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ruleant: phpMyAdmin meeting in 5 minutes, agenda can be found here :
ruleant: one minute, is everyone here?
mynetx: Hello there
nijel: hi everybody
madhuracj: Hi all
mynetx: Notice: I may have to disappear after 15 minutes.
nijel: mynetx: do you want to start with some particular topic?
mynetx: Swapping topics 1 and 2 is fine.
ruleant: I don't see Rouslan online
ruleant: ibennetch are you there?
mynetx: ibennetch is marked as afk
nijel: ruleant: I think we can start even if not everybody is online, we would then have no meeting at all
ruleant: @nijel, yes I know Just checking who's here
– blognewb se připojil do místnosti
ruleant: I propose to start
nijel: yes, go ahead
ruleant: who makes the report?
– blognewb se odpojil (Client Quit)
nijel: if nobody else wants I can again write the report
madhuracj: ibennetch seems to be online now
ruleant: @nijel you did it last time, I will make notes
nijel: ruleant: thanks
Marc9will start calling topics and Isaac can take over
madhuracj: sorry my mistake
Marc9: 2. Mobile readiness
ruleant: First point : mobile readiness, any comments
Marc9gives control to ruleant to call topics starting and ending
mynetx: my comments see Agenda
nijel: I think having mobile version would be great, but do we have manpower for that?
nijel: Maybe it's something GSoC student could do next year?
Marc9: mynetx do you see this as a good GSoC 2014 project?
mynetx: This is more than we ourselves could do, so: Yes
ruleant: how much work would this be?
mynetx: Depends on the approach to take
nijel: I think with some minor adjustments in code it could be just another theme...
mynetx: And whether any UI structure needs to be changed
mynetx: I vote for editing the current default pmahomme theme
ruleant: agree that having a specific mobile-ready theme would help
ruleant: but I'm worried about the navigation
mynetx: Responsive CSS means that for desktop users, no difference is visible
Marc9: mynetx you mean adapting the existing pmahomme?
ruleant: navigation tree, I mean
mynetx: I mean that. Navigation tree is something complex to solve
nijel: responsive CSS would be indeed nicer, though it's probably more work
mynetx: More comments from others?
ibennetch: gah, I'm late
mynetx: Don't worry, welcome Isaac.
mynetx: We swapped Agenda 1 and 2.
mynetx: Outsourcing mobile template as GSoC 2014 project—good or bad?
Marc9: "template" is vague
madhuracj: Sorry about the delay. I think mobile version is a good idea and agree that GSoC 2014 is indeed the way to go about it
ruleant: I'm in favor to make it a GSoC project, but I'm not sure if it would fit the GSoC project timeframe
mynetx: 3 months, it was?
ruleant: yes, twelve weeks
nijel: Also note that GSoC is about code and themes might be problematic here..
Marc9: It can be a subproject, like we did with Kasun
mynetx: Question being, does Google Melange consider responsive CSS (media queries) "code"?
Marc9: From the answers I got, no
nijel: AFAIK this was discussed on mentors mailing list this year and generally the answer seemed to be no
madhuracj: Maybe mentors can get a better clarrification at the mentor summit
Marc9: answers on the mentors mailing list
mynetx: OK. Delaying this topic till November?
Marc9: we can try to discuss this at the summit
nijel: On the other side, I think that more changes will be needed than CSS...
ibennetch: Sounds wise, we can get more clarification from the mentor summit and move forward after we know more
zixtor: We can also discuss this on devel mailing list in longer term
nijel: okay, let's postpone this
ruleant: shouldn't we first know how we would make pma mobile-friendly?
Marc9: Does someone on the team have experience with that?
zixtor: maybe reducing number of features to just essential ones
mynetx: zixtor: One approach, yes. Admins on phones/tablets, what do they want to administer? Good question. For our devel mailing list, I suggest.
Marc9: Almost 1/3 of the hour spent on one topic
mynetx: Yes. Hence my suggestion.
ibennetch: But as a team we're all certain that we desire a mobile-ready version at some point? I think that's a good place to start, we can work through implementation details later
zixtor: should we pass this topic to devel list?
ibennetch: Yes, I agree we should move on
nijel: yes, move on
ruleant: ok : discussion postponed to devel-list or wiki
ruleant: next point : conservancy
ruleant: do we need a seperate bank account?
