a result.

I have seen other OSS projects sabotaged and destroyed by SJW's. Gittip, which was a project in the Python community, is a prime example of that: and sadly, it was one if its biggest financial beneficiaries that was the chief SJW that led the attack and totally publicly smeared and trashed that project's maintainer.

So now, no one uses Gittip—which was supposed to help marginalized people who are truly poor and disadvantaged who are trying to break into IT and get a toehold onto the IT jobs ladder, who DO need economic support to be able to join the field. As a result of that brouhaha, the intended beneficiaries of that project cannot benefit from it and it was precisely supposed to be for helping us. (Thanks a lot for nothing, SWJ's!)

I really don't want to see a replay of that for the Opal community, which is part of the larger Ruby community of which I am a member. In fact, I don't want to see a replay of it anywhere in the open source community at all.

@juanplopes

So are you all telling me that even our industry having an extreme bias towards some gender/race stereotype, are you all willing to weight the voice of who is speaking solely by a metric where the dominant stereotype has clear advantage by the very reason we have the bias (please note how much 'code' we've read so far, almost no other form of contribution is even mentioned)?

Don't you acknowledge the lack of diversity of our industry or you just don't care?

@SweetLordy

@juanplopes

"Our Industry".

Who's industry?

I don't view the ability to create amazing things with programming code to be exclusive to anyone.

I can program, you can program, anyone who wants to learn to program can learn to program.
Computers do not judge your race or gender or religion. It will either work or it won't, according to the laws of physics that the processor relies on and the laws of logic that the language is built with.

The OTHER people involved? The social aspect?

It's not my place to tell them how to live or act, nor is it yours.

Haven't you read the Hacker Manifesto?

@juanplopes

I can program, you can program, anyone who wants to learn to program can learn to program.

Yet, some specific demographics do a lot more than others. Strange, huh?

It's not my place to tell them how to live or act, nor is it yours.

So discussing social issues in open source isn't allowed, then?

Haven't you read the Hacker Manifesto?

I have, and it is bulshit.

@SweetLordy

Yet, some specific demographics do a lot more than others. Strange, huh?

This will change naturally as computers become more and more mainstream, and cheaper as well.
I also don't think it's "Strange, huh?". Do you think it's some sort of conspiracy against other demographics?

Because that's absolutely absurd, and if there IS a conspiracy, it's directly from the government or some sort of religious authority.

If you seek such powerful rules in your favor, then you desire that same power.

This "demographics" problem must be changed at the child-education level. Not with dystopian rules like the ones currently being proposed.

So discussing social issues in open source isn't allowed, then?

You can discuss whatever you desire.

However, can you handle the opposite? Can you handle someone talking about a social issue that opposes yours? Obviously not.

I have, and it is bulshit.

It is immature because a kid wrote it, but if you don't understand it, then that's probably because you're not a hacker.

@juanplopes

This will change naturally as computers become more and more mainstream, and cheaper as well.
I also don't think it's "Strange, huh?". Do you think it's some sort of conspiracy against other demographics?

I don't think there's a conspiracy. I think there's a self feedback loop, like the one shown here. It's like saying everyone can make money, but it is naturally much easier to make money if you already have money. And suddenly, the poor stays poor and the rich stays rich, with exceptions of course. And when someone says there is inequity, they're told "everyone can make money".

However, can you handle the opposite? Can you handle someone talking about a social issue that opposes yours? Obviously not.

We're talking right now. I don't want people to be forced to not speak. As I said before, I have a lot of conservative friends as well. I just want to be sure their opinion won't backlash minority groups, like is happening here. And I stated: I don't even really agree Elia should really be removed from the project. But the discussion took another path a long time ago, I'd say in the few first posts in the other issue.

It is immature because a kid wrote it, but if you don't understand it, then that's probably because you're not a hacker.

Oh, I'm so not a hacker. Specially because I love code so much I think everyone should be allowed and incentivized to do it, not only a selected group of privileged people. And no one is special just because learned to code early (which I did).

