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interested in collaboration? #1

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elf-pavlik opened this Issue May 25, 2015 · 136 comments

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elf-pavlik commented May 25, 2015

Please comment here if you would like to collaborate on food networks interoperability!

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wvengen commented May 25, 2015

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guaka commented May 25, 2015

Trashwiki isn't very active but probably has over 100 visitors a day, feel free to promote projects there (e.g. on Main Page)

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Skud commented May 26, 2015

Sounds fab! I don't have any cycles to contribute but I wish you all the best with it :)

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fosterlynn commented May 27, 2015

@elf-pavlik We're interested in collaborating on vocab for food, especially as it fits into the broader economic vocab. Our food network software is no longer being maintained, but we are working with one food related network with our NRP software. What did you have in mind going forward?

Also, the openfoodnetwork people have been at least been discussing vocab, and I see you have included them. Here is one conversation from last year, there might be more.... http://openfoodfoundation.org/project/standards-protocols/conversation/what-if-anything-should-be-here

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simonv3 commented May 27, 2015

Hey @elf-pavlik I'm not 100% sure on what you had in mind when you wanted to collaborate. The folks over at OpenFarm (cc @roryaronson) are definitely interested in having conversations about standards. Right now we're working on making our data more standard oriented (openfarmcc/OpenFarm#641, openfarmcc/OpenFarm#241, openfarmcc/OpenFarm#509).

Let us know what you have in mind, it might be a good idea to have a real time conversation. We hang out in Slack (email rory@openfarmcc for an invite) but we also have an IRC channel on freenode that pipes into our slack chat (#openfarmcc).

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elf-pavlik commented May 27, 2015

Thank you @Skud, @fosterlynn and @simonv3! I'll check out all the previous discussions you have referenced. Also just found this one with many familiar avatars 😄 https://www.loomio.org/d/lKdgHqoJ/open-data-standards

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roryaronson commented May 27, 2015

Hi all! (thanks for looping me in Simon)

I'm from the OpenFarm team and am interested in this big picture thinking/service linking that you are proposing. I'll listen in on the conversations here and would be glad to hop in on a group real-time meeting if one is proposed.

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kirstenalarsen commented May 28, 2015

yep for sure. As you can see from @fosterlynn link above, this is something that comes up quite a lot with us - we're definitely interested but not specifically focused on it right now - be great to keep watch / input onto this conversation

just hooking in some other ofn-ers - @pmackay @lin-d-hop @mkllnk @datashaman @aidandunsdon @RohanM @summerscope @myriamboure @rafaqz

also good to try and link in the farm hack / open shops and north east food knowledge network people in the states - they're working on something like this and quite progressed with shared calendar etc. They're particularly focused on north-east usa initially but open source (drupal) . . I'm not github connected though - I'll email them and point them here. Would be great to have all these conversations connected!!

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bedhed commented May 28, 2015

Hi all, just wanted to say hi and that we're obviously very interested too. At the moment, we're more focused on afk farming development, like http://concoursfermesdavenir.fr/, but we'll hopefully cross the nationnal and digital border soon.
Cheers ! Don't hesistate to tell if we can help !
Clément from The Food Assembly (https://github.com/lrqdo)

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elf-pavlik commented Jul 30, 2015

Please check out this event planned for end of September and October in Europe: http://wuppdays.foodsharing.de/
Looks like a great possibility to meet in real life with everyone who could make it!

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elf-pavlik commented Aug 16, 2015

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elf-pavlik commented Sep 7, 2015

@wvengen @bedhed did you evaluate by any chance open source platform from Open Food Network?
http://openfoodnetwork.org/platform/user-guide/

I would like to start matrix of features provided by various platforms and needed by various networks. OFN seems to have great documentation of existing features!

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wvengen commented Sep 7, 2015

@elf-pavlik Interesting - I've tried to use OFN about a year ago, but didn't really get anywhere useful. The current documentation looks good. Creating a feature matrix would be really useful, let's start making a list of relevant features e.g. in the wiki.