Marc9: sub-question: do we plan to keep at least 3500$ in it?
ibennetch: I don't see a need. Sounds like we'll lose out on the interest generated by our fund, if I'm recalling the email correctly, but that's rather insignificant IMHO
nijel: I also don't see big need for this
ruleant: i agree with isaac
mynetx: Not sure if $3500 is about balance or income per timeframe
mynetx: Interest is minor advantage compared to expenses for the account imo.
ibennetch: My interpretation and standard US banking terms would tend to make that balance rather than income
Marc9: Balance should be low if we continue physical team meetings
nijel: indeed I'd prefer to spend money on useful things than keeping them on the account
mynetx: Consense reached?
ruleant: conclusion : no need for seperate account
Marc9: ok for me
ruleant: next question, missionfish
nijel: basically we can get it for free with just some publicity
ruleant: but they take a %
ibennetch: About MissionFish: I've never heard of it before, so I have no desire to accept donations through them. Sounds like a niche thing anyway, someone selling on ebay must elect to donate their sales revenue
mynetx: How many people do?
ibennetch: If someone wishes to donate, they may as well just give us money. Unless I'm severely missing the point
mynetx: tbh I never heard of MissionFish
nijel: the point is that you donate part of what you would have paid to ebay otherwise
Marc9: nijel, did Conservancy tell you whether it works well for other projects?
nijel: at least that's how I understood it ... though I've never heard about MissionFish so far as well
nijel: Marc9: I did not ask, but I can ... so let's postpone this decision until we know more?
ruleant: i didn't hear of it either, but I've seen similar setups
Marc9: moving on?
ruleant: SF.net has a charity option (% of a donation to a project going to a charity)
mynetx: Does pma receive donations via SF?
nijel: ruleant: they had, but they no longer process donations, they go directly through paypal
ruleant: ok, next point : auto-updater
mynetx: Makes sense imo - as seen in WP. Helps users to stay on top of the releases
zixtor: Useful feature to have for those who have privileges..
nijel: useful feature, but I'm afraid it won't work on majority of installations due to privileges
Marc9: As I already wrote, having the necessary privileges opens a security hole
Marc9: and even suggesting to open this hole is not a good idea, IMO
Marc9: we have to allocate our resources for features that will help a majority of users
– zixtor se odpojil (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
nijel: also we would have to do some sort of verification of updated version - probably by checking signature and signing our releases, otherwise it would be probably too easy to misuse
ruleant: and for packaged versions of pma, this feature would be disabled
ibennetch: What if we use FTP rather than direct file system access -- as long as the webserver is able to be accessed by FTP, we can upload new files without creating additional security risk (I think, anyway)
Marc9: ruleant, you means distros
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Marc9: ibennetch: the user's web server needs the write privilege
nijel: ibennetch: FTP is even less secure (not encrypted passwords...)
ruleant: both distro's and things like XAMPP, cPanel, ...
mynetx: FTP upload to localhost should not be a problem imo, regarding passwords.
ruleant: conclusion : no, because of security issues?
madhuracj: Since we will have a very limited people using this feature with these constraints, is this still worth the effort?
nijel: I think letting user know there is an update is enough, auto update is either too complex or too fragile from security POV
zixtor: agreed, letting know is fine
mynetx: I do see the difference, where WordPress admins are usually in control over their servers
ibennetch: Ideally I think it would be a great feature, but from a practical aspect it's not worth the development effort to due security risks and most users not being able to use it anyway
Marc9is in control of my servers but still does not want to give write privilege to the web server's process
mynetx: Agreed with you. The cost:advantage factor in team devpower, and in % of users using the feature, is too low.
ruleant: ok, next point : GSoC feedback
Marc9: about GSoC, I don't see a big rush from our students to continue contributing
ibennetch: GSoC was excellent for me this year. I have nothing special to report nor any changes to suggest for next year.
nijel: I agree with Marc9, though it might be related to school start as well, it always takes some time...
ibennetch: Part of that could be that the university term has started again
ruleant: that, and they spent 3 months full time working on pma
mynetx: Will we continue to increase our dev team each year with GSoC students?
nijel: mynetx: that's IMHO best thing on GSoC
ruleant: @mynetx : one of (our) objectives for GSoC is to attrack new developers...
