Update Contributor Covenant to include ethnicity

[strand]

No description provided.

[meltheadorable]

This is a necessary change, version 1.0 of the contributor covenant fails to address the situation which started this: the gross misconduct of one of your core maintainers spewing a veritable mountain of hate and ignorance about LGBT people on a social media platform where he constantly ties himself to your project and refers to himself as a core maintainer.

[meltheadorable]

This is a necessary change, version 1.0 of the contributor covenant fails to address the situation which started this: the gross misconduct of one of your core maintainers spewing a veritable mountain of hate and ignorance about LGBT people on a social media platform where he constantly ties himself to your project and refers to himself as a core maintainer.

[meh]

@meltheadorable and I've already stated that he has the right to do so, he wasn't interacting with anyone withing the project, he's free to express himself however he feels like outside of Opal.

The fact he's an Opal core contributor is public on the organization's page, so it's irrelevant if he puts in his profile that he is one, especially since he is one.

[meh]

@meltheadorable and I've already stated that he has the right to do so, he wasn't interacting with anyone withing the project, he's free to express himself however he feels like outside of Opal.

The fact he's an Opal core contributor is public on the organization's page, so it's irrelevant if he puts in his profile that he is one, especially since he is one.

[meltheadorable]

@meh Your conduct has been at issue too, you have been obstinate, hostile, dismissive, and you told the author of the code of conduct we are discussing that she wasn't capable of making meaningful open source contributions yesterday.

If @adambeynon keeps you two on as core maintainers after the way you've behaved, this project is making a definite statement that it does not care about a friendly or welcoming environment, and that it will accept behavior from its core maintainers that is hostile to broad groups of potential users and contributors because your technical output is more important.

How are we supposed to feel comfortable reporting code of conduct violations to the core maintainers when half of them are violating it regularly? Several of the repositories on your github profile are slurs against the groups this document was meant to protect and help welcome to the project, and @elia consistently advocates on his twitter account, where he frequently discusses the opal project, for removing my rights as a human being on the basis of my gender and sexual orientation.

How can I trust either of you to respond to code of conduct violations from other contributors when you see no problem with commiting them yourselves?

I have been evaluating Opal as a solution for my projects at work for the last couple of weeks, since it floated onto my radar, but I can't use an open source project where I know that, if I need to make modifications for my use case or fix a bug, the person standing between me and my next pull request thinks of me as sub-human.

[meltheadorable]

@meh Your conduct has been at issue too, you have been obstinate, hostile, dismissive, and you told the author of the code of conduct we are discussing that she wasn't capable of making meaningful open source contributions yesterday.

If @adambeynon keeps you two on as core maintainers after the way you've behaved, this project is making a definite statement that it does not care about a friendly or welcoming environment, and that it will accept behavior from its core maintainers that is hostile to broad groups of potential users and contributors because your technical output is more important.

How are we supposed to feel comfortable reporting code of conduct violations to the core maintainers when half of them are violating it regularly? Several of the repositories on your github profile are slurs against the groups this document was meant to protect and help welcome to the project, and @elia consistently advocates on his twitter account, where he frequently discusses the opal project, for removing my rights as a human being on the basis of my gender and sexual orientation.

How can I trust either of you to respond to code of conduct violations from other contributors when you see no problem with commiting them yourselves?

I have been evaluating Opal as a solution for my projects at work for the last couple of weeks, since it floated onto my radar, but I can't use an open source project where I know that, if I need to make modifications for my use case or fix a bug, the person standing between me and my next pull request thinks of me as sub-human.

[meh]

@meh Your conduct has been at issue too, you have been obstinate, hostile, dismissive, and you told the author of the code of conduct we are discussing that she wasn't capable of making meaningful open source contributions yesterday.

I disagree, I see everyone else's conduct at issue, demanding to remove a core contributor for somethign unrelated to the project is not good behavior.

And I said @CoralineAda isn't capable of contributing the way elia has been contributing, which apparently is true if all @CoralineAda can do is write code of conducts.

If @adambeynon keeps you two on as core maintainers after the way you've behaved, this project is making a definite statement that it does not care about a friendly or welcoming environment, and that it will accept behavior from its core maintainers that is hostile to broad groups of potential users and contributors because your technical output is more important.

I merely responded to hostility with hostility, that's natural.

How are we supposed to feel comfortable reporting code of conduct violations to the core maintainers when half of them are violating it regularly? Several of the repositories on your github profile are slurs against the groups this document was meant to protect and help welcome to the project, and @elia consistently advocates on his twitter account, where he frequently discusses the opal project, for removing my rights as a human being on the basis of my gender and sexual orientation.

Again, you don't know who or what I am, and you never will, because it's not relevant. This document would be "protecting" me as well, come to your own conclusions now.

How can I trust either of you to respond to code of conduct violations from other contributors when you see no problem with commiting them yourselves?

Because that behavior inside the project is unacceptable, but @elia did it on his own Twitter, completely unrelated to the project or anyone involved.

I have been evaluating Opal as a solution for my projects at work for the last couple of weeks, since it floated onto my radar, but I can't use an open source project where I know that, if I need to make modifications for my use case or fix a bug, the person standing between me and my next pull request thinks of me as sub-human.

Except you do not know that, except for @elia maybe.

[meh]

@meh Your conduct has been at issue too, you have been obstinate, hostile, dismissive, and you told the author of the code of conduct we are discussing that she wasn't capable of making meaningful open source contributions yesterday.

I disagree, I see everyone else's conduct at issue, demanding to remove a core contributor for somethign unrelated to the project is not good behavior.

And I said @CoralineAda isn't capable of contributing the way elia has been contributing, which apparently is true if all @CoralineAda can do is write code of conducts.

If @adambeynon keeps you two on as core maintainers after the way you've behaved, this project is making a definite statement that it does not care about a friendly or welcoming environment, and that it will accept behavior from its core maintainers that is hostile to broad groups of potential users and contributors because your technical output is more important.

I merely responded to hostility with hostility, that's natural.

How are we supposed to feel comfortable reporting code of conduct violations to the core maintainers when half of them are violating it regularly? Several of the repositories on your github profile are slurs against the groups this document was meant to protect and help welcome to the project, and @elia consistently advocates on his twitter account, where he frequently discusses the opal project, for removing my rights as a human being on the basis of my gender and sexual orientation.

Again, you don't know who or what I am, and you never will, because it's not relevant. This document would be "protecting" me as well, come to your own conclusions now.

How can I trust either of you to respond to code of conduct violations from other contributors when you see no problem with commiting them yourselves?

Because that behavior inside the project is unacceptable, but @elia did it on his own Twitter, completely unrelated to the project or anyone involved.

I have been evaluating Opal as a solution for my projects at work for the last couple of weeks, since it floated onto my radar, but I can't use an open source project where I know that, if I need to make modifications for my use case or fix a bug, the person standing between me and my next pull request thinks of me as sub-human.

Except you do not know that, except for @elia maybe.

[elia]

but I can't use an open source project where I know that […] the person standing between me and my next pull request thinks of me as sub-human.

This would be better phrased as:

but I can't use an open source project where I assume that […] the person standing between me and my next pull request thinks of me as sub-human.

This CoC thing seems just a lever to reach the #941 objective.

I don't think I treated anyone badly, especially in this project, if the owner wants to kick me out he's free to do so for whatever reason, I could complain but I'll respect his decision as I always respected everyone else.

[elia]

but I can't use an open source project where I know that […] the person standing between me and my next pull request thinks of me as sub-human.

