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"Perl" in the name "Perl 6" is confusing and irritating #81

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lizmat opened this issue Aug 8, 2019 · 361 comments
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@lizmat lizmat commented Aug 8, 2019

Perl 6 was initially conceived to be the next version of Perl. It took way too long to mature to an initial release. Meanwhile, people interested in taking Perl 5 along, took back the reigns and continued developing Perl 5.

Having two programming languages that are sufficiently different to not be source compatible, but only differ in what many perceive to be a version number, is hurting the image of both Perl 5 and Perl 6 in the world. Since the word "Perl" is still perceived as "Perl 5" in the world, it only seems fair that "Perl 6" changes its name.

Since Larry has indicated, in his video message to the participants of PerlCon 2019 in Riga, that the two sister languages are now old and wise enough to take care of themselves, such a name change would no longer require the approval of the BDFL.

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@lizmat lizmat commented Aug 8, 2019

I would therefore propose to change the name to "the Camelia Programming Language" or "Camelia" for short, for several reasons:

  • the search term "camelia programming language" already brings you to the right place. This means that changing the name to "Camelia" will have minimal impact on findability on search engines such as Google and DuckDuckGo.

  • the logo / mascot would not need changing: it's just that it now also becomes the actual name of the programming language.

  • "Camelia" in its name, still carries something Perlish inside of it.

  • The concept of "Camelia" being an implementation of a specification in "roast", still stands. The alternative, to use "Rakudo" as the name of the language, would cause confusion with the name being used to indicate an implementation, and would endanger the separation between specification and implementation.

  • Choosing yet another name, such as Albus, would mean having to start from scratch with marketing and getting the name out there. Hence my preference for a known name such as "Camelia".

  • The "Camelia" logo is still copyright Larry Wall, so it would allow Larry to still be connected to one of the programming languages that he helped get into the world.

EDIT: Damian Conway had persuasive reasons to use "Raku" instead of "Camelia". My proposal is therefore changed to use the name Raku instead.

@lizmat lizmat changed the title "Perl" in the name "Perl 6" is a source of confusion and irritation "Perl" in the name "Perl 6" is confusing and irritating Aug 8, 2019
@AlexDaniel AlexDaniel added the language label Aug 8, 2019
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@AlexDaniel AlexDaniel commented Aug 8, 2019

Because we don't have this type of tickets very often, here's a reminder of how it goes for solutions that require consensus, specifically for this ticket:

  • Changing the language name is a change to the language, so @jnthn will be directing the progress on this ticket.
  • Once a particular solution is chosen (e.g. Camelia), it'd need to be submitted as a pull request (once jnthn decides that the particular solution is worth trying). The pull request should at the very least tweak “Perl” mentions in the README.md, other requirements (if any) will be specified by jnthn.
  • Usually, more proposals are welcome right from the start, but I think in this case we should refrain from spamming more suggestions (something other than “Camelia”) unless jnthn really wants to look for a different name.
  • Everyone in this list will need to approve the change, and the idea is that as grown ups we should eventually get to the same decision through civil discussion. If you're not in that list but you're involved in this project and the change affects you significantly, you should submit a PR adding yourself.
  • This ticket will likely get a lot of comments, so please try to keep them small and on point.

Edit1: clarified that the PR is only needed later once jnthn is OK with the change
Edit2: recommend people to be short and on point

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@nxadm nxadm commented Aug 8, 2019

I agree wholeheartedly with @lizmat. The name Perl 6 dates from a time when the project had a completely different scope and timetable. Today, people outside the Perl echo chamber can't differentiate between Perl 5 and Perl 6, besides making the wrong --but obvious-- assumption the former is the old version and the latter the new one. Perl 6 is a new language with a smaller community and ecosystem compared to Perl 5, and like every new language needs to find its own way to a wider usage. This needs to be acknowledged: there is only so far you can go on the shoulder of the older language.

On one hand, Perl 5 is damaged by the startup status op Perl 6, not only because of the squatting of the next major number, but also because the new language can't yet deliver on what people expect from a top 10 language. Why would they give Perl 5 a chance when the latest version has a very small ecosystem and not a lot of jobs available yet? On the other hand, there is no denying that the popularity of Perl 5 is decreasing. Why would you try this hip new language when the main implementation is loosing mindshare?