@AmbientMalice

Let us consider Scientology. To a Scientologist, the teachings of Scientology form the very core of their identity and their day to day life.

Now there are people in this world, shocking as it may sound, who have the audacity to declare that Scientologists are delusional. Some even advocate persecution of innocent Scientologists, accusing them of being part of some scam. Even whispers of child abuse.

Thankfully, as we value inclusion above all else, we harshly expel anyone who spouts such bigotry or even gives tacit approval to such disgusting claims.

@jacqueline-homan

So you all are telling me that even our industry having an extreme bias towards some gender/race stereotype, are you all willing to weight the voice of who is speaking solely by a metric where the dominant stereotype has clear advantage by the very reason we have the bias (please note how much 'code' we've read so far, almost no other form of contribution is even mentioned)?

We have a diversity problem because SWJ's claiming to promote diversity don't want to include the voices of the most disprivileged and marginalized and instead want to control the whole convo—which serves no interest other than the protection of their own socio-economic class privileges.

We have a diversity problem because the mass line is used to cover up the class line.

It has not escaped my notice that the only voices of underrepresented persons in tech that ever get a platform are those who enjoy middle/upper class privilege. A woman who is young, lucky to be employed and affluent and who is a pro-prostitution promoter gets paid to speak on "diversity issues" at Alterconf—but not the poor older lady who couldn't even afford her first computer until age 45 who is facing far more barriers to employment (due to ageism, classism, and sexism) who suffered lifelong poverty and marginalization because of being a human trafficking survivor that is involved in the anti-trafficking efforts does NOT get that same opportunity, or any help from the SWJ's.

Don't you acknowledge the lack of diversity of our industry or you just don't care?

No one here denied that the lack of opportunity for many groups is a problem. I don't think that's a fair question. Nor do I think it is fair that to jump to the conclusion that no one else cares. I obviously DO care. Which is why I challenged the SWJ's upthread to actually extend a material, economic helping hand up to poor marginalized folks trying to break into IT and to stop invisiblizing truly poor and disadvantaged members of underrepresented/invisibilized groups—like poor human trafficking survivors who struggled in lifelong crushing poverty due to being rendered unemployable because of being deeply stigmatized for being the victims of a human rights crime.

@SweetLordy

@AmbientMalice understands that s/he can speak his/her mind.

This person also recognizes that because they're comparing transgender people to scientologists, that this would offend me on a personal level.

For this reason, I no longer like or respect AmbientMalice.

But that offensive view is just one aspect of their personality, and although I disagree personally, if they had good code and still respected me enough to not just bash or mock me for being transgender upon every meeting, I could work with this person.

This is what a Code of Conflict is for. If someone is being purposely rude or mean to someone, I should be able to seek relief.

On the other hand, AmbientMalice's career should not be in jeopardy just because AmbientMalice is an asshole, or even a bad person.

@adambeynon
Contributor

Locking

@adambeynon adambeynon locked and limited conversation to collaborators Jun 21, 2015
@adambeynon
Contributor

I have locked this issue not to stop the conversation, but to direct it to somewhere more appropriate.

Over the last few days, a number of people in this conversation have taken the issue in hand and shown that discrimination against other individuals in our industry is, quite frankly, alarming. The tech/development/computer industry has a long and troubled history of discrimination against various groups of individuals which, judging by some of the comments in this and other threads, shows no sign of improving anytime soon.

To the people who contributed comments and messages looking to improve our community: thank you.

This whole matter could have been sorted in a peaceful manner; instead the problems in our community are not just present inside Opal, they are still present within the whole developer community.

I encourage every individual who has taken part in this conversation to review our recently committed Code of Conduct. That is the standard this project will be run against, however I am open to making further improvements.

Please help continue this discussion at http://metaruby.com/c/ruby-forum/community-issues

Thank you,

Adam.

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