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bedhed commented Sep 7, 2015

@elf-pavlik we looked at ofn but not very deep : what we now is that the model afk is the same as us (hub = assembly), but the online product is open source and free where we are closed source & taking a 8.75% fee. For this fee we provide a lot of other services, online & afk (and even if it's not proven, the fact we are older and have more resources could mean we have more features). Maybe these non-tech elements should be included (or at least available from) in the feature matrix too, so people can compare the features in regard to the underlying model.
We don't have such a good looking documentation, but end-user help can be found at http://support.laruchequiditoui.fr/hc/fr (english version available but not as complete).
On the top of my head, here is a quick feature list to get started:

  • user
  • community (hub/assembly) (linking end users to farmers through community's leader)
  • community profile (social, SEO...)
  • other social (chat, newsletter...)
  • farmers profile
  • catalogue/offers
  • stock
  • sale
  • distribution
  • financial transactions
  • billing
  • logistics
  • ...
    Cheers !
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myriamboure commented Sep 7, 2015

Great initiative @elf-pavlik !
@bedhed , I am not sure that the afk models are really the same...even if it could look like. The hub notion is broader than the assembly one. In OFN, a hub can be any kind of model, while in the food assembly, I think there is only one model (which is the model of the Assembly defined by the Food Assembly, no?). In OFN, a hub can be a farmer who wants to sell its products directly, a group of farmers who want to sell their products together, a group of consumers who want to buy together, an entrepreneur who want to open something like an assembly, or sell local products to restaurants, stores, canteens, etc. I like to say that OFN cultivates the eco-diversity :-)
Also in the features list, in OFN every "entreprise" (either a hub or a producer) can set up its own "entreprise fees", their shipping methods, payment methods, etc. That fits its model (they can take 0% commission if that's a hub which is run on a volunteer base for example).
It is definitely true that the food assembly has developed a specific support to hubs that is very valuable, and has the advantage to propose a "simple model", while OFN enable a lot of customization and give a lot of flexibility to enable to operate lots of different models, which also increase a bit the complexity (even if, in my opinion, it stays pretty simple to use).
Another feature in OFN is the "holonic dimension". you can create "groups" on OFN, gathering any mix of producers and hubs, to make cooperation easier. For example that can be used by hubs who want to cooperate on logistics.
My perception is that OFN is more an infrastructure... that's why we want it to be a "commons", deployed by a network of non-profit partners.
I agree that it is important to show in the matrix non-tech elements as well :-)
In the features list I would add the possibility to connect with accounting packages?
Cheers:-)

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elf-pavlik commented Sep 7, 2015

@myriamboure @bedhed @wvengen @sjockers please let's move conversation about various specialized sub types of Hub do dedicated thread: #4 Thanks!

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bedhed commented Sep 8, 2015

@myriamboure I oversimplified and apologize for that. But we agree on the fact that providing AFK and model comparison not far from the features comparison is relevant.

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henkRW commented Sep 9, 2015

Hi @elf-pavlik, yes we seen Foodsoft, and we decided to build own system localized in Poland. We are developing new version based on Symfony2 (PHP backend API) and AngularJs (optionally Fornt-end app). We are open to integrate it with OFN or other suppliers/producers or food share networks.

http://wuppdays.foodsharing.de/ looks intresting. But I don't know If I can go there yet.

For sure we are going to Warsaw https://co-munity.net/growl/events/4th-national-gathering-food-cooperatives-warsaw

I know about one more group from Copenhagen:
https://github.com/kbhff/eggplant

Cheers,

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elf-pavlik commented Sep 10, 2015

@henkRW Hi 😄

Could you please point me to the documentation of your API? I would like to know if you reuse some already existing common API patterns and data formats. For example something like http://apicommons.org or http://schema.org/ etc.

Together with @fosterlynn and couple other people we start in next days a new Community Group at W3C - Social Economy to coordinate such work and also see possibility of standardizing work already happening in https://github.com/openvocab

Cheers!