@lizmat bets of the success of both languages, and who know, maybe it can be still one meta-community.

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@genehack genehack commented Aug 8, 2019

The video from Larry referenced by Liz in the ticket description can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2e0xSOHd-0

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@nige123 nige123 commented Aug 8, 2019

Here are some criteria for a good language name:

  • distinctive
  • shortish (< 6 characters)
  • good Google find-ability
  • command-line type-ability
  • easy to read
  • straightforward to pronounce
  • easy to spell
  • avoid hardwiring version numbers into the name (e.g., red6)
  • not cause confusion
  • not used by other major software projects / companies
  • not trademarked already (in international classes: 9, 16, 41, 42)

"Camelia" ticks many of these boxes, although I prefer something shorter to type at the command-line. I wonder if we can come up with something shorter?

shell> camelia hello.cml
shell> cml hello.ca
shell> cm hello.cma
shell> ca hello.ca

"raku" and "ofun" were two names that ticked all the boxes above.

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@RayMPerry RayMPerry commented Aug 8, 2019

I don't have much of a horse in this race - in fact, this is my first comment - but, regarding the previous comment, camelia doesn't necessarily need to be the name of the command-line tool. In D, they use either dmd/gdc/ldc or dub. Maybe the same concept could apply here?

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@vrurg vrurg commented Aug 8, 2019

Perhaps Camelia must not be a command line tool. Perhaps it has to be:

$ rakudo -v 
This is Rakudo version 2019.07.1-126-g90ffa349c built on MoarVM version 2019.07.1-72-g352ae27e4
implementing Camelia 6.d.

Anyway, renaming would result in so many different sorts of problems ranging in severity from "nah, nothing to worry about" to "oh, f*!" that compiler's name could simply be ignored as irrelevant.

As to the name itself. I personally don't care about it as I care more about the language itself. Yet, Camelia I like more than any other proposal so far. Actually, I just like it.

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@nxadm nxadm commented Aug 8, 2019

@vrurg That is pretty much what rakudo-pkg does for Linux packages (link "perl6" to "rakudo" and "raku"):

https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/blob/master/docker/pkg_rakudo.pl#L64

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@ajs ajs commented Aug 8, 2019

Here are some pros and cons that I don't see discussed above:

  • "Perl 6" as a name has been around just shy of 20 years. It has a lot of history both inside and outside of the Perl community. There are documents like the one I just published today (Your Regex Here that aren't within the scope of anything this proposal will change, leading to potential confusion for years to come.
  • Given the above timeline, imagine the proposal in the mid-2000s to change the name of perl (then Perl version 5) to LarryLang. The fact that that's a terrible name would not be in my top 10 reasons to dismiss the suggestion.
  • But on the positive, a name change means, in some sense, a clean break with the history. There's a sense that Perl 6 is "never done" and when it is done it seems wise to draw that line in the sand.
  • On the other hand, is it done? There's a pretty high signal boost in a name change, and if that signal-boosts "not done yet" then that's what this name will mean in the public consciousness forever.
  • It does start with "C", and I personally like the call-back to C in our ancestry.
  • I never saw a good analysis of why "Raku" seemed to fall so flat on the broader community.
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@wbraswell wbraswell commented Aug 8, 2019

I have already been promoting "Perl 6 AKA Raku", and I will be quite happy to promote "Perl 6 AKA Camelia" in the future, if this proposal is accepted. I will even be willing to drop the "Perl 6" eventually and just talk about "Camelia" as a language.

For the record, I like both names "Raku" and "Camelia", although I tend to agree with most everything @lizmat says (in general), so if she thinks "Camelia" is better then I will support this proposal 100%.

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@lindleyw lindleyw commented Aug 8, 2019

The right proposal at the right time.

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@tadzik tadzik commented Aug 8, 2019

Frankly, I don't think I agree.

The reality is confusing (and irritating) as you say – no doubt about that. In hindsight, it was probably a mistake to name Perl 6 “Perl 6”, or maybe it was a mistake to not actually replace Perl 5 in a reasonable timeframe. However, I think the damage is done and the ship has sailed. I think the confusion may be with us forever, and I really don't think that a name change is going to do anything about it.

