Smaller Espruino board? #4125
Replies: 1 comment
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Posted at 2014-07-23 by @gfwilliams Yes, there are plans :) I started the design 3-4 months ago, but it's been delayed quite a bit! The board is 0.1" thinner than the Teensy so the pinout's got to be chosen to make the tracking easy. I actually ordered some prototype PCBs last night, so hopefully I'll have some working hardware in 2 weeks or so. Rough specs are:
I'm quite excited about it. It should be a lot easier to include in things and much easier to breadboard with... Posted at 2014-07-23 by Sacha Hi Gordon, Fantastic news. A little bit more memory too ? Do you accept preorders ? ;-) Sacha Posted at 2014-07-23 by @gfwilliams @sacha, yes - it's looking like it'll have 64kB instead of 48. I was considering an even higher spec, but really the plan is to get the cost down as much as possible so it becomes more of an impulse purchase :) I will almost certainly KickStart this one again as the last one brought in so much publicity - I'll definitely let everyone know on the forum/twitter/etc when it goes up! Posted at 2014-07-23 by Sacha Perfect. Posted at 2014-07-23 by possmann on-board wifi would be nice :-) Posted at 2014-07-23 by @gfwilliams @possmann - that's not going to happen I'm afraid. It's so small there's barely enough room to get the required components in! It'll be pretty easy to stick the Adafruit Wifi dongle on though. You should be able to solder it straight on. Posted at 2014-07-23 by possmann it was just a small dream imagination :-) at the moment, i'm a little bit spoiled by the spark core. so just ignore my illusions ... ;-) Posted at 2014-07-23 by JumJum @gfwilliams, could you please give some more information to this BTW, does anybody have some experience with HLK-RM04 Serial Port-Ethernet-Wi-Fi Adapter Posted at 2014-07-23 by DrAzzy This is exciting - I'm amazed at how tiny the new board will be - ~1.4 x 0.6 inch. So 28 GPIO pins? Is it settled yet what kind of capabilities those pins will have (ie, how many I2C, hardware SPI, PWM, etc)? I assume that would be determined when the chip is selected. Will it have a builtin MicroSD reader? Also, what does a "Printed" usb connector mean? Posted at 2014-07-23 by d0773d @gfwilliams, awesome news! I can't wait until its available for purchase. Do you have an estimate time frame when you will be alerting us when the kickstarter goes live? Posted at 2014-07-24 by @gfwilliams @jumjum - I'll be trying to add support for different pins for WiFi (and every GPIO on the new board is 5v tolerant), so you should be able to solder the CC3000 on anywhere as long as you wire up gnd + vcc. I just mean the standard Adafruit module. On the existing board, the pinout was arranged such that you can solder the CC3000 straight on with only 2 extra wires needed - gnd + vcc. @drazzy the chip is the F401, so it's 3 SPI, 3 I2C, 2 Serial, ~8 analog in, and PWM on almost every pin. By printed USB, I just mean something like the DigiSpark. It's not fantastic, but it makes the board really thin, doesn't need a cable, and it won't ever snap off :) It also means you'll be able to just push it into a mains adaptor/battery pack for power. No built-in Micro SD I'm afraid - you'd have to solder something on for that. @d0773d - I don't know about timings yet... I guess when I get the first prototype back and assemble it I'll have more of an idea. I'd hoped for the beginning of September, but everything has gone a lot more slowly than I'd expected so I doubt I'll manage that now. Maybe mid-september. Posted at 2014-07-24 by gnz Great news!! Posted at 2014-09-03 by @joakim @gfwilliams How's it going with the smaller board? How many pins will it have? Is it too early to say something about its price? I really like the prospect of a tiny "plug-and-play" Espruino board. I think a printed USB connector is a great idea, and the smaller form factor is perfect for a couple of projects I have planned. If one still wants a board on a wire (like a drunk in a midnight choir?), one could always use an extension USB cable.. I see no downsides to this, and plenty of advantages! Posted at 2014-09-04 by @gfwilliams So what's below is what I have so far. You'll have to excuse the soldering - 0403 parts are a bit tricky :) It's got:
It's got pretty much every pin brought out but having played with it I'm reconsidering that now... If you imagine that there were just the two strips of pins down the edges it could be made almost 1cm shorter - and if you're using protoboard then the pins going across are effectively useless anyway. As far as price, I haven't costed it up fully but it's designed to be easier to manufacture than the Espruino board. I'm aiming for something around £15 each on the KickStarter, maybe a bit more afterwards (as distributors need their cut too). I totally miscalculated the US suggested retail price of the original Espruino board (sales tax is added afterwards in the US) so distributors are making a much higher margin there. Hopefully I'll get it right with this new board and it'll compete more sensibly with the Arduino Micro. Attachments: Posted at 2014-09-04 by user7114