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brauliobo commented Oct 4, 2015

Hey guys, I'm Bráulio from EITA Cooperative from Brazil. Just had a nice conversation with @elf-pavlik about http://openfoodnetwork.org/platform/user-guide/advanced-features/buying-groups/.

It was pretty nice to see connected initiatives around the world and the effort to connect their systems.

Let me briefly explain about the system we use. It is a free software project, called Noosfero (https://gitlab.com/noosfero/noosfero), based on Rails. We actually call it Noosfero-ecosol (https://github.com/coletivoEITA/noosfero-ecosol) to bring a focus on solidarity economy.
The basic entities are Community, Enterprise and Person, as we are a social-economic-network.
In the economic part, we have products which associates inputs, price details (for open price), qualifiers, certifiers, etc.
For buying groups, we have six plugins: delivery, orders, suppliers, volunteers, orders_cycle and consumers_coop. (stock coming in the next few months). For ecommerce we use a plugin called shopping_cart.
It was very interesting to see how aligned we are in terms use :)
The source code of them are at: https://github.com/coletivoEITA/noosfero-ecosol/tree/next/plugins

Today 6 consumers' coop and 700 SSE use the system on Cirandas.net. Some consumers coop links:
http://cirandas.net/comerativamente
http://redemoinho.coop.br/catalog
http://cirandas.net/uilikande/
http://cirandas.net/bem-da-terra
These groups are basically selling organic and fair trade foods.

For interop we now support ESSGlobal, which is an effort of RIPESS, to interoperate solidarity economy systems' data. You can see ESSGlobal RDFa data extracted from one product here: http://linter.structured-data.org/?url=http:%2F%2Fartgravata.com.br%2Fmyprofile%2Fmanage_products%2Fshow%2F46002%3Frank%3D0

Our plan is to move to Riot.js on our next financing we are looking for, so that our entire system will be based on JSONs APIs.

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elf-pavlik commented Oct 4, 2015

Thank you @brauliobo !

I will propose soon an online video call where everyone interested can demo their platforms (we can record it and share with others). Let's all please also remember that we have chat room available for more spontanious exchanges of thoughts: https://gitter.im/ouisharelabs/food-dashboard 💬

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brauliobo commented Oct 4, 2015

@elf-pavlik there is also this one from spain: https://github.com/jmueller17/Aixada @jmueller17

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bhaugen commented Oct 4, 2015

We're not so interested in demoing our food network software, because we are not working on it anymore. But people could mine the code if they want, and we will be reworking the planning features from that software into this newer project. While we do that, any other food-related projects that are interested in planning supply and demand for next year or next season or next month can join us and we can make the design more portable.

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elf-pavlik commented Oct 15, 2015

I hope @bablukid working on http://www.cagette.net/ | https://github.com/bablukid/cagette will join he conversation 😄

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bablukid commented Oct 15, 2015

Hey ! thx for inviting me @elf-pavlik ! I'm a french developer and author of cagette.net , an open source software for french food coops called "AMAP" ( which could be translated to : nonprofit organization supporting sustainable , local and organic agriculture ). I'm working on it since 2013 and I have 13 groups (1000+ families) using it in south west France. I plan to start a broader communication in one month to spread the software over all the french-speaking countries. I'm doing this professionally, it means I provide paid "hosting and support" memberships.

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simonv3 commented Oct 15, 2015

@bablukid that's awesome. what is in involved in spreading it to other communities? Are you at all interested in doing it in other languages? I'm Belgian and could translate to dutch.

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bablukid commented Oct 15, 2015

@simonv3 thanks for your proposal but it's a bit early for me. I still need to make my software more mature before considering translating it. But perhaps along 2016 I will be technically and structurally ready to start such a project. I'll keep you in touch :)
Anyway if someone make a feature comparison matrix , I'll be glad to contribute by adding a column for Cagette.net.