I don't see how Perl 5 is going to benefit from this. We're freeing the name, yes. They're free to reuse the versions now in however way they like, yes. Are they going to name the successor to 5.30 “Perl 6”? Of course not – that would cause more confusion, make them look stupid and make whatever spiritual successor of Perl 6 we could think of look obsolete. Would they go up to Perl 7 with the next major change? Perhaps, but they can do that anyway: they're another grown-up language that can make its own decisions :)

I'm not convinced it would do anything to improve Perl 6's image either. Being Perl 6 is “standing on the shoulders of giants”. Perl is a strong brand. Many people have left it because of the version confusion, yes. But I don't imagine these people coming back to check out some new Camelia language that came out. They might however decide to give Perl 6 a shot if they start seeing some news about it – “oh, I was using Perl 15 years ago... is this still a thing? Is that new famous version finally being out and useful? I should check it out!”

Additionally, I think that aside from the potential benefits of the change we should consider the potential damage. Once the word gets out that “Perl 6 is no longer being developed”, do you think that this will do Perl 5 any good? The fact that their supposed replacement was “finally abandoned”? Then also, people who decide to check out Camelia years from now, aren't they going to think “oh, wait, that's that Perl 6 thing that was actually dropped” – or maybe “oh, that looks like some sort of a weird spin of this Perl 7 that came out recently”.

Especially considering the potential damage to both our languages and communities, I think at the very least the Perl 5 community should be consulted on this. I know some of them have previously expressed joy at the idea of “the freeing of the name”, often for dubious reasons, but I think the issue is bigger than just us and it's fair to consider the opinion of at least the Perl 5 pumpking – and ideally also the Perl 5 loosely defined “cabal” :)

Now, I get that this issue is brought up whenever a question or a myth or a problem of the popularity of Perl, 5 or 6, is brought up – and for an understandable reason. The name confusion is a marketing and a visibility problem. But is it really the problem? Isn't the renaming idea a micro-optimization of the image of Perl?

C and C++ don't seem to be bothered by it too much. Neither do C and D. Or C++ and C# (the latter of which I like to read as C-plus-plus-plus-plus ;)). Nobody doubts that C++ is alive, that C is still a thing etc. Nobody really considers either of them dead. And the reason for that, I think, is that both of them are very much visible in the programming world, and not just in their own bubbles (except for D, perhaps). There's still people who get confused at the idea of C and C++ – or Java and JavaScript – but those are not actual programmers who are interested in this thing. Nobody who follows the programming community (and the “market”) in any way would ever confuse any pair of these. I think that's because all of these languages have a strong enough presence that any name problem of theirs is not really a problem at all.

I feel like the name debate gets brought up – by both sides – as a scapegoat of bigger issues. The reason why Perl 5 is considered dead is because the overwhelming majority of those considerers haven't seen Perl 5 being used in the last 10 years – and probably haven't seen a Perl 5 programmer either. Same goes for Perl 6 – it's hard to argue that Perl 6 is finished and ready when a single hand is more than enough to count the real-world uses of it. These issues will not go away with the rename. Perl, the old Perl 5, will still need to prove itself as the “still alive and better than ever”. Camelia, the old Perl 6, will still need to prove that it's a relevant language in a saturated programming market – and this time without the existing brand recognition and legacy that it has. A new name is not a killer app.

I think the renaming would do more harm than good. I'm not convinced that it will by itself change anything in the public image – whoever cares about Perl already knows the difference, and whoever does not care will not even bother to read the renaming announcements. If the Perl family of languages are to make – and enlarge – their impact on the world it has to be done with code, not words – semantics, not syntax, if you pardon the awful pun.

In any case, if Perl 6 is indeed to be renamed, I'd rather if it took a side turn rather than teleporting completely elsewhere. A name like “Perlsix” would still, imho, pass all the tests in our naming test suite, while it would also show pride of our legacy rather than running away from it. The world and the market of programming languages is crowded and cruel. I think we stand a better chance as a two-headed monster than by marking one of us as “finally not even meant to be replaced” and hiding the other in the obscurity by essentially starting the branding effort from scratch.

