link to John Shipman's Tkinter 8.5 documentation fails: website no longer available

[xameridu]

BPO	37149
Nosy	@terryjreedy, @larryhastings, @benjaminp, @ned-deily, @roseman, @ambv, @serhiy-storchaka, @csabella, @miss-islington, @tirkarthi, @E-Paine
PRs	bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference  #14616 [3.8] bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616) #14617 [3.7] bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616) #14618 [2.7] bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616) #14619 [2.7] bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616) #14620 bpo-37149: Change Shipman tkinter link from archive.org to TkDocs #22188 [3.9] bpo-37149: Change Shipman tkinter link from archive.org to TkDocs (GH-22188) #22192 [3.8] bpo-37149: Change Shipman tkinter link from archive.org to TkDocs (GH-22188) #22193

^{Note: these values reflect the state of the issue at the time it was migrated and might not reflect the current state.}

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GitHub fields:

assignee = None
closed_at = <Date 2020-09-14.04:33:48.982>
created_at = <Date 2019-06-04.11:59:26.751>
labels = ['3.8', 'expert-tkinter', '3.9', '3.10', 'docs']
title = "link to John Shipman's Tkinter 8.5 documentation fails: website no longer available"
updated_at = <Date 2020-09-14.04:33:48.980>
user = 'https://bugs.python.org/xameridu'

bugs.python.org fields:

activity = <Date 2020-09-14.04:33:48.980>
actor = 'ned.deily'
assignee = 'docs@python'
closed = True
closed_date = <Date 2020-09-14.04:33:48.982>
closer = 'ned.deily'
components = ['Documentation', 'Tkinter']
creation = <Date 2019-06-04.11:59:26.751>
creator = 'xameridu'
dependencies = []
files = []
hgrepos = []
issue_num = 37149
keywords = ['patch']
message_count = 25.0
messages = ['344549', '344551', '344553', '344719', '344725', '344727', '347422', '347423', '347424', '347425', '347426', '347427', '347501', '347503', '347512', '347514', '371636', '375966', '375981', '376013', '376691', '376692', '376693', '376694', '376863']
nosy_count = 13.0
nosy_names = ['terry.reedy', 'larry', 'benjamin.peterson', 'ned.deily', 'markroseman', 'docs@python', 'lukasz.langa', 'serhiy.storchaka', 'cheryl.sabella', 'miss-islington', 'xtreak', 'xameridu', 'epaine']
pr_nums = ['14616', '14617', '14618', '14619', '14620', '22188', '22192', '22193']
priority = None
resolution = 'fixed'
stage = 'resolved'
status = 'closed'
superseder = None
type = None
url = 'https://bugs.python.org/issue37149'
versions = ['Python 3.8', 'Python 3.9', 'Python 3.10']

[xameridu]

On the page https://docs.python.org/3/library/tkinter.html
there is a link to "Tkinter reference: a GUI for Python" which is "https://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/pubs/tkinter/web/index.html".

BIG PROBLEM : Since several days this link doesn't work any more !!!

It's really important to fix it because most of official online documentation about tkinter was provided by this way !!!

Fortunately i have a copy of the documentation (cf pdf file). I have downloaded this file thanks to the website above just before the link was failed ! (Yes, i know, i'm lucky...)

Unfortunately I can't send you this pdf because I have a message "request entity too large" :-(

[tirkarthi]

A copy of the URL is present in archive.org [0] . Perhaps the docs could be updated with it.

[0] https://web.archive.org/web/20190524140835/https://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/pubs/tkinter/web/index.html

[xameridu]

The comment of Karthikeyan Singaravelan seems to be a good idea.

Question : is it possible to send a pdf (2.08 MB) to the python tracker ?

[csabella]

This reference was hosted at a university called New Mexico Tech. I've been trying to determine if this server is just offline or if it's being sunsetted. Many google search results still point to infohost.mnt.edu or redirect to that page (not just the tkinter link). Also, their main webpage (www.nmt.edu) also has a search that redirects results to infohost, so those links are all broken as well.