In the US, unless PUR3 has a "brick and motar" location in the state(51 states) then you can charge the going sales tax. The sales tax varies between state to state. There is no sales tax charged to the individual buying an Espruino from the UK! Posted at 2014-09-04 by @gfwilliams @user7114 thanks! That's good to know... strange arrangement though - so it's cheaper to buy from Adafruit anywhere other than New York? Posted at 2014-09-04 by user7114 You got it! - "spot-on" BTW ... Better yet, directly sell through Tindie.com Posted at 2014-09-04 by @joakim @gfwilliams That looks really nice! (Not your soldering, understandably, but the board overall.) Thanks for the detailed answer. Really looking forward to holding one some day. I'm not sure which is most important, 1 cm smaller or 12 more pins.. It would be small enough for my needs if it was like in the photo. Posted at 2014-09-04 by user7114 I am curious about the number of insertions/retractions on the "gold fingers" before Posted at 2014-09-04 by DrAzzy Sexy sexy sexy! I am in favor of 12 extra pins over a 1cm board size reduction - without those pins, you'd have what? 16 GPIO pins? That's just not enough, imo (*). Are those 4 holes near the USB connector breakouts for the USB pins? I don't see those being very useful for most people (assuming there's an accessible GND/vbat somewhere). For someone stuffing the board into a solderless breadboard or perf board, maybe it would make sense to ensure that those middle pins would be the ones for use with WiFi/Ethernet modules - I'm envisioning the pins being put facing the opposite way in those holes, so the WiFi module could ride on top of the EspruinoMini as it sat in the perf board... That'd be neat, for sure. The internet sales tax gravy train is gonna end sooner or later. It's thanks only to political gridlock that they haven't closed that loophole already.
Posted at 2014-09-05 by @gfwilliams @user7114 - lots of insertions. The nice thing about the USB connectors is that all the sprung contacts are in the socket, so you really can get away with something very simple for the plug. If you look at those tiny WiFi/bluetooth USB donges, they do something very similar as well. @drazzy / @joakim Thanks for the feedback about the pins...
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the power supply. I've kept the same as the original Espruino (minus the fuse), but I think it's overkill. Effectively it means you have pins for:
Personally I think that's too much, and a little confusing... I think a lot of people expect a little board like this to just have Vin, and maybe 3.3v out. I guess one cool side effect is that I've connected the FET to a GPIO, so if you're running Espruino from USB you actually get one powered output for free, which you could use for speakers/relays/etc. Posted at 2014-09-05 by bobricius hi, I designed small board with newest stm32f072cb crystall less usb, integrated all usb resistor I have tested one board, working dfu usb bootloader :-) Posted at 2014-09-05 by DrAzzy
On the topic of power, I don't suppose there's space for pads for a MAX155x (SOT-23-5)? You expressed interest in this last time it was brought up, and for the kind of portable applications that an espruino the size of a flash drive seems good for, being able to add automatic battery charging when plugged into USB by dropping on two parts (the header and the MAX155x) would be sweet... Posted at 2014-09-06 by @gfwilliams @bobricius looks great! Can the 32k crytal be fitted while still using onboard usb? SMD: yes, I meant with the ends bent over. I had considered a side-soldered connector (like bobricius, but at 0.05") but it turned out to be too hard to track. Going back to 0.1" could work though. I might give that a try. MAX155x: no chance, but pads for this are on the rev 1v4 normal board which will be heading to distributors soon. Posted at 2014-09-07 by d0773d @gfwilliams, I really like the new design. If the new design is cheap enough I can permintly leave the board in a project :) Posted at 2014-09-07 by bobricius @gfwilliams no, if you solder crystal is need use metalic usb A, then you blend wings on connector and solder to bottom pads. It is wery slim and compact. Do you thing that is possible create espruino for 072 chips? I can send you assembled board. Posted at 2014-09-08 by DrAzzy Cool cool. I mean - I think the power connections that people will use are the current "VBat" and the 3.3 out - so that's really what matters for the small one, i'd say. Posted at 2014-09-08 by @gfwilliams @bobricius I'm afraid I just don't have time to port Espruino for you - I've got to focus on things that are going to help bring in money I'm afraid :( It shouldn't be very difficult though as Espruino uses ST's API and most of jshardware.c should compile as-is. The most difficult part would be getting USB working, but you may be able to copy the code that already exists for the F1 or F4. Posted at 2014-09-11 by bobricius @gfwilliams you have true this is no way. But I'm still have obsession by small PCB. My second attempt.