I hope that you, the people who actually make Perl 6 a reality, don't mind my use of “we” on this wall of text :) I love you all, and I trust you'll make the right call, whatever that call might be. I just felt like reacting with more than a glorified “:/” emoji ;)

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@jberger jberger commented Aug 8, 2019

Are they going to name the successor to 5.30 “Perl 6”? Of course not – that would cause more confusion, make them look stupid and make whatever spiritual successor of Perl 6 we could think of look obsolete. Would they go up to Perl 7 with the next major change? Perhaps, but they can do that anyway: they're another grown-up language that can make its own decisions :)

I hope that this proposal, which I support, doesn't get derailed by how Perl 5 will respond to it. Clearly though, it will need to do some corresponding change to un-confuse the story from that side as well. Certainly the number 6 would never be used. I would propose doing what Java did and "promote" the "minor" version number. In that way Camelia could live in harmony with Perl 32 or whatever the current minor release is when it happens and there would be plenty of intellectual space between 6 and 32 or whatever that hopefully no one is confused by that going forward. Of course that's not my call either and it will be up to p5p to make whatever choice they feel will break the marketing log jam and help both languages assert their "not dead"-ness to the world at large, which I think we all agree, is the goal, even if we sometimes differ on how to get there.

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@Grinnz Grinnz commented Aug 8, 2019

Especially considering the potential damage to both our languages and communities, I think at the very least the Perl 5 community should be consulted on this. I know some of them have previously expressed joy at the idea of “the freeing of the name”, often for dubious reasons, but I think the issue is bigger than just us and it's fair to consider the opinion of at least the Perl 5 pumpking – and ideally also the Perl 5 loosely defined “cabal” :)

I will stay out of this except to say, from the side of the Perl 5 "cabal", I wholeheartedly support this proposal and the potential "damages" you cite to Perl 5 are in my opinion non-issues, especially compared to the damage that continues to be done by "Perl 6" existing officially. Proper marketing is everything.

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@Kaiepi Kaiepi commented Aug 8, 2019

They might however decide to give Perl 6 a shot if they start seeing some news about it – “oh, I was using Perl 15 years ago... is this still a thing? Is that new famous version finally being out and useful? I should check it out!”

The language being called Perl 6 may be beneficial for swaying former Perl users to use it, but what about people that have never used Perl before? I find the opposite is the case most of the time; people don't want to try Perl 6 because they see Perl and think "oh that's that write-only language" when Perl 6 doesn't have that issue at all. Perl's a strong brand, sure, but we can't ignore the reputation it's gained among people that don't use it.

FTR, I'm still undecided as to whether or not I support this.

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@vrurg vrurg commented Aug 8, 2019

Evolution vs. revolution... Such abrupt name change being done at once is a revolution. While sometimes revolutions bring changes for better, they're always harmful and painful. Evolution takes longer and may end up in a dead end, but it's usually more reliable process and provides more stable results.

Here is what I mean by that. Maybe we must do what was supposed to be done for Raku? Make it Perl 6 Camelia and just give it a chance. If over time Camelia takes over then this is how things are supposed to be. And if not – Perl 6 will thrive forever.

In either case, Perl 6 is occupied now and forever. It will most assuredly remain in the sources and many docs for long if not forever. Barely anybody would bother renaming their scripts and modules changing extensions – so, .pm6, and .p6, and alikes would stick around.

One things I know for sure: this proposal must be the last of its kind. This discussion itself brings in more harm then any name attached to the language.

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@nxadm nxadm commented Aug 8, 2019

Here is what I mean by that. Maybe we must do what was supposed to be done for Raku? Make it Perl 6 Camelia and just give it a chance. If over time Camelia takes over then this is how things are supposed to be. And if not – Perl 6 will thrive forever.

If there is something I would oppose, is going for a do-over of a (well intended) failure. Rename and let both languages grow or, just do nothing acknowledge the consequences. But rehashing the same discussion every six months and picking non-solutions hasn't worked for many years, being narratives of broken analogies ("sister languages) or something that completely neglects to work on the problem ("a name with Perl in it").

@zoffixznet's alias plan made sense then because it was meant as a first step for a renaming when people's mind weren't open yet to the idea. Listening to the Perl 5 Pumpkin's talk at TPC-USA made one thing very clear for me: the Perl 5 people are moving on, and Perl 6 is not part of the roadmap.