Marc9: mynetx the main goal is to increase the number of active team members
ibennetch: I guess time will tell. We've had what I consider to be success in the past, so even if none of the students from 2013 continue with the project I still think it's worth participating.
mynetx: Side-question: Who is Piotr Przybylski. He has write-access but I did not see anything in ages?
Marc9: mynetx: see the credits in doc
ruleant: GSoC student from 2008, 2010 and 2011
mynetx: OK marc9 thanks
Marc9: I just asked him to help for a bug, he's working on it
Marc9: I'll continue to ask for specific tasks from my two students, as I sometimes do from my past students
nijel: btw: not sure if you've noticed it, but GSoC for next year has been already announced
ruleant: I suggest to ask this year's GSoC students if they plan to contribute to pma
madhuracj: Since most of them have expressed their interest when asked, probably we can ask them to fix bugs related to their code when they appear as a starting point
nijel: I think it's good to keep in touch with them
zixtor: I think we should give more attention to the "After GSoC" page..
zixtor: atleast for next year now
Marc9: madhuracj, yes I'm already doing that
Marc9: zixtor, what's missing on that page?
ruleant: we're still waiting on some testimonials from previous GSoC students...
zixtor: testimonials , which I also forgot to add..
madhuracj: I'll try to find time for that
Marc9: ah right
zixtor: I'll do that too
Marc9: Supun told me that he wants to work on bugs
ruleant: @ nijel, yes I noticed that GSoC 2014 is announced
Marc9: The same with Bin Zu
Marc9: so I'll feed them some bugs
mynetx: Anything to mention on mentor summit?
ruleant: OK, we could start making promotion for GSoC 2014 already, but I suggest to start this after the summit
nijel: it's too early indeed
Marc9: Before making promotion, we must prepare a list of ideas
nijel: Marc9: I was just writing the same
ruleant: @Marc9 and nijel, yes
mynetx: Moving on?
mynetx: Side note: I feel that 1hr per month is slightly short for the amount of ideas we got .)
madhuracj: Can't agree more.
ruleant: next point : serverfault.com
nijel: mynetx: I think it will get better in future, right now there is simply too much
madhuracj: But it was hard to find a time slot that suits us all
Marc9: I could be available twice a month
mynetx: marc9 agree++
Marc9: About serverfault, any objection to my suggestion?
ibennetch: no, that seems reasonable
mynetx: Should we talk about the 4.2 roadmap, please assign one of the ideas to me for working on it. Need to leave now...
ruleant: good idea
nijel: Marc9: it seems reasonable
madhuracj: Yes, sounds good
Marc9: but honestly I would not monitor these questions on serverfault
mynetx: Serverfault questions can always be solved by any server-savvy people
Marc9: anyway they are not directly related to our "mission"
Marc9: ok I'll prepare the changes on the support page
ruleant: ok, thanks marc
ruleant: next point : audio notification
nijel: I find it annoying
Marc9: good bye mynetx
madhuracj: I also find it quite annoying
Marc9: yes, me too, quite annoying
zixtor: me too
mynetx: SQL queries won't take longer than few seconds, so where is the point of not waiting?
Marc9: I had to try it
mynetx: Also, my sound is disabled anyways.
Marc9: ok, nijel, can you close this pull request?
nijel: okay, will close it
ruleant: I only see the point for very long queries or imports
Marc9: moving on?
ruleant: next point : roadmap
mynetx: audio: Got an idea. Will work on a pull request sometime this week. (Changing favicon if focus lost and query done, changing back on focus back.)
nijel: the error reporting is not working (not reporting to the server), not sure if this is a blocker
mynetx: Feedback from the student?
nijel: I've reported to the bugtracker only so far...
Marc9: Can the main mentor contact the student?
zixtor: Yes, we should notify him..
ruleant: main mentor is not here.
ruleant: But I'll do it
nijel: okay, thanks ruleant
mynetx: Let's set up -beta1 to next weekend, so there is 10 days to get that sorted?