Posted at 2014-09-14 by bobricius and I have released this micro board compatible with maple mini https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/J2aOvbKF Posted at 2014-09-14 by tom.gidden Whoa. Just saw this thread. Please take my money as soon as humanly possible. With regards to the dilemma of extra pins, could a possible compromise be to have them on some sort of breakaway section? I'm not a hardware guy, but could the board be perforated or at least have some sort of safe cutting line over which the traces are just straight lines? I was wondering about doing the same for the USB connector. That way, the board could be programmed and developed full size and then snapped down to minimal size for use in production. This brings up another related thought... what about constructing a "micro"-Espruino module with no buttons, connectors, etc. and 0.05" pads, of similar size and form to the HC-05. I know it's not what you're planning with this new release, but I for one would be very interested in, say, four micro-Espruino modules and a single Development Kit (ie. the breakout board). (It goes without saying that I'll also pledge for the mini- on Kickstarter as planned ;) ) Posted at 2014-09-15 by @gfwilliams Thanks!
I was wondering about that... There's no reason why it couldn't be, but I'm a bit scared of either:
I could very easily re-arrange the wiring such that you could cut the end off if you wanted though. I'd imagine attacking it with a dremel would be far less likely to damage it than snapping the end off.
That's a really nice idea. Someone on here was planning a wearables platform that looked a bit like that, but actually having solder-on boards for Espruino/protoboard/etc would be great - especially as I could do a whole series of small specific purpose boards (for example for connecting to a WiFi module). If I ditched the voltage regulator (the chip can run off 2-4v) then the actual module could be tiny. I think given how far I'm along with this one it's maybe a job for an Espruino v3.0 though ;) I guess it could come down to what the extra cost of producing two separate boards was, but I guess as one would be almost through-hole I could supply a more expensive assembled board, as well as a kit. Posted at 2014-09-15 by tom.gidden Yeah, I thought perforation might be a step too far. However, if there was a clear line then the instruction could be to cut the tracks with a scalpel first (probably slightly back from the line) and then use whatever means necessary (Dremel; Hacksaw; persevering with a Stanley knife) to separate the board itself. As far as the micro- is concerned, if refactored as though-hole (or easily surface-mountable) the carrier board could be in kit form, as you say, or a hand-assembled board offered at a higher tier pledge. Other boards could be offered as downloadable designs, one-off orders, or small runs based purely on demand and cost... perhaps even as separate mini-Kickstarters themselves. If you could get the business aspect just right and find a few good customers, bulk sales of the core module for integration might subsidise the hobbyist and developer boards. I've seen a few successful Kickstarters for IoT modules designed for production use (eg. RFduino, MetaWear... admittedly both BLE + ARM), and none of them are anywhere close to being as easy to develop as Espruino. For that matter, if anyone produces an ARM package specced to run Espruino well enough and integrate BLE into the package itself, I reckon it'd be worth dropping everything and getting a Kickstarter out there ASAP. The barrier to entry for BLE for unfunded startups (eg. wearables) is too high at the moment: complicated dev tools and environment, bad example code and documentation, and so forth. Javascript would be a perfect host for an integrated (ie. not serial-driven) BLE component. Anyway, I digress. :) Posted at 2014-09-15 by @gfwilliams Yes - providing something more business-friendly would be great. I hope this new board will go some way towards that though - it should be something you can prototype with, and that is easy enough to put in small volume products. I'd love to do some BLE stuff - the problem for me is really on the PC/Mac/Linux/Android/iOS side. Even if BLE on Espruino is really easy, it seems like you've still got to do app development to use it properly, and with every platform being different that's going to be a nightmare. Now if there was a standard for BLE->Internet bridges and you could just go out and buy one, I'd suddenly be way more interested :) Posted at 2014-09-15 by DrAzzy
I think that's been sidestepped - the ESP8266 is cheaper than the HM-10 and goes direct Posted at 2014-09-15 by @gfwilliams True... Power usage isn't great though :( Posted at 2014-09-15 by tom.gidden Different thing altogether... for the kind of thing I'd be using BLE on Espruino for, I wouldn't want "proper" Wifi anyway. The desire for BLE is about having a lightweight connection from a smartphone or tablet to control and query one or more Espruinos. Classic Bluetooth would do the trick, but would drink far too much. The ultra-low-power nature of BLE coupled with Espruino's economical usage through an event-driven model would be a perfect match. It's a pity BLE included the word "Bluetooth", as it's just not the same thing at all. Rather than internet, serial and all the other things, BLE is mainly used (and apparently intended) for the typical sensor and accessory role, such as heart rate monitors and so forth. Trying to get it to establish a serial connection or any kind of constant stream (eg. audio) is just counter to the design. Additionally, controlling something like an HM-10 via serial and AT