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@tony-o tony-o commented Aug 8, 2019

@nxadm the alias was a worst of both worlds compromise. We need to either rename the lang or stop discussing it, the cyclical [re]discussion is most of the damage at this point.

@tadzik's suggestion for a name (if we rename) lgtm but, whatever, not like I'm going to stop contributing either way.

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@kentfredric kentfredric commented Aug 8, 2019

I'm not raising any objections, however, 2 things to consider:

  1. Camelia is usually spelt with 2 "L"'s (with only one notable exception in wikipedia), not 1, and this could potentially be a place for repeated and predictable mistakes.
  2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camellia_%28cipher%29
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@JJ JJ commented Aug 8, 2019

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@thoughtstream thoughtstream commented Aug 9, 2019

I'm long on the record as being in favour of a different name.

And I have no particular objection to the name "Camelia", which has good
searchability and strong associations with both Perl 5 and Perl 6.

But I'm nervous about voting on this proposal without at least a
brief discussion on the actual name we choose. It feels like we're
being offered a either/or choice: "Perl 6" or "Camelia",
without any consideration of other possibilities.

I don't mean to suggest that Liz hasn't considered those other possibilities,
or that there haven't been similar discussions previously, or that Liz's point
about starting from scratch with some other name isn't very well made.
And I certainly understand the psychological benefits of making this a simple
fait accompli.

But if this change is really happening, and if this discussion is going to
decide that, and if this language really is to be a hundred-year language,
then I still feel we ought to at least consider some alternatives as part of
this conversation. As, indeed, several other contributors have already done.

In particular, I think we need to discuss whether "Raku", the
alternative name Larry proposed, is a viable possibility. It is
substantially shorter than "Camelia" (and hits the 4-character sweet
spot), it's slightly more searchable, has pleasant associations of
"comfort" or "ease" in its original Japanese, in which language it
even looks a litte like our butterfly mascot: 楽. It also makes the
"Rakudo" compiler mean "The Way of Raku". On the other hand, Google
Translate claims "raku" means "sheep" in various African dialects,
"rags" in yet another, and "cancer" in Serbian. :-(

I fully agree that "Rakudo" itself is out-of-bounds, as it's already
firmly established as the name of the pre-eminent compiler for the language,
and we definitely want to preserve the linguistic distinction between
the language and its various implementations.

Liz also mentioned an alias I have previously used when teaching
Perl 6: "Albus". This is not Harry Potter reference (though the
"World's Greatest Wizard" association doesn't necessary hurt), but rather
it's the Latin word for a pearl (and also means "clean" or "shiny"
or "auspicious"). It's also shorter than "Camelia", more searchable
than either "Camelia" or "Raku", and has no negative connations that
I can find in other languages. On the other hand, there that "kindly,
old, slightly loopy eccentric" association from Harry Potter as well.

Another name I have previously suggested is "Zeta", which is the sixth
letter of the modern Greek alphabet, and also the name in many European
dialects of the letter 'Z': a fitting association for the "ultimate
programming language". Curiously, its numerical value in Greek is 7
(it was the seventh letter in Ancient Greek), but maybe that covers us
going forward too? It's short, has no negative linguistic associations,
but it's not especially searchable (being swamped by the Riemann Zeta
Function). It has a cool looking symbol (ζ), which we could claim was
pronounced "The Language Formerly Known As Perl 6". There's a slight
clash with the 1980s ZetaLisp programming language...though everyone who
cares about that is probably now either retired or insane. ;-)

There have been numerous other suggestions as well, of course.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that we particularly need to
debate all (or even many) of them, nor ultimately to choose anything
other than "Camelia". I just think that we ought to consider the
possibilities before we make so significant a change. Not my suggestions
especially, but at very least Larry's preferred alternative of "Raku".

After all, imagine if "Amazon" had persisted with Bezos' first choice of
"Cadabra", if "Friends" had gone with the pitched title of "Insomnia Cafe",
if "Black Sabbath" had stuck with their original "The Polka Tulk Blues Band",
or if "Brexit" had remained "TaxAvoidancexit", or "Bigotrentrance", or
"To(r)yStory", or "ShortingThePound", or "DroolBrittania"?

