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Altcoins support for OsmAnd Live #4871

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hieu-van opened this Issue Dec 21, 2017 · 49 comments

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@hieu-van

hieu-van commented Dec 21, 2017

Do you have any plans on supporting Bitcoin Cash or other altcoins for OsmAnd? Bitcoin seems to have suspended a lot of donations recently.

@jfburke3

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jfburke3 commented Dec 21, 2017

This sounds an awful lot like "how many global currencies will you support"?

@scaidermern

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scaidermern commented Dec 21, 2017

Alternatively just discontinue supporting this waste of energy and environmental disaster. Maybe we can find a better solution for OsmAnd Live donations?

@vshcherb

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vshcherb commented Dec 24, 2017

Yes, unfortunately we will need to stop supporting Bitcoin until Bitcoin fees will go lower to 20-30 satoshi per byte. We would like to add all possible cryptocurrencies support but that will require API changes on a 3rd party platform.
What's we could have implement pretty soon is only Litecoin.

Anyway please consider to update to SegWit Bitcoin addresses as soon as possible, so redeeming the Bitcoins will be 4 times cheaper.

@hieu-van hieu-van changed the title from Bitcoin Cash support to Altcoins support Dec 25, 2017

@scaidermern

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scaidermern commented Jan 2, 2018

Anyway please consider to update to SegWit Bitcoin addresses as soon as possible, so redeeming the Bitcoins will be 4 times cheaper.

I imagine most users not being aware of this fact. Consider sending a one-time notification to all users with a legacy bitcoin address.

@polarbearing

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polarbearing commented Jan 4, 2018

And pointing to clear instructions what to do exactly.

@hieu-van hieu-van closed this Jan 7, 2018

@vshcherb vshcherb reopened this Jan 14, 2018

@hieu-van hieu-van changed the title from Altcoins support to Altcoins support for OsmAnd Live Jan 19, 2018

@hieu-van

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hieu-van commented Jan 19, 2018

Maybe supporting Litecoin is a good idea. Bitcoin Cash is good but itself isn't as widespread as LTC 😕 I don't often see people using Ethereum or Dash for microtransactions.

@erdmark

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erdmark commented Jan 20, 2018

You could use a micropayment system for cryptocurrencies. They are often used by faucets and support different currencies.
Coinpot.co for example has BTC, BCH, LTC, DOGE and DASH including an exchange beetween them so a user can decide which currency to withdraw. Osmand can pay to users from 1 Satoshi.

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vshcherb commented Jan 22, 2018

Now there is certainly going good picture with Bitcoin fees lowering and there are good news with Lightning network which allows to do tx without fees. The only issue with LN that having a channel with OsmAnd HUB will require OsmAnd to commit 3-6 months payouts to the channel to make it reasonable and better 12 months. Obviously we will need to fund with real Bitcoins. Another downside of LN transactions are not verifiable with Explorers

@vshcherb vshcherb added this to the 3.1 milestone Jan 22, 2018

@hieu-van

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hieu-van commented Jan 22, 2018

Now there is certainly going good picture with Bitcoin fees lowering

It's still too expensive, at least for people in 3rd-world countries like me.

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vshcherb commented Jan 23, 2018

@hieu-van
The situation starts changing at least as of today was possible to make transaction by 20 satoshi per byte meaning tx was 0.3-0.4$. Segwit transaction is usually 4 times cheaper by withdrawing, OsmAnd pays tx fee to send amount (50-100 bytes per output), but there is a withdrawal fee for each output 200 bytes, with Segwit address it is 0.1-0.2$. At OsmAnd site we plan to accumulate payments until they reach 5-10$, so in total tx fees will be lower than 5%.

We prefer to do all transaction on change so it is easier to validate but it is hard to predict tx fee in Bitcoin.

@alexandrz

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alexandrz commented Jan 29, 2018

Is it possible to update withdrawal address? I would set segwit bech32 address to make it cheaper. Also, it would be great to be able to set withdrawal threshold.

@james2432

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james2432 commented Jan 30, 2018

Personally Bitcoins for me is a better solution as I am currently paying for hosted services for an osm tasking manager through the bitcoins I receive from OsmAnd. They do not accept any other crypto currency.