This would be better phrased as:

but I can't use an open source project where I assume that […] the person standing between me and my next pull request thinks of me as sub-human.

This CoC thing seems just a lever to reach the #941 objective.

I don't think I treated anyone badly, especially in this project, if the owner wants to kick me out he's free to do so for whatever reason, I could complain but I'll respect his decision as I always respected everyone else.

[vais]

@meltheadorable, please, this has gone too far - I assure you that no one here thinks of you as sub-human. If there was even a hint of that vibe here, I would be the first one to leave. In the four months that I have been involved with this project on a daily basis, I have never witnessed anything of the sort. I do not use Twitter, so I do not know (and frankly don't particularly care) about other contributors' lives outside of this project. Everything that transpires on GitHub has been nothing but friendly and professional. And @elia has been most welcoming and friendly to me as a newcomer to the project without knowing anything about me - my religion (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, race, or ethnicity. The only thing he ever asked me (very politely and having prefixed that with "you don't have to answer") is what time zone I am in (South-East Asia), so we can coordinate work on the project.

❤️

[vais]

@meltheadorable, please, this has gone too far - I assure you that no one here thinks of you as sub-human. If there was even a hint of that vibe here, I would be the first one to leave. In the four months that I have been involved with this project on a daily basis, I have never witnessed anything of the sort. I do not use Twitter, so I do not know (and frankly don't particularly care) about other contributors' lives outside of this project. Everything that transpires on GitHub has been nothing but friendly and professional. And @elia has been most welcoming and friendly to me as a newcomer to the project without knowing anything about me - my religion (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, race, or ethnicity. The only thing he ever asked me (very politely and having prefixed that with "you don't have to answer") is what time zone I am in (South-East Asia), so we can coordinate work on the project.

❤️

[meltheadorable]

@meh I can't believe you actually doubled down on the hostility and dismissiveness on a thread discussing the code of conduct. Coraline is a talented rubyist who also recognizes the importance of good communities, and your behavior towards her and towards other people in these issues has been completely unacceptable.

Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include the use of sexual language or imagery, derogatory comments or personal attacks, trolling, public or private harassment, insults, or other unprofessional conduct.

You've already violated a couple of these provisions in the code of conduct in this pull request let alone in the other issues you've participated in. Can I assume you won't be enforcing or abiding by the code of conduct?

[meltheadorable]

@meh I can't believe you actually doubled down on the hostility and dismissiveness on a thread discussing the code of conduct. Coraline is a talented rubyist who also recognizes the importance of good communities, and your behavior towards her and towards other people in these issues has been completely unacceptable.

Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include the use of sexual language or imagery, derogatory comments or personal attacks, trolling, public or private harassment, insults, or other unprofessional conduct.

You've already violated a couple of these provisions in the code of conduct in this pull request let alone in the other issues you've participated in. Can I assume you won't be enforcing or abiding by the code of conduct?

[meh]

@meh I can't believe you actually doubled down on the hostility and dismissiveness on a thread discussing the code of conduct. Coraline is a talented rubyist who also recognizes the importance of good communities, and your behavior towards her and towards other people in these issues has been completely unacceptable.

As have been the behavior of others towards me, I respond in the same vein I'm addressed with.

You've already violated a couple of these provisions in the code of conduct in this pull request let alone in the other issues you've participated in. Can I assume you won't be enforcing or abiding by the code of conduct?

So have you with your personal attacks towards me, next time verify things before assuming, thanks.

[meh]

@meh I can't believe you actually doubled down on the hostility and dismissiveness on a thread discussing the code of conduct. Coraline is a talented rubyist who also recognizes the importance of good communities, and your behavior towards her and towards other people in these issues has been completely unacceptable.

As have been the behavior of others towards me, I respond in the same vein I'm addressed with.

You've already violated a couple of these provisions in the code of conduct in this pull request let alone in the other issues you've participated in. Can I assume you won't be enforcing or abiding by the code of conduct?

So have you with your personal attacks towards me, next time verify things before assuming, thanks.

[meltheadorable]

@elia I'm not sure what other conclusion I'm supposed to draw from the fact that you believe I should have fewer rights than other human beings. You can continue to pretend this won't impact your judgment and ability to engage with the community, but it already has.

[meltheadorable]

@elia I'm not sure what other conclusion I'm supposed to draw from the fact that you believe I should have fewer rights than other human beings. You can continue to pretend this won't impact your judgment and ability to engage with the community, but it already has.

[meltheadorable]

@meh So have you with your personal attacks towards me, next time verify things before assuming, thanks.

My question was an attempt to verify things, but you didn't actually answer me. Will you be enforcing the code of conduct? Can I trust that you will remove yourself from the project for insulting other contributors, trolling, making derogatory comments, and behaving unprofessionally?

[meltheadorable]

@meh So have you with your personal attacks towards me, next time verify things before assuming, thanks.

My question was an attempt to verify things, but you didn't actually answer me. Will you be enforcing the code of conduct? Can I trust that you will remove yourself from the project for insulting other contributors, trolling, making derogatory comments, and behaving unprofessionally?

[meh]

My question was an attempt to verify things, but you didn't actually answer me. Will you be enforcing the code of conduct? Can I trust that you will remove yourself from the project for insulting other contributors, trolling, making derogatory comments, and behaving unprofessionally?

Firstly, it isn't retroactive, secondly, if the situation arose I wouldn't have to respond in the same vein, I'd just enact the code of conduct, thirdly, questions can be personal attacks as well, but I wasn't referring to any of those questions.

Also the fact you don't even realize what were the personal attacks towards me is makes me think you aren't even careful with what you write to others.

[meh]

My question was an attempt to verify things, but you didn't actually answer me. Will you be enforcing the code of conduct? Can I trust that you will remove yourself from the project for insulting other contributors, trolling, making derogatory comments, and behaving unprofessionally?

Firstly, it isn't retroactive, secondly, if the situation arose I wouldn't have to respond in the same vein, I'd just enact the code of conduct, thirdly, questions can be personal attacks as well, but I wasn't referring to any of those questions.

Also the fact you don't even realize what were the personal attacks towards me is makes me think you aren't even careful with what you write to others.

[elia]

you believe I should have fewer rights than other human beings

You don't know what I believe or not, and you don't know me personally. Also "human rights" needs to be specified if we want to discuss that. But that's philosophy and politics and creeds and I don't think this is the right place for such discussion.

Assuming people will behave in a certain way based on their views is not cool, nor welcoming, and you can always be wrong in your assumptions.

You can continue to pretend this won't impact your judgment and ability to engage with the community, but it already has.

What do you know about my judgment?
Wrt engagement I've always done my best to help people, but I can't (and don't want to) control the decision of others to join this or other projects.

[elia]

you believe I should have fewer rights than other human beings

You don't know what I believe or not, and you don't know me personally. Also "human rights" needs to be specified if we want to discuss that. But that's philosophy and politics and creeds and I don't think this is the right place for such discussion.

Assuming people will behave in a certain way based on their views is not cool, nor welcoming, and you can always be wrong in your assumptions.

You can continue to pretend this won't impact your judgment and ability to engage with the community, but it already has.

What do you know about my judgment?
Wrt engagement I've always done my best to help people, but I can't (and don't want to) control the decision of others to join this or other projects.

[jaredcwhite]

@strand @meltheadorable "This code of conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community."

If that language does actually get adopted into the Opal project, I am going to be extremely reluctant and uncomfortable supporting and contributing to the Opal ecosystem any further. This goes against the spirit of OSS and free software. We are all volunteers here. Nobody is getting paid by a mothership to create Opal or contribute code -- and even if they were getting paid, their employer is not Opal. What we do on our own time, outside of the Opal project's direct communication channels and codebase, is our own business. I simply can't imagine participating in a project that places any kind of demand or limit on what I say or do online outside of the context of the Opal project. That is simply wrong.