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bhaugen commented Feb 18, 2017

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djodjoni commented Feb 20, 2017

@bhaugen thx for the reply and examples :)
I see this happening in 2 basic stages:

  1. static stage where data about Actors is shared so then Actors can be discovered and connect to each other in order to plan a flow
  2. dynamic flow management when the flow is actually flowing and different parties receive events

For 1) I am working on a simple service where anybody can put linked data for Actors similarly to OSM and stores it in Resources blobs where then Resources can be claimed by their actual real world owners. This service is not intended for complex queries but can provide data dumps which then can be used in various ways to query and analyze.

I have also uploaded a really simple and basic draft ontology which I wish to link as much as possible to VF ontology with specific concepts related to food chains.
It can also be seen here http://openthings-cc.github.io/openthings-food/

I'd love to have some feedback :)

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bhaugen commented Feb 21, 2017

@djodjoni I'll just comment on this part now, and will provide some feedback on your Owl later.

I see this happening in 2 basic stages:

  1. static stage where data about Actors is shared so then Actors can be discovered and connect to each other in order to plan a flow
  2. dynamic flow management when the flow is actually flowing and different parties receive events

Often 1) is preceded by, or evolves into, 0) a recipe (in VF terms) or a supply chain or value network model which defines the resource flows between the actors and then is used to generate plans.
This describes the pattern and algorithm. (Written before I converted to the open source religion.)

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djodjoni commented Feb 21, 2017

@bhaugen thx for the doc!
In fact by 1) I mostly meant a disconnected map/directory of Actors, used primary to discover each other in order to form or connect to a value network then it comes the recipe, planning and my 2) observation and management

In VF we discuss all this but without 1) where it is assumed as done and there are sufficient Actors to form a chain, but in practice this is not trivial and most of the time lack the advantages that a technology can provide such as simple structured data sharing, a lot of the working chains right now still use excel over email.

I pass very often by a construction of Delhaize and I am amazed how fast they have built a massive concrete building where people can find everything. Short supply chains, local markets, food hubs will not disrupt any time soon any of those players unless similar coverage and easiness to shop is achieved on top of that collaboration between those small initiatives is vital in order to show more value(environment, social) and save on money(transport, picking for example)

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bhaugen commented Feb 21, 2017

@djodjoni

In fact by 1) I mostly meant a disconnected map/directory of Actors, used primary to discover each other in order to form or connect to a value network then it comes the recipe, planning and my 2) observation and management

The MutualAidNetworks are going through that stage now. We just met with them for 4 days. They want to set up what we talked about in this VF issue:
valueflows/valueflows#135

They're still using our old software for that stage, but have some big ideas about what to do next, that will be difficult with our old software architecture. We're trying to figure out what to do. As always, the easiest thing to do next is to improve what we got, but at some point, a bigger leap will be required.

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djodjoni commented Feb 22, 2017

nice !! i'm working on something simpler than that and specific to the food chains and using the provided vocab. the connections and interactions with a flow now are nor clear and this is why I am getting more involved in VF. My first stage is to be able to add/update data, version data and API to export to common e-commerce solutions or anything else for querying, analyses and visualization like OSM dumps and overpass API.
I'd really like to split the pieces of software as independent as possible and communicate via APIs and LD.
I'll opensource this hopefully soon and would love to get your feedback :) Btw I'd love to discuss and look at any other software solution you're thinking of for MutualAidNetworks

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bhaugen commented Feb 22, 2017

@djodjoni

I'd really like to split the pieces of software as independent as possible and communicate via APIs and LD.

I think the main VF concepts and even repos might help factor out somewhat independent modules, although they are all interdependent in real life. We have some computer-science educated young people looking at our monolithic NRP software and wanting to refactor it, which was also one of the reasons we are working on VF.

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djodjoni commented Feb 22, 2017

@bhaugen 👍

We have some computer-science educated young people looking at our monolithic NRP software and wanting to refactor it,

is this actually open ?

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bhaugen commented Feb 22, 2017

@djodjoni

is this actually open ?

