Pedestrian Crossing defaults with crossing=zebra

[DaveF63]

Hi
Pedestrian Crossing defaults with crossing=zebra. This is incorrect tagging. It should be crossing_ref.

As it's predominantly a UK classification I'm uncertain it should even be a default.

[bhousel]

Honest question: is there a difference between:
crossing=zebra
and
crossing=uncontrolled + crossing_ref=zebra

They seem the same to me.. I really don't see the point of crossing_ref.

[DaveF63]

Zebra is (mainly) a UK nickname** . Think of it like alt_name or loc_name. I'm sure there are more types of uncontrolled*** crossing around the world than just black & white markings.

** A Toucan crossing for bikes & walkers is a play on words, as in 'Two can' cross.

*** Not really the proper place to discuss this, but I don't see zebras as uncontrolled. In the UK at least the pedestrian at the kerb acts as a control in the same way a red traffic light would do.

[bhousel]

Zebra is (mainly) a UK nickname. Think of it like alt_name or loc_name

Nope. crossing= is the key that says "a crossing is here", and crossing_ref= is the "alt name". The value for crossing says what kind of a crossing it is. That's really the only way that makes any coherent sense, and falls in line with how other tags in OSM work. It's very unfortunate that the values for crossing are a mess.

but I don't see zebras as uncontrolled.

I agree 100%

Not really the proper place to discuss this

Right here is the only place where I will discuss this. If you were going to suggest moving the discussion to the wiki or to the tagging mailing list, forget it. I'm done with those.

[DaveF63]

Nope. crossing= is the key that says "a crossing is here", and crossing_ref= is the "alt name".

Yes. That's precisely what I'm saying: crossing_ref should contain the alt_names of Zebra or Pelican etc.

It's very unfortunate that the values for crossing are a mess.

It isn't helped by Mapnik not rendering stand alone crossings, which encourages the addition of the incorrect tag of highway=traffic_signals

[bhousel]

So let's decide on something that makes sense. Unfortunately whatever we pick will be bucking the current tagging trends.

Here are how the crossing=* values look currently in taginfo:

value	count	%
uncontrolled	386 125	42.19%
traffic_signals	319 433	34.90%
zebra	102 719	11.22%
unmarked	53 309	5.83%
island	33 589	3.67%
no	5 432	0.59%
unknown	2 456	0.27%
yes	2 190	0.24%
pelican	1 597	0.17%
island;uncontrolled	1 594	0.17%
marked	1 201	0.13%
toucan	1 188	0.13%
controlled	462	0.05%
island;traffic_signals	447	0.05%
traffic_signals;island	397	0.04%
uncontrolled;island	330	0.04%
traffic_lights	293	0.03%

[manfredbrandl]

I looked at taginfo again and found that zebra was trending the last 21 hours:

value	count	%	new count	added count
uncontrolled	386125	42.19%	386278	153
traffic_signals	319433	34.90%	319584	151
zebra	102719	11.22%	102939	220
unmarked	53309	5.83%	53326	17
island	33589	3.67%	33616	27

uncontrolled and traffic_signals are at least three times in numbers of zebra, but zebra was most added in the last 21 hours.

[DaveF63]

@bhousel
IMO, Zebra, Pelican, Toucan (& Puffin) should be used with crossing_ref (as per the wiki). The last three are light controlled so should be combined with crossing=traffic_signals. As I said above, I believe Zebra should be combined with crossing=controlled, but I'm unsure I could win that argument.
To me an uncontrolled crossing is where there's no markings just a dropped kerb for push chairs & some tactile paving for the blind.

@manfredbrandl
Were they added in the UK?
Could you do a similar comparison for crossing_ref which, at 171 954 for zebra, is more popular, similar for pelican.

I'm intrigued how you did the time comparison. Was it via the webpage or a direct api call?

[bhousel]

@DaveF63 It sounds like we are mostly in agreement.

My personal preference would be crossing= to support marked / unmarked, and crossing_ref= would be a dropdown of the common types of markings. But I don't think I would win that argument either.

"controlled" is too Dept of Transportation jargony. Most people don't know what it means. You and I agree that marked crosswalks are controlling, in that cars legally need to stop at them, but the very first example here suggests otherwise.

[manfredbrandl]

@DaveF63
I dont know if these were added in UK? I simply compared the 21 hour older table from @bhousel with the current one.
As I am from Austria and speak german I have to add that "zebra" reads for german-speaking-people like "Zebrastreifen" alias "zebrastrip" which means distinctive white stripes on the road. Cars have to stop if you are crossing there by feet and (at least in Austria) you are not allowed to cross the road somewhere else if a "Zebrastreifen" is within 25 Meters.

@bhousel
I did not like the wiki when I tried to suggest a new value for man_made (=guy_wire).
Is there a chance that the community gets a reliable source for recommende tagging including discussion/decision of changes?

[bhousel]

Can I close this issue by making the crosswalk preset:
crossing=marked + crossing_ref=zebra
?

[bhousel]

Closing as stale. This is a problem with OSM tagging, not an iD issue.

crossing=zebra isn't perfect but it's better than the alternatives in widespread use.

[d1g]

This is a problem with OSM tagging, not an iD issue.

@bhousel this is problem of OSM database, since previous classification uncontrolled/traffic_signals/unmarked/no is now screwed by undefined tag crossing=zebra.

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/keys/crossing
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/tags/crossing=zebra

crossing=zebra is only entered because of incorrect iD presets..

[d1g]

crossing=zebra
and
crossing=uncontrolled + crossing_ref=zebra

They seem the same to me.. I really don't see the point of crossing_ref.

@bhousel, yes please read http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Approved_features/Road_crossings#Usage VERY carefully

because crossing=uncontrolled + crossing_ref=pegasus

is not crossing=zebra

Key crossing= only defined 3 classes in 2008: "where type could be traffic_signals, no or uncontrolled (the default)".

If you ignore 3.73% of crossing=zebra tags, Russian db is relatively close to 2008 proposal:

uncontrolled, 37988, 52.63%
traffic_signals, 27688, 38.36%
unmarked, 2776, 3.85%
no, 515, 0.71%

[bhousel]

crossing=zebra is only entered because of incorrect iD presets..

This is simply not true. The values in the database are what they are, and they have been that way since long before iD came around.