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Jan 31, 2018

The future of cryptocurrency is uncertain, some might go up, some others down. Instead of OSMAnd making a bet and choosing which to use, let's give the choice to the donators and accept several currencies, Ether, Ripple, Bitcoin Cash.

Donators should be told that if they pay in BTC most of their donation is gonna be the fee itself, so they'd better prefer an alt-coin.
Cartographers should be told to have wallets in alt-coins else they'll be unable to receive donations (which is already the case, if they don't have a bitcoin wallet).

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vshcherb commented Jan 31, 2018

Giving a choice of every crypto will delay the payouts & will keep busy an Osmand team for implementing it.
Threshold is set by us to make sure (the rules are explained on the website), we are not paying enormous fees to deliver small amounts which anyway will be very expensive to withdraw.

As of today, it looks like the fees on Bitcoin are getting down, so it is possible that we will proceed with payouts in February. Also it looks we will rather spend time implementing Lightning Network rather than switching to another altcoin. I didn't try LN yet myself, though if somebody tries and can make a description how it works, that would be good

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Jan 31, 2018

Like every year, they're down in January and go up again after Chinese New Year.
But I'm not sure if it's a solution, to have payouts twice a year, February/August when bitcoin network is lighter and fees are lower.

@lobit0

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lobit0 commented Feb 4, 2018

Consider sending a one-time notification to all users with a legacy bitcoin address.

I'm afraid that'd be all users. A friend of mine joined the list of recipients a month or so ago, and couldn't register using a segwit bech32 address. Form said it was an invalid bitcoin address.

Is it possible to update withdrawal address?

Maybe it could be made to overwrite it, if you register using the same OSM nick name.

@hieu-van

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hieu-van commented Feb 5, 2018

Form said it was an invalid bitcoin address.

It seems that the (currently suspended) register platform only accept p2sh Segwit address. That's an unusual thing because mainstream wallets like Electrum have already used bech32 address instead of p2sh

@joelinf

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joelinf commented Feb 12, 2018

Hi guys

I am a maper of osm for many years and also a cryptoactivist. Everyone is right up to a point, but nobody has considered two things.
Speed ​​and cost of transaction, and maintenance of the payment system.

I propose two alternatives

Zero commission costs. I was recently speaking with David Stastebo, founder of IOTA, and he told me that the IOTA team would help the OSMAND team to implement the payment system to the contributors using IOTA.
IOTA is a currency that has no costs to transfer from one wallet to another, it does not have miners, and the transaction speed reaches 0.001ms. It has no associated miners, and each transaction is confirmed by another, which also needs to be confirmed. (Tangle) I confirm 2 transactions, and so someone confirms mine. Iota is scalable, and the more devices you use iota, the faster the speed increases.
imagen

Created to connect the "world" of the internet of things, in multiple fields.
They would be happy to help and contribute to improve management, and thus demonstrate that IOTA can be used in multiple fields. Presentationhttp://bit.ly/2Cf7uGs
Wallet Iota Wallet, for linux, mac, windows, android

GEOCOIN for cartography lovers: geocoin is a minable coin launched in 2015, by GIS lovers, these last few months successfully managed to migrate under the Ubiq platform (based on ETH), it has a very good speed when confirming transfers, but it pays a commission to the miners. The wallet is Fusion, available for windows, linux, mac.

. Currently one of its services is geocoin cash, to "collect" money around the world (in the style of pokemon go), website whose map was made with mapbox (osm)
imagen
I want to know what you think about it. and we start working on an option that benefits us all.

@axre

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axre commented Feb 12, 2018

I digged a bit around in the crypto currency world, especially looking at the coins with the highest market caps - and would like to thank @joelinf for the suggestion of iota.

To me it seems to be relatively trustful coin for various reasons ☺️

I don't want go into detail here - please take this as recommendation to (critically) seek for information about iota.

Disclaimer: I don't hold any crypto currency. I'm active osm contributer.

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Feb 18, 2018

Whatever currency we choose, it should be mainstream enough, so that donators have them already.
If we ask donations in IOTA, which has 1.2% market cap, probably donators won't have them.
I doubt donators would create a IOTA wallet, convert their BTC to IOTA, and donate to us, just because we told them so.
Let's choose a cryptocurrency > 4% market cap. (ETH, Ripple, BCH) If we're unable to take a decision now, let's just wait for a flippening (i predict 2018) and choose the winner.