[jaredcwhite]

@strand @meltheadorable "This code of conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community."

If that language does actually get adopted into the Opal project, I am going to be extremely reluctant and uncomfortable supporting and contributing to the Opal ecosystem any further. This goes against the spirit of OSS and free software. We are all volunteers here. Nobody is getting paid by a mothership to create Opal or contribute code -- and even if they were getting paid, their employer is not Opal. What we do on our own time, outside of the Opal project's direct communication channels and codebase, is our own business. I simply can't imagine participating in a project that places any kind of demand or limit on what I say or do online outside of the context of the Opal project. That is simply wrong.

[Ajedi32]

@jaredcwhite Depends on what that means. Like @meh said, that statement is pretty ambiguous. I took "representing the project or its community" to mean situations where contributors are speaking officially on behalf of the project itself.

[Ajedi32]

@jaredcwhite Depends on what that means. Like @meh said, that statement is pretty ambiguous. I took "representing the project or its community" to mean situations where contributors are speaking officially on behalf of the project itself.

[meltheadorable]

@elia You don't know what I believe or not

I actually do, because you posted it on your twitter account, multiple times.

[meltheadorable]

@elia You don't know what I believe or not

I actually do, because you posted it on your twitter account, multiple times.

[meltheadorable]

Firstly, it isn't retroactive, secondly, if the situation arose I wouldn't have to respond in the same vein, I'd just enact the code of conduct, thirdly, questions can be personal attacks as well, but I wasn't referring to any of those questions.

@meh I was only describing your behavior in this pull request, the code of conduct had already been adopted when this PR was opened.

[meltheadorable]

Firstly, it isn't retroactive, secondly, if the situation arose I wouldn't have to respond in the same vein, I'd just enact the code of conduct, thirdly, questions can be personal attacks as well, but I wasn't referring to any of those questions.

@meh I was only describing your behavior in this pull request, the code of conduct had already been adopted when this PR was opened.

[elia]

And everyone knows that twitter is perfect at summarizing people's life

[elia]

And everyone knows that twitter is perfect at summarizing people's life

[meh]

@meh I was only describing your behavior in this pull request, the code of conduct had already been adopted when this PR was opened.

In that case I should have enacted it against you for your behavior, and not me since I didn't break it in this pull request.

sexual language or imagery

Nope.

derogatory comments or personal attacks

Nope, the comment was in reference to what had been said in the previous issue, and the keyword in there was apparently, since @elia never contributed a code of conduct but many other things, Coraline did not contribute anything in the fields @elia did, which makes the statement in the previous issue currently hold true.

trolling

Nope.

public or private harassment

Nope.

insults

Nope.

or other unprofessional conduct

Ambiguous.

[meh]

@meh I was only describing your behavior in this pull request, the code of conduct had already been adopted when this PR was opened.

In that case I should have enacted it against you for your behavior, and not me since I didn't break it in this pull request.

sexual language or imagery

Nope.

derogatory comments or personal attacks

Nope, the comment was in reference to what had been said in the previous issue, and the keyword in there was apparently, since @elia never contributed a code of conduct but many other things, Coraline did not contribute anything in the fields @elia did, which makes the statement in the previous issue currently hold true.

trolling

Nope.

public or private harassment

Nope.

insults

Nope.

or other unprofessional conduct

Ambiguous.

[meltheadorable]

@elia And everyone knows that twitter is perfect at summarizing people's life

Twitter doesn't need to summarize your whole life, but you were perfectly clear when you compared gay rights activists to the gestapo.

[meltheadorable]

@elia And everyone knows that twitter is perfect at summarizing people's life

Twitter doesn't need to summarize your whole life, but you were perfectly clear when you compared gay rights activists to the gestapo.

[elia]

Not sure what tweet you're referring to, but I'm a critic of some behavior I see enacted by some gay activists, I'm also a critic of this kind of falsely popular trial and scrutiny I'm the object of. The list is not complete.

[elia]

Not sure what tweet you're referring to, but I'm a critic of some behavior I see enacted by some gay activists, I'm also a critic of this kind of falsely popular trial and scrutiny I'm the object of. The list is not complete.

[viktirhale]

@meltheadorable My question was an attempt to verify things, but you didn't actually answer me. Will you be enforcing the code of conduct? Can I trust that you will remove yourself from the project for insulting other contributors, trolling, making derogatory comments, and behaving unprofessionally?

Can we trust that you'll hold yourself and those who share your views to the same level of scrutiny? I'm guessing on paper you will, but in practice you won't. The people you've been interacting with have been fairly neutral (for people with an angry mod building in front of them), yet you constantly insist that they're doing something wrong because you're far more concerned with making this a "you're either with us or against us" argument. I like how the rules are expected to be conveniently enforced when you and your friends don't like the behavior of someone, but if you yourself are being a complete dipshit, it's suddenly protected because you "don't feel welcome".

What the hell is it with the SJW crowd and basically walking into a populated city, forcing a conversion/banishment dichotomy upon the entirety of the population by creating a war over nothing, claim the city for themselves, and then look out upon it saying "wow, look at this beautiful city we've created".. instead of just building their own in the first place? You literally chastise and shame any and all examples of this in modern times or history, but yet again: conveniently it's okay when you're doing it.

[viktirhale]

@meltheadorable My question was an attempt to verify things, but you didn't actually answer me. Will you be enforcing the code of conduct? Can I trust that you will remove yourself from the project for insulting other contributors, trolling, making derogatory comments, and behaving unprofessionally?

Can we trust that you'll hold yourself and those who share your views to the same level of scrutiny? I'm guessing on paper you will, but in practice you won't. The people you've been interacting with have been fairly neutral (for people with an angry mod building in front of them), yet you constantly insist that they're doing something wrong because you're far more concerned with making this a "you're either with us or against us" argument. I like how the rules are expected to be conveniently enforced when you and your friends don't like the behavior of someone, but if you yourself are being a complete dipshit, it's suddenly protected because you "don't feel welcome".

What the hell is it with the SJW crowd and basically walking into a populated city, forcing a conversion/banishment dichotomy upon the entirety of the population by creating a war over nothing, claim the city for themselves, and then look out upon it saying "wow, look at this beautiful city we've created".. instead of just building their own in the first place? You literally chastise and shame any and all examples of this in modern times or history, but yet again: conveniently it's okay when you're doing it.

[meltheadorable]

@meh Now's your chance to enforce the code of conduct that has already been adopted by this project -- I believe somebody telling me to hang myself would be considered a violation.

[meltheadorable]

@meh Now's your chance to enforce the code of conduct that has already been adopted by this project -- I believe somebody telling me to hang myself would be considered a violation.

[Ajedi32]

@meltheadorable It's a one-off troll account. It'll probably get banned from GitHub soon anyway regardless of what actions the Opal team takes. But yes, that comment should definitely be edited to remove the unprofessional language, or just deleted entirely.

[Ajedi32]

@meltheadorable It's a one-off troll account. It'll probably get banned from GitHub soon anyway regardless of what actions the Opal team takes. But yes, that comment should definitely be edited to remove the unprofessional language, or just deleted entirely.

[viktirhale]

@meltheadorable Now's your chance to enforce the code of conduct that has already been adopted by this project -- I believe somebody telling me to hang myself would be considered a violation.