Seriously, though, rebranding and relaunching this 20-year project is a huge
opportunity...and risk. And, in this case, a vastly emotional and emotive
one as well. We're on the right course, in my opinion, but should take
all the time we need, and examine all the possibilities we can,
to ensure we get it right.

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@FCO FCO commented Aug 9, 2019

I like ofun

Sent with GitHawk

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@nxadm nxadm commented Aug 9, 2019

I think a core part of @lizmat 's proposal (and the course of action proposed by @AlexDaniel) is short-cutting a hypothetical never-ending discussion about the name before a decision is taken on the principle. She plays it safe and provides a default choice in case we're paralyzed and stuck in choice discussion for ever. This way she acknowledges people that would be OK for renaming if most people agree, but are allergic to the expected bikeshedding and the corresponding stress and waste of energy.

I am not fond of the Camelia name myself because I am one of those people that dislike the mascot, but even then the name it's a good solution the problem in my eyes. @lizmat 's talk makes it also very clear she's OK with other names. So I would suggest, like @AlexDaniel, to try not converting this thread in a premature search of the best name (we've have had plenty of those in the past). Let's agree (or disagree) on the principle. So if you're OK with a rename, but object to the name (of have reservation), just state your stand and add a note that you would prefer further discussion on the specific choice.

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@JJ JJ commented Aug 9, 2019

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@nige123 nige123 commented Aug 9, 2019

Honest brands are good. An honest brand means clearer communication, trust and authenticity.

The honest truth is Perl 6 is a dialect of Perl - and that's something not to be embarrassed about. I'd like to keep all those good Perlish associations (e.g., Larry, TMTOWTDI, whipupitude, expressivity, practicality etc) and retain Perl in the description of the language.

For example:

  • camelia is a Perl dialect optimised to make programming fun.
  • ofun is a Perl dialect optimised to make programming fun.
  • raku is a Perl dialect optimised to make programming fun.

I prefer ofun as it 'runs deep' in Perl 6 history and sums up what it feels like to use the language and it's slightly irreverent towards computational complexity - this is a language for humans first and computers second.

Edit:

ofun works well in combination with Camilia the butterfly mascot. The strong sounding raku is less of a match.

ofun takes less time to type than python, ocaml or go run.

Update:

After considering some of the thoughtful comments below - I've changed my mind regarding ofun and now prefer raku.

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@duncand duncand commented Aug 9, 2019

I would be quite happy with the name "Camelia", and I like it more than most other suggestions.

For anyone saying that's too long a name, I strongly disagree. This is only 7 characters and a single word, it is extremely easy to type and to say. I think trying to get under 6 characters such as @nige123 hopes for would dismiss too many good options without any gain.

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@duncand duncand commented Aug 9, 2019

Perl 5 should just do what Java did early on when Java 1.2 was called Java 2, and so on.

Call the next major release Perl version 32, and so on.

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@kuituhirvi kuituhirvi commented Sep 13, 2019

Since my last comment was marked outdated, for reasons that are non-obvious for me, I would like to be given a change to reason why I made such a comment in the first place. I do not think the name matters, but understand that sometimes (quite common ie. champagne) they have a purpose and a meaning. If something were to already possess a name, changing it is an arduous process and therefore requires solid reasons.

Simple cost analysis would strongly argue against such an endeavour. Birthing a language is cheap, literally anyone can afford it, nurturing it to be a good one seems to me more expensive. Therefore just creating a "raku" language would save resources compared to changing the name of Perl 6.

But the biggest object remains, a simple namespace collision, meaning that the rights to use chinese character of raku has already been given in the 1600. Albeit by a japanese emperor Hideyoshi to Jokei, a Kyoto based potterer, but still it was exclusively given by the powers that be. Now there might not be any rules against using that character in the name of a product but for me it is in fact already in production.

"The Japanese master had great objections against naming the work of these Americans Raku because of the lack of Zen philosophy. Raku in the original meaning was an intrinsic part of that philosophy. Then Soldner was willing to promote his work on the market as Soldner-ceramics but it was too late, his ceramics became known as American-Raku."

http://www.rolandsummer.at/aerts.E.htm

Now this is from the realm of glazing pottery, but the point remains valid, this name or character
is not yours to give. So I urge you to have decency, be considerate of others and remain disciplined in this journey. Thus far there have been, to my knowledge, zero-efforts at creating a more exhaustive search method or an algorithm.