Everything we do is open source. That one now has three different groups working on forks of the original repo.

We're trying to get them all to collaborate more closely, and they will most likely do that.

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djodjoni commented Feb 22, 2017

nice i'll take look these days ! adding python to the scene. I like diversity :) I haven't seen anything in java yet I believe or .NET :)

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bhaugen commented Feb 22, 2017

When we started working on NRP, nothing like it existed. Now I keep seeing more similar software all the time. I'll bet somethign exists in Java. But .NET might be culturally alien to the ideas...

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djodjoni commented Feb 22, 2017

But .NET might be culturally alien to the ideas...

hahaha you never know :))

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myriamboure commented Mar 1, 2017

Hi everyone!

For information, after having discussed on all that with @elf-pavlik and Sylvain Le Bon (not in this repo) a year ago, we are starting an initiative in France called DataFoodConsortium. We are various food platforms around the table, The Food Assembly ( @bedhed here but it's Nicolas Clavaud who is mainly involved), Cagette.net ( @bablukid ), Panier Local ( I don't think Ludovic is yet in this thread! But he had thought about interoperability for a long time, he had developed a "connector" some time ago: http://www.circuitouvert.fr/le-connecteur/), myself for Open Food Network (ping @kirstenalarsen ), Ekylibre ( @burisu , Ekylibre is more on the production side but also already a lot into interoperability, they have built their platform on http://open-nomenclature.org/) and Peter Hanappe who is a researcher and works on IoT for farming (an open source robot for weeding). GS1 ( @e-Amine ) is also interested by the topic and joining the reflexion.
Our intention is first, on a local scale, with not too many people (the few ones I mentioned above), to start building a prototype on a concrete use case to see how all that is gonna work and learn, and from there open up a broader and international conversation on the topic. So I'm taking contacts now with the AIMS (FAO) and W3C to discuss all that and start thinking about the "space and facilitation" we could create to hold a broader conversation. If you have relevant contacts please let me know ;-)

I'm not at all technical, but I'm conscious that if we want to move forward together on interoperability and gather around the table all the stakeholders to find consensus on standards, and on the governance of the data we will share, we need to hold the space for those conversation to happen and facilitate them :-) That's what I'm trying to do!

So that everyone interested by the topic can follow what we are doing in this first stage of DataFoodConsortium, we will publish blog posts on the DataFoodConsortium website (I'll publish the first one this week!) http://datafoodconsortium.org/

I'll keep you posted here :-) Cheers!

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enricostano commented Mar 1, 2017

We'll keep a close look at this too from Katuma, a probably near future Open Food Network instance for Spain / Catalunya 💪

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elf-pavlik commented Mar 7, 2017

Folks working with farming/growing, you may find this one interesting http://openag.media.mit.edu/user-interface/

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almereyda commented Jun 20, 2017

I have just pointed @mrothauer at this issue, who is developer of https://github.com/foodcoopshop/foodcoopshop, used quite often in Austria.

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mrothauer commented Jun 20, 2017

Thanks @almereyda for informing me about this issue. It's great to read that there are so many motivated people who try their best to make the world a better place.

https://github.com/foodcoopshop/foodcoopshop is an open source software that was mainly developed by myself, the project started in 2014. So far, about 10 food-coops are working with it and 8 of them are hosted and supported by me, all of them in Upper Austria. I am self employed and provide hosting and support for money. I estimate that around 500 food coop members and maybe 70 manufacturers are actively using the software at the moment.

FoodCoopShop is designed to be easily used by a lot of different people (members of the coop and manufacturers) and supports the food coop in many other tasks. For example, the order lists are sent to the manufactures automatically and the invoicing for the manufacturers is done by the software. So far, it's only available in German.

A full list of features (in German): https://www.foodcoopshop.com/die-features/

I should go to bed now,
Mario

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myriamboure commented Jun 21, 2017

Some feedback from the Data Food Consortium project, where we are at and the first business ontology we came up with. http://datafoodconsortium.org/blog/building-a-common-language-our-semantic-business-concepts-model
A prototype is under development this summer to show a concrete application !