@Ajedi32 It's a one-off troll account. It'll probably get banned from GitHub soon anyway regardless of what actions the Opal team takes. But yes, that comment should definitely be edited to remove the unprofessional language, or just deleted entirely.

Yes.. because that one line/statement completely invalidates everything else I said and/or contributed to the discussion. Oh wait.. no it doesn't; it just upsets the poor girl having a temper-tantrum over not feeling comfortable with every word said by anyone she interacts with at all times and thus conveniently means everything else I've said or done is called into question.

It's almost like creating a throwaway account so that I don't suddenly have an angry mob hunting me down on every corner of the internet is the only way to contribute to the discussion with my apparently dissenting opinion.

[viktirhale]

@meltheadorable Now's your chance to enforce the code of conduct that has already been adopted by this project -- I believe somebody telling me to hang myself would be considered a violation.

@Ajedi32 It's a one-off troll account. It'll probably get banned from GitHub soon anyway regardless of what actions the Opal team takes. But yes, that comment should definitely be edited to remove the unprofessional language, or just deleted entirely.

Yes.. because that one line/statement completely invalidates everything else I said and/or contributed to the discussion. Oh wait.. no it doesn't; it just upsets the poor girl having a temper-tantrum over not feeling comfortable with every word said by anyone she interacts with at all times and thus conveniently means everything else I've said or done is called into question.

It's almost like creating a throwaway account so that I don't suddenly have an angry mob hunting me down on every corner of the internet is the only way to contribute to the discussion with my apparently dissenting opinion.

[meltheadorable]

@meh @elia @vais @adambeynon You have a code of conduct, and a contributor in @viktirhale who has engaged in personal attacks, trolling, insults, and harassment in this thread. If you intend to enforce the code of conduct you adopted now would be a good time to start. This is a relatively unambiguous case.

[meltheadorable]

@meh @elia @vais @adambeynon You have a code of conduct, and a contributor in @viktirhale who has engaged in personal attacks, trolling, insults, and harassment in this thread. If you intend to enforce the code of conduct you adopted now would be a good time to start. This is a relatively unambiguous case.

[vais]

@meltheadorable, you realize we have no idea who this person is, and whomever this person is, he or she is not a contributor to Opal nor in any way associated with Opal, right?

This was a quiet, peaceful place I quite enjoyed just two days ago...

[vais]

@meltheadorable, you realize we have no idea who this person is, and whomever this person is, he or she is not a contributor to Opal nor in any way associated with Opal, right?

This was a quiet, peaceful place I quite enjoyed just two days ago...

[meltheadorable]

@vais Then you should have no problem deleting their comments and blocking them from future posts, right? In accordance with the adopted code of conduct?

Project maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct.

[meltheadorable]

@vais Then you should have no problem deleting their comments and blocking them from future posts, right? In accordance with the adopted code of conduct?

Project maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or reject comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions that are not aligned to this Code of Conduct.

[Ajedi32]

@viktirhale Yeah, that's why I suggested "edited" as an alternative to deletion. You made a couple good points, but if you want to participate in this discussion you're going to have to be civil about it. Comments like "go hang yourself" aren't constructive and don't help your case.

And yeah, I can definitely appreciate a desire for anonymity.

[Ajedi32]

@viktirhale Yeah, that's why I suggested "edited" as an alternative to deletion. You made a couple good points, but if you want to participate in this discussion you're going to have to be civil about it. Comments like "go hang yourself" aren't constructive and don't help your case.

And yeah, I can definitely appreciate a desire for anonymity.

[viktirhale]

@meltheadorable @meh @elia @vais @adambeynon You have a code of conduct, and a contributor in @viktirhale who has engaged in personal attacks, trolling, insults, and harassment in this thread. If you intend to enforce the code of conduct you adopted now would be a good time to start. This is a relatively unambiguous case.

..and you have one of the greatest victim complexes I've ever seen. It's okay, though.. I'm sure after a long exhausting day of stomping your feet and crying with the rest of the @CoralineAda supporters, it'll be nice and refreshing for you to see someone removed (whom you have no confirmation as to whether or not does or does not contribute to the project), you'll find victory in the fact that you've all managed to essentially bully people into "supporting" your views or risk being crucified in public by an angry mob.

What's funny is that we probably agree in many other aspects of the things that have been brought up, but because I dare to call it bullshit that you're conveniently heralding the enforcement of rules when it favors you and exempting yourself from them when it doesn't.. I get to be the test-run for your new little echo-chamber ruleset as you attempt to sick your new dogs on me, so to speak.

[viktirhale]

@meltheadorable @meh @elia @vais @adambeynon You have a code of conduct, and a contributor in @viktirhale who has engaged in personal attacks, trolling, insults, and harassment in this thread. If you intend to enforce the code of conduct you adopted now would be a good time to start. This is a relatively unambiguous case.

..and you have one of the greatest victim complexes I've ever seen. It's okay, though.. I'm sure after a long exhausting day of stomping your feet and crying with the rest of the @CoralineAda supporters, it'll be nice and refreshing for you to see someone removed (whom you have no confirmation as to whether or not does or does not contribute to the project), you'll find victory in the fact that you've all managed to essentially bully people into "supporting" your views or risk being crucified in public by an angry mob.

What's funny is that we probably agree in many other aspects of the things that have been brought up, but because I dare to call it bullshit that you're conveniently heralding the enforcement of rules when it favors you and exempting yourself from them when it doesn't.. I get to be the test-run for your new little echo-chamber ruleset as you attempt to sick your new dogs on me, so to speak.

[viktirhale]

@Ajedi32 Yeah, that's why I suggested "edited" as an alternative to deletion. You made a couple good points, but if you want to participate in this discussion you're going to have to be civil about it. Comments like "go hang yourself" aren't constructive and don't help your case.

For the sake of good faith and discussion, I have chosen to strike out that portion and reword it into a more civil statement. I have elected to favor striking it out over outright deletion, for clarity/posterity of the discussion up to this point.. but am willing to remove it completely if that is preferred.

I would argue that all of my other statements/accusations are subjectively well outside the realm of "harassment" or any of the other listed "no-no's", if a little crass.

[viktirhale]

@Ajedi32 Yeah, that's why I suggested "edited" as an alternative to deletion. You made a couple good points, but if you want to participate in this discussion you're going to have to be civil about it. Comments like "go hang yourself" aren't constructive and don't help your case.

For the sake of good faith and discussion, I have chosen to strike out that portion and reword it into a more civil statement. I have elected to favor striking it out over outright deletion, for clarity/posterity of the discussion up to this point.. but am willing to remove it completely if that is preferred.

I would argue that all of my other statements/accusations are subjectively well outside the realm of "harassment" or any of the other listed "no-no's", if a little crass.

[Ajedi32]

@vais It's okay man, I get it. You came here to write code, not to be a moderator in a giant internet flame war.

FYI @adambeynon @meh @elia, if you guys need/want help I'd certainly be willing to come on as a temporary "collaborator" just to help keep things civil until the drama dies down. (E.g. Editing/deleting comments that contain personal attacks or blatant trolling.) Though I totally understand if you'd rather just handle this yourself.

[Ajedi32]

@vais It's okay man, I get it. You came here to write code, not to be a moderator in a giant internet flame war.

FYI @adambeynon @meh @elia, if you guys need/want help I'd certainly be willing to come on as a temporary "collaborator" just to help keep things civil until the drama dies down. (E.g. Editing/deleting comments that contain personal attacks or blatant trolling.) Though I totally understand if you'd rather just handle this yourself.