From Wiktionary.org;
Raku

(ceramics) A style of Japanese pottery, considered the traditional style for the pottery used in the Japanese tea ceremony; (especially capitalised) such pottery made by the Raku family.
The English transliteration of a Japanese surname; specifically, that of the family traditionally licensed to manufacture the pottery.

So a minimum requirement would be a permission to use their now family name:
https://www.raku-yaki.or.jp/e/raku_family/index.html

If four ASCII-characters long string, first letter capitalised, is what you seek I am certain that all collisions could be avoided. Of course similarly perl was a word used by one french printer to call his miniature versions, but it lacks the specific capitulation and the word was not his to use (meaning it was not given by any authorities, the printer just took it and ran).

Sincerely,
Joonas.

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@lizmat lizmat commented Sep 13, 2019

@kuituhirvi

So a minimum requirement would be a permission to use their now family name:

The same could have been said for using the word "Perl", which is mightily confusing for the inhabitants of the city of Perl in Germany. Likewise for the people of Rust in Germany for "Rust". Or for the people of Raku, Hakone, Kanagawa, Japan for "Raku".

the lack of Zen philosophy

Perl 6 (Raku) has a Zen-slice and a Mu type. That makes it way more Zen than any other programming language.

it was exclusively given by the powers that be

For pottery, for use by a potter's family. Perl 6 (Raku) is a programming language. I'm pretty sure the emperor would not have liked the family preventing the use of "Raku" for anything else than pottery. That would have gone against the emperors prerogative. So, by that logic, we should ask the Japanese emperor for the right to use the word "Raku" for a programming language. That might have been a thing in the 1600's, but I don't think that would be a thing in the 21st century.

I think the trademark aspects have been covered earlier in this discussion.

EDIT: removed the incorrect "outdated automatically" remark and unhid the comment in question.

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@AlexDaniel AlexDaniel commented Sep 13, 2019

This is a technical thing afaik, because we're (ab)using Github issues for this. Because changes were made to the issue after your comment, you comment was marked outdated.

No, this is not the pull request. The comment looked like trolling to me, or at least as outdated nonsense. I did hide it manually.

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@AnaTofuZ AnaTofuZ commented Sep 16, 2019

Since there is no place name named “Raku” in Japan, it seems that the place name collision is okay.
https://chimei.jitenon.jp/data/sakuin.php?search=id&gojuon=らく

Raku in Hakone, Kanagawa, seems to be the name of a ryokan (Japanese inn )

In Japan, there is “Nadeshiko” for programming languages ​​using Japanese words.
https://nadesi.com/top/
“Nadeshiko” itself is a Japanese word who is used to honor the simple and beautiful beauty of Japanese women.
However, if a programmer uses the word "Nadeshiko", it is basically interpreted as a programming language name depending on the context.
For this reason, many Japanese programmers will not misunderstand the name "Raku". Rather, I am happy because the name of “Raku” comes from my native language Japanese.

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@eaporreo eaporreo commented Sep 16, 2019

Hi all, I like Perl, used perl in past, not now, but I use linux, and perl is very inside it, along with LAMPP stack.
Other languages grow without name change, so, changing name to Perl looks like it is not very effective to get more people to adopt it.
But, if you want, chage it, I think result of number of users will be the same, or less perhaps.

Regards,
Eduardo from Argentina.

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@kalkin kalkin commented Sep 16, 2019

This PR started with good intentions by @lizmat, but now it ends up as a fine example for bikeshedding. There're a few technical details which must be discussed, like file name extensions, but this can be done in other PRs. Imho everything was said and some one with higher power has to make a judgment call or flip a coin.

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@niceperl niceperl commented Sep 17, 2019

The new name I really like: "wall"
It's a tribute to Larry (although he probably doesn't like it very much)

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@sbakker sbakker commented Sep 17, 2019

FWIW, with Camelia as the name, you can call the CLI command camel, which provides a nice link back to its origin.

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@kuituhirvi kuituhirvi commented Sep 17, 2019

I would like to preface the comment with that it this is only a conversation, in my mind worth having, and someone else might find it otherwise participation is not enforced. And as to all these comments, they are written by a powerless minority, so please do not strike someone already down.