It seems to me that they just haven't stood up the new site yet or else they haven't changed their redirect, so I would assume that once they find they have broken links, they will fix this. However, I also found an article that the creator of the tkinter docs has passed away [1]. If the infohost subdomain was his, then they might be moving all of it.

Anyway, I think we should leave the docs as they are for now with the hope they the university will fix the redirect. If it doesn't get resolved, then we probably need to reach out to them. Since the author is deceased, I'm not sure how it would work to try to host it somewhere else. It would be a shame to lose this valuable reference and work.

[1] https://www.nmt.edu/news/2019/nmt_dedicates_shipman_plaque.php

[xameridu]

I have read Cheryl Sabella's comment. So I have sent this e-mail :

Objet: Request about a broken link on your website.
Date: 2019-06-05 16:20
De: xavier@guilloux-fr.net
À: thomas.guengerich@nmt.edu, webmaster@nmt.edu, help@nmt.edu

Hello,

For several days the link "https://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/pubs/tkinter/web/index.html" has stopped working. But this link provided access to a prodigious technical documentation related to a Python language module (tkinter).

Can you put this link back in working order (or place a redirect to the new link)?

I draw your attention to the fact that this documentation contributes significantly to the international recognition of your university.

Thanks a lot for the continuation that you will give to this request.

Regards.

Xavier Guilloux.

(following is the same message but in my natural language - French -)

Bonjour,

Depuis plusieurs jours le lien "https://infohost.nmt.edu/tcc/help/pubs/tkinter/web/index.html" ne fonctionne plus. Or ce lien permettait d'accéder à une prodigieuse documentation technique en rapport avec un module du langage Python (tkinter).

Pouvez-vous remettre ce lien en état de fonctionnement (ou placer une redirection vers le nouveau lien) ?

J'attire votre attention sur le fait que cette documentation contribue de manière importante à la reconnaissance internationale de votre université.

Merci par avance pour la suite que vous donnerez à cette requête.

Cordialement.

Xavier Guilloux.

[xameridu]

I have received the answer :

Objet: Re: Request about a broken link on your website.
Date: 2019-06-05 16:39
De: New Mexico Tech <help@nmt.edu>
À: xavier@guilloux-fr.net
Cc: thomas.guengerich@nmt.edu, webmaster@nmt.edu

Hello,
Unfortunately infohost.nmt.edu has been shut down and we will no longer be supporting that website. The website will not be coming back up. Sorry for the inconvenience.

-Dorothy

ITC-UC
NMIMT
Socorro, NM 87801
575-835-5700

[terryjreedy]

New changeset 45bc61b by Terry Jan Reedy in branch 'master':
bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616)
45bc61b

[miss-islington]

New changeset d2c5677 by Miss Islington (bot) in branch '3.7':
bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616)
d2c5677

[miss-islington]

New changeset ea9c8ca by Miss Islington (bot) in branch '3.8':
bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616)
ea9c8ca

[terryjreedy]

Ned, PR-14616 replaces a dead link to the most important online Tkinter reference. Please consider cherry-picking the 3.7 backport (already merged) into the upcoming 3.7.4. Many people are lost without the reference, as they find reading the tcl/tk reference much harder. (The question has come up on Stackoverflow also.)

I checked that the new link in the rebuilt revised page works.

The longer term solution is a complete in-house doc. I have some ideas, which I will share later, for something more compact than the Shipman work (168 pages for the pdf).

Ned, a separate question is whether the link fix or a local replacement can be backported to 3.6. It is like having half the tkinter doc, the part covering tk widgets, removed.

[terryjreedy]

The 2.7 backport shows a clean 2.7 diff, Travis merged and passed it, but required Appveyor just says 'non-mergeable' with no details, and no way to discover why or to cleanly retry. I will try close and open once.

[miss-islington]

New changeset 55270d0 by Miss Islington (bot) in branch '2.7':
bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616)
55270d0

[ned-deily]

New changeset 317c33e by Ned Deily in branch '3.6':
bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616)
317c33e

[terryjreedy]

Larry, I have the same request of you that I did for Ned. Please backport PR-14616 to 3.5. It replaces a dead link to the most important online Tkinter reference. Many people are lost without the reference, as they find reading the tcl/tk reference much harder. It is like having half the tkinter doc, the part covering tk widgets, removed. (The question has come up on Stackoverflow also.) The replacement will benefit any 3.5 users looking at the online 3.5 docs.