[meltheadorable]

So I take it from the silence here that y'all don't intend to enforce your code of conduct?

[meltheadorable]

So I take it from the silence here that y'all don't intend to enforce your code of conduct?

[handsomematt]

I hope they don't.

[handsomematt]

I hope they don't.

[meh]

@meltheadorable the pull request has been merged today, we internally haven't talked about how to proceed on it yet, just hold your stinking horses, it won't be long.

[meh]

@meltheadorable the pull request has been merged today, we internally haven't talked about how to proceed on it yet, just hold your stinking horses, it won't be long.

[meltheadorable]

@meh Yeah, I can see why you might be struggling with whether telling somebody to hang themselves is appropriate conduct for a github issue tracker. Sorry for not taking the harassment better.

[meltheadorable]

@meh Yeah, I can see why you might be struggling with whether telling somebody to hang themselves is appropriate conduct for a github issue tracker. Sorry for not taking the harassment better.

[meh]

@meltheadorable I'm not judging that, all I'm saying is we haven't decided who will take care of the moderation, and besides, there are still discussions going on the code of conduct itself.

Also it's the weekend, pushing us to be faster is not going to help us get things right.

[meh]

@meltheadorable I'm not judging that, all I'm saying is we haven't decided who will take care of the moderation, and besides, there are still discussions going on the code of conduct itself.

Also it's the weekend, pushing us to be faster is not going to help us get things right.

[dragonrobot]

you're all nerds B~)

[dragonrobot]

you're all nerds B~)

[atllllll]

@meltheadorable do you even code haha

[atllllll]

@meltheadorable do you even code haha

[strand]

@adambeynon I will update the PR. I am disappointed that you are unwilling to specify that the code applies outside of project spaces. I am concerned about the type of trolling behavior opal has attracted in the past few days spilling out into other spaces.

Would you be willing to chat either in videochat or IM about this?

[strand]

@adambeynon I will update the PR. I am disappointed that you are unwilling to specify that the code applies outside of project spaces. I am concerned about the type of trolling behavior opal has attracted in the past few days spilling out into other spaces.

Would you be willing to chat either in videochat or IM about this?

[strand]

@adambeynon Would you reopen this PR, or should I open a new one? This change meets your criteria.

[strand]

@adambeynon Would you reopen this PR, or should I open a new one? This change meets your criteria.

[shadowcat-mst]

@adambeynon the proposed language here came from a discussion with a number of people who wanted to clearly provide a means to -dissociate- public space comments - if it isn't clarified somehow, there's no way for somebody to be sure whether their comments will have the CoC applied when speaking externally somewhere anybody can -claim- they're associated with the project.

The goal of this language was to explicitly restrict where non-github spaces will be considered covered - I strongly suggest that some explicit restriction be added. See also my conversation with @sarciszewski who started off with similar misgivings but having checked the exact language we were proposing agreed that it would be a net win.

I continue to believe that without some such explicit restriction we risk seeing a repeat of the current debacle, and would request that you attempt to dialogue with @strand and I about how to achieve that rather than simply throwing the PR out entirely.

[shadowcat-mst]

@adambeynon the proposed language here came from a discussion with a number of people who wanted to clearly provide a means to -dissociate- public space comments - if it isn't clarified somehow, there's no way for somebody to be sure whether their comments will have the CoC applied when speaking externally somewhere anybody can -claim- they're associated with the project.

The goal of this language was to explicitly restrict where non-github spaces will be considered covered - I strongly suggest that some explicit restriction be added. See also my conversation with @sarciszewski who started off with similar misgivings but having checked the exact language we were proposing agreed that it would be a net win.

I continue to believe that without some such explicit restriction we risk seeing a repeat of the current debacle, and would request that you attempt to dialogue with @strand and I about how to achieve that rather than simply throwing the PR out entirely.

[jaen]

While I think off-project policing is not a good idea in general and CoC should be explicitly contained to official Opal channels (like github issues, Opal site, Opal twitter), if one would want to entertain such policy then I think while explicitly associates their presence there with Opal is a step in the right direction, it's still too vague.
I also feel this CoC as it is doesn't give equal protection to contributors and maintainers, which I think it should.

RE: first issue
For example @elia's tweets could fall under this wording as failing to adhere to CoC, since while the discussion in which the contentious opinion was spoken didn't mention Opal explicitly, his twitter bio mentions the project. Thus someone could construe an interpretation where @elia breaks CoC, while I think he should be free to be able to show what projects he is involved in as long as no direct association between non-CoC-compliant behaviour and Opal (which I feel having it in a sidebar, while the tweets are the meat of the issue is not).

Thus I think the term explicit association could use a more concrete definition limiting the scope of CoC violations off-project only to where one can show a direct link between the Opal project and CoC offence.
For example: an Opal presentation with a sexist remark in it would have a direct link between the project and violation, while a presenetation by an Opal contributor on something else entirely and without Opal being ever mentioned in the presentation making the exact same remark would have no direct link.
But that's just my opinion of course.

On a second thought though, this might also depend on the severity of offence - in case of a contentious opinion like we have here the association between the contributor's tweets and Opal being mentioned in his twitter bio should not even be an issue, but when the contributor would be involved in persistent harassment (and by that I mean proper harassment not SJW definition of it by having a different opinion) off-project and be associated with the project, then this association would be actively hurtful to Opal's desire to welcome all contributors.

RE: second issue
I feel that as much as new contributors should be made to feel welcome in the project regardless of where they are coming from, maintainers and existing contributors should also not have to feel threatened each time someone decides he has a beef with what the contributor said online and brings along a witch hunt. I think a good CoC should make an explicit point of being fair for both sides and keep it's judgements just, not to the taste of whoever yells the loudest.

[jaen]

While I think off-project policing is not a good idea in general and CoC should be explicitly contained to official Opal channels (like github issues, Opal site, Opal twitter), if one would want to entertain such policy then I think while explicitly associates their presence there with Opal is a step in the right direction, it's still too vague.
I also feel this CoC as it is doesn't give equal protection to contributors and maintainers, which I think it should.

RE: first issue
For example @elia's tweets could fall under this wording as failing to adhere to CoC, since while the discussion in which the contentious opinion was spoken didn't mention Opal explicitly, his twitter bio mentions the project. Thus someone could construe an interpretation where @elia breaks CoC, while I think he should be free to be able to show what projects he is involved in as long as no direct association between non-CoC-compliant behaviour and Opal (which I feel having it in a sidebar, while the tweets are the meat of the issue is not).

Thus I think the term explicit association could use a more concrete definition limiting the scope of CoC violations off-project only to where one can show a direct link between the Opal project and CoC offence.
For example: an Opal presentation with a sexist remark in it would have a direct link between the project and violation, while a presenetation by an Opal contributor on something else entirely and without Opal being ever mentioned in the presentation making the exact same remark would have no direct link.
But that's just my opinion of course.

On a second thought though, this might also depend on the severity of offence - in case of a contentious opinion like we have here the association between the contributor's tweets and Opal being mentioned in his twitter bio should not even be an issue, but when the contributor would be involved in persistent harassment (and by that I mean proper harassment not SJW definition of it by having a different opinion) off-project and be associated with the project, then this association would be actively hurtful to Opal's desire to welcome all contributors.

RE: second issue
I feel that as much as new contributors should be made to feel welcome in the project regardless of where they are coming from, maintainers and existing contributors should also not have to feel threatened each time someone decides he has a beef with what the contributor said online and brings along a witch hunt. I think a good CoC should make an explicit point of being fair for both sides and keep it's judgements just, not to the taste of whoever yells the loudest.