@axre

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axre commented Feb 18, 2018

I disagree with you @beatnickgr.

It should be a currency which fit the needs of osmand live.

  • no transaction fees (think worldwide, especially for contributers in developing countries like @hieu-van mentioned)
  • fast transaction
  • scalability (think worldwide)
  • devs offered osmand help to implement this (which needs to be confirmed although I thrust @joelinf in this)
  • fixed sum of coins, which means that even the small payouts from osmand live are likely going to extend their value
  • run by a not for profit foundation registered in Germany
  • there are tons of companies and cities developing real world use cases based on iota

Indeed iota is not yet widely adopted by the market, this is not bad and likely going to change if more people decide to use it.

The average osm contributer have no crypto currency at all, which applies to me too (osmand live coins I receive are donated). The question arise for whom do we target here?

The 5% which already hold a crypto currency which doesn't fit for micropayments?

The 10% which are interested in crypto currency but don't hold any coin yet?

The 85% which wait for the real world mass market use case and don't hold any coin yet?

Development for the few people (probably 0,2%?) holding some coins seems to be bad priority to me. Instead we need a coins which fits the micropayments use case - to me, this is iota.

Instead of doing what everybody does, you should care about the real use of a coin. You are totally right if you mention it must be "mass market" coin that people own - however most people don't own any yet. So scalability of the coin is important. The scalability of iota is almost endless.

Disclaimer: I don't hold any crypto currency.

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Feb 18, 2018

  • speed of transaction is not a relevant criteria. I don't mind receiving donations next day or even next week, as long as they arrive.
  • "based in Germany" is not a relevant criteria. What's the problem if it's based in Catalunya or Kurdistan?

Why not the FairCoin, supporting micropayments, fixed number of coins (53M), and ALREADY used in several cities worldwide for real transactions (not just speculation), 0.0025€ transaction fee, supported by FairCoop (non profit). Market cap is 0.01%, and there is scalability, it went x24 in the last year. Several non profit organizations are already accepting FairCoins, if we send them a message they will probably implement it for us too.

I still support criteria #1 MAKE IT EASY FOR THE DONATOR
So I suggest allowing several currencies, so that the donator can choose in which currency they want to donate. Currently coins are distributed between the cartographers which have the corresponding wallet (BTC), and this will remain the same after we add the new cryptocurrencies, ETH, BCH, XRP, IOTA, FAIR, etc.

@axre

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axre commented Feb 18, 2018

@beatnickgr

You mentioned before that you even would wait half a year for payouts - again, please note that your needs are not the needs of everyone. Speed of transaction is relevant for costumers and merchants - and this is not going to change with crypto currency. Every pay solution tries to be as fast as possible - money "in between" does not generate value to anyone.

Of course it is relevant that the Iota Foundation is regulated in Germany & accepted by german law as non profit. German laws might be stricter as in Kurdistan, which isn't even a country yet (if kurds reading this: I have no knowledge & opinion in this. Don't feel offended.). Do you know a country with a better regulation & law system than Germany? What makes you think so? And if yes, is there a multi billion coin already registered as non-profit?

Is you suggestion of FairCoin even honest?

I'm okay with thousands of options to donate as long as you help the osmand team to implement this.

Or we may just start collecting the donations from anywhere in the world. Any Currency is accepted. That would be EASY for the donators.

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Feb 18, 2018

@axre

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axre commented Feb 18, 2018

Okay.

So why would you prefer FairCoin over IOTA?

Btw I don't know any coin which is closed source. Closed source wallet makes no sense for crypto currencys.

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Feb 18, 2018

@axre

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axre commented Feb 18, 2018

  1. In Germany there are 4 places to spend them. You probably live in Spain? The question is which coin iota or FairCoin is more widely accepted in the future?
  2. There's a os wallet for every coin I know. Atleast iota have one, but the foundation plans to release a more user friendly one in few weeks.
  3. How many do you know? 5? 10? 20? Ask yourself - in the future, will there be more people who use FairCoin or Iota?