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bhaugen commented Jun 21, 2017

Hi @myriamboure - that's really exciting and interesting. While I see you have rejected Value Flows as a base for what you are doing, would you mind if we try to map your model to the value flows model? Every time we do something like that, we learn something.

I think our ontologies are compatible, but value flows is necessarily more abstract and generic. When I was working on food network software a few years ago, I had a model a lot more like yours, that was more specific to food network operations.

[edit] p.s. I am not trying to change your mind and "sell" you on using value flows. What you are doing makes more sense for what you are trying to accomplish.

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kirstenalarsen commented Jun 21, 2017

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bhaugen commented Jun 21, 2017

Hi @kirstenalarsen ! Good to connect again. The article Myriam cited says they did know about valueflows and did not think it fit. I fully understand.

What's interesting to me now, from the valueflows perspective, is how to take a very generic economic ontology (we are trying to handle any and all economic activities) and tailor it for a particular domain.

One of my old colleagues, @jamestauber, once told me that every level of increasing abstraction loses 90% of your audience of the people who understood and liked the version that was more tailored to their situation.

(And by the way, the reason I stopped developing food network software was that Kirsten and her gang were doing it so much better. I like to work on unsolved problems. When I started, there was no food network software. When I finished, here was this wonderful system from Australia!)

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myriamboure commented Jun 21, 2017

@bhaugen actually I would love to try to converge the work we have been doing with the Value Flow, I contacted @elf-pavlik the other in order to do so, we don't want to do that job on our side but rather converge and integrate a more generic approach, but we wanted first to think about our specific need as a learning process and to make sure then if we converge to a more generic ontology, that it fits our need. So I hope what we have done can enrich the Value Flow ontology and that we can maybe join it :-) I'm pretty new to all those topics, and don't fully understand yet Value Flow, but would love to brainstorm with you about that. Cause maintaining and updating this ontology is an ongoing work, I had thought first we could publish it on Github and enable anyone to post issues, and then solve them by evolving the ontology, etc. But I'll be happy to discuss with you if you have time in the coming days ? I'm out in a farm for two months from early July, but would be great to have a call also with Benoit who is facilitating the development of the prototype now (I'll invite him here now).

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bhaugen commented Jun 21, 2017

Seems like a good plan to me. @fosterlynn and I will discuss your model and I'll also add a valueflows issue about this topic and we'll see who all wants to participate. Don't expect fast, though...ok? Everybody has a lot going on. When do you leave for the farm?

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djodjoni commented Jun 21, 2017

@myriamboure

I had thought first we could publish it on Github and enable anyone to post issues, and then solve them by evolving the ontology

this is a good idea 👍

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bhaugen commented Jun 21, 2017

Ah, wonderful, here's @djodjoni ! of http://linked.farm/ !

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myriamboure commented Jun 21, 2017

Yes @bhaugen we've been discussing a few times with @djodjoni :-) I leave on 1st July and will be there for two months, so either before July for a first discussion, or either after the summer would be great for me actually ;)

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bhaugen commented Jun 27, 2017

@myriamboure I am writing some comments over in this value flows issue valueflows/valueflows#229 for you and the VF gang to think about as you go on your farm adventure. Have a lovely two months!

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almereyda commented Jun 28, 2017

I feel this thread could be split into a new 2017 edition similar to valueflows/valueflows#172. Also I am dumping a link here:

When the UK started using OFN we decided to keep the category structure that our food hubs in the UK were currently using and diverge from the Australian categories. As our structure becomes increasingly divergent and we work with more data I'm thinking this was the wrong strategy.

It seems to me that prioritising the interoperability between OFN instances will be a huge strength down the line.

To begin this conversation, I'm interested to know which instances, if any, have implemented a taxonomy structure different to Aus. And if so what this is?

https://community.openfoodnetwork.org/t/categories-and-taxons-international-unification/978

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