[adambeynon]

Reopening for on going discussion.

[adambeynon]

Reopening for on going discussion.

[strand]

Currently this adds ethnicity to a list in the third paragraph, and retains version 1.0.0. The title is now out-of date has been updated to reflect this.

@adambeynon Will you chat with me on IM or videochat? I think that finding language that you are comfortable with to make responding to harassment that happens on other forums is vital to earning back trust in open source communities..

[strand]

Currently this adds ethnicity to a list in the third paragraph, and retains version 1.0.0. The title is now out-of date has been updated to reflect this.

@adambeynon Will you chat with me on IM or videochat? I think that finding language that you are comfortable with to make responding to harassment that happens on other forums is vital to earning back trust in open source communities..

[hednoiz]

With all the protests in the streets the LGBT does in the nude, you'd think they'd have thicker skin than to take "go hang yourself" online as harassment. I know some of you may of had your balls removed, but metaphorically speaking c'mon -- let's be adults first and foremost, grow the fuck up pls. Noone cares about your sexuality within the confines of the project -- you're harming the project more by raising these issues, now if @elia or anyone for that matter posts on the tracker or anywhere representing of said project with their views, or if you want to spout your pro-lgbt shit on the tracker or anywhere representing of said project with your views -- they should be dealt with accordingly.

[hednoiz]

With all the protests in the streets the LGBT does in the nude, you'd think they'd have thicker skin than to take "go hang yourself" online as harassment. I know some of you may of had your balls removed, but metaphorically speaking c'mon -- let's be adults first and foremost, grow the fuck up pls. Noone cares about your sexuality within the confines of the project -- you're harming the project more by raising these issues, now if @elia or anyone for that matter posts on the tracker or anywhere representing of said project with their views, or if you want to spout your pro-lgbt shit on the tracker or anywhere representing of said project with your views -- they should be dealt with accordingly.

[domgetter]

@strand "vital to earning back trust"

What trust was "lost" in this exchange?

[domgetter]

@strand "vital to earning back trust"

What trust was "lost" in this exchange?

[shadowcat-mst]

@adambeynon @meh @elia can one of you please nuke hednoiz for ... well, honestly, I'd nuke him for being a fucking unconstructive troll attempting to provoke deliberate offence and thereby derail the conversation, CoC or not, but I tend towards the bofh on such moderation decisions and you can take what option you like for what reason you like - it's your house after all

[shadowcat-mst]

@adambeynon @meh @elia can one of you please nuke hednoiz for ... well, honestly, I'd nuke him for being a fucking unconstructive troll attempting to provoke deliberate offence and thereby derail the conversation, CoC or not, but I tend towards the bofh on such moderation decisions and you can take what option you like for what reason you like - it's your house after all

[shadowcat-mst]

@domgetter adding scare quotes makes your intention to make a political point rather than ask a genuine question clear. If you want to find some SJWs to pick a pointless fight with, I'm sure you can find them somewhere we're not trying to achieve something useful.

[shadowcat-mst]

@domgetter adding scare quotes makes your intention to make a political point rather than ask a genuine question clear. If you want to find some SJWs to pick a pointless fight with, I'm sure you can find them somewhere we're not trying to achieve something useful.

[Cephel]

we're not trying to achieve something useful.

Truer words have never been spoken

[Cephel]

we're not trying to achieve something useful.

Truer words have never been spoken

[strand]

@adambeynon There's a lot of noise in this thread. It's hard to tell, have you been deleting any of the trolling comments?

[strand]

@adambeynon There's a lot of noise in this thread. It's hard to tell, have you been deleting any of the trolling comments?

[jaen]

@Cephel
I actually do think this work is useful.
If there has to be a CoC in place - and it seems there has, because otherwise we apparently can't seem to trust people to be reasonable - getting it's wording just right so that it protects both the welcoming atmosphere maintainers seem to want Opal to be projecting as well as the integrity of the project against outside attacks for perceived slights.
If a CoC wording that ensures fairness if both cases can be arrived at I think it's a net win over no CoC in the face of that you can't expect people to be reasonable otherwise.

[jaen]

@Cephel
I actually do think this work is useful.
If there has to be a CoC in place - and it seems there has, because otherwise we apparently can't seem to trust people to be reasonable - getting it's wording just right so that it protects both the welcoming atmosphere maintainers seem to want Opal to be projecting as well as the integrity of the project against outside attacks for perceived slights.
If a CoC wording that ensures fairness if both cases can be arrived at I think it's a net win over no CoC in the face of that you can't expect people to be reasonable otherwise.

[domgetter]

@shadowcat-mst Refusing to answer my question doesn't put you in the right. It betrays your lack of a solid position. So I ask again, what trust was lost?

[domgetter]

@shadowcat-mst Refusing to answer my question doesn't put you in the right. It betrays your lack of a solid position. So I ask again, what trust was lost?

[adambeynon]

@strand no, I haven't deleted anything. I'm stuck using a mobile most of this weekend so reading, or interacting with these threads isn't overly easy. Trying to keep up as much as I can though.

[adambeynon]

@strand no, I haven't deleted anything. I'm stuck using a mobile most of this weekend so reading, or interacting with these threads isn't overly easy. Trying to keep up as much as I can though.

[webmaven]

Why remove the public spaces clause that was suggested by @shadowcat-mst?

[webmaven]

Why remove the public spaces clause that was suggested by @shadowcat-mst?

[strand]

@webmaven I want to keep this clause in, but @adambeynon wasn't comfortable with this clause.

[shadowcat-mst]

@webmaven however the PR was re-opened to attempt to continue a discussion on what wording would work out, and I can totally understand that if @adambeynon is stuck on mobile he won't have been able to follow the full conversation that led to it which means he may have interpreted in the context of the Contributor Covenant update which looked to many people like an attack whereas I'm explicitly aiming for a clarification (I -still- think we'd've been better with @meltheadorable's version given the code we've adopted was written by the original complainant, which is a trivial excuse for the trolls to yell "bad faith" even more than they already are, but I think that ship has sailed).

@strand and I appear to be sufficiently masochistic to keep going either way though - although:

@adambeynon, maybe it'd be easier if we left this PR to just include the ethnicity wording and opened an issue on monday to discuss the public/private/linking/etc. stuff and turned that into a PR once we've thrashed it out? If you're not going to be able to really think/act until then anyway, it might be more productive all round.

[shadowcat-mst]

@webmaven however the PR was re-opened to attempt to continue a discussion on what wording would work out, and I can totally understand that if @adambeynon is stuck on mobile he won't have been able to follow the full conversation that led to it which means he may have interpreted in the context of the Contributor Covenant update which looked to many people like an attack whereas I'm explicitly aiming for a clarification (I -still- think we'd've been better with @meltheadorable's version given the code we've adopted was written by the original complainant, which is a trivial excuse for the trolls to yell "bad faith" even more than they already are, but I think that ship has sailed).

@strand and I appear to be sufficiently masochistic to keep going either way though - although:

@adambeynon, maybe it'd be easier if we left this PR to just include the ethnicity wording and opened an issue on monday to discuss the public/private/linking/etc. stuff and turned that into a PR once we've thrashed it out? If you're not going to be able to really think/act until then anyway, it might be more productive all round.

[Ajedi32]

Yeah, given the volume of discussion going on here, I think it's probably best to break these threads down into separate issues as much as possible.

Let's merge this PR as-is (with just the added part about ethnicity and fixed link), then move the discussions about association with Opal to another thread. (And if anyone's still interested in debating/discussing whether a CoC is even needed in the first place, let's open another issue for that too instead of mashing all these separate topics into one.)