I understand you prefer FairCoin because you already use it.

In the future there will be only few payment options for crypto currencys - if they even exist. So scalability is important, media coverage is important, real world use cases are important. It is important whether people thrust the devs (which they will if the devs are regulated and committed to common good). It's important if devs have the money to extend and maintain the project - iota foundation has more funds than the market cap of FairCoin as far as I know. And these funds were donated by the Iota community. Guess that's a hole lot of thrust.

However thrust is nice - use cases are needed right now. That's why they are actively developed by companies (Bosch, Daimler and ~30 others) and few cities (atleast 4, want to use iota as part of the "smart city").

We will see when Iota gets mainstream. Personally - after endless hours of research about coins - I have no doubt that it will.

And still I like FairCoin, however it seems to be poorly backed up with funds and I don't find any information where this organization is accepted as non-profit.

May the better coin "takes it all" 😜

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Feb 18, 2018

@axre

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axre commented Feb 18, 2018

The problem is we need to develop a solution for the current problem now and not when you feel comfortable enough to follow the crowd.

If you are interested in finding a solution you may suggest a better coin. If it's FairCoin for you then you may contact the dev and ask if he's willing to help.

What you said a few post above is ~ "I have no knowledge or opinion about altcoins, implement & accept them all, I will not help you".

After 2 months - in my opinion - we could focus on a solution.

If you could find something worse about iota / a better coin please share.

@jfburke3

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jfburke3 commented Feb 19, 2018

Right now, I'm visualizing @vshcherb slouched on his sofa, laptop next to him opened to this thread, 3 empty beer bottles on the table in front of him and a half-drunk one in his hand...sobbing a little.

@james2432

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james2432 commented Feb 19, 2018

@jfburke3 that seem like a cliche portrayal of a developer dont you think?

@joelinf

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joelinf commented Feb 19, 2018

Hi guys,

Now let's consider the following:

Minimum wage
This is an example of the minimum wage that countries earn in these countries; most of the third world.
You can see the complete list in:https://www.datosmacro.com/smi
imagen
In many of these countries, paying a commission of up to $ 5 dollars to send crypto, is absurdity in some countries is equivalent to food for a family of 4 people for 3 days And yes, there are people who live and map in those countries, its locations.
and I have met people in that situation, and that thanks to the donations they received at BTC for mapping, when they exchanged it for local currency, it helped them to supply a need.
Cryptocurrencies are good in developed countries, but underdeveloped countries, due to transaction costs, are a "failure"

scalability and others uses

consider for a moment IOTA :
In iota they have developed "my leaderboard" and flash channels to share IOTAS.
When you are two combine it is possible to include in the osmand app, the option to donate directly to OSMAND Live or to other users.

The first in order to quantify contributions (and even create smart contracts) and the second in order to streamline payments in certain circumstances.
(https://learn.iota.org/tutorial/payments-and-messaging-leaderboard)
imagen

The latter could be used at the time of being in the field mapping when disasters occur, and volunteers require, for example, to buy travel plans, data plans, or any other need. (Even in the third world countries, ATM cryptocurrency ATMs, and payment processors are already available to convert from cryptos to fiat currency)

https://blog.iota.org/instant-feeless-flash-channels-88572d9a4385
imagen

_> To think:, OSMF receives donations throughout the year, however OSMF has never donated anything to mappers; and just the community we are beginning to open the debate about the foundation, (you can read this article:https://blog.emacsen.net/blog/2018/02/16/osm-is-in-trouble

I appreciate the work they do in OSMAND to help the mappers.

@beatnickgr Iota Wallet and IRI (Server) license is GPL 3. https://github.com/iotaledger/wallet

@hieu-van

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hieu-van commented Mar 3, 2018

Bitcoin Cash gained some attention recently. IOTA is good but it isn't designed to be a currency. It's rather some kind of crypto-fuel for IoT network like Ethereum. Therefore, although I support implementing IOTA, I would stick with Bitcoin Cash.

@axre

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axre commented Mar 3, 2018

Bitcoin cash is the same as Bitcoin, and has the same design problems. I don't think it's usable for micropayments due high transaction fees.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin%20cash-transactionfees.html

IOTA is much more reasonable for the project as @joelinf pointed out. And yeah, its just as usable as a currency, as any other coin.