Marc9: Also, do you see (like I do sometimes) messages from this module at screen bottom?
ruleant: what is the ID of the issue?
nijel: but some others are imo also imporant:
Marc9: mynetx, you forget GSoC summit
nijel: Marc9: so let's leave it to week(end) after summit
Marc9: so I would prefer in 7 days (but IMO this problem is not a blocker)
mynetx: Agreed too.
nijel: if we want to have this feature in 4.1 it should get some testing during betas, though it can probably wait for beta2
Marc9: madhuracj as the bugs coordinator, anything to say about blockers?
mynetx: ruleant and others: Do we want to add 10 minutes for the trademark topic?
zixtor: Fine by me
madhuracj: @Marc: I did not see any major blockers. But will take time to go throught them again and let you all know
ruleant: 10 minutes, fine by me
mynetx: Some public data for the error reporting would be helpful methinks.
mynetx: I need to leave, please discuss the last topic without me.
nijel: okay, bye mynetx
zixtor: bye mynetx
ibennetch: I have plenty of time today
ruleant: @mynetx, what do you mean by public data?
nijel: probably some real reports on the server?
Marc9: madhuracj: ok, it will become more important at the release candidate stage
nijel: so what about trademark?
ruleant: so, at what point do we create a seperate branch? And when do we block updates to strings?
Marc9: we should follow the advice of the Conservancy who are in favor
Marc9: ruleant: at rc1 I guess
nijel: ruleant, Marc9: rc1 sounds good, though we should not do any big changes now as well
Marc9: master is feature frozen
ibennetch: I think we should register the trademark.
Marc9: let's discuss trademarks
nijel: I think we should register trademark as well, any objections?
ibennetch: If nothing else, it will protect us in the future from someone else registering and trying to force us to change our name
ruleant: to summarize : master feature frozen and no big changes until rc1, then strings are frozen in the new branch
ruleant: registering is a good idea
ibennetch: Plus it will allow Conservancy to better protect the brand if there's a problem. We can further discuss how liberal to be with other projects
Marc9: Note that it's "only" in the USA
nijel: yes, trademark policy is another big topic, but let's ignore it for now
ibennetch: For instance, I don't see a problem with "phpPgAdmin"
nijel: ibennetch: and what about phpMoAdmin?
ruleant: I don't have a problem with phpMoAdmin
zixtor: What if someone out of USA uses our name ?
nijel: okay, we seem to agree on this as well
madhuracj: Me neither
ruleant: I do have a problem with websites who pose as phpMyAdmin
Marc9: zixtor, this trademark registration is only for the USA
zixtor: Marc9, right, it's difficult to have it worldwide
ruleant: and having phpMyAdmin trademarked, can help us there
Marc9: zixtor, and costly
ruleant: @zixtor : especially, time and moneyconsuming
madhuracj: @ruleant: are there any such site online currently
ibennetch: We may wish to see what Tony at Conservancy advises, too, as far as how much to allow other projects to use a similar name.
Marc9: madhuracj, phpmyadmin.org and .com
ibennetch: Perhaps Conservancy can offer some help with the international problem
ibennetch: Have we approached the .org and .com owner to see whether they're willing to sell to us?
Marc9: ibennetch, price tag seems to start at 30K USD
nijel: I'll have to leave now...
Marc9has to leave to
ruleant: bye michal
madhuracj: Bye Michal
ibennetch: 30k is way out of line
ibennetch: thanks for sticking around later than planned
ruleant: @ibennetcg, yes the question is how much legal action would cost to get those domains...
ruleant: thanks, guys for attending, see you next month
ibennetch: So just to summarize the trademark issue, I believe we all were in favor of US registration, with the suggestion to reach out to Conservancy for advise on worldwide protections
ibennetch: ruleant: good point
ibennetch: And I'd add perhaps also see what Conservancy thinks about .com and .org
ibennetch: I suspect these are common problems across many of their projects, so they probably have some advice
ruleant: ok, I'll add it to the report
ibennetch: By the way, thanks for taking over with running the meeting since I got held up
ruleant: no problem, you can do it next time...