The same could have been said for using the word "Perl", which is mightily confusing for the inhabitants of the city of Perl in Germany.

Thank you for this piece of knowledge and this in my experience well reflects the SEO nightmare of having tech savvy people adopt your name. I've modified my earlier proposal accordingly, because you are correct that is not good behaviour. The scope and reach of the project was a little different when it was named.

I'm pretty sure the emperor would not have liked the family preventing the use of "Raku" for anything else than pottery. That would have gone against the emperors prerogative. So, by that logic, we should ask the Japanese emperor for the right to use the word "Raku" for a programming language.

Intuition should only be relied upon when actual knowledge is not available. Im sure Emperor Reiwa would gladly respond to request about the meanings of his ancestors actions.

That might have been a thing in the 1600's, but I don't think that would be a thing in the 21st century.

I do not find things have so much changed in the past decades. The current Emperor is from the line of succession that started when the years value was a negative one and the potterer family is the same succession line since 1600's also. Inheritance suggest their relationship remains the same.

I think the trademark aspects have been covered earlier in this discussion.

Being merely lawful is such a low standard to adhere to. I still find myself having a high level of respect towards this family of takumi artists.

EDIT: removed the incorrect "outdated automatically" remark and unhid the comment in question.

Much appreciated. I understand why it was seen provocative, but having giving it all the thought humanely possible, and even more so following the guideline: "This ticket will likely get a lot of comments, so please try to keep them small and on point.", I truly am glad that it was unhid.
perhonen
This is an emblem representing the concept of a butterfly. I add it here hopefully as a symbol of operating in good faith.
Sincerely,
Joonas.

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@wbraswell wbraswell commented Sep 21, 2019

@lizmat
I see your new pull request...
#89

Has an official decision already been made to permanently rename "Perl 6" to "Raku"???

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@JJ JJ commented Sep 21, 2019

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@andricik andricik commented Oct 8, 2019

Rename? That would be Perlfect!

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@AlexDaniel AlexDaniel commented Oct 9, 2019

Please see the update on the PR here: #89 (comment)

Basically, if everything goes smooth then it will be merged on October 14th, and you will see the rename come into effect shortly after that.

This is not just a proposal. It is actually going to happen next week unless there are objections from reviewers.

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@AlexDaniel AlexDaniel commented Oct 9, 2019

Also, to know what's actually going to change and how, please see the document.

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@wbraswell wbraswell commented Oct 9, 2019

@AlexDaniel
Thank you for the update.
We are all very hopeful that the rename to Raku will be successful, and that the Perl and Raku communities will coexist in friendship for the next 100+ years! :-)

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@lizmat lizmat commented Oct 14, 2019

Since the PR got merged, going to close this issue now. Thanks everybody for their cooperation. Hugs to those who didn't see it working out their way.

@lizmat lizmat closed this Oct 14, 2019
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@wbraswell wbraswell commented Oct 14, 2019

@lizmat
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!
You are probably the only person on Earth who could have achieved this major milestone.
Now we just need to remind ourselves that Perl and Raku should live together in peace and friendship, as both languages are still considered to be "members of the Perl family of languages".
:-)

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@duanemoody duanemoody commented Oct 14, 2019

God help us if this language ever forks again.

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@vendethiel vendethiel commented Oct 14, 2019

God help us if this language ever forks again.

There was no forking involved here.

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@kawaii kawaii commented Oct 14, 2019

God help us if this language ever forks again.

Patiently awaiting the people who come along and fork Raku back to Perl 6. :)

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@aimass aimass commented Oct 17, 2019

+1 for Camelia

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@AlexDaniel AlexDaniel commented Oct 17, 2019

@aimass Yep. Which comment are you at right now? We recently had this merged. TL;DR it's Raku now.

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@vrurg vrurg commented Oct 17, 2019

@AlexDaniel don't spoil! Ah, too late...

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@duncand duncand commented Oct 17, 2019

I suggest a relevant owner/admin also block further commenting on this issue since closing it didn't do that.

@perl6 perl6 locked as resolved and limited conversation to collaborators Oct 17, 2019
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@JJ JJ commented Oct 17, 2019

@duncand done. People with privs will still be able to participate, though...

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