[Ajedi32]

Yeah, given the volume of discussion going on here, I think it's probably best to break these threads down into separate issues as much as possible.

Let's merge this PR as-is (with just the added part about ethnicity and fixed link), then move the discussions about association with Opal to another thread. (And if anyone's still interested in debating/discussing whether a CoC is even needed in the first place, let's open another issue for that too instead of mashing all these separate topics into one.)

[strand]

@Ajedi32 I believe the "no code of conduct" vantage was discussed and rejected with #952.

[strand]

@Ajedi32 I believe the "no code of conduct" vantage was discussed and rejected with #952.

[shadowcat-mst]

@strand @Ajedi32 on the other hand, if there are people who still think that further discussion of it is necessary to truth and justice in the world, I'd much rather they went and did so in a separate thread

[shadowcat-mst]

@strand @Ajedi32 on the other hand, if there are people who still think that further discussion of it is necessary to truth and justice in the world, I'd much rather they went and did so in a separate thread

[bright1eyes]

would it be possible to add "political ideology" to this list as well? people shouldn't be harassed on that aspect either.

[TheReverend403]

As long as it's the right political ideology.

[bright1eyes]

Not sure if you're trolling here. But to clarify what I meant: My suggestion is meant to cover hateful speech like "Republicans are evil", "The Social Justice movement is evil."

Just like people shouldn't bring up one's race, gender, etc. when discussing their code, people shouldn't bring up one's political ideology, and certainly not harass them on any of those aspects. Open source projects should welcome people regardless of their race, gender, political ideology, etc.

[strand]

I believe "political affiliation" would be a more neutral term.

[bright1eyes]

I'm ok with that. (I didn't grow up speaking English, sorry if I should have used different words here.)

[TheReverend403]

Just like people shouldn't bring up one's race, gender, etc. when discussing their code, people shouldn't bring up one's political ideology, and certainly not harass them on any of those aspects. Open source projects should welcome people regardless of their race, gender, political ideology, etc.

I've literally never seen this happen. If you would like to point to specific instances, you're more than welcome.

All I see here is people with a solution to a problem that simply doesn't exist.

[Ajedi32]

@TheReverend403 Well, it's actually happened a few times here since this drama started, but I don't think I've ever seen any instances before that. GitHub issues tend to be focused on code, not people.

For this reason, I think I actually agree that a CoC is unnecessary. On the other hand though, I don't really see it doing any harm either as long as we word it correctly, so I'm not really opposed to the idea either.

If you disagree, feel free to open a separate issue for this so that those who want to make the case that a CoC is actively harmful can do so without disrupting existing discussion over the wording of the CoC we already have.

[TheReverend403]

If you disagree, feel free to open a separate issue for this so that those who want to make the case that a CoC is actively harmful can do so without disrupting existing discussion over the wording of the CoC we already have.

I don't think it's harmful at all, if people want to have a CoC, they should have one, no matter how pointless it is. What I take issue with is people wasting developer time with frivolous issues that simply don't exist.

You also pretty much hit the nail on the head with

Well, it's actually happened a few times here since this drama started, but I don't think I've ever seen any instances before that.

These same people who go around calling everything "problematic" and "offensive" are the ones causing the problem in the first place by bringing their gender politics into a place it's not needed or wanted.

[Ajedi32]

So you don't think a CoC is harmful, just unnecessary? Yeah, that's pretty much where I stand on this too.

That said, regardless of whether it's necessary or not, there's a pretty significant number of people here who seem to want a CoC. So either we waste a bunch of time creating one, or waste a bunch of time arguing against creating one. Given that I have no strong aversion to the idea of a CoC, I'll go with the former option.

Again, if you think otherwise, open another issue about it so we don't clutter this discussion on the wording of the CoC with a bunch of noise.

[sarciszewski]

So you don't think a CoC is harmful, just unnecessary? Yeah, that's pretty much where I stand on this too.

A purely agenda-driven CoC could very easily be harmful in theory. However, the one as currently written has been balanced by feedback from the Opal maintainers and open source community. I don't see much room for harm from it (or maybe I'm not malicious/creative enough?).

[TheReverend403]

@lesley2015 probably for the same reason you're here pushing your agenda.

[TheReverend403]

@lesley2015 probably for the same reason you're here pushing your agenda.

[sarciszewski]

@lesley2015 You may be entitled to your opinion, i.e.

many of the transgendered men (trans women) nowadays still have their penis intact. They are literally men in dresses.

and

(Trans women who have had their penis surgically removed are, of course, cockless men -- not women.)

but this is hardly the most appropriate place to express it. The topic for discussion is what the CoC should say, not whether or not trans* people are real [whatever they identify as here]. And as I've said elsewhere, being one thing or the other doesn't change the fact that they are still people who deserve the same rights and dignity as any other human.

So, please, cease with this vein of discussion.

[sarciszewski]

@lesley2015 You may be entitled to your opinion, i.e.

many of the transgendered men (trans women) nowadays still have their penis intact. They are literally men in dresses.

and

(Trans women who have had their penis surgically removed are, of course, cockless men -- not women.)

but this is hardly the most appropriate place to express it. The topic for discussion is what the CoC should say, not whether or not trans* people are real [whatever they identify as here]. And as I've said elsewhere, being one thing or the other doesn't change the fact that they are still people who deserve the same rights and dignity as any other human.

So, please, cease with this vein of discussion.

[strand]

I am closing this pull request because of the Opal maintainers' demonstrated neglect in moderating the ongoing trolling activity happening on this thread and throughout their project.

@adambeynon If you would like to chat about how you can foster a kind, inclusive, cooperative, and harassment-free community, I would be happy to chat with you. My email address is strand@bettermistak.es.

[strand]

I am closing this pull request because of the Opal maintainers' demonstrated neglect in moderating the ongoing trolling activity happening on this thread and throughout their project.

@adambeynon If you would like to chat about how you can foster a kind, inclusive, cooperative, and harassment-free community, I would be happy to chat with you. My email address is strand@bettermistak.es.

[shadowcat-mst]

@adambeynon @sarciszewski @jaen @webmaven I stand by my intention to continue this conversation on monday; @strand might not be able to recognise "the only person with moderation powers who hasn't been screamed at until they've switched to avoiding the threads entirely is on mobile only this weekend" for what it is, but I can - plus you lot are clearly attempting to be productive and it's not like the remaining trolls are difficult to spot.

We'll get there. Eventually.

[shadowcat-mst]

@adambeynon @sarciszewski @jaen @webmaven I stand by my intention to continue this conversation on monday; @strand might not be able to recognise "the only person with moderation powers who hasn't been screamed at until they've switched to avoiding the threads entirely is on mobile only this weekend" for what it is, but I can - plus you lot are clearly attempting to be productive and it's not like the remaining trolls are difficult to spot.

We'll get there. Eventually.

[jaen]

@shadowcat-mst quite agreed.
You can spot trolls like lesley2015 or krainboltgreene right away (and I'm honestly surprised the former didn't get Github's banhammer considering at least a couple people must have reported her, including me), but even if you can easily spot them and preferably ignore, it's still disruptive.

So I think pausing the discussion for a couple of days (even maybe for a bit longer than just until monday) so that people can be less emotional about it - as for example strand clearly is here - is probably the right call - was about to suggest the same just before adambeynon closed the other thread.

I'll probably hang around to see if a language that either entirely separates concerns about off-project behaviour from CoC entirely or at least clearly delineates what off-project behaviour that might be relevant to CoC and protects strictly from abuse while not letting a mob pressure for an interpretation to punish a mere polite difference in opinion can be arrived at.