The only downside to me - the more user friendly wallet is not released yet, but this is a matter of weeks - probably the same weeks to implement this into osmand.

IOTA ftw! 😉

Edit: average transaction fee chart might be misleading. Sry.

@mikeziri

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mikeziri commented Mar 7, 2018

iota is full of bugs. read the recent MIT statements. it's going down sooner or later.
i propose opening Lightning Network channels and use BTC.

@axre

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axre commented Mar 7, 2018

That's interesting - i see many people, who already own other coins, arguing and spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt. As I follow this stuff with no financial interest (I own 20i for testing purposes, with a value of 0,00USD) its quite obvious that most of these claims are not solid.

https://blog.iota.org/official-statement-regarding-the-mit-dci-email-leaks-ea3cacd6699a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt?wprov=sfla1

Regarding the latest MIT DCI stuff you may read the foundations perspective and look at these mails, which were published.

Have a nice day.

@mikeziri

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vshcherb commented Mar 8, 2018

The payouts were done for all 3 months cause Bitcoin network fees went really down. The registration will be soon open again

@hieu-van

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hieu-van commented Mar 8, 2018

The payouts were done for all 3 months cause Bitcoin network fees went really down.

NOOOOOOOOOO I LOST THAT BITCOIN ADDRESS


Does that mean Bitcoin will still be used? Well that's good, but I suggest we migrate to Bitcoin Cash asap, because BCH tx fee is always low, not as volatile as that of Bitcoin tx.

IMHO only when true cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash can no longer be used should we consider to use those crypto-fuels as cryptocurrencies, e.g. Ethereum, IOTA or Ripple (as @joelinf and @axre suggested above).

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Mar 8, 2018

@axre

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axre commented Mar 8, 2018

im fine with that, although i still think with some technical stuff done and a big funding community using iota (or maybe a another good currency) there would be a HUGE (trumps voice) potential for mapping in poorly mapped countries with low income.

but this potential is still there, regardless if its done now or in the (very near?) future.

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BalooUriza commented Mar 8, 2018

@vshcherb

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vshcherb commented Mar 9, 2018

Registration will be open soon, so you can update BTC address with Segwit. We have the formula mentionned on the website that we are sending payout only if tx-fee (on our side OsmAnd) don't exceed 10% of the payout itself. So in that sense OsmAnd reserves always 10% to proceed the payout itself. Of course it doesn't take into account the fees to withdraw bitcoin i.e. send to exchange etc. That fee could be lowered by using Segwit address.

@hieu-van

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hieu-van commented Mar 9, 2018

As @vshcherb decided to continue using Bitcoin, I'm closing this.

@vshcherb Wait, will bech32 address be supported? Btw, has PayPal ever come up to your mind?

@hieu-van hieu-van closed this Mar 9, 2018

@beatnickgr

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beatnickgr commented Mar 9, 2018

@vshcherb
I'm not sure if we can expect every OsmAnd contributor to have Segwit.
On the other hand, we can expect 50% less fees for everyone, if we accumulate 2 months in 1 payment. It's a just a question of programming.

@hieu-van
Did it ever came up to your mind that PayPal accepts no cryptocurrency, is only available in these countries, and is not FOSS in the first place?
Going from BTC to Paypal sounds like walking backwards.
No, thanks, but no.

@hieu-van

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hieu-van commented Mar 9, 2018

@beatnickgr Calm down, just a thought crossed my mind.
About SegWit, there are not many wallets out there that support SegWit. Another thing is that we still don't know whether @vshcherb will choose to implement bech32 or legacy SegWit address in his platform.

@bitcoinuser

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bitcoinuser commented Apr 17, 2018

I opened an issue to osmand accept donations in bitcoin lightning payments: #5248

@call-me-matt

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call-me-matt commented May 4, 2018

Do you realize that on your website there is still the comment "Important: Registration temporarily suspended. Read this article for more information." displayed on the recipients page? I think its time to remove that remark, right?

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vshcherb commented May 6, 2018

@call-me-matt Thanks corrected

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ADepic commented May 26, 2018

Try adding skycoin

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