commands is a bit nutty, IMHO... it'd almost be more suitable to do it over I2C than serial. Gordon's right that the app development side is required to use it properly, though: most projects seem to offer this with a fairly weak sample app for iOS and Android. It's a shame because BLE has all the elements to be really great, but the sample code and tools on both sides of the connection are just a bit lame. It'd be very interesting to see a Javascript remote procedure call mechanism from smartphone to Espruino across BLE like the NRF24 implementation. Posted at 2014-09-15 by @gfwilliams It always annoys me when I see KickStarters that advertise how easy it'll be to make a smart device with their BLE board and then totally don't mention the app part - especially the bit where you need a pretty modern Mac, $500 iPhone and a $99/year developer subscription if you want to do anything iOS :( You have to wonder how many of their boards actually get used for anything serious. Executing random JavaScript over BLE (while presumably a massive security issue) would be very cool though, especially with something like PhoneGap (where you program in JavaScript). At least you can say 'hey, if you can develop an app then that's all you need'. Posted at 2014-09-15 by tom.gidden Agreed, but I'd still prefer having to get a modern Mac, iPhone, developer subscription and programming a little Javascript than having to get a modern Mac, iPhone, developer subscription, Nordic Eval Kit, a copy of Windows to be able to run Keil OR lose a good deal of hair trying to get GCC configured, and then have to spend tonnes of time trying to decipher the nrf51 SDK. Unusually in this case, writing the phone app is probably one of the easier and better-documented parts of the process! Posted at 2014-09-15 by d0773d @gfwilliams You mentioned something about BLE? How secure is BLE? I'm afraid to use BLE because, I have been reading and watching youtube videos about how to crack/hack BLE; surprisingly its rather simple to do. Posted at 2014-09-16 by @gfwilliams I don't know anything about BLE security, but I always assumed that like most things now there would be some exploitable holes in it. I wouldn't be afraid to use it, but just be aware that it isn't secure. If the worst case is someone with specialist hardware sitting 10m away can over-water your plants then it's probably a risk with taking, but I wouldn't put it in your pacemaker or insulin pump unless it was purely for sending status information :) IMO actually engineering a device to run code transmitted over a wireless link is always going to be a bit iffy. It's cool to do for prototypes with the NRF24 and Bluetooth modules but I wouldn't pretend it's secure. Posted at 2014-09-16 by tom.gidden IIRC, the BLE exploit is to do with a particularly weak pairing procedure: if paired in a secure environment -- you do all have a Faraday cage at home, right? -- I assume it's moderately secure... 128-bit AES, I think. Security on BLE is designed so the host (a.k.a. client, ie. the smartphone) does the vast majority of the work, and the peripheral (a.k.a. server, ie. the widget) just has to do very basic symmetric ciphering. This is to reduce power consumption, offloading all CPU work to the (presumably) more powerful host. Saying that, I would agree with Gordon's assessment in terms of risk. Most BLE usage seems to be predominantly read-only with most of the security features ignored. Saying that, many do have a DFU mode for OTA updates, and there's little to stop NSA/GCHQ/[A-Z56]{3,} using that to surreptitiously turn your fitness band into a rudimentary espionage device. Anyway, I apologise for taking this thread so far off-topic! Posted at 2014-09-16 by Spocki NSA/GCHQ/[A-Z56]{3,} ... great! Posted at 2014-09-17 by JumJum just read this: No built-in Micro SD I'm afraid - you'd have to solder something on for that. Posted at 2014-09-17 by @gfwilliams I'll be modifying the filesystem library so that you can connect it to whatever pins you want. Adaptors are readily available, are a few pounds on eBay, and only need 5 pins to wire up. It'll also mean you could do some pretty cool stuff like have two SD cards and swap between them with a button-press, so you could keep logging data without losing any. Posted at 2014-09-29 by d0773d @gfwilliams, I'm anxiously awaiting for the "new" designed Espruino to be released on kick starter ;-) Posted at 2014-09-29 by @gfwilliams :) Thanks - I am working on it - I've been trying to sort the video out for the last week or two... Posted at 2014-10-01 by DrAzzy
I'm a little bit excited for the Espruini. (note - if you do rtclick -> view image, you'll get higher res version which you can zoom) Just a bit. (keep in mind that I can't test it, since the change to move around pins for FS isn't in)... (the SOIC8 pads are for an AT25 SPI EEPROM. Will be getting one and adapting the AT24 module to do AT25. Usually less useful than AT24, since it needs 4 pins vs at24's 2, unless you've already got stuff on SPI hanging around the same area - in which case you need only run a CS line to it and connect it to the bus) Posted at 2014-10-01 by @allObjects ...looks just marvelous! Posted at 2014-10-01 by @gfwilliams Wow, looks nice! How are you doing those boards - toner transfer? For the filesystem I'll be adding Hopefully I'll get around to making Ethernet/WiFi/FS work with software SPI, which should make connecting it even easier too... |
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Posted at 2014-07-22 by d0773d
@gfwilliams are there any plans for the future to create a smaller Espruino board like the size of the Teensy++ 2.0?
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