Because while no CoC is preferable to having one in my eyes (provided people behave reasonably, which it turns out it can be quite a bit to ask for), I can quite see the merit of a project having official guidelines it can fall back on how to punish someone who explicitly keeps being a dick to others like lesley2015 is doing now and when to say they don't police different opinions, provided they are expressed politely and not disruptive to the project (as I feel elia's case should be handled, outrage notwithstanding).

[jaen]

@shadowcat-mst quite agreed.
You can spot trolls like lesley2015 or krainboltgreene right away (and I'm honestly surprised the former didn't get Github's banhammer considering at least a couple people must have reported her, including me), but even if you can easily spot them and preferably ignore, it's still disruptive.

So I think pausing the discussion for a couple of days (even maybe for a bit longer than just until monday) so that people can be less emotional about it - as for example strand clearly is here - is probably the right call - was about to suggest the same just before adambeynon closed the other thread.

I'll probably hang around to see if a language that either entirely separates concerns about off-project behaviour from CoC entirely or at least clearly delineates what off-project behaviour that might be relevant to CoC and protects strictly from abuse while not letting a mob pressure for an interpretation to punish a mere polite difference in opinion can be arrived at.

Because while no CoC is preferable to having one in my eyes (provided people behave reasonably, which it turns out it can be quite a bit to ask for), I can quite see the merit of a project having official guidelines it can fall back on how to punish someone who explicitly keeps being a dick to others like lesley2015 is doing now and when to say they don't police different opinions, provided they are expressed politely and not disruptive to the project (as I feel elia's case should be handled, outrage notwithstanding).

[adambeynon]

@strand @shadowcat-mst - I would like to continue this conversation. This thread has also started to descend the same way the others did, so I need to make my way through them all to remove a lot of comments. It's unfortunate I wasn't fully available all weekend, but thats the way it was.

@strand In one way, having a few days away gave me time to look over the original proposed changes, and in reflection I think the language around comments made outside the project are something that should be merged in.

[adambeynon]

@strand @shadowcat-mst - I would like to continue this conversation. This thread has also started to descend the same way the others did, so I need to make my way through them all to remove a lot of comments. It's unfortunate I wasn't fully available all weekend, but thats the way it was.

@strand In one way, having a few days away gave me time to look over the original proposed changes, and in reflection I think the language around comments made outside the project are something that should be merged in.

[jacqueline-homan]

@adambeynon @jaen @strand @shadowcat-mst , I am not keen on a CoC. And it's not because I don't sympathize with transgendered people. Quite the contrary. There are a few in the human trafficking survivors' rights movement, of which I am a very active member. What I have a problem with is the fact that too often, I have seen CoC's adopted only to later be used as a weapon of convenience—and often against the very same marginalized people that the CoC was intended to protect. Unintended consequences are a thing. So I hope that you will take that into consideration before deciding one way or the other in this matter.

[jacqueline-homan]

@adambeynon @jaen @strand @shadowcat-mst , I am not keen on a CoC. And it's not because I don't sympathize with transgendered people. Quite the contrary. There are a few in the human trafficking survivors' rights movement, of which I am a very active member. What I have a problem with is the fact that too often, I have seen CoC's adopted only to later be used as a weapon of convenience—and often against the very same marginalized people that the CoC was intended to protect. Unintended consequences are a thing. So I hope that you will take that into consideration before deciding one way or the other in this matter.

[domgetter]

@jacqueline-homan They could just adopt it and internally pledge to never actually enforce it since no one in the project ever does anything inappropriate anyway.

[domgetter]

@jacqueline-homan They could just adopt it and internally pledge to never actually enforce it since no one in the project ever does anything inappropriate anyway.

[jacqueline-homan]

@domgetter , You raise a good point. The total bullying and browbeating that I saw from several people that were promoting the CoC for Opal that I felt was totally unnecessary. I've never been asked about my personal life when on any code repo here on Github. The only thing that kept me from being a lot more active on any repos on Github was my lack of coding confidence.

[jacqueline-homan]

@domgetter , You raise a good point. The total bullying and browbeating that I saw from several people that were promoting the CoC for Opal that I felt was totally unnecessary. I've never been asked about my personal life when on any code repo here on Github. The only thing that kept me from being a lot more active on any repos on Github was my lack of coding confidence.

[jacqueline-homan]

@lesley2015 , The issue at hand, I believe, is that IT is "the problem-solving industry"—not the "political debating industry" or the "drama creating industry." Most here just want the problem solved and not be bullied or professionally blacklisted, and go back to writing code. A very good solution or two was proposed above by @domgetter and @jaen .

[jacqueline-homan]

@lesley2015 , The issue at hand, I believe, is that IT is "the problem-solving industry"—not the "political debating industry" or the "drama creating industry." Most here just want the problem solved and not be bullied or professionally blacklisted, and go back to writing code. A very good solution or two was proposed above by @domgetter and @jaen .

[jaen]

@lesley2015 I usually use male pronouns unless I can obviously tell someone is not (which is of course easier when you have declension in your mother tongue) which I couldn't with you.
Sorry for that, fixed the previous post and I'll keep your gender in mind in case I ever again need a pronoun to refer to you.

I do stand by the "troll" label though, the way you phrase yourself in this issue (and previous ones) is nothing short of trollish an counter-productive and you keep doing that even after being called out on it a few times.

@jacqueline-homan I do agree a poorly worded CoC can be as much a weapon as a shield and having people act in a reasonable manner would be best, but as you can see here without a CoC people think they have the right to social-force people into submission when they feel offended.
So I think if there's a possibility to get an even-handed CoC that both protects the project atmosphere from harassment and is a shield from browbeating on any perceived slight, it's probably a net win over having no CoC to fall back to in such cases.

[jaen]

@lesley2015 I usually use male pronouns unless I can obviously tell someone is not (which is of course easier when you have declension in your mother tongue) which I couldn't with you.
Sorry for that, fixed the previous post and I'll keep your gender in mind in case I ever again need a pronoun to refer to you.

I do stand by the "troll" label though, the way you phrase yourself in this issue (and previous ones) is nothing short of trollish an counter-productive and you keep doing that even after being called out on it a few times.

@jacqueline-homan I do agree a poorly worded CoC can be as much a weapon as a shield and having people act in a reasonable manner would be best, but as you can see here without a CoC people think they have the right to social-force people into submission when they feel offended.
So I think if there's a possibility to get an even-handed CoC that both protects the project atmosphere from harassment and is a shield from browbeating on any perceived slight, it's probably a net win over having no CoC to fall back to in such cases.

[jacqueline-homan]

@jaen 👍

I do agree a poorly worded CoC can be as much a weapon as a shield and having people act in a reasonable manner would be best, but as you can see here without a CoC people think they have the right to social-force people into submission when they feel offended.
So I think if there's a possibility to get an even-handed CoC that both protects the project atmosphere from harassment and is a shield from browbeating on any perceived slight, it's probably a net win over having no CoC to fall back to in such cases.

I can't disagree with that.

[jacqueline-homan]

@jaen 👍

I do agree a poorly worded CoC can be as much a weapon as a shield and having people act in a reasonable manner would be best, but as you can see here without a CoC people think they have the right to social-force people into submission when they feel offended.
So I think if there's a possibility to get an even-handed CoC that both protects the project atmosphere from harassment and is a shield from browbeating on any perceived slight, it's probably a net win over having no CoC to fall back to in such cases.

I can't disagree with that.