[ned-deily]

New changeset f2cbf41 by Ned Deily (Miss Islington (bot)) in branch '3.7':
bpo-37149: Replace dead link for online Tkinter reference (GH-14616)
f2cbf41

[ned-deily]

A few comments on this. One, the Tkinter documentation in question seems to have been a personal project of John Shipman at New Mexico Tech and, as such, was not "official" so I've updated the issue title accordingly. Sadly, as Cheryl noted, John died two years ago and I guess there were no plans in place for someone to take the documentation over from him. We can all appreciate his very valuable contributions over the years by developing and maintaining this additional documentation. It would be great to find a way to provide an equivalent resource for Tk 8.6. The best alternatives today is probably Mark Roseman's TkDocs website and "Modern Tkinter" book/ebook, both also already linked on our Standard Library tkinter page. I've nosied Mark in case he has any thoughts on the matter.

As far as updating the page in older releases, as 3.6 release manager I did decide to allow the update there, even though we normally would not make such a change for a security-fix-only release; I did so as we are still including 3.6 in our daily doc builds on docs.python.org (although at some point soon that will stop). It's Larry's call about 3.5 but note that the current 3.5 docs on docs.python.org are normally only updated when a new 3.5.x security-fix release appears. If you want it to be considered for 3.5, it would be best to make a 3.5 backport PR.

[E-Paine]

I know I'm a bit late, but I believe the site is now being hosted on a Gtihub page:
https://anzeljg.github.io/rin2/book2/2405/docs/tkinter/index.html

I suspect this is another personal project just for historical reference and will not be updated, however I would (personally) prefer not to be linked to the Wayback Machine.

[roseman]

Hello, also (very) late to this party.

If this would be useful, and unless anyone has any objections, I'd be open to hosting a copy of John's material on tkdocs.com. I'd add a header to each page explaining it's an unmaintained archive with all the usual caveats.

That would at least provide a stable place to link to.

[terryjreedy]

Pending improving the our docs, I would like to replace the Archive link, which is slow to respond. Issue: there is no copyright notice. Once might expect it to belong to NMT, but they seem to have disowned it by removing the web pages. The dead links should be removed from any copy. The .pdf line in the does work at this moment.

If not a work-for-hire, the copyright belonged to Shipman, and now his estate. I would not add it to the PSF site without formal permission, but I don't see why linking to one unauthorized copy versus another would make much difference.

[roseman]

I've posted a copy at https://tkdocs.com/shipman/

I've lightly modified it to add a site header and explanation of where the material comes from and caveats about age to each page, and have removed or crossed out dead links, requests for feedback, etc.

I agree with Terry's assessment of the copyright issues. While I don't expect anyone with a valid claim to contact me about the mirrored copy, I'd be happy to address any concerns if they do arise.

If this all seems okay, I would very greatly appreciate if someone could update the links in the Python documentation for all the relevant branches and shepherd that through the approval process.

[terryjreedy]

New changeset 06d0b8b by Mark Roseman in branch 'master':
bpo-37149: Change Shipman tkinter link from archive.org to TkDocs (GH-22188)
06d0b8b

[miss-islington]

New changeset 1b4bdb4 by Miss Islington (bot) in branch '3.9':
bpo-37149: Change Shipman tkinter link from archive.org to TkDocs (GH-22188)
1b4bdb4

[terryjreedy]

New changeset 8a30bdd by Miss Islington (bot) in branch '3.8':
bpo-37149: Change Shipman tkinter link from archive.org to TkDocs (GH-22188) (bpo-22193)
8a30bdd

[terryjreedy]

The tkdocs pages load in less than a second rather than in several seconds, have the obsolete link lined out, and include a short explanatory note. So I made the replacement.

Ned, please backport to 3.7 and 3.6 if still built nightly.

[ned-deily]

In general, we do not backport documentation changes to branches in the security-fix phase of their life cycles and their online versions are only updated for a release.